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Post Post #75 (ISO) » Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:46 pm

Post by CultOfAthena »

In post 58, Jingle wrote: There's the repetition, with everything else snipped. Granted, I was most of the content in the thread at the time in one way or another, but it rubs me the wrong way. Having everything be about me and still not being on my wagon is pretty :igmeou:.
I don't really see those quotes as being strictly about you, more related to the conversation
around
you.
In post 66, Luca Blight wrote:It feels like you're reaching for something to scumread me for.
Why does Korts as scum feel the need to fabricate something just to scumread you?
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Post Post #76 (ISO) » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:38 am

Post by Korts »

Page 3 analysis incoming. I will respond to you as well in the next post, CoA.

Spoiler: Page 3 notes
Jingle's 50 is general responses to his ongoing threads. Some of it is documenting his meta-reads, which I don't find interesting whatsoever. He promises in the @Korts section to provide his perspective on Luca after I do, of which I will remind him in my next post. And he reeeally doesn't like Keychain's reluctance to vote him, which must be an argument I missed (and I don't understand why this would be answering for other people).

CoA's 51 highlights a really interesting Ray quote. The LAMIST accusation is later cleared, as Ray was responding to Jingle with the highlighted sentences, but the "I waited" line is still an interesting choice of words. In the rest of CoA's post, she asks me some questions (responses in the next post), and responds to Keychain. Makes an interesting point about Keychain not putting Jingle to L-1 to avoid the appearance of doing so, but I don't find this a strong indicator, as it can also still be just caution driving that decision. The Jingle wagon did move very fast.

Nice catch of CoA's miss by insanity in 52 (cleared by CoA in 54). Insanity's 53 calls out my non-committal posts, which they were, but, like, I'm not going to commit to panning out my thoughts every time I sit down to post.

I like Reck's 55. Ray's 56 just responds to people, much like I did - but he also needs to commit himself to meaningful analysis at some point. I hope he doesn't stall for long.

Reck's 61 is fair. insanity's 62 is good.

Luca 66-67 calls my case baseless, and tries to poke a hole in it, but fails to address my main point.

Jingle's 69 is playing coy with reads, but in a very weird and unsettling way to me. If this is indeed theater, I can't figure out what the intent is. It's signaling that he has a full and nuanced read on the game, but because it's anonymous, nobody can decide whether to agree or not. It's kinda like baiting, though I don't know what.


So, with all that behind me, here is where I stand with each of you:

Spoiler: Reads
town

insanity
- Insightful questions, meaningful responses, no cause for suspicion.
Reckoner
- 20, 21, and 55 were good posts. No cause for suspicion.
Jingle
- I don't like his meta-reading technique very much, and everything he does is overdone, but I read genuine intent in most of what he posts.
Aristophanes
- Pretty uninvolved so far. Hoping that changes.
CultofAthena
- I don't have a reliable read. Hoping that changes.
RayFrost
- Doesn't seem immersed in the game, 3 posts total. I have mixed feelings about the direction of some of his responses, and he is yet to provide much analysis. Hoping that changes.
Keychain
- Her ISO is also surprisingly sparse with 3 posts. I am not quite convinced by the case against her, but I see the points, and her lack of activity is hindering the progression of the discussion around it, so I'm putting her below Ray.
Luca Blight
- so far my only definite scumread. I have already laid out my case in 64.
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Post Post #77 (ISO) » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:40 am

Post by Korts »

Prompts and responses post.

Spoiler: @CultOfAthena
In post 51, CultOfAthena wrote:You already answered this question in 32. Did you feel there was something more to be said, or had you just forgotten?
You're right, I did. It slipped my mind at the time.
In post 51, CultOfAthena wrote:This is bad. Do you have nowhere else to place your vote? There's no reason to not have a vote in play at this stage in the game, or in any stage of the game really, barring LyLo.
Oh, please. I took my vote off someone I didn't want it on. When I figure out who I want it on, I place it there, like I have. There is no deadline, there is no rush. Settle down.

As for your "this is bad" spin, are you suggesting that me not voting is scummy, or just bad play? Either way, we need to have a conversation.


Spoiler: @Jingle
In post 50, Jingle wrote:I will give you my primary thought on Luca. He thinks I'm town. I'll probably explain further after your analysis.
I'm looking forward to it.


