LUKE: Stupid monsters! You better keep out of my way!
TEAR: You're getting better at fending them off, Luke.
LUKE: Humph. I was just a little startled at first, that's all. I've been
training with Master Van. Those wimps are no match for me!
TEAR: Van...
LUKE: Huh? You say something?
TEAR: No, nothing. Let's go.
With 13 players alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch or no lynch.
Ms. Marangal (1): Minami no Hana (L-6)
Nachomamma8 (1): Tammy (L-6)
Kazekirimaru (1): Prohawk (L-6)
TheFuzzyLogic99 (4): Mac, orcinus_theoriginal, Kazekirimaru, Ms Marangal (L-3)
Not Voting (6): Deacon Blues, The Rufflig, Nachomamma8, TheFuzzyLogic, MafiaSSK, Pitoli,
Time Pool Left: 400 Hours Absolute deadline falls on Wednesday, December 18th, at 4PM GMT -7.
This is in (expired on 2013-12-18 16:00:00)
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:21 pm
by orcinus_theoriginal
Pedit okay so that was a misrep
Strangely I think that makes him more town
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:25 pm
by Kazekirimaru
I suppose the test I administered is flawed in the way that it assumes the player is engaged enough to actually read the fucking thread.
I have a feeling I won't be swaying any votes based on that alone. But regardless of the test, fuzzy looks like scum to me. Complete defensive stance and trying to garner support for scumKaze in oblique OMGUS fashion. Feels bad, man.
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:27 pm
by orcinus_theoriginal
Do you have any other reads kaze
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:33 pm
by Kazekirimaru
You're town
fferybork leans scum kinda maybe
Mac leans scum
I'm inclined to read Mara as town for reading people in a similar fashion
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 6:54 pm
by TheFuzzylogic99
@ Kaze
I guess you could be just tunneling..... I seen it happens
As far as being defensive... I guess I was a bit. Mainly frustrated bc I was being accused of being scum with very weak argument and people were buying it. Yes being defensive is one sign of possible scumdown. However Town can be defensive as well
@ Orcanis
I can see where you coming from... Honestly I do not feel I have been awkward except for my first post. Can you show where I was being awkward.
There no absolute...until a player flips however if you push someone as being scum as hard as Kaze did means that you believe that he/ she is scum beyond a reasonable doubt. To push with weak unreliable evidence makes a person suspect. i don't care if he was pushing on me or another player.
Can you give me a good reason why I should believe Kaze is town?
- He's played mafia elsewhere, this site was something of an adjustment
- He came under fire in that game, was at L-1 at one point on day 1
- His reactions to his accusers had some similarities in terms of how he pushed back, but he was pretty direct about his posts not being scummy
- he was callled out for being more experienced than he initially let on. He was indignant about it and insisted all he'd ever said was that it was his first game
at MS
- I wouldn't call his play passive aggressive in that game
- He was the N1K (the game was multiball - crosskill attempt?)
Spoiler: some example posts from this town game
In post 31, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:Thanks Krazy for trying to paint me scummy by totally misquoting me. ( Yes ,I am being sarcastic here...just in case somebody somehow is missing the obvious) What I said was that it was hard to know who is scummy on day 1 unless a mafia or werewolf player did something really dumb. Maybe you are hoping noone would go back and read my original post. Either you are an overanxious townie or scum. Either way I am keeping my eyes on you.
Snippy reaction to being misquoted.
In post 56, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:Spade , I do not understand your logic on how I am really scummy just because I posted two generic and newbie post at the beginning. If go by that logic the town would lynch newbies the first round every game. As that great philosopher Spock would say " You reasoning is quite illogical"
Not to mention the imaginary argument you insist me and me and Krazy were having, The fact is that I posted one thing about Krazy which was 100 % accurate. He did misquote me .He accused me of being scummy with bad if not scummy reasoning I called him on it .
theaceofspades wrote:fuzzy's posts (not there are a lot of them) irk me if he's not a noob. Because what do they add to the discussion?
