Mafiascum.net

fferylt, i'm sorry about posting that stuff. I didn't mean to upset you and you know I have no interest in the stalker stuff. my bad

No worries. I've PMed Nexus to see if it can be removed when it's no longer relevant to this game.

I am going to check in Nacho/Syr/ffery meta in games that they hydra'd with each other which will hopefully give me a better idea of their affiliations.

@ Nacho, can you explain your ffery town read to me in more detail. So far, I only have the stubbs vote as a reason.

In post 746, fferyllt wrote:there are some Stubbs posts that have weak links to oriole

Like what?

- Reread ffery, crossed my Ts and dotted my Is. This is the town ffery that has come to play with us today. The strongest towntell for me is the excessive interaction with Syryana; ffery tends to avoid those types of things as scum unless she absolutely has to do them, and Syryana who lurks and occasionally disappears isn't someone who I'd expect her to buddy up hard to as scum. There's also a couple of small subtleties that I pick up on and I appreciate a lot; I liked fferyllt's questioning of Stubbs in #160 and #171 just because she asked a question in Stubbs's reads list, slept on it, asked another question about the same post later which shows her rereading and digging through the old parts of the threads. Response to her townread by Syryana in #197 is good and natural; in Mafia Xenologue when Oil Tycoons declared a townread on her, she literally disappeared and let Cabd talk to us for a while, so the fact she handled it so nonchalantly is a good sign. I like the Stubbs vote not only because of similar smooth Syryana interactions, but because the trajectory on it was good; her comment on CDB's Stubbs-case shows that she was leading up to that vote, which I liked.

- I thought her early game interactions were very town and followed pretty much to a T what I'd expect from town Amrun, especially with the LnGrrr suspicion early on. Heading the attack on Stubbs under CDB's banner was town as fuck, though; I've never seen scum lynch scum using night kill analysis (I've seen them try to lynch town, though). Then there's the LnGRREEEWWAAR$RR death, which would be a mislynch she had set

and I'm so town at this point that it's actually funny that scum can't even kill me unless they want to leave Jason alive, which is even FUNNIER. (This doesn't happen often, so let me revel in it, okay?)

Is additionally town as fuck to the point where if I had any doubts I would wipe them all away.

I've seen F-16 scum in a few places, and this isn't it. For in thread reasons and in thread reasons alone, he's town for attacking Stubbs's JOAT claim as he comes into the game, his reads are players are crazy comprehensive and he's been one of the players in game that has put serious, serious effort into gamesolving. He's very receptive to comments about his reads, he drew on nexus's other games for a strong (and accurate) analysis of other games, and has sealed off his options so solidly as scum that he's gonna have to pull off some wild readflips in the future in order to pull a win off. He's very likely town.

Twin JOAT claims mean that jason-scum isn't really worth considering. I also have an idea here that I'll get into in a sec.

I liked #131 a lot, actually. Jumping on a strong scumread early is extremely rare for Rach-scum, so it's reassuring to see her push a good scumread early. Her approach to Marquis is practically a mirror of how she approached him during Con Mafia. I like #603 (maybe all adult characters are PRs?) not necessarily because of its accuracy, but because it doesn't seem like something Rach would come up with to attack a scumbuddy at all. Her observation about F-16's role making him even townier than he already is is a good observation; it's likely that scum don't have a PR in addition to Basilisk & JOAT, so if F-16 needed any additions to his town town townness, there's that.

As of now, I think that MSG's paranoia on ffery is probably real and he is probably town (thanks to ffery's latest read on him). However, fferyllt's main reputation is for a good towngame, not a good scumgame, and why I usually find paranoia a towntell from people who are from that forum because it's a ballsy move to draw specific attention to themselves. The problem is that most scumgames that succeed around her in those sites are scumgames that incorporate paranoid of ffery into the equation; I fooled her in a chat game essentially by acting paranoid of her, steadily ramping up that paranoia when she wasn't around, then fakeclaiming a cop innocent on her to finally pull myself off. Buldermar managed to get past her by faking paranoia of her and eventually got her mislynched. Most people off-site tend to play their games around her, whether they are town or scum. Here's MSG pops in every once in a while to express paranoia of ffery and vote where he's supposed to, but there's not really a moment where he works around her; the only time he asks for her reads is to make sure that her read on Syryana is solid. I definitely agree with ffery in that his paranoia seems like paranoia seems like town paranoia, but I have a healthy respect for off-site scumgames and the progression on his read on ffery would not be impossible to pull.