Spoiler: @Jingle, @Keychain
In post 50, Jingle wrote:At the risk of being accused of answering for other people again, I reeeally don't like Key's reluctance to vote me. Nor do I like the fact that it comes up in every part of 49.
I'm drawing a blank on why Key should be voting you. That said, I'm also drawing a blank on who Key is voting, and why. Can you guys both explain?
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Post Post #78 (ISO) » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:28 am

Post by Jingle »

In post 71, xRECKONERx wrote:You'll have to excuse me for not being satisfied having my gut twinge described away with self meta.
You're already excused.
In post 58, Jingle wrote:
xRECKONERx wrote: I do feel like, however, that my vote is probably fine staying on Jingle for the moment.
Me too.
More to the point, it's not that I'm handing waving away either of your concerns, but rather that I'm promising there's a point. I don't think that your gut scum read on me IS because I'm theatrical, because I'm always theatrical. I think your gut scumread on me has more to do with the underlying feeling behind the theatricality, that I'm working from a plan. I also think that once I explain said plan, much of your gut scumread will make a lot more sense to you. Speaking of:
In post 76, Korts wrote:Jingle - I don't like his meta-reading technique very much, and everything he does is overdone, but I read genuine intent in most of what he posts.
I have not made a single townmotivated post in this entire game with the exception of my vote on Ray Frost. The rest of that post wasn't townmotivated. I've intentionally been spewing nulltells left, right and center this entire game (which you've picked up on to at least some extent), and yet, for some reason I'm your third strongest townread because I read as genuine? When literally the rest of your reasoning regarding me is things that should be considered suspicious? I'm calling bullshit. The only reasons I'm not jumping up and down screaming from the rafters after your lynch right now is that I'm barely above your null reads, Luca is doing something very similar, and I have other suspicions I want to flesh out. Consider this a challenge to find where I come across as genuine.

In the same vein, my biggest concern with Luca is that he clearly thinks I'm town. He's been answering for me in a way that subtly suggests he's defending me without outright saying it, , which sets off all of my buddying alarms. He's been assuming he knows why I'm posting what I'm posting without considering alternatives, , which is a major red flag that he's not actually trying to work out my alignment. Generally, he thinks I'm town, and I think he should think I'm null. Especially at the top of page 2. I'd love an explanation as to what made you so sure I was town, Luca.
In post 77, Korts wrote:I'm drawing a blank on why Key should be voting you. That said, I'm also drawing a blank on who Key is voting, and why. Can you guys both explain?
Key is clearly dancing around a scumread on me, but isn't doing anything to further said read or put pressure on me. I'll go back and double check, but assuming she knows I like to be put to L-1 early and often as both alignments, the reasoning for that is spotty. Since she chose not to vote me, I explained that not voting at all is antitown she has sheeped insanity's case on CoA, but at the time was voting no one. Her response to being questioned was all about the activity surrounding me (not actually me specifically, as pointed out by CoA) and not at all about the case she finds compelling, or her own scumreads, or anything else. A pair of mitigating factors here are that most of the activity HAS been around me to some extent so far and she has been inactive, but I don't think that explains away all of it. Regardless, bigger fish to fry (and frankly, I'd like to see her get her sea legs under her and wow me.)

If anyone wants an in depth analysis of any individual posts, feel free to ask.

And, just to clear up any remaining confusion:

VOTE: RayFrost
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Post Post #79 (ISO) » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:55 pm

Post by insanity018 »

@Mod - in case this has been missed, the votecount at is still incorrect. I voted CultofAthena in


@CultofAthena
, I noticed that you are still voting Keychain. You first voted Keychain not because you thought they were scum but because you wanted to pressure them into responding (). Has this changed into a scumread? Given that Keychain has been absent from the thread regardless, is there anything else that's happened in the thread that you think worth pressuring?
In post 75, CultOfAthena wrote: Why does Korts as scum feel the need to fabricate something just to scumread you?
This is a horrible question. Isn't the entire point of this game that town are genuinely trying to scumhunt and scum are faking it?
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Post Post #80 (ISO) » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:55 pm

Post by insanity018 »

@Jingle
Your post above was mostly about your suspicions for Keychain and Luca Blight. So, why are you voting for RayFrost?
Key is clearly dancing around a scumread on me, but isn't doing anything to further said read or put pressure on me. I'll go back and double check, but assuming she knows I like to be put to L-1 early and often as both alignments, the reasoning for that is spotty.
Have you played with Keychain before for her to know this? Assuming she does know this, wouldn't Keychain!scum have been more likely to put you at L-1 for easy towncred?

--
@Korts

In post 68, Korts wrote:You have conveniently failed to address the biggest indicator: undermining my questions. My reading of everything else comes from that.
Can you point which posts in particular you think Luca has done this?

