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Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:01 am
by Guyett
In post 74, RachMarie wrote:Umm Ray? IV is not an alt. I was in his first game on site (Newbie 1222) I replaced in as the cop. He almost got lynched in that game for being a bit of a VI and especially for not hammering Elmo Teh Azn when he was on shortly before deadline. I have had him in other games including one I modded.

You really think I got scum two rolls in a row?
:igmeou:


One thing we need to do in this game is kick it in gear the level of activity is atrocious.
Dat WIFOM

this is a separate game so the odds are the same.

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:06 am
by RachMarie
Arc why are you more suspicious of Singer? And of Guyett? Why would it not be odd that you did not cast an RVS? Why do you consider it scummy pushing a mislynch instead of town paranoia on the part of one or both of them?


PEDIT

LOL Guyett. My point though it for two games in a row it becomes 2/9ths of 2/9ths which is very small indeed.

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:12 am
by Guyett
odds on you rolling scum are exact same as rolling scum in the last game.

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:28 am
by ObsessedWithCats
Statistics care not whether you were scum last time, you're just as likely to roll scum this time as anyone.

It seems it's internet as usual for me now.

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 8:41 am
by Nobody Special
Votecount 1.04

ArcAngel9 - 3 - ChaosOmega, singersigner, Guyett
RayFrost - 2 - RachMarie, ObsessedWithCats
singersigner - 2 - innocentvillager, ArcAngel9
RachMarie - 1 - RayFrost

Not Voting: Evil Regals

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2013-10-17 14:21:42)

V/LA: ...

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 9:24 am
by singersigner
unvote

In post 71, ArcAngel9 wrote:Prod received. Sorry mod for stalling.. .been bit busy..

and about game.....
Holy shit.. So when i ask to explain about a wagon? How does that become so scummy?
that was just simple question... if that was clear RVS, all anyone needed to say it is ..RVS or if that is reaction for me being bored to do RVS, why? Am I not allowed to be bored of RVS. How silly to say that someone is scummy for that?

I feel very very odd about singers reaction to my wagon and so is Guyett....
Singer goes first...
VOTE: Singer
What about my reaction? You focused a lot on the fact that people called you scummy for your reaction...was my reaction more scummy than those who accused you of being scummy?
In post 74, RachMarie wrote:Umm Ray? IV is not an alt. I was in his first game on site (Newbie 1222) I replaced in as the cop. He almost got lynched in that game for being a bit of a VI and especially for not hammering Elmo Teh Azn when he was on shortly before deadline. I have had him in other games including one I modded.

You really think I got scum two rolls in a row? :igmeou:


One thing we need to do in this game is kick it in gear the level of activity is atrocious.
This is now the second time you've commented on the activity level after two consecutive prods. This seems like you're pointing out something easy for the sake of pointing something out to look more town.

vote: RachMarie

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:05 am
by ArcAngel9
In post 50, RayFrost wrote:Guyett's reasoning is basically "pressure vote" - guyett seems slightly town for it, singer is probably town, omega is neutral, RMarie's reactions are neutral, and your reaction is townish.
this post sounds like you're bit supporting his vote. Why does anyone need a pressure vote on page1? what is the need of it. Guyett is either derping or he honestly thought he could just lay down his vote on me and sit back...

In post 51, Guyett wrote:
In post 49, ObsessedWithCats wrote:Thinking about it I don't think ArcAngel's reaction is as scummy coming from her as it it would be from a lot of other people - I'd probably expect that reaction or similar from ArcAngel regardless of alignment. That makes Guyett's pressure vote look a bit off.
So you are basing the reaction as town coming from AA9 but it would look scummy from others and then think my reasoning is off due to the fact I don't know her Meta?
Are you for real?
You played last game with me.. didn't i say Ray was cop, you're town? Evil is town? Rach is scum?... if you really want to know about my meta.. Go and check my wiki page, there are plenty games you could refer and will show what is my town play.