Toomai's a player who sort of fell behind, his reads are OK, but he's never really pushed them in the least bit (except for a tiny push on JW over Stubbs ), and hasn't really shown the same level of scumhunting that he showed in Newbie 1324. In that game, he was willing to call out logic he didn't agree with, push a top suspect very strongly, and when he was lost, had the knowledge to follow players he trusted. Here, there's no signs of that; there's a couple pushes on people for not being that active, but nothing more.

I think that penguin is likely scum, but I don't think she's the lynch for today since she can be confirmed as town with a Basilisk lynch today. I currently think she's scum because of a few weird pushes (Squilly push for one, Stubbs for two).

In post 442, penguin_alien wrote:Not sure I'll be able to post in this thread again before deadline, so voting my strongest scum read.

VOTE: Stubbs

In post 538, penguin_alien wrote:

In post 533, LnGrrrR wrote:@Jason,

Here's the plan. Either scumhunt, or give results, or no protection for you, because you haven't done one towny thing yet this game.

@Rach, what are your current reads.

@PA, you had Stubbs and I as pinging scumdar yesterDay. Who is pinging now?

.

My thoughts on scum blocking Stubbs still stand from earlier. I don't think you're scum since, like I said, it makes little sense for you to start undermining CDB and then NK him. Maybe if he was a threat to others on your team and flips bear that out, but it's a point against you being scum. Your hop on Toomai is lazy, but not necessarily scummy, and it does seem to have prodded him into activity.

MSG spends a lot of time asking for other's opinions in a way that comes off as him looking for someone to sheep blame-free. He almost never gives opinions on other people's play; instead he asks them to see what they think of said people. I'd quote it from his ISO, but it's an easy read for anyone who cares to do so.

VOTE: MSG

This transition also looks weird to me. I understand the want to sort of figure people out, push suspects and all that good stuff but in this situation penguin has a strong scumread, puts the vote down at the end of the day and talks about it at the start of the next one: were you just trying to get him to be active?

small thought:
jason's voyeur is pretty much useless, but it can be used to confirm him as scum (since he's 100% not a scum JOAT).
F-16's fruit vendor is pretty much useless, but is a confirmable action that can be seen by voyeur, no? so jason sticks his voyeur down some place handy (preferably penguin_alien, so that other possible roles can use their action on someone who is not town). F-16 gives his fruit to penguin_alien OR someone else, jason claims what he saw. then f-16 or the fruit bearer can confirm/deny his claim; penguin has no real reason to lie or else she'll be power lynched the following day.

In post 755, Nachomamma8 wrote:small thought:
jason's voyeur is pretty much useless, but it can be used to confirm him as scum (since he's 100% not a scum JOAT).
F-16's fruit vendor is pretty much useless, but is a confirmable action that can be seen by voyeur, no? so jason sticks his voyeur down some place handy (preferably penguin_alien, so that other possible roles can use their action on someone who is not town). F-16 gives his fruit to penguin_alien OR someone else, jason claims what he saw. then f-16 or the fruit bearer can confirm/deny his claim; penguin has no real reason to lie or else she'll be power lynched the following day.

Bring it biatch, pick a target and i will tell you if they get fruited or not.

In post 748, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:1) How is Amrun in negative numbers? You have her as slightly below zero. Stubbs scumflip doesn't seem to have changed anything.

2) What is your reasoning for Penguin progressively becoming scummier and scummier after 570 or so until the end of your graph? I am interested in hearing your reasoning for that.

