Newbie 2025 | Lilies | Game Over

[Redados]

Thanks for the big post, Frogster!

Now both you and Mush have alluded to keeping the pressure low early in the day. I agree with the idea of not lynching until we've used all our time. But by saying, "we'll keep the pressure low", we don't LEARN anything. No one is going to care that they are being pushed because the pressure is "supposed" to be low. So I'm not really following this train of thought other than to say that I agree that we should use all of our time.

[MagikHorse]

I agree with spending as much time as possible for the day. There are occurrences when it may be better to end the day early if the town falls too deeply into apathy or disinterest (e.g. after excessive amounts of replacements), but those are rather unlikely and quite frankly we'll know 'em when we see 'em.

I don't see the point of keeping pressure low. Pressure both gives people motivation to respond (and slip up), and there's plenty of information to be found in the rise and fall of wagons as well. Even then this feels wholeheartedly like a difference in playstyles, so it's not really very AI.

Frogster's description of me almost perfectly matches his description of himself, ironically enough. I happen to be 27, live in Ohio, and his description of me thus far is similar as well. You wouldn't happen to care for some Skyline Chili... would you?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

I haven't posted today and this is probably it for me today. Caffeine withdrawal is kicking my ass. I'll be back to high activity tomorrow.

In the past I would do worse after day 1, but I've gotten rid of a lot of life stress so my play should be more stable. Also, I'm a lady and I have a homeless person background, so ... you're not really on point with me. Nice cold reading, though.

To be clear: I think keeping pressure low is a good idea to get initial engagement, and then you can dig into that deeply. Since so many are so confused, I'll give the game away: if you're too intense too early and not everyone has checked in and established a pattern of interaction, they get to pretend like they're just playing a quiet game. Once you establish a pattern of interaction, you can press on pattern changes instead of just flailing at a nearly empty corpus of posts for one user. Who might not respond to you, if they just post a single line of near-zero content garbage once a day or so.

Now that I've said it, I'd keep my eyes open for it in the less active players so far. I like to have meat to chew on, I don't like having to get reads on an empty history.

Anyway, I have a headache like someone implanted a nest of centipedes in my frontal cortex and I am exhausted. Talk tomorrow.

[shellyc]

Shelly is back to her repeat posting from last game when she was scum. And by repeat posting I mean she says exactly what the other player says, almost word for word. As I pointed out.

Yes, I was scum that game. However I have rolled town in this game, and I have actually made an effort to not rephrase / repeat what others have said.

I started off by asking a few questions to generate info during RVS (Why Frogster didn't vote during RVS, why discussion became general)
I then pushed Redados and called him scummy twice. I was also being aggressive towards Redados. I also made reads on several players.

Frogster, what do you mean by me being "disruptive" to the communication of town? Because I believe being aggressive is a good trait to scumhunt and find information.

[shellyc]

Initial impressions #3
- I don't get why both frogster and Mush say we should keep pressure low, because if we aren't actively pushing players, what do we do? Wait for scum to misdirect us? I don't think Redados is lynchbait, they are my biggest scumread as I said before.
- Frogster made a huge wall and expressed thoughts on everyone, which is slightly townie to me. I still have a null read on them.
- Italiano expressed a townlean on mush, a slight townread on Redados and a scumread on me... I haven't been repeat posting. They thought Mush's push was geninue, but questions my push? This is contradictory. Still, I don't know how much of that is AI.
- Mush posts poetic walls and scumread Redados. They also pointed out correctly that my questioning wasn't pointless. They then said they weren't going to be as aggressive as me. I want to put them as town for now for their town-ish vibe to me and how we have similar reads.

[Frogsterking]

I haven't posted today and this is probably it for me today. Caffeine withdrawal is kicking my ass. I'll be back to high activity tomorrow.

In the past I would do worse after day 1, but I've gotten rid of a lot of life stress so my play should be more stable. Also, I'm a lady and I have a homeless person background, so ... you're not really on point with me. Nice cold reading, though.

To be clear: I think keeping pressure low is a good idea to get initial engagement, and then you can dig into that deeply. Since so many are so confused, I'll give the game away: if you're too intense too early and not everyone has checked in and established a pattern of interaction, they get to pretend like they're just playing a quiet game. Once you establish a pattern of interaction, you can press on pattern changes instead of just flailing at a nearly empty corpus of posts for one user. Who might not respond to you, if they just post a single line of near-zero content garbage once a day or so.

Now that I've said it, I'd keep my eyes open for it in the less active players so far. I like to have meat to chew on, I don't like having to get reads on an empty history.