In post 72, Evil Regals wrote:
In post 71, ArcAngel9 wrote:Prod received. Sorry mod for stalling.. .been bit busy..

and about game.....
Holy shit.. So when i ask to explain about a wagon? How does that become so scummy?
that was just simple question... if that was clear RVS, all anyone needed to say it is ..RVS or if that is reaction for me being bored to do RVS, why? Am I not allowed to be bored of RVS. How silly to say that someone is scummy for that?

I feel very very odd about singers reaction to my wagon and so is Guyett....
Singer goes first...
VOTE: Singer
You make me a sad, sad queen.

Now see. Here's what happened. You asking made me lean really town on you because of something meta I have on you, BUT then you decided to lurk/get busy/etc. Which tainted that read on you. Which makes me conflicted because there's a scum game where you lurked to no end and prod dodged the entire game til you were shot. ;-;

I also don't like this vote onto the Singer wagon.

UNVOTE: Singer
My vote on Singer is a testing on... its not real and you will know it soon. And you can relax.. I am town. And I am leaning town on you too.
I have been quite inactive since monday, I haven't been posting much in jacob's game too.. you're in that game with me.. you would know this better than anyone.

In post 73, Guyett wrote:
In post 67, singersigner wrote:
In post 27, Guyett wrote:VOTE: aa9
Why are you concerned with rvs votes?
Did you take it as genuine concern? Serious question.
Sure it could have been a joke... or it could have been someone concerned of their image
make up your mind Guyett, you mentioned that you're getting game out of RVS by pressuring me and now your twisting your statements. Doesn't feel right to me....

In post 76, RachMarie wrote:Arc why are you more suspicious of Singer? And of Guyett? Why would it not be odd that you did not cast an RVS? Why do you consider it scummy pushing a mislynch instead of town paranoia on the part of one or both of them?


LOL Guyett. My point though it for two games in a row it becomes 2/9ths of 2/9ths which is very small indeed.
didn't I already answered this question when you asked me at first time..? I was just bored to do RVS, I wasn't paranoid.
I wanted to know the reactions of the people who wagoned up on me becuz i was interested in RVS. I am town, so it is pretty obviousy one scum would happily laid back their vote in my early wagon with no pressure and labeled it as.."pressure or whatsoever"

In post 80, singersigner wrote:
unvote

In post 71, ArcAngel9 wrote:Prod received. Sorry mod for stalling.. .been bit busy..

and about game.....
Holy shit.. So when i ask to explain about a wagon? How does that become so scummy?
that was just simple question... if that was clear RVS, all anyone needed to say it is ..RVS or if that is reaction for me being bored to do RVS, why? Am I not allowed to be bored of RVS. How silly to say that someone is scummy for that?

I feel very very odd about singers reaction to my wagon and so is Guyett....
Singer goes first...
VOTE: Singer
What about my reaction? You focused a lot on the fact that people called you scummy for your reaction...was my reaction more scummy than those who accused you of being scummy?
my vote was on you is a reaction test, i assumed that if you're scum you will find your reasons to push my wagon but actuall you didn't that's making me to see you bit townie. so chill...

ATM, i am more concerned about Guyett and Ray alot
if you anyone have noticed Ray's play now.. it is bit different from his last one.. His reasonings and logics were pretty subjective and very helpful, he managed to read tweekz as town even when he did slipped multiple times and made errors..i don't see that honesty in his posts anymore and his defense on guyett case is very scummy

I am leaning scum on both of these players..

VOTE: Ray

Posted: Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:21 am
by Guyett
I don't care about your meta for the time being. I just thought at the time that your reaction seemed a bit off. I did play with you last game but only for a short while, I think I have played one other game but I don't really remember much about it. I think I'm going to base my ideas off how people play for now rather than trusting meta.
That being said I like post 81 so for now I'm gonna
UNVOTE:

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:26 am
by singersigner
In post 76, RachMarie wrote:Arc why are you more suspicious of Singer? And of Guyett? Why would it not be odd that you did not cast an RVS? Why do you consider it scummy pushing a mislynch instead of town paranoia on the part of one or both of them?


