Cyclic Experimentation Set x02 - [Game Over]

[wazzatron]

My job isn't to convince you you're scum, (which you will never admit to), but to convince others you are scum.

So when exactly are you planning on doing this because i am still waiting for the case and considering this day vig has to be used soon i think you should place a case now.

[Junpei]

RedCoyote: The fact that there was 6 scum in last game and no one has mentioned that fact until now is very interesting. I wonder how Furc knew about it.'

Chkflip: It's an experiment, just to see if I get one of those chances to use it to catch scum. Also you are hallucinating, I don't like RVS, and I never have. Furthermore, if a townie passion is what makes someone town, then you should be able to see if someone has it, otherwise you can't make reads based off of it. Therefore my request was not stupid.

[Junpei]

Also, how did you know about kdub's claim by page 8?

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Stringer

The exchange between Junpei and Furc around post 620 raised my suspicions on Junp. Furc (shockingly) makes an absolutely solid point in 621 about the number of his scum reads and Junpei’s assertions that they were ‘bad’. Junpei basically dodges answering and employs dismissive sarcasm as a defense.

--

In light of the claims that have been made the following addendums are being made to the Day 2 claiming process.

Both Kdub and Stringer are also to claim who they passed to. In case you aren’t clear why – the Hider ostensibly can’t be Nightkilled so there is little harm in that information being made public for confirmation. Kdub’s power will be made public by the Daykill anyway so again … no harm in public confirmation.

Stringer is also to claim who he hid behind N1 on Day 2.

--

Sinestro is lurker scum –

696 / 697

folllowed by no content pretty much solidify this.

--

This sounds like a scum ability in my opinion as it allows for scum to circumvent the poisoning and keep an ability on themselves for 2 Nights.

There is no such thing as a Scum power. Powers are randomly distributed.

The power is not very Town friendly. That said the Two shot element and the later links that scum would have to make in claiming the use of the power on their partners doesn’t put it in ‘Super Danger Land’ for me.

--

@Kdub: I don't like what your doing. You put the day vig ability in danger.

This is a horrible point. The public nature that Kdub has claimed for the Dayvig (it must be posted in thread) means it was automatically in danger when used.

@MoI: What is the benefit of keeping the hider ability in-game?

A Hider is a medium to very strong power in the hands of Town, depending on if Kdub is using the standard version or a variation.

The ability to make a Townie immune to Nightkill is very useful late game if we have more than one ‘confirmed’ Town. Add in the Cop element and there is no reason to get rid of it just because.

Add in the fact that scum probably can’t get rid of it at Night unless they get lucky (shooting the Hide target) means that even if Stringer is scum he has to establish links to other players if he has the power and will die if he can’t support actually having it. There is no reason we should kill him via lynch or Dayvig … no matter how scummy he has acted.

--

The lurker bushes are always a good place to find scum.

This is a good point. Large Theme Games suffer from lurker-scum much more than smaller games.

--

And now you are saying that fourseen is the kind of player you vig. What happened to your scumread which was strong enough to be ridden all day?

What is this? Are you trying to suggest you don’t Vig scum-reads?

--

NP for his inconsistentency in his scum reads.

Please support this assertion.

--

Lol. What is "much"? A cop confirmed guilty? If you got one of those, speak up.

Seriously, you're like that kid in class who walks in when Nietzsche is being discussed, without having read the source material, and then trying to offer your opinion or conjecture about what he says. You're ignorant.

If you really think nopoint is town, read his iso, make a town case, and then we can all look at it and judge it. That's what I did with forseen, and you will notice there is no longer a wagon there. Nopoint wagon is doing fine.

Dismissive and insulting needlessly? Check.
Further refusal to support the scum read on NoPoint with anything other than generic language? Check.
Asking people to justify Town reads when unwilling to justify scum read? Check.

Scummy

--

The first thing that springs immediately to mind when I read the Junpei/ML argument is the thought that I usually decry such things as Town v. Town,

Zang tell detected.

Also you’ve never supported your supposition about why Junpei is scum based on his multiple scum reads. I think you were hoping I would gloss over that.

Also, workdawg dropped a scum tell before he replaced out.

Since the vote count is going to be reset based on Kdub’s shot (I'm assuming here) you can have my vote for now.

VOTE: Ghostlin

Junpei: Game in question is on going.