Anyway, I have a headache like someone implanted a nest of centipedes in my frontal cortex and I am exhausted. Talk tomorrow.

Thanks! And I completely agree with the advice here, Mush.

Thanks for the big post, Frogster!

Now both you and Mush have alluded to keeping the pressure low early in the day. I agree with the idea of not lynching until we've used all our time. But by saying, "we'll keep the pressure low", we don't LEARN anything. No one is going to care that they are being pushed because the pressure is "supposed" to be low. So I'm not really following this train of thought other than to say that I agree that we should use all of our time.

- I don't get why both frogster and Mush say we should keep pressure low, because if we aren't actively pushing players, what do we do? Wait for scum to misdirect us? I don't think Redados is lynchbait, they are my biggest scumread as I said before.

Be patient, learn about the other players, discuss setup mechanics, give scum more chances to make mistakes, double check your reads.

Frogster, what do you mean by me being "disruptive" to the communication of town? Because I believe being aggressive is a good trait to scumhunt and find information.

I think Mush explained what I was thinking very well about this in his post I quoted above. If we are town it's usually better to let the scum force the interactions because it gives us a chance to figure out what they are up to and identify them. If you are scum you're hoping town will tunnel a lot and create a lot of noise which helps you hide and look for potential weak spots.

Frogster's description of me almost perfectly matches his description of himself, ironically enough. I happen to be 27, live in Ohio, and his description of me thus far is similar as well. You wouldn't happen to care for some Skyline Chili... would you?

Yup!

[Redados]

Prefacing by saying that this is probably NAI at this point, but I was curious so I assumed everyone else would be too:

Post count -
loz:

0

ItalianoVD:

7

shellyc:

14

Redados:

23

rocknil:

1

MUSHSHAGANA:

16

MagikHorse (SE):

7

Tatsuya Kaname (SE):

2

Frogsterking (SE):

4

[shellyc]

Be patient, learn about the other players, discuss setup mechanics, give scum more chances to make mistakes, double check your reads.

Information instead of analysis? that's a scumtell.
Town want to scumhunt, scum want to pose as town. The intristic motivation of town is to find the scum, and push other players. I hard disagree that tunneling would create noise and disrupt our scumhunting. Scum forcing the interactions doesn't help us identify them.

[Redados]

If we are town it's usually better to let the scum force the interactions because it gives us a chance to figure out what they are up to and identify them. If you are scum you're hoping town will tunnel a lot and create a lot of noise which helps you hide and look for potential weak spots.

I agree with Shelly. I think that if everyone is active and engaged, that lets us get more information about who the scum is. If you try to let scum force the interactions, how do you know that the scum are the ones forcing the interactions? Quiet scum is scum we can't catch.

[shellyc]

The other pushes on me are fine but I am not a fan of Shelly's push on me.

Actually, why don't you like MY push compared to other players' pushes on you? Italiano also said the same thing, and I'm curious why.

[ItalianoVD]

@MagikHorse Redados answered it perfectly in 73. Call it paranoid or whatever but I definitely do not feel comfortable disregarding Shellyc. I will be suspicious of her unless she flips town

Lol @Frogsterking as long as she’s happy I guess. And you are correct I do have a career in sales. I am also a psychology major so there’s that. Are you sure you haven’t had a bit of psychology or sociology in your history. Your assessment is pretty spot on.

I am logical and analytical. While some may see this as a good thing, it has bitten me in the butt more than I’d like it and it’s probably because of my biggest flaw, which is overthinking.

On using the full allotted time for the day 1 lynch, after playing 3 games I’ve come to the conclusion I don’t really like Day 1. I get the premise and it makes sense, but after everything is said and questions are asked it does get boring and dull. I’m not against it and I will participate, but don’t be alarmed if I eventually get annoyed and just want the day to end.

[ItalianoVD]

Yes, I was scum that game. However I have rolled town in this game, and I have actually made an effort to not rephrase / repeat what others have said.

I started off by asking a few questions to generate info during RVS (Why Frogster didn't vote during RVS, why discussion became general)
I then pushed Redados and called him scummy twice. I was also being aggressive towards Redados. I also made reads on several players.

Call it anxiety or paranoia, but I’m not gonna feel comfortable with you until you are flipped and we know what your true alignment is.

I haven't been repeat posting. They thought Mush's push was geninue, but questions my push? This is contradictory. Still, I don't know how much of that is AI.

I didn’t question your push. I’m not even really uneasy about you because of your push. It’s really because of our recent history. And can you really deny the similarities of 23 and 34 and say that I shouldn’t be wary of it.

