In post 59, Formerfish wrote:I dont think in itself retracting is scummy. For me it was the push to begin with followed up by the quick abandonment of it.
Like the slot is 7 days old and makes an obnewb (no offense) post and she jumps down his throat with a bad faith argument, and a vote, only to be like hey why did you say that, and they explain that they are new (WHICH IS OBVIOUS) and she pulls back like oh thats cool.
Unless ETL is going for a slayers gambit by targeting me and a newb to draw heat I dont get her play and dont like hwat i see.
I don't see anything scummy about realizing another possibility and following up on it. I could see scenarios where switching a viewpoint quickly would be scummy, but not realizing all the possibilities and then investigating further? That's the sort of thing that results in fewer mislynches, not more.
Unless the whole thing was staged, but I'm not getting that vibe here.
Its not the walk back, it was the whole thing, it felt over the top for something that i felt was evident.
I think maybe I was a little salty about ETL playing along with my RQS and then voting me. She should know by her own admission that scum!me wouldnt be this open about rocking the boat, but she is still looking at me crosseyed.
Thats why im trying to figure out if this is tvt where we both feel like the other stepped on each others toes or if this is tvs where ETL is trying to set me up for a mislynch somehwere.
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:37 pm
by Farren
In post 71, Spartan117 wrote:I know its not going to be believed now as factually its after your post, but I wasnt sheeping in the slightest, I read #14 and was about to comment on it, but got distracted irl. I can see how my delayed irl response can look like sheeping but its not whether you want to believe that, its up to you im not bothered either way. I'm happy where my vote is atm, sure I can see how it may be newbtown, but it could also be newbscum being over defensive, having a inexperienced response does not mean that a person is instantly town. I have seen several times where people have been let off the hook for things they have said with it being put down to them being new to forum mafia, and therefore they are automatically newbtown.
With Gildedsun being voted No. 4 out of 5 votes before their #14 post, with all 5 being random to say "the random votes will only raise my suspicions of the offender" makes me think sure thats an inexperienced thing to say with minimal understanding of RVS but that doesnt mean that person is town in my eyes.
I felt like ETLs vote was a natural reaction in #16, not sure if too AI yet, will know more as i read through their 23 posts (over double the next player) could be LAMIST could just be eager to get the game going, ill find out as I read through.
#20 & #21 makes me think there is a big learning curve for Gilded in terms of how pressure works in order to obtain reads.
not too keen on ETLs #24 felt like a weak vote remove, could see them being a scum team (will note this for future reference).
In response to Farrens #29, I felt hyper was the best choice of word considering I had not seen someone react in such dismay over being voted before they had even posted.
I like you asking questions, but haven't seen any presentation of what you think of anyone. hmm..
Not sure what I think of the ETL v Fish interactions yet, could be TvT wish to evaluate better with more content.
Like Faustivs input so far, reads pretty townie so far.
I like #53 and agree with their spot, could be a good tell, hmm I'd say that my vote may be better placed here instead in that case.
VOTE: Formerfish
I'm confused.
You have: "I'm happy where my vote is atm", "not too keen on ETLs #24 felt like a weak vote remove, could see them being a scum team (will note this for future reference)."
You have "Not sure what I think of the ETL v Fish interactions yet, could be TvT wish to evaluate better with more content."
You just voted for Formerfish.
So you think ETL + GildedSun could both be scum; you think ETL + Fish could both be Town; and presumably you think Fish could be scum if you're voting for him.
Two 'could' statements and a vote with "may be better placed" so there's some uncertainty involved, but post 18 was a lot more confident. This post is all over the place. Why?
In post 71, Spartan117 wrote:I know its not going to be believed now as factually its after your post, but I wasnt sheeping in the slightest, I read #14 and was about to comment on it, but got distracted irl. I can see how my delayed irl response can look like sheeping but its not whether you want to believe that, its up to you im not bothered either way. I'm happy where my vote is atm, sure I can see how it may be newbtown, but it could also be newbscum being over defensive, having a inexperienced response does not mean that a person is instantly town. I have seen several times where people have been let off the hook for things they have said with it being put down to them being new to forum mafia, and therefore they are automatically newbtown.
