Mafiascum.net

Not the point, his vote was to put mewtaph to L2, once Lolwagons put them to L1 then podoboq was clear that they didn't want it at L1. For me, there's a difference.

But that is my point? Podoboq thought he was putting Mewtah to L-2 ---> lolwagons says the modmissed his earlier vote ---> Podoboq unvotes because he thinks he put the wagon at L-1.

Is that not what I said before or am I missing something with the timeline here

In post 30, LolWagons wrote:Initial read is that Dann is town.

I don’t like Mewtaph’s questioning, I think it was pretty obviously a joke and that the line of questioning comes from someone wanting to look like they’re doing something rather and logically thinking through to the conclusion Dann reached (about giving the answers away before a response). My intent was to get us out of RVS early and it seems to be working.

Vote Mewtaph

That’s L-2 I believe.

This is his initial vote in case you were thinking post #60 was lolwagons not counted vote on Mewtaph

In post 72, Dannflor wrote:This whole issue is exacerbated by the fact of him jumping right back on the wagon when mbaki unvotes. Clearly he wants to push the wagon, he just doesn't want to be the one who puts him at L-1 because that draws too much attention.

If you thought I was worried about drawing attention to myself, you must think I'm pretty damn oblivious, huh?

I'm generally not comfortable leaving people at L-1 unless I'm certain I want them to die. I did one read of the thread, and a couple of rereads on some of Mewtaph's posts, before placing a vote on Mewtaph. With only a couple of pages, that doesn't leave me certain that I want them dead, but it does leave me certain that I want to pressure them, and I don't like the empty words of "this person is scummy" without the confidence to vote for them.

I think the further a vote is to the end of a wagon, the more you want somebody flipped. An early vote can just be "I want to pressure this slot," and the last vote is clearly "Flip it already." I think there's a pretty serious difference between a vote that places someone at L-2 and one that places them at L-1, and while I hate Mewtaph's posts, I don't believe I'm an infallible scum hunter in about a dozen posts.

In post 76, Dannflor wrote:But that is my point? Podoboq thought he was putting Mewtah to L-2 ---> lolwagons says the modmissed his earlier vote ---> Podoboq unvotes because he thinks he put the wagon at L-1.

Is that not what I said before or am I missing something with the timeline here

You have to understand that the two things you're describing are literally the same thing.

When placing my vote, the intention was to bring the wagon to L-2. lolwagon's vote brings the wagon to L-1, regardless of the order in which our two votes were placed. I didn't want the wagon sitting on L-1.

By placing a vote at L-2, the intention is to get reactions from not only Mewtaph, but other players, without the immediate risk of lolhammers or Mewtaph claiming as a surprise town pr. If directly after my vote, the wagon is at L-1, whether it's because another person immediately followed me by voting or the previous L-2 was missed, my vote is no longer accomplishing its goal.

VOTE: podoboq
Speaking of L-2s, this would be considered one of them.

In post 71, Mewtaph wrote:

In post 59, podoboq wrote:Mewtaph's posts do not pass a Turing test.

VOTE: Mewtaph

Can you explain the reason behind this vote in a more digestible way?

You're a robot.

Your posts are inorganic, and don't read as legitimate human thought in any way. Everything you type reads as if it's a fabricated opinion or perspective, and I don't see how a town person playing a game of mafia naturally comes to some of the conclusions that you do.

This is absolute gibberish, and I struggle to believe a human would read this and think it's OMGUS. And your follow up question is completely out of place and pointless. By asking someone "how does town play," you're asking somebody to spell out the blueprint for scum to follow in order to appear as town.

You also ask "how someone should go about achieving their town win condition," instead of "how town should go about achieving their win condition," which just rubs me really wrong. If English isn't your first language, I apologize, and I'll admit that my read on you is probably miscolored. But if English is your first language, I don't see how these words, in this order, come off your keyboard. It feels extremely manicured, like somebody thinking how to present themselves as towny as possible.

In post 80, Mewtaph wrote:Speaking of L-2s, this would be considered one of them.

Metaph is either a robot or Perd Hapley.

In post 81, podoboq wrote:You also ask "how someone should go about achieving their town win condition," instead of "how town should go about achieving their win condition," which just rubs me really wrong. If English isn't your first language, I apologize, and I'll admit that my read on you is probably miscolored. But if English is your first language, I don't see how these words, in this order, come off your keyboard. It feels extremely manicured, like somebody thinking how to present themselves as towny as possible.

