Mafiascum.net

Reading tonight. Can someone please tell me why exactly is Grib a townread? Thanks!

↑ NJAC wrote:Reading tonight. Can someone please tell me why exactly is Grib a townread? Thanks!

↑ Green Crayons wrote:2. Grib's posting looks like solid town. He's catching things and articulating ideas that I am having upon reading the thread. Suggests that we're approaching the game from the same alignment mindset.

His early game play was shaky, and Riddle had a perfectly adequate line of early game suspicion.

His middle game play (relative to D1) was solid town, as noted in my quote above.

Since then, there have been a few things that he has posted that have stood out to me as questionable, but it could equally be town or scum being comfortable in the position of being labeled as town by a large segment of the active players.

↑ Green Crayons wrote:

@Ranger:

1. It's not "manipulative" to "pretend" that you were shifting the burden of proof.

You did shift the burden of proof.

You identified the reasoning from the 5 Mala posts that you thought made her apparently town, and then asked swag to show that you were wrong by explaining how those 5 Mala posts made her scum. This was a false dichotomy, because you could be wrong even if the 5 Mala posts didn't make her scum, but simply wasn't probative of her alignment. That's how your Post 739 reads, period.

2. lol @ you trying to conjure up this distinction between

"do these posts make Mala scum"

and "

is Mala scum

"?

They are the same question.

Mala had only 5 posts, and therefore the answer to both questions would look to the same 5 posts. This is you muddying the waters with valueless arguments - here, coming up with a distinction without a difference.

Those were not the questions I'm drawing a distinction for.

The questions I'm drawing a distinction for are "why do you think Mala is scum" vs "do you think Mala is scum."

The first has the assumption you are accusing me of - unjustifiably assuming that Mala is scum instead of null and asking WiS why she is scum?

The second is merely a base question with no assumptions. He could reasonably answer that he wasn't reading Mala as scum without having to correct any assumptions.

"Have you stopped beating your cat?" vs "are you beating your cat?"

The first needs to be corrected with "I have never beaten my cat." A no would assume that the listener has beaten her cat before.

The second can be answered with just a no.

↑ Lone Ranger wrote:The first has the assumption you are accusing me of - unjustifiably assuming that Mala is scum instead of null and asking WiS why she is scum?

You're just making things up at this point. I have never accused you of "unjustifiably assuming that Mala is scum instead of null." In fact, I said something just about completely opposite of that.

I accuse you of forcing swag to disprove your Mala-town read based on 5 posts by having to explain how those 5 posts make her scum (Post 740, Post 742).
I accuse you of making a false dichotomy that Mala's 5 posts make her either scum or town, when there is the other explanation that her 5 posts aren't alignment indicative (Post 742, Post 747).

-----

Moreover, your distinction between the two different questions is unnecessarily confusing. Yes, there is a difference between a "yes/no" question and a "why" question in the most literal understanding of the form of the question. But if your defense - which I'm not really following how it's actually a defense other than simply creating a new argument about what you were "actually" asking, and therefore distracting everyone from your original post - is that mafia players will answer yes/no questions with only yes or no, and will not be expected to justify their response with a why, then your expectations of how mafia is actually played fails to understand just basic human interaction.

Getting back to your original post:

↑ Lone Ranger wrote:All this while, you've ignored the actual reasons I gave for reading Malakittens as town. Do you want to talk about them because that's what I'm interested in.

Do the posts that Malakittens made make you feel she is scum?

You invoked your reasons for finding Mala to be apparent town based on her 5 posts, asked swag to comment upon your reasons, and then immediately asked swag if those 5 posts instead made Mala scum. You clearly connected your justifications (the why) to whether Mala is scum, and posed in the form of a question to swag. You did this after saying that Mala was town. You were therefore stating that Mala's 5 posts made her apparently town, and then put the burden of swag to prove you wrong by showing how your justifications were wrong by way of Mala being scum.

-----

UNVOTE: Fairies
VOTE: Lone Ranger

Your suspicions are on people I'm reading as town, you've been attempting to cast my play as suspicious from the get-go, and you make things unnecessarily more complicated as a defense mechanism.