[shellyc]

Oh so just because I smashed town makes you paranoid of me? And just because I missed a post and posted the same thing you suspect me? I don't want you carrying grudges from one game to the other to affect your read on me.

I am town and I will flip town. If I have to flip to prove you right I will willingly champion my own wagon. I just don't get why you are so paranoid about me.

[ItalianoVD]

Information instead of analysis? that's a scumtell.
Town want to scumhunt, scum want to pose as town. The intristic motivation of town is to find the scum, and push other players. I hard disagree that tunneling would create noise and disrupt our scumhunting. Scum forcing the interactions doesn't help us identify them.

I don’t have a problem with this post. I like it.

If we are town it's usually better to let the scum force the interactions because it gives us a chance to figure out what they are up to and identify them. If you are scum you're hoping town will tunnel a lot and create a lot of noise which helps you hide and look for potential weak spots.

I agree with Shelly. I think that if everyone is active and engaged, that lets us get more information about who the scum is. If you try to let scum force the interactions, how do you know that the scum are the ones forcing the interactions? Quiet scum is scum we can't catch.

I agree, the only problem is everyone is NOT going to be active and engaged and I think what MUSHSHAGANA and Frogsterking are saying makes it better for town because there’ll be some type of cohesion, what scum don’t want. This should also kill off apathy which is what scum do want. I’m for it, just hope we don’t have to take the full 10-day allotment.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Quick check in before i crawl back into bed:

1: If there is no information, there's nothing to analyze. The important part is to have information to analyze in the first place. Right now, for instance, we have 4 users who have less than 5 posts. One has posted nothing, two have posted nothing of value. We know at least one of those who have contributed no information of worth HAS to be town (maximum 2 scum), and therefore we have no idea if all the scum are fundamentally inactive or if they're among the three players with more then 10 posts -- or both (one in each group), or neither (one of the 3 players with 4 to 9 posts).

There's no way to narrow things down currently, so information over analysis is literally the only right answer until we have enough information to actually do any analysis on. We can't compare or contrast. We can't work out a readslist. It's far, far too early to talk about wanting information being a scumtell.



2: Your push, Shelly, is the only one that seemed like real pressure to build a wagon. Everyone else is questioning decisions and motivations, working out rationalizations, and requesting explanations.

No one else is accusatory yet. Your push was accusatory in tone and, interestingly enough! was almost entirely based on your personal feelings about Redados's play rather than taking into account motivations from scum and town perspectives. Which is unique so far as well, everyone else is making pushes that have escape hatches (because that provides us information on their playstyle that we can later compare and contrast... playing a long game, which is very much a town game).

Long story short: you said you had no intent to eliminate, but that's not how it read at all. Your push was more intuitive than analytical, more cornering than informative, and more provoking action than inviting discussion. No one else has done that.



Whole lot of posts while i was writing this, my typing's definitely slowed down some. I'll read them tomorrow.

[shellyc]

@Italiano Ok I am accustomed to playing aggressively as my mafia experience is from chat mafia, but I get what you're saying: so we don't burnout and everyone can have a consistent chance at saying their thoughts.

@MUSH why do you think contributing without value is a scum tell? Because scum could be active. Lurking is anti town, but sometimes things happen in life and you don't get to post as much as you like.
I get how you may think we don't have info to analyse. I don't want this thread to escalate into an argument about playstyles.

Yes I said the words "DIE MAFIA SCUM!" and had an intent to push, but I did rationalise things. I clearly stated why I thought Redados was scum:
1. His RVS banter was being anti town and goofing around doesn't help us get info
2. He was being overly defensive to my pushing
3. He discredited my questioning

However I now may reflect my read in light of the current posts Redados has made. #81 was useful for comparing the activity levels. Yes... you may say that's NAI, but I feel like this is a protown thing to do.

Well I don't think pushing early is anti-town or anything. Do you think "provoking action" may be a scum action to do? I had no intent to eliminate, if you think I am being aggressive excessively I will reflect my play.

[ItalianoVD]

Oh so just because I smashed town makes you paranoid of me? And just because I missed a post and posted the same thing you suspect me? I don’t want you carrying grudges from one game to the other to affect your read on me.

I am town and I will flip town. If I have to flip to prove you right I will willingly champion my own wagon. I just don't get why you are so paranoid about me.

You said all this last game. I don’t think our back and forth is helping the town here. The players don’t have the context we do and it just seems like useless bickering. Plus you’re not gonna persuade me to think differently so we might as well just move on.