With Gildedsun being voted No. 4 out of 5 votes before their #14 post, with all 5 being random to say "the random votes will only raise my suspicions of the offender" makes me think sure thats an inexperienced thing to say with minimal understanding of RVS but that doesnt mean that person is town in my eyes.
I felt like ETLs vote was a natural reaction in #16, not sure if too AI yet, will know more as i read through their 23 posts (over double the next player) could be LAMIST could just be eager to get the game going, ill find out as I read through.
#20 & #21 makes me think there is a big learning curve for Gilded in terms of how pressure works in order to obtain reads.
not too keen on ETLs #24 felt like a weak vote remove, could see them being a scum team (will note this for future reference).
In response to Farrens #29, I felt hyper was the best choice of word considering I had not seen someone react in such dismay over being voted before they had even posted.
I like you asking questions, but haven't seen any presentation of what you think of anyone. hmm..
Not sure what I think of the ETL v Fish interactions yet, could be TvT wish to evaluate better with more content.
Like Faustivs input so far, reads pretty townie so far.
I like #53 and agree with their spot, could be a good tell, hmm I'd say that my vote may be better placed here instead in that case.
VOTE: Formerfish
I'm confused.
You have: "I'm happy where my vote is atm", "not too keen on ETLs #24 felt like a weak vote remove, could see them being a scum team (will note this for future reference)."
You have "Not sure what I think of the ETL v Fish interactions yet, could be TvT wish to evaluate better with more content."
You just voted for Formerfish.
So you think ETL + GildedSun could both be scum; you think ETL + Fish could both be Town; and presumably you think Fish could be scum if you're voting for him.
Two 'could' statements and a vote with "may be better placed" so there's some uncertainty involved, but post 18 was a lot more confident. This post is all over the place. Why?
It's called read progression, I commented organically as I read through the posts in order, thus my perspective changed, and I think uncertainty is fairly obvious for someone who has no idea what anyones roles are. It's not like we have had tons of content to get alignment reads from yet
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:57 pm
by eth0s
Mod notes:
Yodavader replaces Azadeh.
QueenAlien confirmed her role PM but did not post and is being replaced.[/area]
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:19 pm
by Yodavader
Well, that was quite an interesting start to the game.
In post 10, Formerfish wrote:I've been wanting to try something different with RVs
1. If you were in a 4 piece band (front man singer, guitar, bass and drums) which do you choose and why?
2. Do you play poker? How would you describe your play?
3. Oh shit... It looks like this is still in progress, just answer the first two and we'll be good.
1. I would be the bass player because we all know that the bassist is really the face of any band. Plus, my current favorite person on my current favorite band is the bassist, MISA from Band-Maid.
2. With real money, very conservatively. With fake money, mostly all-ins at the beginning to try and get a good lead and then more conservative once I have a good amount of chips.
In post 40, faüstiv wrote:It was RVS, so I just picked someone at random, though if anything, RVS’ing a new player is a better way to illicit a reaction from them. Experienced players know it’s RVS, so are unlikely to take the vote seriously.
I like the thought process behind this.
Do you think newbie town or scum is more likely to react poorly to being voted?
What did you learn from the vote here?
For me, especially if this is their first game with this type of setup, I think it's NAI (I think that's the right term for it). The reaction I got is that she is very jumpy but understandable since I hated being voted for my first few games in forum based Mafia. So for me, it's forgiven but not forgotten. Let's see how she plays the rest of the game.
Now, if she had even just a couple of games under her belt, then I would say that this is scummy. I think town would be more jumpy if they were at L-1 where scum wouldn't want any attention at all.
In post 41, Formerfish wrote:I think for scum to win they have to kill townies and maybe you want to push me as scum to get me out of the way early, I don't know why you are making bad pushes. I think that if you were interested in why someone was playing a certain way that you would talk to them about it, but both times now you have kinda flown off half cocked only to retract within a post or two.
Is retracting a bad argument scummy, Town, or both? And why?
For me, it depends on how the retraction goes. A gradual progression after a discussion is more townie than an abrupt 180 turn in a very short time.