Who am I suspecting that you are reading as town?

↑ Lone Ranger wrote:VOTE: I Love Fairies

Elle is my second choice. Riddleton, Cheetory, Davesaz, Corpses and maybe GreenCrayons are townreads.

↑ Lone Ranger wrote:

↑ elleheathen wrote:Soooo 'RVS' and no reason whatsoever for other reads. Noted.

Not what I said. How did you get "RVS" out of "her first post looked scummy?"

Not providing reasons don't mean I don't have them.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Elle

↑ Lone Ranger wrote:AwesomeUsername is scum. I don't know if he is scum with or without Elle yet. But he is scum. Thinking of switching there.

↑ awesomeusername wrote:

Kaboose's case on elle make sense, I do think she is uncomfortably self-aware in general. I can see where Cheetory's coming from, too, saying she jumps on easy things.

I feel pretty "meh" about elle though.

Like, she certainly could be scum and I'd be up for an elle lynch if nothing else jumps at me,

but it's not really clicking for me.

↑ awesomeusername wrote:

Re: the Ranger/elle debate, I really, really like Cheetory's remarks. The whole "forcing an argument" thing does make the argument feel like an attempt to get townreads.

Could just be the power of suggestion though. I found myself nodding along with Ranger more often than with elle - mostly because elle seemed unnecessarily hostile and posturing. Lines like "Do you typically like to wait until deadline to lynch - or just as scum?" (377) make me wonder why elle waited until 395 to vote, too.

It struck me that elle acted differently towards Ranger than I remember her acting towards other people, almost immediately. It looks like her voting history goes swag -> awesome -> swag -> Ranger (which is fewer people than I expected and doesn't support Cheetory's argument that she attacked lots of easy targets), and I know several people have voted her, but I didn't remember elle bristling like this before. I can see a few similar moments in her ISO, though. I need to meta elle to figure out whether this is just playstyle.

@elle: Is my understanding correct that you're scumreading Ranger for 1) not revealing the reasons for her reads and 2) bringing a bad attack on you?

@swag: Why do you think elle and Ranger are the same alignment?

dave's jump onto the elle wagon pinged for me at first but looking back his trajectory on elle seems fine.

The amount of hedging in this post. I've used red and green to highlight it is highly unlikely to come from town. This entire wall is completely meaningless except to say that Elle might be scum but Elle might be town and Ranger might be scum but ranger might be town. Oh, and Cheetory's remarks are good! Town doesn't talk like this. Town may be uncertain, may be unsure, may be confused by a back-and-forth debate even. But not this. It is meaningless nonsense.

↑ Lone Ranger wrote:If Elle is scum, Kaboose and Swag are who I suspect most.

↑ Lone Ranger wrote:A glance through Kaboose's ISO confirms my suspicions that Kaboose is scum, probably with Elle. His mentions of Elle before his recent wall are minimal and could easily be faked by scum.

↑ Kaboose wrote:

↑ elleheathen wrote:

↑ davesaz wrote:

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:

davesaz wrote:If not, I'd like you to at least look over Elle and tell me what you think of her play thus far.

219 and 236 look reasonable, but there isn't really enough said to get a full read.

What do you think about my defense of you in #238?

Do you think I'm more likely to be scum trying to buddy you with it or town not wanting to see you lynched because of it?

Why do I hate this question? Like, why are you looking for a confirmation from just one person for a town or scum read? I just I don't know, I'm probably not smart enough to put it in to words but this question here just does something to me inside.

↑ Kaboose wrote:

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:@Elle, I had a line of questioning for you, but I feel like the response wouldn't be informative.
Basically, it seemed to me like:

Elle wrote:

Cheetory6 wrote:What changed between then and now?

My read, obviously.

Was implying that you were scumreading him rather than trying to sort him, but the followup in response to me seemed more geared towards you saying that you were trying to sort him again. Realized on reflection that asking you about it wouldn't really yield anything productive because "oh I was just saying that I wasn't townreading him and am now nullreading him" was likely to be your response regardless of what your alignment is.

Let's go somewhere else from here. What do you make of Kaboose's softpush on you?