[MUSHSHAGANA]

And a quick note that I strongly dislike Frogsterking's take on my request for more time to gather information.

Letting scum force interaction is a quick way to a town loss. The loudest people are going to have the majority of influence on player opinion, whether it goes the way they want or not.
(Example: EVERYONE has an opinion on what me, Shelly and Redados are saying. No one is talking a lot about MagikHorse or ItalianoVD.)

I strongly disagree with forcing scum to take up the reins of driving discussion. I do not want that. I want enough information to understand who is doing what. From there, day 2 and onwards becomes comparatively easy, because when someone interacts and it doesnt match up, you have a thread to pull on. Right now we have /nothing/ for multiple users.

[shellyc]

(Example: EVERYONE has an opinion on what me, Shelly and Redados are saying. No one is talking a lot about MagikHorse or ItalianoVD.)

I did express a null Italiano read and a slightly town MagikHorse read.

[ItalianoVD]

Finally got back home to see a whole lot of fluff before I've even gotten a chance to play. I hope this isn't going to be one of those all fluff no stuff games.

I don't like the lack of RVS vote from Frogster though. Even if it's not much a vote is still the only way for town to make any headway, especially at this stage of the game. As an SE he should know that.
VOTE: Frogster

Is this you leaving RVS or are you giving an RVS vote off the lack of an RVS vote?

[ItalianoVD]

...If we are town it's usually better to let the scum force the interactions because it gives us a chance to figure out what they are up to and identify them...

How would we do this? What would we be looking for? How would we tell the difference between town forced interactions and scum forced ones? I’m not sure if forcing interactions is AI.

[shellyc]

Initial Impressions #4
loz - The silent person. Not a single word from ya.
ItalianoVD - I think their push on me is genuine emotion and paranoia. I am putting them at null and slightly leaning town. They have produced productive content - see #71, but haven't said too much, so this read I'm unsure of.
Redados - They were my stated scumread. Still not looking too townie, and I am placing my vote on them for now. Would be nice to see a full response. Their recent posts have made me want to change my mind slightly though.
rocknil - One RVS post voting Mush. Time for everyone to be talking!
MUSHSHAGANA - They are the towniest person in this thread. They correctly stated that my questioning wasn't fluff. They responded to my IIoA finger of suspicion at Frogster decently and also made a good point responding to Frogster's "letting scum force the interactions."
MagikHorse - Their enquiry about if I had gained info from the questions seems a town question. They also stated that I didn't "repeat post", which is true. Also pushed Redados for their RVS antics. They seem a competent player, but I will put them at null leaning town for now.
Tatsuya Kaname - Made one substance post questioning Redados' RVS goof. Once again, they have only posted twice.
Frogsterking - Posted a big wall making reads, which I like. Also a mind reader apparently. They were spot on - I do have experience in the arts. The "let scum force interactions" is off though - forcing interactions is NAI. Null read.

ONE MORE THING - how do you link posts lol, I have literally no idea

[Nahdia]

Vote Count 1.02

Redados (2):

Tatsuya Kaname, shellyc

shellyc (2):

ItalianoVD, Redados

MUSHAGANA (1):

rocknil

Frogsterking (1):

MagikHorse

Tatsuya Kaname (1):

Frogsterking

Not Voting (2):

loz,

Frogsterking

, MUSHSHAGANA

Deadline is in

(expired on 2020-08-25 15:51:33)

, at which point we will default to no elimination.

With nine players alive, it takes

five

to reach majority.

Note:

Sending a prod to loz.

[Frogsterking]

...If we are town it's usually better to let the scum force the interactions because it gives us a chance to figure out what they are up to and identify them...

How would we do this? What would we be looking for? How would we tell the difference between town forced interactions and scum forced ones? I’m not sure if forcing interactions is AI.

Examples:
a) A couple players are townread by everyone and at a crucial moment a random player that wasn't helping very much throws a bunch of dirt at one of the townie players.
b) A player lurks or coasts until later in the game (like lylo) and then suddenly becomes very active, and their viewpoints seem to magically align with one or two of the town players.
c) A player may be reliant on using an emotion such as anger as a cover up to explain their choices. If maf are forced to out a read when there isn't something to emotionally react to and this is the only tool in their toolbox they won't look authentic.
d) A player seems really pro town but they keep taking the game in strange directions.

The concept I'm picturing is that these situations here occur organically because of the mafia's win condition and don't require town to tunnel or be aggressive. In fact being overly forcing as the town player might make it easier or unnecessary for the mafia to make difficult choices here.