I'm going to have to go back through the ETL/Fish section to see how I really feel about that.
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:04 pm
by Yodavader
In post 25, EspeciallyTheLies wrote:Though I am curious why faust chose you over someone he knows or has played with before. Being that this is your first MS game, you haven't played with anyone here yet. Yeah yeah it's random but like, a lot of people use it as a "hello" type thing. If Faust was brand new like you, I would understand just randomly picking but I think there might have been some thought put into that choice.
Faust
- can you walk me through that pls?
I'm don't think anything in RVS can be taken seriously. In my experience, I have seen people vote for others that they have played with before because "they were scum last game, so they must be scum this game" and also where they vote for players they haven't played with before because "I don't know you so you must be scum" and basically anything in between. So, I think trying to figure out why a person chose this player to RVS over another is a moot point.
In post 18, Spartan117 wrote:This is a very scummy response, town wouldn't be so worried of being voted as a townie being lynched gives reads of who was on their wagon and why, while scum are much more nervous about being lynched and this is hyper shown here.
VOTE: TheGildedSun
My experience has been that early signs of nervousness can sometimes be scum-motivated, but it's definitely not a smoking gun by any stretch. Some Town players absolutely get nervous about being voted.
What about GildedSun's behavior makes this "hyper shown here?"
I don't think we need to talk about this part anymore. It doesn't help us at all and can only hurt us.
But why stop a conversation in the first place? If we are actually making some kind of progress, why stop it?
Still waiting for a reason why you popped in with no explanation on this vote.
But as of right now, I am going to VOTE: Fish. I don't know why you would want to stop any conversation. My experience (limited as it is) says that conversations will naturally die off on it's own and move onto the next topic. There is not reason for someone to try and stop it. Also, I think the slip of the tongue is more telling than what you are trying to cover.
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:21 pm
by Formerfish
In post 80, Yodavader wrote:But why stop a conversation in the first place? If we are actually making some kind of progress, why stop it?
Because certain conversations shouldnt be had before they need to. Like the jump on Gilded as scum for his cagey-ness could just as easily come from a newbie town pr who gets freaked out they are being pushed early. And generally role fishing is a bad idea and I discourage people from letting scum have more information than they have now, which will help them with nk choices.
In post 80, Yodavader wrote:I know that you have already answered this but I just wanted to point out that I have noticed this too.
You notice that i have a tr on myself and the guy who outed himself in his first post, you cracked the case there columbo.
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:27 pm
by eth0s
Chibiie replaces QueenAlien
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:35 pm
by eth0s
Mod notes:
n/a[/area]
Posted: Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:52 pm
by Chibiie
Hello Spartan, Yoda.. We meet again.
Currently busy, but will make time to read the game and join in the RVS.
In the meantime, hello everyone, let's have a good game.
In post 18, Spartan117 wrote:This is a very scummy response, town wouldn't be so worried of being voted as a townie being lynched gives reads of who was on their wagon and why, while scum are much more nervous about being lynched and this is hyper shown here.
VOTE: TheGildedSun
Spartan you need to address this - others have had questions for you about this as well.
I know its not going to be believed now as factually its after your post, but I wasnt sheeping in the slightest, I read #14 and was about to comment on it, but got distracted irl. I can see how my delayed irl response can look like sheeping but its not whether you want to believe that, its up to you im not bothered either way. I'm happy where my vote is atm, sure I can see how it may be newbtown, but it could also be newbscum being over defensive, having a inexperienced response does not mean that a person is instantly town. I have seen several times where people have been let off the hook for things they have said with it being put down to them being new to forum mafia, and therefore they are automatically newbtown.
With Gildedsun being voted No. 4 out of 5 votes before their #14 post, with all 5 being random to say "the random votes will only raise my suspicions of the offender" makes me think sure thats an inexperienced thing to say with minimal understanding of RVS but that doesnt mean that person is town in my eyes.
I felt like ETLs vote was a natural reaction in #16, not sure if too AI yet, will know more as i read through their 23 posts (over double the next player) could be LAMIST could just be eager to get the game going, ill find out as I read through.