Spoiler: Is this the type of stuff you are referring to?
In post 25, Luca Blight wrote:
In post 17, Korts wrote:
Sigh. Jingle, if you're going to play the look-at-me-I'm-scum-but-scum-wouldn't-say-that reaction test game, let people weigh in and allow the situation to develop before you jump in with your grand analysis.


"Superficial" questioning, really? What exactly were you expecting in response? I asked you to confirm that yes, you are claiming a scumtell on yourself, which you did, and now you're shocked that your wagon took off. Pull your head out of yourself, dude.


By the way - if Reck's "probably town," why mention his lack of RVS vote? What does that indicate, exactly?
Bolded
- this is a good point.

Italics
- Your questioning was pointless as I stated above.

Underlined
- The fact I could answer this myself means this is probably another pointless question.


To me, it feels more like a reason why he thinks your question was superficial as opposed to undermining the question itself.

--
In post 72, Keychain wrote:I'm going to continue to be a wee bit scarce until the holiday period is done, sorry about that :-(

I'll be around later today.
Keychain
, I get that it's the holiday period but I would like to see more of your thoughts on the game. Apart from Athena, do you have any town or scum reads?
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Post Post #81 (ISO) » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:01 pm

Post by Jingle »

In post 80, insanity018 wrote:@Jingle Your post above was mostly about your suspicions for Keychain and Luca Blight
and Korts
. So, why are you voting for RayFrost?
Bolded mine.
In post 79, insanity018 wrote:This is a horrible question. Isn't the entire point of this game that town are genuinely trying to scumhunt and scum are faking it?
In post 80, insanity018 wrote:Have you played with Keychain before for her to know this? Assuming she does know this, wouldn't Keychain!scum have been more likely to put you at L-1 for easy towncred?
Have you read my posts?

Also, to follow up on this, in the game I referenced I did not discuss my personal preference for being at L-1 in the main thread. I did discuss the importance of L-1's to the efficacy of VCA, and the silliness of being unwilling to vote people to L-1 while maintaining an expectation of no quickhammers/hammers without claims in the main thread. Considering she thanked me for the advice I gave her in the scum PT and said it helped her win another game, I'm fairly certain she took the advice and theory crafting to heart.
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Post Post #82 (ISO) » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:20 am

Post by Aristophanes »

At this point in the game I don't really have any questions or comments but I do have reads forming. I can craft some stuff at some point, I just don't actually have much to say.
In post 69, Jingle wrote:
In post 60, Aristophanes wrote:I would actually be far more likely to do this as scum simply because it is an unlikely play btw.
Do you have any games you can link to to prove/provide evidence for this statement?
It's times like this i wish my Wiki were up to date.
*sigh*
One sec.

Actually, this would probably take way too long to find. If you will allow me to self-meta for a sec, I shall. Apologies in advance.
As town I am usually very worries about lolhammers. I have been burned by them too many times, even being on the receiving end on Page one once. It suchs and it really hurts town's chances even when scum is lynched by it! As scum, I have lolhammered or set up situations where it can be a possibility many times. The reason I prefer L-1 as scum over the actual lolhammer is because it has become almost a scumtell of mine as I can think of probably 5 distinct times when I lolhammered as scum, and I never EVER do it as town! Maybe once? But I don't even think so. That's part of what I mean by unexpected play.
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Post Post #83 (ISO) » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:19 am

Post by Lord Gurgi »

Day One continues. Five to lynch.

Vote Count


CultOfAthena
[10 Posts] (3) -
RayFrost, insanity018, Keychain

Korts
[10 Posts] (1) -
Luca Blight

xRECKONERx
[10 Posts] (1) -
Aristophanes

Jingle
[9 Posts] (1) -
xRECKONERx

Keychain
[10 Posts] (1) -
CultOfAthena

RayFrost
[10 Posts] (1) -
Jingle

Luca Blight
[10 Posts] (1) -
Korts

Aristophanes
[9 Posts] (0) -
None

insanity018
[8 Posts] (0) -
None


None
(0) -
None


Current Deadline:

None.

Impending Prods

Prods suspended.

Post Count Refresh:

(expired on 2018-01-01 00:00:01).