PEDIT

LOL Guyett. My point though it for two games in a row it becomes 2/9ths of 2/9ths which is very small indeed.
So I wanted to point out this post again. I'd like to see if anyone can see what I find scummy about it before I comment on it, since I only just caught it.

RachMarie, can you describe your play-style to me? For example, I would describe mine as inquisitive until I find something to latch on to, and then become really aggressive about pushing something once I reach a conclusion about it (when it's a lynch, or to save some I feel is town).

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:32 am
by RayFrost
Prod dodge, it's past 1 am if i make a post it won't be fully coherent so you'll get one tomorrow sometime

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:10 am
by Nobody Special
innocentvillager has been prodded.

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:59 am
by ChaosOmega
Prod dodge, will have something by tomorrow.

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:41 am
by RachMarie
My style is mainly a logical case one. I tend not to be super aggressive especially on Day 1. I try to look for patterns. I am often low hanging fruit, especially when RL is keeping me busy as it has lately. Usually if I am mislynched, at least one of the scum is on my wagon. (when there are only two like in this setup its just one). There have been exceptions such as in Diffusion of Power when I claimed N 1 Doc and got lynched anyways.

Part of why I was pushing for activity and asking questions is because at this point I really do not have enough to go on to make a full set of reads. It always takes me a while to sort everyone out and the pace of this game has not helped.

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:42 am
by RachMarie
EBWOP

In Diffusion of Power I was lynched by 7 townies I meant.

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:00 pm
by singersigner
Do you think you have time for this game? It seems rather hypocritical that you're pushing for activity "to gain reads" when you yourself haven't given us the same privilege of being able to read you in the same way. What do you think about archangel's latest post, for example?

How do you feel about your argument about statistics being wrong, or that you played a huge wifom card by mentioning it? How would you react to someone who did the same?

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 1:07 pm
by RachMarie
I will grant that math is NOT my best subject, I can see how peeps would see it as a WIFOM card (even though I have pointed it out regarding other people not just myself.)

It is feeling a bit like town Arc actually. She tends to be a lot more feisty as town, and more logical and laid back when scum. Her case on Ray has some merit and is an actual case.

Singer do you really think she is scum just because she voted you? What about the fact she has switched over now to Ray? What is your opinion of Ray?

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:00 pm
by singersigner
Uh, I never thought nor said she was scum? I actually have no opinion on Ray yet and haven't read anyone but you, Arch, and Chaos so far.

Also merit+"actual case"=logic...or at least to me it does. So that sounds a bit contradictory to me. Can you clarify?

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:33 pm
by innocentvillager
In post 76, RachMarie wrote:Arc why are you more suspicious of Singer? And of Guyett? Why would it not be odd that you did not cast an RVS? Why do you consider it scummy pushing a mislynch instead of town paranoia on the part of one or both of them?


PEDIT

LOL Guyett. My point though it for two games in a row it becomes 2/9ths of 2/9ths which is very small indeed.
Are you trolling or what

Having played like 131290518290518294 mafia games shouldn't you know probability of getting scum for any game is the same? That previous game already happened.

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:36 pm
by RachMarie
In post 81, ArcAngel9 wrote:

ATM, i am more concerned about Guyett and Ray alot
if you anyone have noticed Ray's play now..
it is bit different from his last one.. His reasonings and logics were pretty subjective and very helpful, he managed to read tweekz as town even when he did slipped multiple times and made errors..i don't see that honesty in his posts anymore and his defense on guyett case is very scummy


I am leaning scum on both of these players..

VOTE: Ray

(cut most of it out to reduce post size This is the part I was talking about. If you look at what she is saying here, it looks very much like reasoning and scumhunting.

Basically

Ray is not posting the way he did in the other game. Nor as he did in N 1206 for that matter.

It is not the amount of posting, because I am aware he has a lot going on in RL so not a ton of time to post, however if you look at his posts in round 1 where he was town, he was helpful, pushed activity, relaxed and even if he made a mistake he was quite willing to recognize it. You are not seeing that here in this game.