Then your meta in question is unusable at this stage and may be unreliable if you don’t actually know Whisper’s alignment in said game.

--

no this is not why that is taking what i said out of the thought I HAVE A TOWN READ ON DRUNKEN PIPER, and i am allowed to scum hunt and i will be on a liable wagon soon i believe you could all do some more scumhunting yourselves though.

1. Is your assertion that I specifically am not scum-hunting?
2. You certainly are allowed, and encouraged, to scum hunt. The fact remains that you can scum-hunt without placing a vote via questioning, comments and accusations. At the stage of the game we were at when I posted getting a lynch was paramount to Town’s needs. Placing a vote somewhere unproductive was not Pro-Town in the least.

--

1) I don't view it as dead just yet, but I will likely be switching to Stinger, many people would vote for FC I"m sure, as he is useless and scummy
2) No it's not scummy, and if you think it is, then call me 'scumtastic', there is no reason for FC's wagon dying other than other people showing up as scummy and FC fading into the background. That's not a good reason.
3) Furc is scum, yes. I believe there's a post around here where I"ve ISO'd him and said he's been mostly useless and that he's a great lynch. But FC is more blatant and unlike Furc, he flatly contradicted himself.

1. Well then your view is incorrect. Whether this stems from Stubborn Town Syndrome or scum motivated behavior I am not clear on.
2. The wagon faded in significant part because several different players vocally spoke out against it and were persuasive in their assertions. It’s scummy that you ignore this and pretend it disappeared only for other reasons.
3. Please point me to that post so I can review it. Thanks!

MoI, make a comprehensive case on Stinger, the reason is to show how and why you are committed to this wagon as much as you are.

In light of what has happened over the weekend I’m going to decline this request. My reasoning is already well documented in thread. If I deem it beneficial Day 2 (pending Night results and my living that long) I’ll do so.

My irrefutable case is here

It’s not irrefutable. It’s been refuted several times. Why do you insist on terming it in that manner?

Is this what we are going bananas over keeping? This role is pretty bad, in my opinion, unless we direct it, which is still bad. If he's scum he'll just say he visited a townie or a scum pal (pure wifom) and thats why he lived, if he's town then he has a chance of death wherein we learn nothing, and a chance of life wherein we have to lynch him to get 1 clear for not likely a long period of time.

This role doesn't seem like something we should stall a wagon over.

This is horrible analysis. In this set-up Investigative powers and Protection powers are at a premium since they can be passed and thus results known immediately. Downplaying the strength of a role with both elements borders is either stupid or scummy.

--

As for nopoint's claim, I'm inclined to agree with Toog. It's a marginal town ability but a useful scum power. I have no qualms with shooting nopoint based on the claim, but I'll wait another day or so to let other people weigh in.

I want you on record – do you think NoPoint is scum? If so why would you consider shooting him? I don’t care that this is a ‘Double Day’ or not … the last game it was used as a 'Double Day' it was disaterous.

--

At that point, I counted 3 other people willing to join the diddin wagon (including me and Kdub already voting). If you have a different count, please say so.

That being said, I take no pleasure from sitting on a wagon all by my lonesome. I do not have the captial (nor the will really, diddin just pinged my gut more than the others on the list) to get this moving either.

So let me get this straight – you saw some middling support for lynching the diddin / chkflip slot and jumped onto the 1 person ‘wagon’ understanding that you didn’t actually have the ‘game capital’ to make it a meaningful wagon at this stage of the day?

[wazzatron]

VOTE: Stringer

VOTE: Ghostlin

no this is not why that is taking what i said out of the thought I HAVE A TOWN READ ON DRUNKEN PIPER, and i am allowed to scum hunt and i will be on a liable wagon soon i believe you could

all

do some more scumhunting yourselves though.

1. Is your assertion that I specifically am not scum-hunting?
2. You certainly are allowed, and encouraged, to scum hunt. The fact remains that you can scum-hunt without placing a vote via questioning, comments and accusations. At the stage of the game we were at when I posted getting a lynch was paramount to Town’s needs. Placing a vote somewhere unproductive was not Pro-Town in the least.