Oh good someone brings it up for me!

What did you think of the post of hers I quoted? I don't know what to make of it but it seemed weird.

↑ Kaboose wrote:

↑ Cheetory6 wrote:

Kaboose wrote:

elleheathen wrote:What do you think about my defense of you in #238?

Do you think I'm more likely to be scum trying to buddy you with it or town not wanting to see you lynched because of it?

Why do I hate this question? Like, why are you looking for a confirmation from just one person for a town or scum read? I just I don't know, I'm probably not smart enough to put it in to words but this question here just does something to me inside.

I see the scum-motivation in trying to prod people for their reads on you so you can adjust your play accordingly, however, I've seen some townplayers do stuff like this in the last few games I've been in, so I'm more inclined to nullread this particular post.

I think I'm more troubled by how safe her play up until her push on Swag has felt, but I admit this is more of a tone argument on my part and I won't be surprised if nobody will listen to me on this point alone.

I guess it would be too obvious for a scum member to be like "If I said this, or since I said that, do you find it scummy or townie" but I just don't see why a town person who is scum hunting would make this a worry. Like do I worry that someone may read me as scum based on me trying to help solve the game? Sure, but I'm not going to be worried enough to stop what I'm doing to ask for confirmation before I proceed. Could you imagine if that's how we played?

Am I alone in my thought that scum are more likely to care about what they look like than a town person? Especially since there aren't any cops or doctors who need to alter their play a bit to make it to day 2.

I'm scum reading Dave, Elle, and still Corpses.

I will say though, maybe it's just me, but this game still seems to be suffering from a bit of holiday hangover. We need some more interactions in here to get people talking and slipping.

Grib! I'm starting at the top of the VC. Do you still find awesomeusername scummy and deserving of your vote? I'll research the answer myself, but if you get a chance let's talk about him. We have a bit of a connection, you're voting awesome, awesome is voting me. I think you also told me I was stupid once or twice in this game. I don't like you for that. Oh and I haven't forgot, I'm going to get to your Green Crayons inquiry as well.

There are three major mentions of Elle before his recent wall. The first is him calling Elle scummy for something that is completely null. The second is Kaboose excitedly asking Cheetory about his Elle suspicion eager to show that he had Elle as a scumread. The third is an elaboration of his scumread which is okay and fairly null.

My biggest issue with Kaboose is that his recent wall reeks of confirmation bias. He is acting like he KNOWS Elle is scum. He is quick to critisize people for considering that Elle may be town. He is quick to applaud and encourage Elle scumreads. He thinks Elle will get lynched today and is setting up for tomorrow. Who can he attack next as being partners with Elle? Who showed that slight hesitation that he can exploit to chain a mislynch following today's bus? Those thoughts seem to be pre-dominant in Kaboose's mind. The wall he wrote is so unnatural, it is downright ridiculous. I have never seen a townie post with the level of bias and confidence that he has posted.

Cheetory misunderstood my initial arguments even though I explained them to him several times. I cannot believe that Kaboose so miraculously understood all of them and see them as persuasive. My case against Elle is one that is unlikely to appeal to the masses. Cheetory's reactions and calling it nitpicking confirms my thoughts there. I think it would be moderately difficult for an objective outsider to break down what I found scummy about Elle. Kaboose's understanding here is alarming.

As for who to lynch, I feel Kaboose is on balance scummier than Elle. I will switch back if Elle is the lynch that is viable but I want everyone in this game to read Kaboose's wall. And anyone that is reading Kaboose as town should explain why. He is very clearly scum.

VOTE: Kaboose

↑ Lone Ranger wrote:

↑ elleheathen wrote:

↑ Lone Ranger wrote:Elle could be town. Her latest posts felt townish.

I felt the same about you with your unvote - because I had a hard time seeing that coming from scum.

But then the association with Kaboose came and I was like 'Oh, that explains it' because it felt like you were lynch-lining us which made your unvote make sense to me again. But arguing that is basically just saying I wouldn't have associated myself that way with Kaboose if I were scum but all I have to prove that is two games of meta, and meta can be changed.

So, here: White Flag.