The previous Votecount has been amended.
(11:26:07 PM) thesheamuffin: I'm counting gurgi because I would probably make out with him if I were drunk enough
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Post Post #84 (ISO) » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:23 am

Post by Keychain »

Happy new year! It's almost 4:30am! :D

Korts, I'm voting CultOfAthena and I'm still happy with that after actually paying attention a wee bit more. Summary: her questions are generally superficial (like if someone states a read with nothing behind it she'll ask why but not really anything deeper, for example the questions insanity highlighted
In post 30, CultOfAthena wrote:
Also, Luca may be scum.
Mind explaining this?
In post 29, CultOfAthena wrote:
In post 24, insanity018 wrote:I am liking Reck for town at the moment. Townlean on Aristophanes as well.
Why do you think Aristo is town?
) - with the first one it looked like Jingle was baiting someone into asking about it but she didn't seem to show interest in that, and I haven't seen her form any reads off the information she's gotten. She picks at theory points that aren't really alignment indicative considering that she says she looking for genuineness but someone can genuinely believe their theory as town or scum
In post 37, CultOfAthena wrote: It does contribute something towards solving the game – I think that anyone going off of what Jingle said would be lead to false conclusions, so I pointed that out. What I was saying wasn't even mainly about Korts and Reck, it was about Jingle. I'm mainly looking to see how Jingle responds. If, for example, he continues to push his point and his reasoning doesn't feel genuine, that begs further questions about his motivations and why he might be pushing that narrative. If he responds and his thought process feels genuine, that indicates to me that he's probably town, even if I disagree with what he's saying – that kind of examinating of the game seems more likely to come from town than to be fabricated by scum, to me.
, and she doesn't follow through on things that she says are of interest to her such as "liking" Jingle for getting the game moving but then not really looking into the motivations behind why RayFrost might have been waiting - instead she focused on the fact that he stated it. She's also been very cagey with her own reads while insisting others explain theirs.

However it would have been nicer to direct that to Athena rather than indirectly attacking her like this, so Athena - I think I only saw the insanity townread explicitly stated, and that didn't seem to come from your questioning, so what reads have you formed through your style of questioning?
In addition, what do you think about RayFrost choosing to wait before getting involved? do you think it's more likely to come from town or scum, compared to Jingle's getting stuck in?
And the theory is an area where I think scum have the easiest time coming across genuine, as Jingle was explaining that he's done before as scum. You looking for genuineness there is pretty questionable to me.
You asked me two questions regarding considering your points meaningless pedantry and the superficiality of your questioning but I think I've answered both of them here, but feel free to restate them if I haven't. The other one was about L-1. I'm not so worried about the possibility of a quickhammer, especially not in this game, it's just personal preference. If a wagon is sizable, I'd rather my reads are a reasonable strength before I join it.

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, I've got a little puddle of people I'm not interested in lynching - you, Reck, Ari - a little puddle of people I am interested in lynching - Athena, Jingle, RayFrost - and a couple of people I'm just generally interested in and need to read more carefully - Korts, Luca.
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Post Post #85 (ISO) » Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:29 am

Post by Keychain »

Jingle quotes:

Keychain was in a game where she was my scumbuddy and watched me dance around the gallows convincingly for pretty much the entire time as one of if not her first scumgames before winning LYLO. It was, if it is not too arrogant of me to say so, one of the examples of my better scumgames. Thus, I assume she vastly overestimates my skill level and will be extremely wary of me regardless of her alignment, meaning she was unlikely to be ringleader to such a plan in this case, regardless of capability or inclination.
in made me laugh, I forgot to say. That was my first scumgame, yes. Also my first win!
There's the repetition, with everything else snipped. Granted, I was most of the content in the thread at the time in one way or another, but it rubs me the wrong way. Having everything be about me and still not being on my wagon is pretty :igmeou: .
The answers to each player were made complete in themselves, so yeah there was repetition. Just because there was something regarding you in every answer doesn't mean it was "all about you", it's because the answers required some mention of you. And that early in the game I'm never that keen on L-1, regardless of my read on the player, because reads need time to develop.
It feels like you're kicking up dirt over nothing here.
As of this point in the game, I have two fairly strong town reads, 3 fairly strong scumreads, and 2 leans scum reads. I am relatively certain that the 3 strong scum reads are not scum together (though I could easily see being right about 2/3). The last player sits just on the town side of the null town border, but is by no means a strong read. I believe both of my town reads are voting town, but am significantly less sure about one than the other. I am not willing to put names to any of these players at this time, but will be happy to when certain things resolve themselves.
not sure what the entire point of this paragraph is. So easy to retcon as scum, while being no use to town.
I have not made a single townmotivated post in this entire game with the exception of my vote on Ray Frost. The rest of that post wasn't townmotivated. I've intentionally been spewing nulltells left, right and center this entire game (which you've picked up on to at least some extent), and yet, for some reason I'm your third strongest townread because I read as genuine? When literally the rest of your reasoning regarding me is things that should be considered suspicious? I'm calling bullshit. The only reasons I'm not jumping up and down screaming from the rafters after your lynch right now is that I'm barely above your null reads, Luca is doing something very similar, and I have other suspicions I want to flesh out. Consider this a challenge to find where I come across as genuine.
Eh?
"spewing nulltells"? This paragraph puzzles me. Like having such a firm fixed idea of how other players should be perceiving you seems unlikely.