1. I've bolded it for you.
2.what's the best way for you to scumhunt? i'll answer for you with your vote. Also it may have been "paramount" in your opinion however i don't believe it was i was happy to change at that point was 3 day's before now (4-5 days to deadline) and i believe that there would be time to change my vote,

Do you Disagree?

also i have to ask is there a reason you voted both stringer (top of post) and Ghostlin (just above quoted) in the one wall?

[Kdub]

I want you on record – do you think NoPoint is scum? If so why would you consider shooting him? I don’t care that this is a ‘Double Day’ or not … the last game it was used as a 'Double Day' it was disaterous.

I think he's got a better than average chance of being scum. Purely based on gameplay, he's below SB in scumminess, but given the claims, I'm not going to second guess myself when it comes to killing him if that's what you're after.

I checked with the mod and the vote count does reset after my shot.

[Ghostlin]

MoI: #490, which was the last thing you posted about my Junpei read and also saying you understood my reasoning (or rather the 'core of my reasoning') was answered in #530. I dislike the implication I didn't answer your questions/didn't have a valid case because you're not paying attention/didn't like it.

Your 'Zang tell' is bunk, and I can hardly defend against what the previous player of this slot did in all of four to five posts before he left. Your vote on me is stretching, particularly since you accuse another player of trying to throw an investigate role away. So...what's your case again?

[MagnaofIllusion]

1. I've bolded it for you.

So you bolded the word all. My question still remains – I am a part of all. Am I not scumhunting? If I am who do you refer to with the generic all?

2.what's the best way for you to scumhunt? i'll answer for you with your vote. Also it may have been "paramount" in your opinion however i don't believe it was i was happy to change at that point was 3 day's before now (4-5 days to deadline) and i believe that there would be time to change my vote, Do you Disagree?

Yes, I disagree with a number of elements.

1. The best way to scum-hunt is to question suspects, build cases and point out scummy behavior. There are more scum in the game than you have votes for. Of course voting for scum suspects is an important part of the process, but in the case of an impending deadline (4 days when I posted the original comments) destabilizing a viable wagon on a candidate just to vote for another players with minimal votes is not Pro-Town.
2. Voting at the very last minute is not Pro-Town. Let’s use Stringer as an example. Say you vote in the last day for him and he reaches a level where he needs to claim. He claims as he did (Hider). What now? You either lynch said role (Not Pro-Town in this set-up) or panic and wagon another player with very limited time left. Which will can lead to three things – a lynch without a claim, a No Lynch, or a lynch on a claim that is Pro-Town. None of those are necessarily good for Town. You need several days of lead time to deal with the possibilities claims present.

also i have to ask is there a reason you voted both stringer (top of post) and Ghostlin (just above quoted) in the one wall?

Stringer was intented to be an unvote and I blew the tag and missed it on review. Clearly given my commentary that was the obvious answer. What is your interest in that anyway? Do you think it is scummy to vote for multiple people in one post?

--

I think he's got a better than average chance of being scum. Purely based on gameplay, he's below SB in scumminess, but given the claims, I'm not going to second guess myself when it comes to killing him if that's what you're after.

Thanks. I just wanted acknowledgement from you that he was an actual scum read at this juncture, even if it wasn’t your top scum read.

--

MoI: #490, which was the last thing you posted about my Junpei read and also saying you understood my reasoning (or rather the 'core of my reasoning') was answered in #530. I dislike the implication I didn't answer your questions/didn't have a valid case because you're not paying attention/didn't like it.

No, it isn’t. From

544

-

I’ve bolded the important point – you show no indication of actually seeing if Junpei ever has played with DGB. And the rest of this stance looks to me like you are attacking what could clearly be a playstyle clash as ‘contrived’.

So you only take issue with three of the seven reads?

Onwards – you didn’t answer the other important part of my post – asking you what elements of that actually are scummy in your thinking re: Junpei's reads.

Also I asked this direct question in

490

–

So Junpei’s seven scum reads you found are – DGB, Toog, Stringer, ML, diddin, Fourseen, Sinestro.

Do you think having seven scum reads well into Day 1 in a Large Theme game with 25 initial players is unreasonable? General rules of thumb puts total scum (all kinds) at 6 to 8 depending on the setup.

Do you think any of the reads are unreasonable or unsupported?

In

530

I don’t see any answers as to the bolded.

