Mafiascum.net

(Super towny thing for Strange to say, though)

The best part is, Strange, you don't even have to trust me today: if you decide I am a member of the mafia team, I encourage you to go ahead and vote me out. You will be unfortunately wrong, but you will know I am confirmed town in that case, and know that all my analysis was coming from a genuine place, and I want it to be followed.

The things I'm read from your greeting posts, catboi, are that 1. His early reads were weak, even for the beginning of day 1, but 2. His real seeming emotionality and 3. Sometimes implausible theories look like town and not scum behavior respectively.
I think I've had a difficult time engaging with emotional quality arguments in particular so far, given how subjective they are and all. I know it is more to conjure true-seeming emotions as scum, but in the same way you've argued that scum Val likely wouldn't argue for play he thinks is mechanically wrong, I think scum greeting could have had this reaction, for real, too. He tries to push for Igor, coasting on others' dislike of his posts, and is met with a pr claim. As scum, he knows the setup now. Outlining strategies for the other, potentially totally newbie, town pr is easy enough for him to do and try for towncred, and I know I considered him town at the time. When Val is put in the game and begins really explosively arguing with he and implosion, I think it's reasonable for scum to actually have deep seeded belief about what the mechanically correct route is, actually be upset by Val's debate style, and three, be annoyed that they're not being read as town for what they think they should be being reads as town for. There's also that MafMen and implosion are fighting Val here too, and it isn't for a page or two that the dust settles and Val gets a town read. Scum greeting doesn't have a reason to not get into the argument here, imo.
It's a similar situation with his reaction to your VT claim. Greeting went into this day talking about being unsure of the setup, Igor starts admitting to interesting lies, and then you vote him and say that he's lied again. Greeting might fully think that policy limming for lies there is good, and he might fully think that it'll be more convincing to others (because the atmosphere was more anti igor at the time he agreed with you). I don't think he's made not scum by his reactions here, and that his reasoning for pushing Val and Igor isn't strong, and that it's really convenient for scum if these players are limmed. I do not think his reads have improved through the game and I think there's a logical line from his more odd posts and theories to scum motivation.

In post 753, frogsfrogs wrote:The things I'm read from your greeting posts, catboi, are that 1. His early reads were weak, even for the beginning of day 1, but 2. His real seeming emotionality and 3. Sometimes implausible theories look like town and not scum behavior respectively.

There's significant points I've made beyond that and this is a serious glossing over on your part

It's not just the emotionality which can be faked but the specific act of threatening to self-hammer and sacrifice because of his confidence in his scumread, that act from a newbie comes from town far, far more often than not and that's something I can say because I've played in and read a fair number of games

There is also the fact that the of reads he is making are ones newb-scum just doesn't make, the information he's using, the fact that he called you out for lurking because he noticed your activity indicates a town solving mindset where he's trying to find any piece of information

like you're just trying to boil down what I say to the most reductive interpretation possible, it's super uncharitable

You wrote a whole bunch of words on how all of Greeting's play be coming from scum but didn't actually explain why it is more likely to be coming from scum than town

this is what scum does, it's scummy because there is no solving process behind it, you're not actually evaluating greeting, you don't care about anything I'm saying, you're not trying to weigh possibilities you're simply pushing Greeting because you say his actions be coming from scum, and anyone can make an argument about why someone be scum

I.. don't know what to say then. I feel like you're trying to convince me, myself, that I'm scum here, with no one else engaging & having written like 4/5 of my last posts in response to you. :I I think my summary and my response aimed mostly at why I I'm not convinced by what you're convinced by are completely appropriate when I'm reacting to your posts. I start to bring up positive arguments for him being scum at the end.
I think 430 and 582 are scummy. "Only the other PR knows what's true or not"??? Arguing that Igor's alleging mechanically impossible situations when he isn't? I think having changed his Igor read overnight is scummy, and that his weak read on you, and weak reads in general, is a bad sign at this stage. My read on him deteriorated through the end of day one as he stuck so hard to the Val argument and makes gestures like 279: "Well, if no one is convinced by each other, then the game is lost!" I actually do not think the self hammer declaration is nessecarily town AI and you've even noted as meta reads that greeting hasn't gotten as upset being voted as town, previously.

I am shredding your reasoning in plain view for everyone to see because you are ridiculously scummy and it is my goal to make that as clear as possible. It's not hard.