To me. if all you can post is
"Well, some people are mafia, and some aren't, i hope we catch them, because if we don't that means we lose, cause we're town amiright?"
that's not a good town read. It's not enough for me to say anything definitively, but i'm leaning toward scum.
Actually it's funny to me. because the reasons I think krazy and fuzzy are the highest scum-dar trippers, is their reactions to posts about each other.
@Union. Twitching my radar sounds really bad if you say it with the wrong inflection.
You also say me and Krazy are scummy but unvote Krazy. Are you saying I am more scummier than Krazy. To be honest I am really really confused with your logic and actions. Maybe you can clear things up .
A defensive post, and contains some scumhunting as well.
In post 93, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:I honestly did not find anything in my last two post all that defensive. Like I said I was a bit annoyed but mostly just confused by Spade posts.
Spade has only one card that he is trying to use against me over and over again. It would be okay if what he said had some type of validity to it. If you look at his argument however it has none .Npr does it follow any rational logic. In retrospect I should of just ignored Spade since none of his argument has any validity. The truth is the only reason I look scummy because I keep responding to Spade posts in a somewhat aggressive manner. By doing so I have validated his argument I am scummy even with his weak argument.
Trumpet I am not offended... i am a bit fluffy. However I ask you ,Please dont hold my lack of dietary control against me
More defense. Humor shines through here and there.
In post 222, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:I feel like I am banging my fat head against a brick wall. Honestly all I want is a halfway reasonable answer to a pretty straight forward question. The only somewhat reasonable answer I got was from Krazy. I do appreciate his honest attempt to explain it to me
Super frustrated post, after repeated attempts to get people to explain why they thought he was scummy.
Its does not nessarilly means he is scummy but it might . Sometimes townies pulls the OMGUS card especially new townies.. Cant figure out yet if Satan is scum or just a nervous newbie. At this point it could go either way.
In post 124, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:@ Reese_ still getting use to reaction test. Have never seen them use before . I played occansionally but but itwas just for pure fun. Im trying to figure out if I realy believe you are doing a reaction test or just BSing saying you were to make yourself look good
Honestly I dont know what to make 2Pac-he has made very little real contribution as far as scum hunting. His going around asking people to sheep him as if he has good scum hunting credibility. His reads are purely OMGUS responsess. Everything about him says stuborn newbie but I cant ignore that his action are starting to seem scummy. He starting to act like a desperate scum trying to get a wagon.
@ Archie_ definently bad stratergy but the question is if just a bad townie or scum. You do make some good points but I am not quite sold . I think you need to make your case a bit stronger before you get me to vote for him.
In post 173, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:@Mr:Ree- You do see how much that your vote seem like retaliatory reaction for me accusing you right? Its almost a OMGUS vote . Its not as far I can understand the term from looking it up. Still You did not give any good reason for voting for me( except for me not liking your reaction test) . This is bad playing if not scummy behavior man. I hope you are scum because I hate to think someone of your skill can play so badly.
- Spelling and grammar seem worse when he's scum, but at the same time, it looks like he labors over posts a little more. They don't flow well, and sometimes it looks like he did a lot of copypaste or something.
- he downplays his experience a lot more - was just for fun, was a long time ago.
- Lynched day 3, not a bad run.
- Pretty assertive in this game
- Day 1 ended really early only 11 posts.
- He was the N1K.
Spoiler: some example posts from this town game
In post 98, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:TIT... how is asking experience not relevant..... this is a newbie game so I think it nice to know if someone is brand new to the game or brand new to the site. I like to know such things myself so it can help me judge a person action. You seem all over the place...are you trying to get yourself lynched bc that is what it seems like. Also not putting pressure on someone so early in the game could be just a playing style and have no relevance to alignment
I have to agree your argument for Wake lynch is weak. You seem trying awful hard to lynch Wake so early in the game with not very good evidence. Either you are tunneling or you are scum trying way to hard to lynch Wake.
In post 102, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:How is it out of place sense it was way at the beginning? I can see if he had posted it mid day how it is out of place but not how it is when it is early in day one. Even if it is odd that to me does not necessarily read scum. I do not think this is a good argument for Wake being scum.