In post 749, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:My third question seemed redundant. What I wanted was your reads on other players in english.

1. I agreed with 36 (-2). I agreed with 85 and 203 (+2). I didn't like 266 or 385 (-2). I agreed with 575 (+1).
   No other posts have changed my opinion of that slot.
   The Stubbs flip didn't change anything (about this slot) because I don't know why it would change anything.
2. I liked 510 (+1). I agreed with 549 and 566 (-2). I didn't like 611 or 637 (-3).
3. Town
   : FFF, JW
   
   Weak Town
   : MSG
   
   Null
   : Nm8, ffll, Amr, RM
   
   Weak Scum
   : p_a

In post 754, Nachomamma8 wrote:In that game, he was willing to call out logic he didn't agree with, push a top suspect very strongly, and when he was lost, had the knowledge to follow players he trusted.

Claiming I successfully did any of this in any game is riotous, but okay I'll go with it - I see no logic issues or have any true top suspects in this game, hence why none of that is getting done.

I am not liking Nacho. I am going to read other Nacho games to see if there are any meta-patterns.

Toomai, I am worried that regardless of your affiliation, you are not actually reading the game as a whole but as individual posts. Amrun pushed a Stubbs wagon when nobody suspected either her or Stubbs, provided evidence for him being scum and pushed the wagon through. Leading a lynch on a scum player ought to have town-points. I'll check on your other graphs to see if you do the same thing and I'll get back to that.

F-16 you gonna maybe give penguin fruit?

[Dramatic overacting]Oh woe is me, all this WIFOM will be the obvious downfall for me[/Dramatic overacting]

Just pick a target, don't even make him answer a question like that.

In post 758, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:Toomai, I am worried that regardless of your affiliation, you are not actually reading the game as a whole but as individual posts.

Maybe after twenty or thirty more games I can learn how to do that.

In post 753, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

In post 746, fferyllt wrote:there are some Stubbs posts that have weak links to oriole

Like what?

Like Stubbs' first post in the game. That was either buddying or setting up a read on a partner. I now think buddying.

Then there was his reads list, with oriole at the top. He explains it here, saying he likes oriole's reads list and wants him to be town.

Post 240 he explains his first post, once again wants him to be town, and finally adds some explanation about why he likes the reads list. In post 241 he adds to that in reply to CDB's case.

He doesn't actually interact directly with the slot until MSG has replaced in and put down a vote in post 596. The vote happened as there was another momentum swing toward a Stubbs lynch. And that's the extent of his direct interaction with his strongest town read from early in the game.

Going back through this looking at it from the Stubbs side, it still pings. Factoring in MSG's posting, I think this was a cratered buddying attempt.

“Gotta bone ter pick with yeh. I've heard you've bin givin' out signed photos. How come I haven't got one?”

- Hagrid

Okay, I looked through Toomai's games yet again to see whether Nacho was right and in all of the games, the common pattern seems to be that he does occasionally push players, it is almost always responsive and reactionary. In Mini 1449 for example, he pushed on a suspect and questioned him. However, this was in response to someone else asking him for his read on a specific player. Most of his ISO involves answering questions directed at him by other players. He does follow other player's lead - he has in this game too. He wagoned Marquis and Stubbs.

In the game that he played with Nacho, he spent a lot of time defending himself and answering posts directed at him. He rarely if ever took a pro-active stance or pushed his scumreads. Nacho, can you explain exactly what you are referring to when you said that he was "pushing a top suspect strongly?" I see no push. He merely states his reads and joins wagons. As for willing to call out logic, he has been doing it so far on plenty of occasions. His play here matches his play as town very closely.

It is you I am concerned about. You come into the game with a catch up post that looks like you already decided who you are going to buddy with and who you are going to FOS. It is not balanced in any way. All your posts towards ffery, Amrun, and Rach for instance are overwhelmingly positive and understanding. Your posts towards Oriole/MSG, Toomai, and Penguin are negative, accusatory, and discrediting. For example, you say you like that ffery had the same townreads (Amrun, CDB, Feg) as you. Then you point out Oriole's post a few posts later and say that it doesn't have the same effect that ffery's post had because it came a few posts later.