I fail to see the difference? They say exactly the same thing.

In post 72, Dannflor wrote:Podoboq, do you seriously believe someone is going to quick hammer 3 pages in and with 10 days left on the clock?

Oh, by the way, yes. I've seen lolhammers happen before, and I doubt that you haven't. Lolclaims are also a problem, where an inexperienced, frustrated, or simply bad player sees themselves at L-1 and just claims because lol. I don't think either is a positive result with this little progress into the game.

In post 81, podoboq wrote:This is absolute gibberish, and I struggle to believe a human would read this and think it's OMGUS. And your follow up question is completely out of place and pointless. By asking someone "how does town play," you're asking somebody to spell out the blueprint for scum to follow in order to appear as town.

If someone tries to fabricate their scum play to meet supposed standards of town play in a way that doesn't suit them, I think it would become inherently obvious over time that how they're posting is false. LolWagon's "blueprint" for town play is probably different from mine, so I'm not really opening myself up to manipulation here either. I don't understand the criticisms of my thoughts other than "I just don't see how someone thinks like this" which I for one, don't understand as someone generating these thoughts, and my second thought is that it isn't a very productive angle to generate further discussion from.

In post 83, Mewtaph wrote:

In post 81, podoboq wrote:You also ask "how someone should go about achieving their town win condition," instead of "how town should go about achieving their win condition," which just rubs me really wrong. If English isn't your first language, I apologize, and I'll admit that my read on you is probably miscolored. But if English is your first language, I don't see how these words, in this order, come off your keyboard. It feels extremely manicured, like somebody thinking how to present themselves as towny as possible.

I fail to see the difference? They say exactly the same thing.

"How town should go about achieving their win condition" is how I would expect the average person to think to phrase that sentence. It rolls off the tongue better, and just feels more natural. However, someone could pick you apart and say "He asked how town should achieve their win condition, leaving himself out, implying he isn't town." It's unlikely anybody would argue that, and they'd be wrong to argue it, but people could stupidly read it as a scum slip.

"How someone should go about achieving their town win condition" has this funny implication that the question asker is town. It just looks very unnatural that your question is uncomfortably framed in the way that implies that you're town.

In post 86, podoboq wrote:

In post 83, Mewtaph wrote:

In post 81, podoboq wrote:You also ask "how someone should go about achieving their town win condition," instead of "how town should go about achieving their win condition," which just rubs me really wrong. If English isn't your first language, I apologize, and I'll admit that my read on you is probably miscolored. But if English is your first language, I don't see how these words, in this order, come off your keyboard. It feels extremely manicured, like somebody thinking how to present themselves as towny as possible.

I fail to see the difference? They say exactly the same thing.

"How town should go about achieving their win condition" is how I would expect the average person to think to phrase that sentence. It rolls off the tongue better, and just feels more natural. However, someone could pick you apart and say "He asked how town should achieve their win condition, leaving himself out, implying he isn't town." It's unlikely anybody would argue that, and they'd be wrong to argue it, but people could stupidly read it as a scum slip.

"How someone should go about achieving their town win condition" has this funny implication that the question asker is town. It just looks very unnatural that your question is uncomfortably framed in the way that implies that you're town.

Sure, but in this case the implication is that the self-referential nature of that is asking for LolWagon's thoughts on how he would typically play town. That is what I'm more interested in rather than a disconnected answer of perhaps, "Town can play however they want". The framing of the question suggests that the idea of "playing to a town win condition" is different for every player and that is what I wanted to gauge from LolWagons here.

In post 85, Mewtaph wrote:

In post 81, podoboq wrote:This is absolute gibberish, and I struggle to believe a human would read this and think it's OMGUS. And your follow up question is completely out of place and pointless. By asking someone "how does town play," you're asking somebody to spell out the blueprint for scum to follow in order to appear as town.

If someone tries to fabricate their scum play to meet supposed standards of town play in a way that doesn't suit them, I think it would become inherently obvious over time that how they're posting is false. LolWagon's "blueprint" for town play is probably different from mine, so I'm not really opening myself up to manipulation here either. I don't understand the criticisms of my thoughts other than "I just don't see how someone thinks like this" which I for one, don't understand as someone generating these thoughts, and my second thought is that it isn't a very productive angle to generate further discussion from.