Key is clearly dancing around a scumread on me, but isn't doing anything to further said read or put pressure on me. I'll go back and double check, but assuming she knows I like to be put to L-1 early and often as both alignments, the reasoning for that is spotty. Since she chose not to vote me, I explained that not voting at all is antitown she has sheeped insanity's case on CoA, but at the time was voting no one. Her response to being questioned was all about the activity surrounding me (not actually me specifically, as pointed out by CoA) and not at all about the case she finds compelling, or her own scumreads, or anything else. A pair of mitigating factors here are that most of the activity HAS been around me to some extent so far and she has been inactive, but I don't think that explains away all of it. Regardless, bigger fish to fry (and frankly, I'd like to see her get her sea legs under her and wow me.)
If this is what you consider dancing, I'm saddened! I... did not know you like to be voted early, considering you replaced into the only game we've played together N1. Tbh I'm hard hearted and didn't really care. I don't like L-1 that early.
My vote was not due to you explaining that not voting at all is antitown. I didn't make an RVS vote because I found myself awkwardly caught between having a real vote I wanted to make and not wanting to make it because of the size of the wagon, so I didn't. But hey, when there was someone I wanted to vote, I was still happy to vote them, because not making an RVS vote does not somehow equal vote abstinence for the whole game.
My responses to being questioned were responses to the questions, so they involved things pertinent to the questions.

Oh, I'd love to wow you but we'll see how that goes, I do so much better when I'm not trying to impress. Mostly what I find kind of funny is that you're so upset about me "dancing around" a scumread on you without sealing it with a vote but you're equally dancing around one on me.

Also, to follow up on this, in the game I referenced I did not discuss my personal preference for being at L-1 in the main thread. I did discuss the importance of L-1's to the efficacy of VCA, and the silliness of being unwilling to vote people to L-1 while maintaining an expectation of no quickhammers/hammers without claims in the main thread. Considering she thanked me for the advice I gave her in the scum PT and said it helped her win another game, I'm fairly certain she took the advice and theory crafting to heart.

...
Yeah the advice in the scum PT was great and it has helped me improve, but the amount of absolute nonsense you were talking in the main thread meant anything you said there has not had the same kind of sticking effect so not sure why you'd assume I remembered it. I don't remember your VCA lecture, I'll go find it later probably maybe remind me if I forget.
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Post Post #86 (ISO) » Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:02 am

Post by Jingle »

In post 85, Keychain wrote:As of this point in the game, I have two fairly strong town reads, 3 fairly strong scumreads, and 2 leans scum reads. I am relatively certain that the 3 strong scum reads are not scum together (though I could easily see being right about 2/3). The last player sits just on the town side of the null town border, but is by no means a strong read. I believe both of my town reads are voting town, but am significantly less sure about one than the other. I am not willing to put names to any of these players at this time, but will be happy to when certain things resolve themselves.
not sure what the entire point of this paragraph is. So easy to retcon as scum, while being no use to town.
Not so easy as you'd think to retcon as scum. There's also no reason to want to retcon it as scum, as "my reads changed, but this is what they were" will always be closer to the truth and less suspicious. Mostly, I just want to see how people's pushes pan out without risking them sheeping me or letting my lack of giving a shit about their cases matter.
In post 85, Keychain wrote:
Jingle wrote:I have not made a single townmotivated post in this entire game with the exception of my vote on Ray Frost. The rest of that post wasn't townmotivated. I've intentionally been spewing nulltells left, right and center this entire game (which you've picked up on to at least some extent), and yet, for some reason I'm your third strongest townread because I read as genuine? When literally the rest of your reasoning regarding me is things that should be considered suspicious? I'm calling bullshit. The only reasons I'm not jumping up and down screaming from the rafters after your lynch right now is that I'm barely above your null reads, Luca is doing something very similar, and I have other suspicions I want to flesh out. Consider this a challenge to find where I come across as genuine.
Eh?
"spewing nulltells"? This paragraph puzzles me. Like having such a firm fixed idea of how other players should be perceiving you seems unlikely.
Is your issue with this that I shouldn't be aware of how other people will perceive me? Cause I am, a good 70% of the time, just as a matter of the style of play I have and the sheer number of games I've read. Is your issue that you see either Kort's or Luca's townreads on me as reasonable? If so, elaborate. Is your issue that you don't think I'm right about how I'm being treated there? If so, elaborate.