In post 756, frogsfrogs wrote:I.. don't know what to say then. I feel like you're trying to convince me, myself, that I'm scum here, with no one else engaging & having written like 4/5 of my last posts in response to you. :I I think my summary and my response aimed mostly at why I'm not convinced by what you're convinced by are completely appropriate when I'm reacting to your posts. I start to bring up positive arguments for him being scum at the end.
I think 430 and 582 are scummy. "Only the other PR knows what's true or not"??? Arguing that Igor's alleging mechanically impossible situations when he isn't? I think having changed his Igor read overnight is scummy, and that his weak read on you, and weak reads in general, is a bad sign at this stage. My read on him deteriorated through the end of day one as he stuck so hard to the Val argument and makes gestures like 279: "Well, if no one is convinced by each other, then the game is lost!" I actually do not think the self hammer declaration is necessarily town AI and you've even noted as meta reads that greeting hasn't gotten as upset being voted as town, previously.

Why do you think is the self hammer not necessarily Town AI?

In post 758, StrangeMatter wrote:

In post 756, frogsfrogs wrote:I.. don't know what to say then. I feel like you're trying to convince me, myself, that I'm scum here, with no one else engaging & having written like 4/5 of my last posts in response to you. :I I think my summary and my response aimed mostly at why I'm not convinced by what you're convinced by are completely appropriate when I'm reacting to your posts. I start to bring up positive arguments for him being scum at the end.
I think 430 and 582 are scummy. "Only the other PR knows what's true or not"??? Arguing that Igor's alleging mechanically impossible situations when he isn't? I think having changed his Igor read overnight is scummy, and that his weak read on you, and weak reads in general, is a bad sign at this stage. My read on him deteriorated through the end of day one as he stuck so hard to the Val argument and makes gestures like 279: "Well, if no one is convinced by each other, then the game is lost!" I actually do not think the self hammer declaration is necessarily town AI and you've even noted as meta reads that greeting hasn't gotten as upset being voted as town, previously.

Why do you think the self hammer is not necessarily Town AI?

EBWOP

In post 756, frogsfrogs wrote:I think 430 and 582 are scummy. "Only the other PR knows what's true or not"???

Why's that supposed to be scummy? From an uninformed perspective, Greeting as a VT wouldn't know what the other PR is and they would be the one that would have more information on if igorsprite is telling the truth or not

In post 756, frogsfrogs wrote:Arguing that Igor's alleging mechanically impossible situations when he isn't?

Okay, why does scum do that? Isn't it more likely that Greeting just straight-up misunderstood what igorpsrite was saying? I don't think, even in a world where he scum, Greeting tries to outright lie that igorsprite is alleging mechanically impossible situations, no one believes they can twist the truth that much. Far more likely he just thought igorsprite was actually saying that stuff. Which doesn't make him town from it but it's not really a scumtell at all.

In post 756, frogsfrogs wrote:I think having changed his Igor read overnight is scummy

Why is changing a read overnight scummy? Are you saying town can't have the capacity to re-evaluate and change their mind? That's absolutely outrageous. Being triggered by igorsprite changing his night action claim around repeatedly is a perfectly reasonable explanation for him flipping his read.

If you were trying to argue the read change was opportunistic, that might make sense. But...igorsprite is very obviously not a viable wagon, so why on earth is that read change , you leave that part vague, you keep pointing at things and calling them scummy but not actually indicating why any of it comes from being mafia-aligned

In post 756, frogsfrogs wrote:that his weak read on you, and weak reads in general, is a bad sign at this stage.

Why is that actually scummy? Town are often uncertain and confused because they are uninformed, and weak reads and uncertainty are a natural state to be in especially as the game drags on and arguments become confusing. With effectively no clears from his POV I would expect Greeting to have weak reads as town read now. The only reason I have strong reads is because I have been under pressure for almost the entire day, which has galvanized my view of the game, and because I have devoted nearly every waking hour to reading this game and trying to solve it, which has led me from my early state in the day of uncertain flailing panic to a confident solve

You yourself have said things about how you're not sure of yourself but somehow Greeting's uncertainty is a scumtell here? That doesn't add up logically.

In post 756, frogsfrogs wrote:My read on him deteriorated through the end of day one as he stuck so hard to the Val argument and makes gestures like 279: "Well, if no one is convinced by each other, then the game is lost!"

Why is sticking to an argument and making gestures about the game being lost a scumtell? You're doing this again, you just point at things and call them bad but can't actually explain it's scummy. Town can get stuck in an argument they're convinced of, and can get overblown and overdramatic

In post 756, frogsfrogs wrote:I actually do not think the self hammer declaration is nessecarily town AI

Both implo and I are speaking from experience in saying that the self-hammer declaration is town more often than not, we can't both be scum lying about this to defend a partner.