Umm erratic behavior tends to get people lynch in my experience so I was wandering why you were acting the way you were.
Noted.... but just bc he says he does something and does not follow through does not mean necessarily mean he scum.
I disagree with you about scum hunting ... Not everyone scum-hunts so early in the game. In later play I can see this as a valid argument but the game just started late yesterday/ early today so its way too early in my opinion to make such claims
Um yelling Die Scum die at wake seems like tunneling behavior especially so early in the game. You seem pretty set on the idea and dont seem to accept the possibilities he might be town.
^^ This is arguing against a bandwagon. Much less hedgy looking
In post 104, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:Voting , unvoting and voting again could be a way to hide your motivations.Something scums has to do. While it is not totally scummy I would say it could be suspicious behavior. Guess I should of used suspicious instead of scummy. Anyways I thought it was something that needed a better explanation . Is that a satisfactory explanation?
This is a sort of walkback from a stronger stance, which is a good thing to compare some of his posts in this game since he's also walked back.
In post 172, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:@ wake -I almost tempted to lynch you wake bc your anti town behavior is hurting the town and I have no reason to believe that it will be destructive to the town later in the game ...plus you almost double dared me to lynch you. The problem is that Im not into policy lynching and Im pretty sure you are town ( I think TIT is prob town as well).
I doubt that scum would make such risky moves/actions. Still you said that you like to take risky gambits so I might have to think this over a bit more...
I admit I fell for whatever trap this was suppose to be.. I saw PM and was thinking inbox. However this does not mean I am scum it means I scanned your message quickly and than responded. Anyone could of done this. This seems like lazy scum hunting at best and a scum trying to get an easy lynch on a newer ( and percieved weaker player) at worst. So tell me which one of these is your attempt.
@ Ornicus
How is being awkward scummy. This is saying that townies cant awkward....This seems like a huge stretched.
This isn't as hedgy as the examples from the scum game above, but it is pretty defensive.
In post 60, TheFuzzylogic99 wrote:I dont know if Kaze is scummy....thats what I am trying to figure out. As far as his " attack" on me I dont find it nessarily scummy though I find it worth scrunity. I have been in
a couple game where scum have used my newness as way to get an easy lynch. This might not be the case but I think I should make sure.
In his two completed town games, he was not mislynched.
This is how I see it....if he is town than he set up a test that was weak in order to catch scum or at least try to look like he trying to catch scum. If he is scum he set up a trap to ensnare a townie. I can not see any other possibility. If there are I am willing to listen . I admit I might have a narrow perspective on this bc I am involved. Still I am not unwilling to listen for rational explanations.
second off I have played several games so I know all roles comes in in your inbox. This includes town roles , scum roles and third party roles. To say that that i am scum bc I answered his question without saying that town do not get their message in their inbox and not through PM is just ridiculous. Not to mention the thing about the blue townie. Than to push it as absolute fact that I scum bc of this is scummy. Maybe I dont have the experience of playing with Kaze to know if this is his norm but from my experience this seems very suspicious . I guess it is him pushing this idea more than the test to be scummy ....especially since the test results have been proven unreliable.
It does not seem he has much of a case so he pushing the idea that I am scum based on a test . it feels like he keep repeating the same thing over and over again hoping it will stick.
Also....
being awkward is not really a alignment sign as far as I can tell but I am willing to hear why you think so
@ The Mrs
Why do you think Kraze is town
Why do you think I am scum
Thank you
This also is not as hedgy looking as his scum game.
I guess you could be just tunneling..... I seen it happens
As far as being defensive... I guess I was a bit. Mainly frustrated bc I was being accused of being scum with very weak argument and people were buying it. Yes being defensive is one sign of possible scumdown. However Town can be defensive as well
@ Orcanis
I can see where you coming from... Honestly I do not feel I have been awkward except for my first post. Can you show where I was being awkward.