As far as nulltells, kicking us out of RVS is null. Arguing theory is null. Surface level scumhunting, the kind where I just say "Person X is scum" is null until there are flips to go with it. Withholding reads with a reason behind it is null.

As far as the theory bit, VCA, which is likely the strongest scumhunting tool we have this game, works best when many people hit L-1 early and often. Ari has just demonstrated in his post why lolhammers amongst experienced non-trolls (Read, the geriatric playerbase) are tantamount to scumclaims, so as long as you announce L-1, there's absolutely no fear associated with putting someone in that position other than the fear of justifying your vote later, which means either you think it's a justified vote and should make it or you don't and should not. I addressed this mostly when talking to Kam and Faraday (Not that one) about their reluctance to ever vote, but also when I replaced in and there was only really two wagons to analyze D1. And for what it's worth, I never intentionally lie about game theory in the R2R. Mislead? All the time. But anything I posted there that was game theory is either something I genuinely believe to be at least conditionally true.
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Post Post #87 (ISO) » Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:37 am

Post by Jingle »

In post 82, Aristophanes wrote:As town I am usually very worries about lolhammers. I have been burned by them too many times, even being on the receiving end on Page one once. It suchs and it really hurts town's chances even when scum is lynched by it! As scum, I have lolhammered or set up situations where it can be a possibility many times. The reason I prefer L-1 as scum over the actual lolhammer is because it has become almost a scumtell of mine as I can think of probably 5 distinct times when I lolhammered as scum, and I never EVER do it as town! Maybe once? But I don't even think so. That's part of what I mean by unexpected play.
In Mini 1969 (Also, your most recent game I can find, with an end date of yesterday) you had ample opportunity to drop an L-1 vote in a town full of lolhammer players and chose not to. In the werewolf thread, you explicitly say your style means you would always talk out the wagon before voting when Boon asks you to lay down your vote. You have literally no reason to lie to your scumpartner in that situation. Why are you provably lying to me here?

Also, ftr, metadiving listmods is tedious as hell because they close and lock so MANY GAMES.
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Post Post #88 (ISO) » Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:44 am

Post by Aristophanes »

In post 87, Jingle wrote:
In post 82, Aristophanes wrote:As town I am usually very worries about lolhammers. I have been burned by them too many times, even being on the receiving end on Page one once. It suchs and it really hurts town's chances even when scum is lynched by it! As scum, I have lolhammered or set up situations where it can be a possibility many times. The reason I prefer L-1 as scum over the actual lolhammer is because it has become almost a scumtell of mine as I can think of probably 5 distinct times when I lolhammered as scum, and I never EVER do it as town! Maybe once? But I don't even think so. That's part of what I mean by unexpected play.
In Mini 1969 (Also, your most recent game I can find, with an end date of yesterday) you had ample opportunity to drop an L-1 vote in a town full of lolhammer players and chose not to. In the werewolf thread, you explicitly say your style means you would always talk out the wagon before voting when Boon asks you to lay down your vote. You have literally no reason to lie to your scumpartner in that situation. Why are you provably lying to me here?

Also, ftr, metadiving listmods is tedious as hell because they close and lock so MANY GAMES.
Yeah, that's why I didn't dive into my own history yo!

Uh, It's situational I suppose? In that instance I was not caught up and therefore would never have voted an L-1. If I am caught up or it is early on I am far more likely to as I can create a basis for the vote, reason it out, and if not discuss it with myself, discuss it with the people in the thread.
In fact, I did that D3 of the game when we were playing all or nothing because I was reasonably caught up and could hold a conversation about it.

In that game I also did Lolhammer, and I was obvscum because of it. That's why it is something I typically avoid. It really does depend on game, playerbase, and how I'm feeling at the time. However the meta I presented you is the truer version of my overall approach, despite this example which shows otherwise.

Also, playing with Boon does crazy things with one's playetyle :P
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Post Post #89 (ISO) » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:09 pm

Post by Jingle »

Recent Ari games:

1819 Newbie- Lolhammers as scum, feigns thinking its an L-1

1828 Newbie- Favorable response to a lolhammer on scum as conftown.

686 Open- Part of a lolhammer (he was l-4 and the lynch happened less than a page later), doesn't complain in the twilight or the dead thread after being shot the next night and town wins.

692 Open- Ari drops L-1 reluctantly at deadline as scum.

Combine that with:

Mini 1969- 240 is L-2. Ari posts seven times the last of which is 275, so clearly he is present. 281 one of the people leaves the wagon.