Finally got back home to see a whole lot of fluff before I've even gotten a chance to play. I hope this isn't going to be one of those all fluff no stuff games.

I don't like the lack of RVS vote from Frogster though. Even if it's not much a vote is still the only way for town to make any headway, especially at this stage of the game. As an SE he should know that.
VOTE: Frogster

Is this you leaving RVS or are you giving an RVS vote off the lack of an RVS vote?

This is my RVS vote.

@MagikHorse Redados answered it perfectly in 73. Call it paranoid or whatever but I definitely do not feel comfortable disregarding Shellyc. I will be suspicious of her unless she flips town

Lol @Frogsterking as long as she’s happy I guess. And you are correct I do have a career in sales. I am also a psychology major so there’s that. Are you sure you haven’t had a bit of psychology or sociology in your history. Your assessment is pretty spot on.

I am logical and analytical. While some may see this as a good thing, it has bitten me in the butt more than I’d like it and it’s probably because of my biggest flaw, which is overthinking.

On using the full allotted time for the day 1 lynch, after playing 3 games I’ve come to the conclusion I don’t really like Day 1. I get the premise and it makes sense, but after everything is said and questions are asked it does get boring and dull. I’m not against it and I will participate, but don’t be alarmed if I eventually get annoyed and just want the day to end.

Yes I do have a psychology background! And I can empathize with disliking d1. My theory is that scum dislike d1 even more than town do and getting the d1 right as town is like eating your veggies.

And a quick note that I strongly dislike Frogsterking's take on my request for more time to gather information.

Letting scum force interaction is a quick way to a town loss. The loudest people are going to have the majority of influence on player opinion, whether it goes the way they want or not.
(Example: EVERYONE has an opinion on what me, Shelly and Redados are saying. No one is talking a lot about MagikHorse or ItalianoVD.)

I strongly disagree with forcing scum to take up the reins of driving discussion. I do not want that. I want enough information to understand who is doing what. From there, day 2 and onwards becomes comparatively easy, because when someone interacts and it doesnt match up, you have a thread to pull on. Right now we have /nothing/ for multiple users.

Be patient, learn about the other players, discuss setup mechanics, give scum more chances to make mistakes, double check your reads.

Information instead of analysis? that's a scumtell.
Town want to scumhunt, scum want to pose as town. The intristic motivation of town is to find the scum, and push other players. I hard disagree that tunneling would create noise and disrupt our scumhunting. Scum forcing the interactions doesn't help us identify them.

If we are town it's usually better to let the scum force the interactions because it gives us a chance to figure out what they are up to and identify them. If you are scum you're hoping town will tunnel a lot and create a lot of noise which helps you hide and look for potential weak spots.

I agree with Shelly. I think that if everyone is active and engaged, that lets us get more information about who the scum is. If you try to let scum force the interactions, how do you know that the scum are the ones forcing the interactions? Quiet scum is scum we can't catch.

It seems important to clarify that by keeping the pressure low early on I wasn't promoting passive play I was promoting cooperation, less anxiety inducing situations etc., followed by applying pressure later when you've found an ideal target (if necessary.) It also seems important to clarify that by letting mafia force the interactions I was promoting the idea that as town we don't need to throw dirt and create conflict

1)

early on

2)

just for the sake of getting reactions. It seems like we agree about this in general except for shelly.

I see that you feel I misrepresented what you were saying Mush and I apologize for that and it was unintentional. I feel like in general we are on the same page about best play for town.

I also wanted to point out that making scum force interactions does help to identify them. In a game where neither of the scum players are getting townread and the town is getting along the scum will be forced to make something happen eventually or they will be lynched. I think that identifying forced interactions vs organic interactions is a foundational concept of this game. My thoughts are that if you as the town start tunneling someone to see how they react the scum don't need to force anything to happen because you are doing it for them.

At the moment I am most interested in hearing more from rock, Magik and Redados. I also find it hard to imagine a universe where I'm voting for Mush on d1.

[Frogsterking]

Here's a useful resource I found for the mechanics of the setup. https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=83092

I think the sample size is too small but it provides material worth speculating on.

It appears that scum newbies have the most difficult time handling this setup out of any group, which seems logical.

It appears that configurations in the A and B groups are heavily town sided (with A2 and B3 as exceptions presenting poor results for town but also an even smaller sample size) and the C group appears more balanced than townsided.

The average length of real life time for games that ended on D2 was 15.9 days I believe.

Also, Shelly, I am just copying and pasting the links from the address bar at the top of the web browser to the box I'm typing in.