If you're not prescribing a blueprint for how scum should act to appear as town, your giving them a pecking order of who to night kill in order to leave only people who will naturally read them as town.

Asking "how does town achieve their win condition" is a pointless question, because it can't be answered in any satisfying way, and to attempt to answer it only serves to help scum.

In post 88, podoboq wrote:If you're not prescribing a blueprint for how scum should act to appear as town, your giving them a pecking order of who to night kill in order to leave only people who will naturally read them as town.

By principle, this is true but imo time leaves no stone unturned. If scum want to boost themselves up to have a "good start", then they could probably do that anyway in a different way if they have any kind of general idea of how to look like town. If they are in fact relying on pocketing players to forward the game state, then that makes it somewhat more likely for them to have inconsistencies in their posting than if they didn't have an ulterior motive in mind.

In post 88, podoboq wrote:Asking "how does town achieve their win condition" is a pointless question, because it can't be answered in any satisfying way, and to attempt to answer it only serves to help scum.

The thing is, I'm not asking how does town achieve their win condition. I'm asking how town achieve their win condition, and hence I'm seeking a more subjective answer. Their answer thus is more likely to tell more about their player and more importantly how play will commence for that specific player. If I asked something like, "How many hours does it take to get prodded", that wouldn't be a very useful question because the answer I'm going to get is 48 hours.

In post 90, Mewtaph wrote:Their answer thus is more likely to tell more about their player and more importantly how play will commence for that specific player.

But again, there is no satisfying answer to the question of "how should town achieve their win condition," because it depends on an uncountable number of factors that may not be present in a given game or even be in control of the player.

Town should achieve their win condition by not lolclaiming PR at L-1. But that's only one factor, and it's one that may not be relevant to a given player in a game, or even be in their control, because they might not reach L-1 until a claim is actually valuable. There's just no way to answer your question that is helpful for town, and asking it serves no pro-town purpose.

In post 91, podoboq wrote:

In post 90, Mewtaph wrote:Their answer thus is more likely to tell more about their player and more importantly how play will commence for that specific player.

But again, there is no satisfying answer to the question of "how should town achieve their win condition," because it depends on an uncountable number of factors that may not be present in a given game or even be in control of the player.

Town should achieve their win condition by not lolclaiming PR at L-1. But that's only one factor, and it's one that may not be relevant to a given player in a game, or even be in their control, because they might not reach L-1 until a claim is actually valuable. There's just no way to answer your question that is helpful for town, and asking it serves no pro-town purpose.

Well, okay. I disagree that an answer needs to be "satisfying" in some way to be useful. By nature of answering questions, it is easier to differentiate one player from another player from the beginning of the game where town has zero information. While yes, that is one way to answer the question, that would be abstractly boring and hence I asked it to a player who I would expect to receive "not a completely objective" answer from. Whether it is "complete" or "satisfying" in the mind of other players, I don't really think matters.

That’s two L-2 OMGUS votes from Mewtaph now and we are on page 4.

In post 93, LolWagons wrote:That’s two L-2 OMGUS votes from Mewtaph now and we are on page 4.

Do you think there's an objectively better place to put my vote at this stage given who has been actively posting so far?

In post 94, Mewtaph wrote:

In post 93, LolWagons wrote:That’s two L-2 OMGUS votes from Mewtaph now and we are on page 4.

Do you think there's an objectively better place to put my vote at this stage given who has been actively posting so far?

Oh it’s not really who it’s on that’s the issue here. It’s the timing.

In post 95, LolWagons wrote:

In post 94, Mewtaph wrote:

In post 93, LolWagons wrote:That’s two L-2 OMGUS votes from Mewtaph now and we are on page 4.

Do you think there's an objectively better place to put my vote at this stage given who has been actively posting so far?

Oh it’s not really who it’s on that’s the issue here. It’s the timing.

What about the timing of my vote posts is bugging you here?

The fact they came after people that voted you.

Ok, so now what do you think it means for the future of this game?

In post 98, Mewtaph wrote:Ok, so now what do you think it means for the future of this game?

What do you even mean by that?

You flip red, I probably die N1. That’s the current trajectory I feel this game is on.

But it’s page four. So who knows.