I am not sure who Nacho's buddy is (most likely Penguin although I wouldn't rule out ffery), but I am leaning more towards Nacho being scum. The idea of lynching Toomai is rubbish. I haven't seen a thing that makes me think his posts, his behavior and his actions come from a scum motivation.

VOTE: Nachomamma8

In post 759, Nachomamma8 wrote:F-16 you gonna maybe give penguin fruit?

I don't see the point of this considering your plan hinges on me not revealing who I'll give fruit to.

In post 762, fferyllt wrote:

In post 753, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:

In post 746, fferyllt wrote:there are some Stubbs posts that have weak links to oriole

Like what?

Like Stubbs' first post in the game. That was either buddying or setting up a read on a partner. I now think buddying.

Then there was his reads list, with oriole at the top. He explains it here, saying he likes oriole's reads list and wants him to be town.

Post 240 he explains his first post, once again wants him to be town, and finally adds some explanation about why he likes the reads list. In post 241 he adds to that in reply to CDB's case.

He doesn't actually interact directly with the slot until MSG has replaced in and put down a vote in post 596. The vote happened as there was another momentum swing toward a Stubbs lynch. And that's the extent of his direct interaction with his strongest town read from early in the game.

Going back through this looking at it from the Stubbs side, it still pings. Factoring in MSG's posting, I think this was a cratered buddying attempt.

I agree with almost all of this. I got very similar impressions to you when I checked in on both their ISO's combined. I think it safe to say you think it is Toomai and Penguin scumteam at this point. Can you elaborate on why you prefer Toomai to Nacho?

I am still reading Syr's meta and I'll discuss both Syr's and Nacho's meta when I am finished. One thing I wanted to point out though was that Syr's raging hard on occured when CDB hard-FOSsed Stubbs. To me, to jump on a partner like that with an amazing degree of confidence seems like just the sort of thing Syr would do based on what I learned of him so far.

He'd certainly be confident enough to ask that you vote too because he knows it will be a scumflip. But the motivations behind his push would be that CDB as good as caught Stubbs and he wouldn't want to be left behind on getting credit.

His "I am not fucking touching that" with regards to the JOATs is a very general statement and puts him as far away as possible from having to directly defend Stubbs because he would be including Jason in that as well. In my opinion, he seemed to trying too hard to fall back on a policy "Power roles ought not to be lynched D1" as opposed to engaging with the actual information that was revealed. This adherence to a general rule maintains a lot of distance between him and Stubbs so he can't be blamed for Stubb's scumflip - after all people would simply believe that Syr didn't touch the JOAT claims because of the risk of lynching a PR D1.

I don't really trust my ability to sort Nacho quickly right now, though I think I am starting to get a handle on his play again. I feel like he's intentionally brought aspects of his scum game into his town game, and he sometimes doesn't want to be townread quickly.

Syr on the other hand, the one game he and I have played where he was scum, I did decide he was scum pretty quickly. It started here with my reply to Syr's quoted post. Sangres is a hydra of Nacho and me. My reply pinged for GiF and he immediately voted me. Two posts down, Syr continued our convo and the reply that drew GiF's vote didn't ping at all for Syr.

We've talked about the game since it ended, and Syr says that the post would not have pinged if he'd been town, either. But, I think it would have.

Other people called Syr scum for different reasons, and the reasons did bolster my own read. But, for me it came down mostly to my off-tone post and his non-reaction to it.

I want to see more Nacho posts.

I'm going to go through some of Toomai's games tonight. I put meta'ing him aside because he has no scum games.

Rach, what is your gut saying now?