Subject: Mini Normal 1969 Werewolf Thread
Aristophanes wrote:It'd be sketch as fuck for me to before catching up, and my playstyle would have me talk out the wagon first.

I would if I could :(
Add the inconsistency between and here?

Ari is caught scum. I'm going to be the vengekill, because bussing in this setup is insane and thus I'm obviously town. I do NOT want a hammer on him until I've had time to pursue and expound upon my other reads, because I believe I have solved this game. If I have, I feel I must admit I'm very disappointed, given how much I've been looking forward to playing with some of you. Still, needs must and winning a game is enough of a consolation prize that I will have to content myself with it.
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Post Post #90 (ISO) » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:22 pm

Post by Aristophanes »

Lol apparently I dont know my own meta at all!

I hate to break it to you, but I'm not scum. You have solved nothg at all! Feel free tolynch me if you like, but that really won't get you what you want it to :P

Meh.
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Post Post #91 (ISO) » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:25 pm

Post by Aristophanes »

I shouldn't be double posting and I apologize, but what exactly is the inconsistency between 82 and 88? Like, I see where I selfmeta'd incorrectly (I guess my playstyle has evolved without me noticing) and I do believe it is dependant on the game and situation. So what inconsistency are you seeing?

Good work on the metadive btw! That's more work than I would have put into it!
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Post Post #92 (ISO) » Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:47 pm

Post by insanity018 »

Happy New Year everyone!

I liked the tone of Keychain's , but that could be because she's agreeing with me. I thought she made a very interesting comment about Jingle in , "Mostly what I find kind of funny is that you're so upset about me "dancing around" a scumread on you without sealing it with a vote but you're equally dancing around one on me."

Spoiler: Non game-related thing I just realised about Keychain
I didn't realise that Aotearoa is New Zealand!

In post 81, Jingle wrote:
In post 80, insanity018 wrote:@Jingle Your post above was mostly about your suspicions for Keychain and Luca Blight
and Korts
. So, why are you voting for RayFrost?
Bolded mine.
The point still stands. You have spent most of your time talking about Keychain, Luca Blight and Korts. You have since called Aristophanes caught scum in

So, why are you voting RayFrost? From what I can see, you have only talked about Ray for meta reasons and to ask him a question in

In post 83, Lord Gurgi wrote:
xRECKONERx
[10 Posts] (1) -
Aristophanes
:( Ari, I was liking you before but what are you doing?

Why are you vote-parking an RVS vote on Reck when you have stated that you read him as strong town?
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Post Post #93 (ISO) » Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:23 pm

Post by Aristophanes »

Do I actually syill havs a Reck vote ? Lmfao
UNVOTE:

I like you insanity. Jingle feels like scum pushing a narratinmve tbh.

I dont lime their conclusions. They feel xoncenuevt.
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Post Post #94 (ISO) » Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:49 pm

Post by Jingle »

In post 91, Aristophanes wrote:I shouldn't be double posting and I apologize, but what exactly is the inconsistency between 82 and 88? Like, I see where I selfmeta'd incorrectly (I guess my playstyle has evolved without me noticing) and I do believe it is dependant on the game and situation. So what inconsistency are you seeing?
You'll forgive me, of course, but you've convinced me of nothing. And it is an exercise in futility for me to try to convince you that you're scum. Should anyone else need the assistance in seeing why you are scum, I'll expound, but to be honest it seems like a waste of my time.

insanity, I responded to you by quoting you. Either I'm scum hunting, or I'm faking scum hunting. In either case, I'm going to tell you I'm scum hunting. In either case, I think having my vote on Ray means more than having it on anyone else. In either case, your question is going to get you no where.
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Post Post #95 (ISO) » Sun Dec 31, 2017 9:29 pm

Post by Aristophanes »

Okay, glad we can get nowhere together then.

I asked as talking to me is talking to the thread (in the Geriatrics suggestions set) and I know asking can yield good results for those indirectly in the conversation. I asked for them.

I think you have a chance of actually scumhunting but my gut says yoy may be faking it. I was hoping to sort you by your responses but you have proven more dofficult tham nost in that sense

I appreciate wherr your vote is and think it says a lot. Can you restate the reasons for them beingore scummy than I? I would appreciate it a lot.
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Post Post #96 (ISO) » Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:17 pm

Post by Jingle »

I'm glad we can get nowhere too. If literally anyone else has questions about why you're scum, it's worth going over. If it's just a back and forth with you about something that's fairly obvious, that's clogging the thread with bullshit to make it unreadable.