I'll try and forget what I think about your not wanting to give me your reads as scum if you can at least consider for a moment that I may be town.

Who do you think is scum?

I don't get why it would bug you when I associated you with Kaboose though. My plan as scum in that case would be hop off of the Elle mislynch wagon, tie Kaboose to Elle, bus the shit out of Kaboose, and after he flipped scum, mislynch you for being his partner. That wouldn't make sense as a scum strategy at all considering your mislynch was up for the taking without bussing Kaboose as well. If Kaboose were town, tying him to you would be pointless as his townflip means my arguments are invalidated and I'd have to concoct new ones. It would be a far better scum strategy to consider options for who is scum if you are town, see the lynch through and then attack those people.

Awesome could be scum if you are town. The hedging makes a ton of sense from someone that wants to see a lynch through but not want to get their hands dirty.

GreenCrayons's latest posts worry me as well. His take on our argument roughly echoes majority opinion in the thread although I'm not sure I can point out specifics. The whole "their argument looks scumVscum" "tunneling" "too focussed on each other" etc. There are no new insights. There is also a lack of assertiveness and his take seemed a bit hesitant and wishy-washy.

Why are you attacking Green Crayons for what I brought up about you?

whoops, i was looking through your ISO, forgot about that. I had another point I was about to bring up but was saving it for when I got home. Guess I'll do it now

Kaboose and myself. Back when Mala was awesome, your points were valid but did not make him scum as you believed.

Grib - Haven't seen a read.
Cheetory6 - RubikAshtray - Talked to this slot, but haven't seen a read.
elleheathen - Attacked for being scum.
CorpsesInEthanol - Haven't seen an interaction with this slot.
davesaz - Can't remember an interaction with this slot.
Whatisswag - Suspected as scum if Elle flipped scum.
Malakittens - awesomeusername - Awesome was scum for sure at one point, but five posts from Mala has erased that completely to a town read.
Kaboose - Attacked for being scum.
Green Crayons - Attacked for being scum.
CptPicard - I Love Fairies - Attacked for being scum.
NJAC - Haven't seen an interaction with this slot.
Riddleton - Haven't seen an interaction with this slot.

Now please correct me, as now this is rushed to prevent me from needing to requote all those again. Point I'm getting at is that LR is getting close to scum reading everyone. This is either a scatter gun VT, or scum trying to muddy waters as best they can.

Edit to 759 - You've said Grib's name once in a passing by town read in response to Elle's list of town reads.

↑ Kaboose wrote:Why are you attacking Green Crayons for what I brought up about you?

I don't understand what argument you are referring to.

Edit to 759 - Cheetory - read town in LR's second post, and again in 425 which shows a concern about cheetory, but overall a town read. So yet another person looking suspicious even for a split second to LR.

↑ Lone Ranger wrote:

↑ Kaboose wrote:Why are you attacking Green Crayons for what I brought up about you?

I don't understand what argument you are referring to.

I'm the one who first mentioned that you came up with the miraculous town read on Mala after five posts, and yet all your attention went to GC and you never brought me up in all of it and I believe you were/are voting for me, but GC got all your attention.

↑ Kaboose wrote:Grib - Haven't seen a read.
Cheetory6 - RubikAshtray - Talked to this slot, but haven't seen a read.
elleheathen - Attacked for being scum.
CorpsesInEthanol - Haven't seen an interaction with this slot.
davesaz - Can't remember an interaction with this slot.
Whatisswag - Suspected as scum if Elle flipped scum.
Malakittens - awesomeusername - Awesome was scum for sure at one point, but five posts from Mala has erased that completely to a town read.
Kaboose - Attacked for being scum.
Green Crayons - Attacked for being scum.
CptPicard - I Love Fairies - Attacked for being scum.
NJAC - Haven't seen an interaction with this slot.
Riddleton - Haven't seen an interaction with this slot.

Now please correct me, as now this is rushed to prevent me from needing to requote all those again. Point I'm getting at is that LR is getting close to scum reading everyone. This is either a scatter gun VT, or scum trying to muddy waters as best they can.