Still think Minions is scumz

Getting a bit concerned about Syr who said he was not going to replace out, then disappeared off the planet.... This is not like him to just flake out. However that is a much weaker read due to it could be RL issues and not his alignment.

but yeah Minions is scum...

In post 767, RachMarie wrote:Still think Minions is scumz

Getting a bit concerned about Syr who said he was not going to replace out, then disappeared off the planet.... This is not like him to just flake out. However that is a much weaker read due to it could be RL issues and not his alignment.

but yeah Minions is scum...

Wrong game maybe? Nacho replaced Syr.

ughhh right lol

Thats what I get for posting with a massive headache bah

(this is in addition to the toothache)

Nexus can you sub me out please.

Sorry guys, I'm not having fun an y more. My fault, no one else's.

In post 759, Nachomamma8 wrote:F-16 you gonna maybe give penguin fruit?

You proposed a plan that's somewhat dependent on scum not knowing whether it's going to be implemented; why would you press for confirmation?

Toomai, can you explain in your own words what you think has been scummy about my play? I'm apparently your strongest scum read, but as it stands you're approaching the game like you're strictly an observer, unable to influence anything. It reads most like a townie who knows he's town and sees his only role as documenting a case rather than being involved, but it could come from awkward scum.

Any comments on your strongest non-PR claiming town reads? Because there's a difference of about 6% between your top town reads and top scum read; at what point do you consider your graphed reads to be significant?

Alright I'm done with this badgering. Full reread coming up.

In post 760, JasonWazza wrote:[Dramatic overacting]Oh woe is me, all this WIFOM will be the obvious downfall for me[/Dramatic overacting]

Just pick a target, don't even make him answer a question like that.

Target is still penguin. The question was making sure he was acknowledging what we were doing.

In post 764, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:Nacho, can you explain exactly what you are referring to when you said that he was "pushing a top suspect strongly?" I see no push.

lolguy and nintendo pushes, mostly. lolguy was an early game push and he pushed the hell out of that; someone posted something he agreed with and he immediately voted him. He left voting lolguy/nintendo for a little while to try to "shake himself of conf-bias", and he wasn't afraid to follow a vote onto a wagon when he agreed with the case. Contrast that to his behavior around stubbs, where he thought about the case while he was on V/LA, came back, still didn't push it or definitively agree with it; he's practically been afraid to use his vote this game where he didn't really have a problem using it before.

In post 764, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:It is not balanced in any way. All your posts towards ffery, Amrun, and Rach for instance are overwhelmingly positive and understanding. Your posts towards Oriole/MSG, Toomai, and Penguin are negative, accusatory, and discrediting. For example, you say you like that ffery had the same townreads (Amrun, CDB, Feg) as you. Then you point out Oriole's post a few posts later and say that it doesn't have the same effect that ffery's post had because it came a few posts later.

I have a tendency to attack strong suspects in a catchup as soon as they are formed, and this particular catchup was made after I lost my initial one. I defend strong townreads strongly in most situations, and I tunnel strong scumreads. I'm only willing to express doubts on either of these stages in middle grounds; oftentimes, town do really town things when they perceive your read as one of two extremes.

The oriole point in particular is because that set of townreads from another player means a different thing entirely. I hydra with ffery and play a shit ton of games with her, and I know things that she would see as town. Her picking up on these things and announcing them in thread are good because it feels like she's trying to sort the game in the same way I am. Oriole coming up with those townreads, however, is more suspicious; by that time, someone had already deposited reads in thread, so oriole is sheeping someone else's reasoning. I also don't use differing reads as a scumtell for players unless I know them pretty well; a strong attack on me from this point by someone like Rach would be far different than if ffery were to attack me.

In post 769, RachMarie wrote:ughhh right lol

Thats what I get for posting with a massive headache bah

(this is in addition to the toothache)

What are your thoughts on this game?

F16: you really don't see any possible scum motivation in backing off of ffery when it becomes clear she won't be lynched, on focusing on her alone and ignoring the rest of the thread.

Toomai: when Stubbs flipped scum, what did you think?