#20 & #21 makes me think there is a big learning curve for Gilded in terms of how pressure works in order to obtain reads.
not too keen on ETLs #24 felt like a weak vote remove, could see them being a scum team (will note this for future reference).
In response to Farrens #29, I felt hyper was the best choice of word considering I had not seen someone react in such dismay over being voted before they had even posted.
I like you asking questions, but haven't seen any presentation of what you think of anyone. hmm..
Not sure what I think of the ETL v Fish interactions yet, could be TvT wish to evaluate better with more content.
Like Faustivs input so far, reads pretty townie so far.
I like #53 and agree with their spot, could be a good tell, hmm I'd say that my vote may be better placed here instead in that case.
VOTE: Formerfish
Wasn't expecting less from your strong logic.
I haven't read the entire game yet, just jumped through posts really quicky on my phone.
This is RVS and I want info, so VOTE: Formerfish, since this is RVS and you're the lucky winner of my
L-1
vote! Any lol-hammer will become my #1 scum.
I repeat, this is
L-1
.
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:10 am
by Spartan117
In post 84, Chibiie wrote:Hello Spartan, Yoda.. We meet again.
Currently busy, but will make time to read the game and join in the RVS.
In the meantime, hello everyone, let's have a good game.
Lmao we meet again Chibiie and yoda, welcome.
I hope you arent gonna boss us all with your tactics again Chibiie
UNVOTE: Fish
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:10 am
by Spartan117
L-2
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:13 am
by Chibiie
Spartan117 wrote:
In post 84, Chibiie wrote:Hello Spartan, Yoda.. We meet again.
Currently busy, but will make time to read the game and join in the RVS.
In the meantime, hello everyone, let's have a good game.
Lmao we meet again Chibiie and yoda, welcome.
I hope you arent gonna boss us all with your tactics again Chibiie
UNVOTE: Fish
Nah, now that I've experienced forum Mafia, I've noticed that getting into too many details and livestreaming my thoughts is eating a lot of time.
And I didn't boss anyone :(
I deceived :)
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:47 am
by EspeciallyTheLies
Next few days are gonna be busy for me just FYI.
Strongly disliking the momentum of the fish wagon. Will look into this more later but I’d put money if fish is town, which the speed suggests, there’s at least one scum in that group.
Strongly disliking the momentum of the fish wagon. Will look into this more later but I’d put money if fish is town, which the speed suggests, there’s at least one scum in that group.
In post 10, Formerfish wrote:I've been wanting to try something different with RVs
1. If you were in a 4 piece band (front man singer, guitar, bass and drums) which do you choose and why?
2. Do you play poker? How would you describe your play?
3. Oh shit... It looks like this is still in progress, just answer the first two and we'll be good.
1) drummer cuz i gots anger issues and i don't like being in the spotlight IRL
2) no but if I did I'd probably have fun
3) methinks you trying to dodge suspicion by not voting.
It's hard to say that there was no fight when there were votes put on Fish. Sure, the first was RVS-esque but the second was more of a legitimate vote during a discussion with each other.
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 4:29 am
by Chibiie
I was expecting Fish to react to my L-1 before peeps took their votes back.
I'll keep my vote on Fish until tomorrow morning, when I'm in the office and read the game :)
After I catch up with all chatter and answer those set of questions as well, I'll join in progressing the game as well.
Can I have everyone's time zones? I'm GMT +3
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:17 am
by Farren
In post 77, Spartan117 wrote:It's called read progression, I commented organically as I read through the posts in order, thus my perspective changed, and I think uncertainty is fairly obvious for someone who has no idea what anyones roles are. It's not like we have had tons of content to get alignment reads from yet
First time I've ever seen timewarping compacted into a single post rather than spread out as individual responses.
I think I need to take a look at your past history, see if this is normal for you.
As far as the uncertainty goes - I expect uncertainty at this point. That's normal. What I'm wondering about is the shift.
be so worried of being voted as a townie being lynched gives reads of who was on their wagon and why, while scum are
much more
nervous about being lynched and this is
hyper
shown here."