Again for the record – what specifically about Junpei having seven scum reads Day 1 is scummy? That was the thrust of your initial attack. Is it the volume specifically? Is it that 3 of his seven reads you think are unreasonable? The assertion then is that 4 of his seven reads are reasonable / supported.

Your dislike doesn’t concern me in the least. You didn’t answer direct questions. Thus I called you out on that.

Your 'Zang tell' is bunk, and I can hardly defend against what the previous player of this slot did in all of four to five posts before he left. Your vote on me is stretching, particularly since you accuse another player of trying to throw an investigate role away. So...what's your case again?

Actually my Zang tell isn’t bunk at all. It’s proven out fairly consistently to be a good indicator of scum intent. It’s stronger early in the game (Day 1) before still has application later on. Zang calling Jack / myself TvT in Stardust Mafia and Spyrex calling Fate / me TvT on Day 3 of the recently ended Video Game Mafia Upick are just two example off the top of my head.

I don’t care if you can’t defend you predecessor – his sins are yours. They just don’t magically wipe away because you replaced.

Care to explain how my vote is stretching? In a game with the strong possibility of multi-scum that you are trying to use my suspicion of Junpei as absolving you of being scum is rather comical. Scum in multiscum love to scum-hunt the other side.

I’ll put together a formal case on you here in the next day or so since you asked

so kindly

in such a defensive manner.

[Ghostlin]

I've seen at least one game on this site where the Zang tell doesn't work MoI, it's pretty lazy scumhunting.

To answer your question specifically, in a 25 player game I find it odd that that you'd target 3 of the 7 most active players at the time---I believe you called me out on something similar when you asked if I didn't suspect whisper. Can you even tell me what this magical tell you used on WorkDawg is?

I only take issue with three of the seven reads, which is almost half of the reads, yes. If I took issue with more, I would of listed them.

That's my problem with your 'case' so far--two of your reasons you've listed so far are based on tells,

you've yet to explain one of them

, one I can't cite anyone else on the site except you using, and you've based the rest on questions I frankly didn't catch and have explained in less than three lines in the above. All while saying you understand my reasoning.

I could say you've dropped a secret scum tell in your last post, doesn't make it necessarly true. Also, nice and mature, refusing to restate a case.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I've seen at least one game on this site where the Zang tell doesn't work MoI, it's pretty lazy scumhunting.

Sigh. No tell is 100% accurate. That’s pretty much Mafia 101. This ‘I’ve seen an example where it didn’t work, therefore it’s crap’ is a poor argument. More times than not I have observed it as a valid tell.

To answer your question specifically, in a 25 player game I find it odd that that you'd target 3 of the 7 most active players at the time---I believe you called me out on something similar when you asked if I didn't suspect whisper.

So you are saying that suspecting active players is scummy? The players providing the most post and thus ostensibly the most content to dissect and analyse for scum intent? The players most likely to actively challenge suspicion? Why is it scummy? What is the scum intent?

Can you even tell me what this magical tell you used on WorkDawg is?

It’s clearly in my ISO – Posts 299 and 315 are where Workdawg’s Cognitive Dissonance regarding Crypto and MagisterLudi / Fencesitting on Stringer are found. I note your use of dismissive wording (using Magical as an undermining technique) in your response.

That's my problem with your 'case' so far--two of your reasons you've listed so far are based on tells, you've yet to explain one of them, one I can't cite anyone else on the site except you using, and you've based the rest on questions I frankly didn't catch and have explained in less than three lines in the above. All while saying you understand my reasoning.

The bolded ‘yet to explain one of them’ is rather bunk since I explained it back when I made the observation.

Your explanations (or lack thereof) don’t make sense from a Town perspective. I can understand your reasoning but that doesn’t mean I agree with it. You’ve failed to explain clearly why having multiple scum reads in a Large Theme game is scummy.

Your 'no-one else uses that tell' has the faint smell of 'Caught for the Wrong Reason' desperation.

I could say you've dropped a secret scum tell in your last post, doesn't make it necessarly true. Also, nice and mature, refusing to restate a case.

Where did I refuse to state a case? Just because I haven’t hopped to do it immediately doesn’t mean I will not do so. Misrep.

[Kdub]

Magna, what is your opinion of nopoint? Do you think it would be a mistake to kill him?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna, what is your opinion of nopoint? Do you think it would be a mistake to kill him?