I would like a bit more before I am willing to vote for him, but it is diconcerting and I can see why she is voting for him.

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:40 pm
by RachMarie
Hey IV got anything to add of substance? Besides going on about how many games I have played and meh you exaggerated just a tad there :P

Not trolling, trying to get a handle on who is town and who is scum which is not an easy thing to do with peeps not posting stuffs.

Yes in any ONE game your odds are 2/9ths chance of of getting scum. And each game is independent, however the odds of getting scum 2 times in a row or say 5 times in a row is pretty astronomical. Which is why it is so odd I get Doc so much. (No that is not a claim or a crumb), just a statement of fact.

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:05 pm
by singersigner
Were you actually defending yourself with that statement, though? Because you're talking about completely different odds here. The one that's relevant to your alignment this game is the only one that matters, and not the one you're using.

You can calculate the odds one being scum in two consecutive games, but being scum in the first game does not affect the possibility of you being scum in the second.

I really don't even like that you're using this argument. Also, can you point out where I said archangel was scum?

Posted: Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:21 pm
by Evil Regals
In post 75, Guyett wrote:
In post 74, RachMarie wrote:Umm Ray? IV is not an alt. I was in his first game on site (Newbie 1222) I replaced in as the cop. He almost got lynched in that game for being a bit of a VI and especially for not hammering Elmo Teh Azn when he was on shortly before deadline. I have had him in other games including one I modded.

You really think I got scum two rolls in a row?
:igmeou:


One thing we need to do in this game is kick it in gear the level of activity is atrocious.
Dat WIFOM

this is a separate game so the odds are the same.
In post 76, RachMarie wrote:Arc why are you more suspicious of Singer? And of Guyett? Why would it not be odd that you did not cast an RVS? Why do you consider it scummy pushing a mislynch instead of town paranoia on the part of one or both of them?


PEDIT

LOL Guyett. My point though it for two games in a row it becomes 2/9ths of 2/9ths which is very small indeed.
In post 77, Guyett wrote:odds on you rolling scum are exact same as rolling scum in the last game.
You can roll scum in back to back. There's no odds it's luck or chance. You CAN roll scum twice in a row. I don't really know why you are saying this unless you were tryin to keep eyes off you.

~

Singer other than Rach & Arc -- do you have thoughts on other players?

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:41 am
by ObsessedWithCats
I'd like to note my vote on RayFrost has gone from RVS to serious vote. As town I've seen Ray to be a helpful player who gives detailed explanations while somewhat aggressively pursuing queries he has of other players and concisely and clearly answering questions aimed at himself. I think the change of attitude in this game could very easily be beyond apathy due to the reroll or a lack of time. He's been much vaguer than usual, made comments irrelevant to the game and is generally coming across quite differently than games in which he was town.

I'd rather have a better reason than this, but since everyone's been so quiet (I'm hardly innocent in that myself, and it's a self perpetuating problem) I've been reduced to considering who's changed since the last game and checking their old games to make sure this is the anomalous game and not the original 1425. RayFrost stands out as having had a significant change of attitude, so my vote on him stays.

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:44 am
by Guyett
Ray's play is certainly different here than last time, does anyone have any links to scum ray games?

Posted: Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:30 am
by RayFrost
Hi guys, I'm here now. I am actually not much one for being in games from the start (I prefer to replace in or have replace-in style situations, like waking up to find a game has started and has 5+ pages). That and a reroll and such, it's really a pain in the ass for me because I have a difficult time finding momentum. That said, my vote on RMarie
is
a serious vote. Singer seems to see it too, but I'll just get into why a bit later. This post will be a tad bit stream of consciousness. And I'm not in the mood to edit it after I've written things.

First:

The two reasons behind arcangel's vote for me are "defending guyett's vote" and "not being the same as last game." I've partially answered the second one, but I'll say it a bit differently here.

It is not the same game.
I will not play the same every damn game I'm in. I'm not a machine that constantly spews towniness out of its mechanical depository units. I'm a person, I have moods, I change how I play based on the situations I'm in, etc, etc.