If you are actually town here, please learn how to scumhunt. Getting into a theory discussion with you about why it is a terrible strategy as scum to attack everyone in the game is boring. Accuse me of something that's actually scummy and engage my interest.

↑ Lone Ranger wrote:

↑ Kaboose wrote:Grib - Haven't seen a read.
Cheetory6 - RubikAshtray - Talked to this slot, but haven't seen a read.
elleheathen - Attacked for being scum.
CorpsesInEthanol - Haven't seen an interaction with this slot.
davesaz - Can't remember an interaction with this slot.
Whatisswag - Suspected as scum if Elle flipped scum.
Malakittens - awesomeusername - Awesome was scum for sure at one point, but five posts from Mala has erased that completely to a town read.
Kaboose - Attacked for being scum.
Green Crayons - Attacked for being scum.
CptPicard - I Love Fairies - Attacked for being scum.
NJAC - Haven't seen an interaction with this slot.
Riddleton - Haven't seen an interaction with this slot.

Now please correct me, as now this is rushed to prevent me from needing to requote all those again. Point I'm getting at is that LR is getting close to scum reading everyone. This is either a scatter gun VT, or scum trying to muddy waters as best they can.

If you are actually town here, please learn how to scumhunt. Getting into a theory discussion with you about why it is a terrible strategy as scum to attack everyone in the game is boring. Accuse me of something that's actually scummy and engage my interest.

Why do you assume I was scum reading you?

I mean if you accuse me of doing a certain scummy thing X, then I can defend that I didn't do X or why it was justified.

You are accusing me of doing thing Y which is whole hell of a lot more likely to come from town than scum. That's a theory discussion. That's boring.

Pedit: It is implied from your response.

↑ Lone Ranger wrote:I mean if you accuse me of doing a certain scummy thing X, then I can defend that I didn't do X or why it was justified.

You are accusing me of doing thing Y which is whole hell of a lot more likely to come from town than scum. That's a theory discussion. That's boring.

Pedit: It is implied from your response.

I was attempting to town read you. But you clearly know better than me so I'll stop? I guess?

Please show me where I was implying you were scum.

I was going to eventually get to the fact that you're too all over the place to be scum. Even though you like speaking with phrases like "For sure" and others. You look to me like you have absolutely no idea what's going on. So I assume that would be because you're town.

↑ elleheathen wrote:I have no freaking clue who I'd want to see hang, at this point.
And I don't think there will be sufficient time before deadline even if we do get all the replacements to give me good feels on it.
Eughh.

You can't be indecisive forever. The deadline is frozen, you have no excuse. Pick someone. Literally anyone. I almost don't care anymore.

Holy shit, a new page appeared

brb

Eh, never mind.

[/b]

↑ Grib wrote:

↑ elleheathen wrote:I have no freaking clue who I'd want to see hang, at this point.
And I don't think there will be sufficient time before deadline even if we do get all the replacements to give me good feels on it.
Eughh.

You can't be indecisive forever. The deadline is frozen, you have no excuse. Pick someone. Literally anyone. I almost don't care anymore.

No, it was frozen for the weekend. Lookit it. Counting down. Right thur, above this. ^

Dundundun.

Okay, I'm going to make a few comments on picking the third Mason. I think it should typically be someone active, hard to lynch, someone that you are reading reasonably as town. Me, Elle, and GC are good candidates for that. Especially me and GC as I think it would provide a lot of clarity to the town and help make sense of who to trust among the more active voices among the town.

I'm fairly sure GC will flip scum. His approach of a line of questioning followed by a vote seems premeditated. I don't know how he managed to flick away the previous suggestions that he be masoned. There is very little downside to Masoning immediately and also Masoning an active voice among the town.

Now for the lynch: the only concensus I can reasonably see forming is on one of the inactive players. I have no strong scumreads outside of GC at this point so there's no one I'd push for. Corpses and Riddleton are the ones in need of replacement so if we are going to compromise there, I'd vote either to help the lynch go through. I'll re-evaluate their posts tomorrow. I'm leaning corpses. I had them as town early partly because I was reading Elle as scum. Not a huge fan of their push from a town-Elle standpoint. So, that's who I'm voting unless Riddleton gets a lot more votes.