There no absolute...until a player flips however if you push someone as being scum as hard as Kaze did means that you believe that he/ she is scum beyond a reasonable doubt. To push with weak unreliable evidence makes a person suspect. i don't care if he was pushing on me or another player.
Can you give me a good reason why I should believe Kaze is town?
@ Deacon and Pitoli
Curious about your reads so far
I kinda like this post.
---
I was expecting to do this meta dive and come away thinking Fuzzy is scum. It didn't work out that way. I don't think his replies in this game have the oily, hedgy, insinuative feel that his scum game had.
I've included a lot of detail because I doubt most players will go through the ISOs the way I have.
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:22 pm
by Deacon Blues
In post 77, Kazekirimaru wrote:I suppose the test I administered is flawed in the way that it assumes the player is engaged enough to actually read the fucking thread.
I have a feeling I won't be swaying any votes based on that alone. But regardless of the test, fuzzy looks like scum to me. Complete defensive stance and trying to garner support for scumKaze in oblique OMGUS fashion. Feels bad, man.
I decided to give this as fair a hearing as I could, given how I feel about players who are basically lynchbait. I really can't see Fuzzy as scum based on what's in the thread so far.
My first reaction was to think "scum". But, I've been scum in several of our recent completed games together so maybe you've forgotten what town-me looks like. Or maybe town-me has changed.
I don't have enough data to read you yet.
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:31 pm
by Ms Marangal
Other than the Sangres games, we havn't had played town together, I don't think and in those games it was more reading nacho than reading you
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:35 pm
by Deacon Blues
In post 87, Ms Marangal wrote:Other than the Sangres games, we havn't had played town together, I don't think and in those games it was more reading nacho than reading you
We've played quite a few games. NY1964, Polygamy, Poetic Justice, Paradox Prime. At least a couple newbie games. The Morph the Cat games we played together were all scum. And so was the game where I hydra'd with Mala.
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:38 pm
by Ms Marangal
I was scum in all the newbie game we both played in
I was scum in the first polyg, I don't remember you playing in the second one >.>
hmmm
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:43 pm
by Ms Marangal
I had you read as scum in Paradox and at the end on NY
Cabd had to beat the scum-read out of me
at this point, I should have a good handle on how you are, as town but I don't.
I remember C telling me that you liked playing scum with him, (or maybe it was playing with him in general) and I don't think your scum game is as bad as you make it out to be.
Has Cabd made you a lover of scum, or do you still prefer town over everything?
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:45 pm
by Deacon Blues
You're thinking about games where we were BOTH town.
NY 1964, Paradox Prime. Kinda sorta Poetic Justice - I was 3rd party but cooperating fully with town while alive.
I don't think you were ever really sure about me in NY 1964. Might have even been scumreading me on day 7 or whenever it was we lynched bulba. I'm not sure how much of that was your read of me vs your read of mollie, though.
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 7:48 pm
by Deacon Blues
In post 90, Ms Marangal wrote:I had you read as scum in Paradox and at the end on NY
Cabd had to beat the scum-read out of me
at this point, I should have a good handle on how you are, as town but I don't.
I remember C telling me that you liked playing scum with him, (or maybe it was playing with him in general) and I don't think your scum game is as bad as you make it out to be.
Has Cabd made you a lover of scum, or do you still prefer town over everything?
Totally prefer town. I feel more competent when scum now (though that's very dependent on the player list), but I don't enjoy playing scum roles.
What is it that you like about 80, exactly? I personally really dislike it.
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 8:44 pm
by Kazekirimaru
Also, you say you find him to be town because his posts don't feel as hedgy this game, yeah? That's probably because he's spending so much time opining about his own play he hasn't really shifted his attention elsewhere. The only person he's casting any suspicion on is me, and most of his opinions have been akin to "I don't know if he's scummy."
How does that not sound hedgy to you, anyway?
And then there's the matter of his lack of scumhunting in general. Opining about his own play and all that I mentioned before. I really don't see how your ISO(though I appreciate that you took the time) absolves him of his scumminess.
What is it that you like about 80, exactly? I personally really dislike it.