I haven't talked about my scumread on Frost yet, nor will I until he's put a bit more into the thread. I do want to pursue it before you have a chance to venge me. I also think it might be more important for the rest of town if I'm off the wagon when we powerlynch you, but we'll see what comes in the next few days. If, somehow, you lying in a LAMIST way about how you act as scum, doubling down when presented with contrary evidence and explaining said evidence away with an "It's situational" handwave, and then throwing your hands in the air and saying I guess I don't know my own meta when confronted with a reasonably in depth meta dive proving that not only is that not your meta, but it hasn't been for a reasonably long time is town (A hint: it's not) then you should be focusing on scumhunting now more than ever.
In post 58, Jingle wrote:In post 56, RayFrost wrote:
Re question regarding luca putting words in other people's mouths, I suppose I used the wrong wording, I'll get back to that sometime later or forget and then get back to it when someone asks


Consider yourself asked, when you have the time. I'll bring it up again if I must, but this needs to be addressed.
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Post Post #97 (ISO) » Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:18 am

Post by Jingle »

Oh, hey. This is entirely off topic, but inappropriate to send by pm because it was directly influenced by this game. I’ve decided to run a jester nightless in the micro queue, Keychain. Any of you are welcome to prein, though I expect it to be functionally the opposite of a geriatric game. I mention this here because I ran into keychain commenting on an old jester nightless game of mine in a dead thread while meta-ing and felt it would be inappropriate to pm due to the confirmation that I AM in fact reading through other games. As Key can tell you, my use of meta shouldn’t be an alignment tell for me, but I wanted to avoid even the possibility of giving additional information to just one person in the game. And now I’m going to sleep for 12 hours or until someone wakes me up with an emergency.
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Post Post #98 (ISO) » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:51 am

Post by Korts »

The confusion around my Jingle townread is completely fair - I had written out my reads after coming back to the post a couple hours later, and I didn't really go through my notes again, I just went off the top of my head. I had a lot of good will left over from Jingle's game starting behavior, but I realize that I conflated pro-game behavior with pro-town behavior - and his play has been increasingly off-kilter since then.
In post 78, Jingle wrote:I also think that once I explain said plan, much of your gut scumread will make a lot more sense to you.
I really don't know how to read this. Is the plan itself scummy, or does it just result in scummy-looking behavior as you are setting it up? When are you explaining this plan that justifies scumreading you?

As for your challenge to find something that comes across from you as genuine, I'm happy to oblige you over the weekend. I'm guessing it's related to the same pro-game behavior as I said before. You challenged players at the appropriate times to move things forward.
In post 78, Jingle wrote:My biggest concern with Luca is that he clearly thinks I'm town. He's been answering for me in a way that subtly suggests he's defending me without outright saying it, 25, which sets off all of my buddying alarms. He's been assuming he knows why I'm posting what I'm posting without considering alternatives, 26, which is a major red flag that he's not actually trying to work out my alignment. Generally, he thinks I'm town, and I think he should think I'm null. Especially at the top of page 2. I'd love an explanation as to what made you so sure I was town, Luca.
That's fair. What do you think of him answering my questions to you (once when you already had, and a second time before you did)?
In post 78, Jingle wrote:(and frankly, I'd like to see [Keychain] get her sea legs under her and wow me.)
I appreciate shows of respect and camaraderie as much as the next person, but this parenthetical is kind of weird to finish a scumread on.
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Post Post #99 (ISO) » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:28 am

Post by Korts »

@insanity:


Yes, the Luca post you quoted in 80 is one of the two cases where Luca has undermined my questioning. That is the second occurrence,

In the first, he re-answers questions that I directed at Jingle in post 11, which were already addressed and furthered at the point of Luca's response:

Spoiler:
In post 25, Luca Blight wrote:
In post 11, Korts wrote:
In post 5, Jingle wrote:VOTE: Korts

Chainsaw defense.
Hmmm can you elaborate? Am I the perpetrator of this chainsaw defense, or are you justifying your vote with it? And do you mean the PolarBoy or the Tarhalindur version of the chainsaw defense?
I agree that this questioning feels superficial.

1) Putting a serious spin on a jovial RVS vote

2) Obviously he wasn't accusing you of being the perpetrator. How would that even have been possible in this scenario?

3) It's obvious which version he meant. Did this really need to be asked?


What particularly bothers me is the rhetorical questions he uses. The only purpose they serve is to make my questions look illogical and unnecessary. Which they weren't, because they were successful in getting an explicit scumclaim.

On this reading, I also realized that he also accuses me of being too serious about a joke in his first point, but then immediately turns around and demands that seriousness of me in the second point. "How would that even be possible" is essentially the same thing I was asking of Jingle, but I was doing it with tongue in cheek.
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