The counterargument you have made against this is "nuh uh". Which seems a lot like you just have a willful desire to call Greeting scummy for it. Which would come from playing to an agenda.

In post 756, frogsfrogs wrote:you've even noted as meta reads that greeting hasn't gotten as upset being voted as town, previously.

Okay, so what? I already assessed reasons that might be different this game.

Without a comparable meta-model of what Greeting-scum looks like and how he reacts to pressure, I can only observe that he is responding , not that he is responding , because games and circumstances change. It is entirely possible for him to still be town this game and be reacting in a more dramatic fashion because he feels differently about the game and his place in the gamestate.

All of this is just really, really, really bad, it's reach beyond reach, and frogsfrogs at no point actually tries to infer scum motivation in anything he's saying is scummy from Greeting. They just describe things Greeting has done and says they are scummy, no followup as to in any of it. It's a classic newbie-scum case.

hmm... i think that the mafia is frogsfrogs and val. i don't have a good reason for that assumption, but i think that they are helping each other too much. something that called my attention is that they voted for catboi 665 and thynhith 368

@implosion are you willing to vote for frogsfrogs or val?

In post 704, StrangeMatter wrote:

In post 702, Greeting wrote:

In post 672, StrangeMatter wrote:Darnit I was trying to get the page top. I got baited into saying it too early.

There's still one thing that's bugging me about all this Greeting talk, is what is the point Greeting is even trying to do with pushing Igor? Does he still think that Igor is scum, and just isn't thinking about the risks that come with this, because I don't feel like they actually have if I think they are town.

I am aware of the risks. Of course, it would be far from ideal if we vote someone who has a power role. But his carelessness fully assured me that, at best, they’re a Jester who will only serve as a distraction and essentially of no good use for town. They didn’t even use their supposed role Night One, because they thought they would be dead anyway. Or at least that’s one of their versions - not sure which one is considered to be the truth by others now.

Perhaps this can also be explained with my experience from N2081, where I actually held back town from eliminating a Jester-like player early in Day One thinking that they were, at worst, harmless. Ultimately, I was the one to hammer them and it turned out they were scum. This experience lessened my trust for players who are less invested or have an unconventional approach to playing the game.

I get that it would lessen your trust for players who are less invested, or have an unconventional approach to a game. However, it doesn't really make sense why you'd be fine with eliminating what you consider a Jester (I'm calling it wildcard though).

It's weird because it feels like you know they are an UnCCed PR, yet still continue to push that slot because it's a useless slot and more likely to flip scum?

I don’t understand your feeling. I’m VT, I had claimed VT before. I have no powers which would allow me to if someone is scum. All I have is my own convictions. And what I was saying was that I don’t think we would be very much at a disadvantage with igor gone, in the case that one of his claims is actually true.

I hope that this was just a misinterpretation and not an attempt to spin this into a weird direction.

In post 705, StrangeMatter wrote:Seriously it feels like you're set on Igor's elimination, and making a decision that just straight up hurts town more often than it does help.

In post 706, frogsfrogs wrote:

In post 703, Greeting wrote:@frogsfrogs Oh, and you asked about igor. Read my previous posts (and 702) - nothing has changed so far. They’re still trying to pull off the inexperienced newbie card to mask their previous lies. I just refuse to buy it. I hate to say stuff like this as I don’t like to drag people down, but at best he’s just a really bad player lacking any goal whatsoever other than artificial drama - in short, a Jester.

Can I ask how you determine "pulling the inexperienced newbie card" from actual newbie play? Are there any specific posts where you feel like he's actively leveraging his inexperience? Because I feel like I've only seen him argue that he knows what he's doing.
I think it's been clarified to you before. Igor's final answer on his night action is that he was roleblocked, and both reports that he made before were lies intended to scope out catboi.

I

don't think it was successful or a great play-- I understand how that damages his credibility--

but can't you see how that's at least consistent enough to be maybe true?

I can't get past how mechanically unreasonable it is for him to be called scum here. Even under catboi's setup 2c explanation, where there's a jk that does not know yet if igor is real or not, why do we dare vote igor today, on the chance that he's our real tracker?

review edit: yes, exactly what StrangeMatter says. I honestly consider it scummy to be still trying to argue for this, for your vote to still be on him. Scum would love for everyone to say "Yeah, wait, you're right!" and lim him without them needing to use an nk.

It is possible that one of his versions is true, but he really did nothing to win back my trust.