(formatting added)
The underlines posts show a great deal of confidence in your statement. Overall tone feels like you're trying to convey this as a fact rather than as an opinion.
71 shows none of that - not even about TheGildedSun, despite post 18.
Uncertainty is to be expected at this point. What I'm trying to figure out is if I'm reading too much into what sounds like a tonal shift from confidence to uncertainty. I wouldn't think too much of it normally, but you did specifically call out nervousness about lynching as a scumtell - which tells me I need to be watching you for signs of nervousness, especially when people are voting for you.
That's something else that may get cleared up through some meta-research, though, so I'll tackle that later today.
In post 56, Farren wrote:Is retracting a bad argument scummy, Town, or both? And why?
For me, it depends on how the retraction goes. A gradual progression after a discussion is more townie than an abrupt 180 turn in a very short time.
I'm going to have to go back through the ETL/Fish section to see how I really feel about that.
I think this is a good way to judge read progression - gradual progression is more Town than abrupt 180s here.
For bad arguments, though - it shouldn't take that long to clear up genuine mistakes of fact, semantic confusion, or missed possibilities. Semantic confusion is probably the toughest of the three, as sometimes it isn't obvious that's what's happening - but once it is obvious, it's as easy to fix as the others.
And yes, definitely an interesting start. Should mean a fun game coming up.
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:48 am
by Farren
In post 80, Yodavader wrote:
But as of right now, I am going to VOTE: Fish. I don't know why you would want to stop any conversation. My experience (limited as it is) says that conversations will naturally die off on it's own and move onto the next topic. There is not reason for someone to try and stop it. Also, I think the slip of the tongue is more telling than what you are trying to cover.
I can think of a few different conversations that should be shut down pronto, for a variety of reasons (game rules, game integrity, benefits scum)
I don't think mine fell into any of the categories, but it was at least within eyesight of one of them, so I'm not going to hold a grudge against trying to stay away from the line.
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:53 am
by Farren
In post 85, Chibiie wrote:Wasn't expecting less from your strong logic.
I haven't read the entire game yet, just jumped through posts really quicky on my phone.
This is RVS and I want info, so VOTE: Formerfish, since this is RVS and you're the lucky winner of my
In post 84, Chibiie wrote:Hello Spartan, Yoda.. We meet again.
Currently busy, but will make time to read the game and join in the RVS.
In the meantime, hello everyone, let's have a good game.
Lmao we meet again Chibiie and yoda, welcome.
I hope you arent gonna boss us all with your tactics again Chibiie
UNVOTE: Fish
Pretty sure I know the answer you're going to give - but just in case there's something more to it than I'm thinking - why the unvote?
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:00 am
by Farren
In post 92, Chibiie wrote:I was expecting Fish to react to my L-1 before peeps took their votes back.
I'll keep my vote on Fish until tomorrow morning, when I'm in the office and read the game
After I catch up with all chatter and answer those set of questions as well, I'll join in progressing the game as well.
Can I have everyone's time zones? I'm GMT +3
I want to respond to the first part, but want to wait until Spartan answers before I comment further.
I'm in PDT, so UTC - 7. At least until November 3rd, when we go back to PST (UTC - 8).
Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:49 am
by faüstiv
Thoughts so far:
ETL is my top townread so far because her thought process re. TheGildedSun's early contributions pretty much mirrored mine.
Spartan BW is concerning considering I don't think he did anything
that
scummy; not enough to warrant the heaps of votes placed on him anyway. The players on this BW were in order: ETL, Gdooooog123456789, Farren, though ETL switched vote soon after. I feel this BW could be important to analyze further on in the game.
FormerFish BW doesn't concern me as much; the only thing that's concerning is the speed, but I do agree that FormerFish is the scummiest player in the game currently. His responses to my questions regarding 41 don't fill me with confidence and at the moment I think it was a freudian slip. On;y reason I'm not voting him is because I don't think putting a player in L1 so early on benefits us, and I don't trust Gdoooog123456789 not to lolhammer it, considering he came in and voted Spartan without giving any explanation. BW on FormerFish was: ETL, Spartan, Yodavader, Chibile