Last game, I had replaced into the following situation: I was cop. I had the guy I replaced
claim cop in the first two pages of the game
. My role was heavily suspect and only given leave to live because of the cop claim. I had to come in,
discredit the claim
and still find a way to make sure that you guys would listen to what I had to say instead of just stringing me up. The best way to do that is to counteract proper play as cop and make myself the most aggressive, dominating, and guiding force in the game. Why? Because being the strongest voice makes getting people to ignore discrediting a predecessor easier. It relieves the suspicions on the slot.

Can you honestly say that everyone in this game is playing the same as last game? No. How can I say no so confidently? I see disparate posting styles from Regals (was a replacement last game - partial reason), ChaosOmega (was a replacement in the hot seat last game - partial reason), and RMarie (is busy now and was a replacement last game - partial reason).

The only reason you guys can find it simple to look at me is that I was
one of, if not the most, actively aggressive / present players in the game
.

Now, moving on to the other part:

I said explicitly that I
find guyett townish for his vote
. I'm not going to back down from this. Arcangel's reasoning here is basically a disagreement in the value of a pressure vote early on in the game.

Pressure = activity = discussion = furthering the game out of the random voting stage = promoting the finding of scum = winning the game. This is my logic.

Arcangel's logic as I see it is this: Pressure = just voting = not going to comment = reducing discussion levels by using it as an excuse to lurk = not furthering the game = deterring scumhunting = losing the game.

It's a disagreement where arcangel is on the moon from my point of view, but that's really a pure theory based argument which has no merit in terms of figuring out alignment. Potato potahto tomato tomahto

This ends the defense portion of my post. If you were looking for me talking about things other than defending myself and are too lazy to read the whole post, the rest of this is for you. There is no tl;dr because I am a snowman. Suck my tophat.


First, I'm going to go into things that bother me about RMarie:

The most obvious reason (one that singer has pointed out previously) is her consistent asking for people to be more active. She's taking the time to tell people to do more when she could alternatively take that time to instead...
actually do more
. She's avoiding providing content by telling people to provide content. There's some limitations to time based on being busy, but if you've got time to read the thread and make a series of posts about the lack of activity, then you have time to actually be active instead of active lurking.

This post is actually very uninformative. She goes from asking cats his opinion to giving what is literally the most uninformative opinion I have ever seen to making a flimsy-weak-at-the-knees-blows-over-when-a-kitten-farts excuse to read arc as slightly town. The uninformative opinion, if you don't see it, is "[M]y thoughts on this is that we are now out of RVS since we have a major wagon going." She has said "the rvs is over" - about as insightful as saying the sky is blue.

RMarie has spent the majority of her posts bemoaning the activity level, explaining her lack of activity, or asking people a list of questions without actually saying
anything
of her own opinion(s).

There's also a pretty stark contrast between what RMarie says is arcangel's meta and the reason she finds arcangel town. Arcangel is feisty and volatile is town and logical and less volatile as scum she says, arcangel is town because she's being logical and not volatile she says.

I'd also like to say that I take offense to this whole "unwilling to accept mistakes" thing. This game, I haven't really posted enough to make mistakes that I'd need to admit to having done.

RMarie's last post in this thread is severely hypocritical. She calls IV out for not providing substance when she hasn't actually given any of us a single straight opinion on anybody in this game except for the
slight
town read on arcangel (with reasoning that means she should read arcangel as scum instead). This is literally all of the substance she's really provided about her thoughts.

RMarie has devoted the majority of her time this game actively avoiding actually laying down her own opinion when she has clearly displayed enough time to do so. The only limiting factor in providing her opinions is her desire: she clearly is more invested in avoiding laying herself on the line to actually say who she thinks is scum or even just scummy than in finding scum. Ergo, she is scum.

The whole running odds for being scum thing is just pointless. Both sides are silly. RMarie is silly for bringing it up, the rest of you are silly for trying to harp on it as some great tell regarding her alignment. It's not. Just stop.