But there is something that rings my alarm bells and that is me being completely alone on his wagon. Let’s assume that I’m correct here and igor is lying scum. That would obviously mean that there is two players out there with town PR roles, and there’s a high chance at least one of them knows and can attest to the lie. They might have not chosen to CC but at least one of them should be on this wagon.

Which, unfortunately, probably means that igor’s claim about having some kind of town role is, in fact, true.

UNVOTE: igorsprite

Honestly just haven't been able to work up the motivation to read the large amount of text that i feel like I need to in order to properly read frogs at this point.

Val, I think I'm willing to vote for now.

(Also igor I appreciate that you're working with people in this way given how you were playing very opaquely earlier)

I imagine MafMen/Greeting may also be willing to compromise there.

VOTE: Val

734 makes me think back and wonder if Val has changed his mind about a major stance this entire game. It feels like he just said early on "i'm gonna townread implo and frogs" and is just never going to re-evaluate any reads. I feel like this game is really hard and his arc just doesn't lend credence to him thinking critically about people's alignments at this point.

I think I can trust catboi on this. I’ve never really let go of the idea of getting rid of Val. There are some lims that I wouldn’t be comfortable with but this one ain’t it for sure. I didn’t like his presence in the game from the very start and I can’t shake off the obviously subjective feeling that they managed to derail the whole game, but failed to really push it (even despite mine, MafMen’s or catboi’s opposition) into a meaningful direction.

VOTE: Val89

I will be returning back home tomorrow evening and I will surely look back at all his posts, but even if hammer happens before that, I am totally okay with it.

In post 763, Greeting wrote:

In post 704, StrangeMatter wrote:

In post 702, Greeting wrote:

In post 672, StrangeMatter wrote:Darnit I was trying to get the page top. I got baited into saying it too early.

There's still one thing that's bugging me about all this Greeting talk, is what is the point Greeting is even trying to do with pushing Igor? Does he still think that Igor is scum, and just isn't thinking about the risks that come with this, because I don't feel like they actually have if I think they are town.

I am aware of the risks. Of course, it would be far from ideal if we vote someone who has a power role. But his carelessness fully assured me that, at best, they’re a Jester who will only serve as a distraction and essentially of no good use for town. They didn’t even use their supposed role Night One, because they thought they would be dead anyway. Or at least that’s one of their versions - not sure which one is considered to be the truth by others now.

Perhaps this can also be explained with my experience from N2081, where I actually held back town from eliminating a Jester-like player early in Day One thinking that they were, at worst, harmless. Ultimately, I was the one to hammer them and it turned out they were scum. This experience lessened my trust for players who are less invested or have an unconventional approach to playing the game.

I get that it would lessen your trust for players who are less invested, or have an unconventional approach to a game. However, it doesn't really make sense why you'd be fine with eliminating what you consider a Jester (I'm calling it wildcard though).

It's weird because it feels like you know they are an UnCCed PR, yet still continue to push that slot because it's a useless slot and more likely to flip scum?

I don’t understand your feeling. I’m VT, I had claimed VT before. I have no powers which would allow me to

know

if someone is scum. All I have is my own convictions.

And what I was saying was that I don’t think we would be very much at a disadvantage with igor gone, in the case that one of his claims is actually true.

I hope that this was just a misinterpretation and not an attempt to spin this into a weird direction.

Partially, but not really a misinterpretation. It is entirely a disadvantage. We have two shots to eliminate Mafia, meaning we would be at a massive disadvantage already if we lose PR, and one of our shots.

VOTE: Val89

Which one of you scumbags are going to hammer me then, eh, or are both of you already on this wagon?

Stop, don't.

That's E-1, by the way, and I am a VT; before someone claims ignorance of that fact.

Pedit: No, lets. We know its catboi, lets flush out the partner.

.-.

In post 768, Val89 wrote:VOTE: Val89

Which one of you scumbags are going to hammer me then, eh, or are both of you already on this wagon?

In post 770, Val89 wrote:That's E-1, by the way, and I am a VT; before someone claims ignorance of that fact.

Pedit: No, lets. We know its catboi, lets flush out the partner.

May I ask what is the point that you are trying to make right now? I offered to hammer myself to get you down. You must have some kind of agenda to do this.

In post 770, Val89 wrote:That's E-1, by the way, and I am a VT; before someone claims ignorance of that fact.

Pedit: No, lets. We know its catboi, lets flush out the partner.

if you're trying to "flush out the partner" isn't it a much better idea to... y'know... force two more people to vote for you rather than just one?