I don't think he's scum. He's playing to his Town meta. Town NoPoint may not come off as the best communicator but he's providing reads and attacking multiple players. Scum NoPoint tends to power-lurk and avoid conflict.

I see this as Town NoPoint. Additionally his "Everyone on my wagon is scummy" posting as of late smells of Townie paranoia.

[Toogeloo]

Any player that formed a methodical wagon at some point today, that you have a scum read on, would be the best shot. Do not shoot Fourseen as whatever voters he attracted today regardless of flip will be largely indistinguishable for analysis. It would be closer to a policy vigging than informational. Wagons with conviction are the best targets so you can get a better read on the players that were for and against those lynches.

[PeregrineV]

In general, I agree with Junpei on the uselessness of the hider, especially considering the fact the role could be valid, but in scum hands, or it could be a ruse that won't be completely unraveled for several game days.

However, looking back at the wiki description, if the hider cannot be roleblocked, "all actions that target the Hider specifically will fail", then I'd rather see what information Stringer gives us.

Unvote: Stringer

@kdub- You can shoot a lynch leader, or shoot a lurker. I know that activity does not equal town, but active scum are more likely to be caught. Just hit scum and I'll be happy

@MoI- you keep saying two scum teams. I've seen nothing to indicate this. What are you basing this idea on?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MoI- you keep saying two scum teams. I've seen nothing to indicate this. What are you basing this idea on?

Correction - I keep saying there is a strong likelyhood of two scum teams.

It was one of the easiest fixes that was suggested at the end of X01. Having two scum teams as opposed to one team and a SK reduces (but doesn't eliminate) PoE since scum can pass to Town or other Scum. The slight change to the passing mechanics (allowing the pass but giving consequences to follow) actually bolsters my thoughts - a more limited scum team means a sacrifice is a bigger net cost to their faction.

Again - in 25 players it isn't unexpected for a 3-3 or even 4-4 distribution given the set-up.

In the end once we get some Night results and a flip or two we'll have a better idea.

[MagnaofIllusion]

RedCoyote: The fact that there was 6 scum in last game and no one has mentioned that fact until now is very interesting. I wonder how Furc knew about it.'

You wonder how Furc knew that there were 6 scum last game? He played in that game as part of a hydra. Also, it's pretty public knowledge given you can go look at the thread. Why is it interesting to you?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why I Think Ghostlin is Scum

–

Elements from Workdawg

–

A few reads so far.
Crypto is working his way back to town IMO. He' active and stirring things up. I'm a big fan of that generally.
MasterLudi is rubbing me the wrong way. Refusing to explain tells is annoying.
Stringer is mildly suspicious... but I'm not sure it's very much.

This is the post that dinged my scumdar and began my back and forth with Workdawg.

Here he gives crypto Town cred for being active and stirring things up. Nothing outwardly wrong with that.

Then he dings MagisterLudi for refusing to explain tells. He specified that this meant this means Magister calls someone scummy but refuses to say why. Which is what Crypto had been doing all during the day. Crypto was asked about his vote on me by someone and never elaborated. His elaboration on why warrior was scummy can be summed as gut.

So it’s Cognitive Dissoance – MagisterLudi is scum for a behavior that he wants to completely ignore in Crypto.

The fence-sitting on Stringer is based on my Stringer as scum read.

Elements from Ghostlin

–

In post 391 Ghostlin presents his replace-in reads.

He calls out the following people –

Fourseen – He attacks him for his vote / unvote of Crypto.
MagisterLudi – He attacks post 264 and shows how all six paragraphs are incorrect on multiple levels. Also says that 265 is ‘backwardsly hypocritical’
Warriormode – That he is opportunistic for his vote on Toogeloo for giving out ‘anti-Town’ information
Sinestro – Attacks his use of sheeping as a scum-tell in 284 and says his scum-hunting is fake (or lacks actual scum-hunting)

Who does he vote? Junpei because he has ‘too many’ scum reads and in this one game Fate had reads like that also and they hung him and Fate was scum.

So he’s provided reasons for all the above listed players (and note he calls out at least 5 players as suspect which doesn’t really jibe with his ‘too many scum-read’ stance) but votes Junpei for Fate-meta. And poor Fate meta at that since Fate plays like that all the time. In essence his problem with Junpei is a single game of a different player.