Because it's an attempt at reasonableness through a heavy cloud of frustration. And that sentiment was running through many of his posts in the first game I linked. It makes for a really clear comparison to his scum game where his posts came off much more guarded and calculated (as well as hedgy as all hell). I had just finished reading through those three threads and writing up my thoughts about them, and came back to this thread to look at his posts in a comparative light. And there was that post sitting at the bottom of the thread, and it was a perfect, beautiful distillation of my impressions of his first town game, where he was run up to L-1 on day 1.
I do some level of meta-diving in nearly every game I play, though I'm trying to cut back because life is too short. This dive was the one in a hundred - the reason why I meta dive at all - where I come away feeling like I can bet the farm on my conclusion, even if I tell myself that I should be cautious.
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:01 pm
by Kazekirimaru
I suppose I just plain disagree.
It seems blatantly obvious to me that all of fuzzy's posts have been made with the express purpose of defending himself and not estranging any potential allies in the process. I think he's scum. And I'm starting to think I'm looking at scumffery, as well. I've seen you spin meta to make it look how you want- you did it to my posts in Newbie 1436 when we were scum. It's very solid-looking on the surface, but it all falls apart when you realize how much of it is subjective opinion and how it doesn't make sense when the individual posts are taken in context of their respective situations. I'm getting that same feeling here.
Comparing his past Scum meta to this game and giving him a pass for not being hedgy or calculated when he hasn't even taken stances(or lack of stances) on anyone yet just feels off. You're making comparisons where they're not applicable.
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:03 pm
by Deacon Blues
In post 94, Kazekirimaru wrote:Also, you say you find him to be town because his posts don't feel as hedgy this game, yeah? That's probably because he's spending so much time opining about his own play he hasn't really shifted his attention elsewhere. The only person he's casting any suspicion on is me, and most of his opinions have been akin to "I don't know if he's scummy."
How does that not sound hedgy to you, anyway?
And then there's the matter of his lack of scumhunting in general. Opining about his own play and all that I mentioned before. I really don't see how your ISO(though I appreciate that you took the time) absolves him of his scumminess.
I don't know what to tell you if you can't see the difference between his posts in that second ISO and the posts in this game. Or you can't see the similarities between the first ISO and this game.
It's about tone. It's about textual body language. I picked examples that I thought epitomized the differences in the threads so that I'd have some really sharp contrasts. I didn't expect this game to be a perfect match with any one game because player lists and game states and the phase of the moon and whatever drugs are in our water supplies, and mind control rays from Mars all impact the events in each game in different ways.
With all that, it's really clear to me which of those games matches his posts in this game most closely.
You're getting hung up in the stuff that is a baseline of how he communicates and not looking at the nuances.
I don't know how to teach someone to sift out the baseline from the nuances. I don't always get it right myself. But, sometimes it's 1 in 100. And this meta dive is one of those times IMO.
In post 61, pitoli wrote:No, I didn't like that test either, Kaze.
Why not?
Because it's totally possible someone wouldn't have thought "blue townie" was a literal description of the PM sitting in their inbox. I for one thought you were speaking figuratively so it's weird to me that you would jump on that and assume scum would try to be "in" on a role PM that could be easily verified by the OP.
In post 62, pitoli wrote:
And I didn't like this. Why not let Orci explain why you're town instead of running to the meta assumption?
That was to fferybork
Mmm yeah that's m'bad.
I am not surprised to see hedginess from a newbie. The part I don't like, however, is that Fuzzylogic seems to be repeating "you are observing X about me, and saying X is scummy. however, town can also do X" and yeah zzzzzzz
Posted: Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:12 pm
by Kazekirimaru
In post 98, pitoli wrote:
Because it's totally possible someone wouldn't have thought "blue townie" was a literal description of the PM sitting in their inbox. I for one thought you were speaking figuratively so it's weird to me that you would jump on that and assume scum would try to be "in" on a role PM that could be easily verified by the OP.
How is the role PM verified by the OP? I don't see any example role PMs, do you?