I find that scummy.

1) Because the guy who's FoSing everyone active I have a really hard time believing is Town.

2) Because he's not really got enough votes yet and I want to draw attention and discussion that way.
3) Because even though I believe you may be scum, Momma always said to choose your battles.

Number 1 is highlighted. This is the core of his case on Junpei. Note the language choice (hyperbole on the number of suspicions of Junpei).

Also, in review I don’t like Number 3 much either. Why avoid pressuring MagisterLudi (who he thinks is scum) because he wants to be smart and ‘choose your battles’? That shows survivalist tendencies (doesn’t want to attack a player he might find daunting) and is antithetical to the process of finding multiple scum in a large game.

So...MoI, you're saying it's OK behavior for someone to have eight to ten running scumreads at once, versus you know, five or six intelligent scum reads? Because the first is bluntly what I'm accusing Junpei of. If that's true, then you and I have different definitions of scummy behavior.

Here begins my questioning of him regarding his Junpei is scum read. We’ve already discussed how Junpei only actually had 7 reads of possible scum (8-10 was again hyperbole and is not really much different than Ghostlin’s initial list of 5).

Ghostlin then never addresses how having multiple scum reads on Day 1 of a Large Theme game is inherently scummy / shows scum intent. Referring to a single Fate game isn’t evidence … it’s cherry picking a situation that suits his reads.

Now at 558 Ghostlin opens up his ‘Furc is scum’ attack. This brings his ‘scum reads Day 1’ to six. Which again conflicts with his stance on Junpei. And he votes him.

And at this time he moved from a wagon of five (Junpei, who before his vote shift was tied with Stringer for the top wagon) to a wagon of two including his vote. At that point the game was within 5 days of the original deadline and no-one was near lynch. Hardly seems like the voting behavior of someone who has an honest scum read on a candidate (Junpei) and wants to make sure he sees his lynch through.

Review Ghostlin’s ISO – he really doesn’t push Junpei at all after voting him. In fact the only reason he revisits his vote is due to my questioning when Junpei directs questions his way.

Because for this particular Day 1, I like kicking as many wasps nest as possible; it's another player that's not getting the exposure he should.

Plus, Fourseen's acutally still playing this game.

Should push come to shove, I'll get on a more poplous wagon.

I bring this up for two reasons –

1. To again highlight the Cognitive Dissonance in Ghostlin’s play. Here he says “I like to kick as many wasp nests as possible”. The message here is that spreading around suspicion where you think it needs to go is a Town mindset. But this directly conflicts with his stated “Junpei has too many suspicions, I can’t believe Town takes that approach” stance.
2. The bolded is interesting – why does activity have anything to do with Fourseen’s being a good lynch when you called him scum earlier?

I acutally don't agree with the nopoint/SB wagons enough to not lynch them as a compromise, and if I were to jump somewhere, it'd be on ML or Junpei, which I've already received flax for one.

He’ll jump to MagisterLudi who he hasn’t questioned or scum-hunted since his initial replace in. And who at this point had two votes and wasn’t a viable wagon 4 days to deadline.

That brings us up to date with Ghostlin’s reaction to my calling him scum was very much outsized.

[FourseenCircumstance]

I really wish I had of played in the first cyclic X01. I will have to go reread how that game ended up turning out, to gather a feel for how this Game will work out.

[Furcolow]

MoI that could be balanced with a recruiting mechanic

[Furcolow]

It's not right to outguess the mod here. It could just as easily have mason/cult aspect as easily as 2 or 3 scumteams. It doesn't help to give scum something easy to talk about. In fact, it detracts from scumhunting, so please stop the setup speculation.

[Furcolow]

My ability is a secret ability, even to me
This is going to be good

[Furcolow]

My ability gives an ability which will be an ability at a later date
it is unknown to us
it could be protown or proscum to lynch me on this information
I almost want to vote myself because of this, to be honest

[Furcolow]

It could be like a vaccination or something, like a baker though, which would make me necessary for survival to a given party.
Who I pass to tonight will be crucial on that person surviving the game, potentially.

[Furcolow]

Not pass to* i mean to say who i use my ability on
It is called Motivator
I wish I knew what it would grant

[Furcolow]

Upon reanalyzing my role PM, I feel comfortable claiming, because we don't know what my ability does exactly