TM2012 - Closed Normal(Over!)

[Porochaz]

@ Poro: Haylen, and the reasons can be easily found by a double-ISO of me and GreyICE.


Ciao

Uber, isn't doing that as such, he's posting lots but its mainly to just agree and parrot arguments others have made.

So I want a case, UberNinja. I want your top suspect and I want reasons and your thought processes behind what you are thinking.

I edited my post down to prove a point.

[Porochaz]

Up to 25, now we get into the Glork/Delta argument. Im glad because I hadn't delved too deeply into it and it was interesting. It was interesting mainly because 2011 is trying to school 2005. However, what I am seeing is two egos at work and because Glork is the more experienced player. He is always going to win the argument. I mean I did think DW had a point on the self-meta (I made it myself I think) and I don't like Glork referring to it. However Glork is correct on the cookie cutter cases and whats more he is starting to drill holes in this case. Which is also what made it interesting, I haven't seen someone make a case implode like that for a long time.

Other than that, I want to post in some of the MD threads posted by Glork and Haylen, relevant to my interests.

UN has moved on to Deltawave, Grey seemed to have settled, so it was only natural for UN to detach his head from grey and jump to the next blood filled animal. Murasa is increasingly becoming less scum more bleh. Slaxx's position interests me, especially as I seem to have missed a large amount of him and Pere from the game.

[Porochaz]

You'd make an excellent 21st century politician, Delta. I stated exactly why I had issue with 429. I said in plain words -- and I quote -- "There isn't even any ATE in that post."


And no, me being snide and angry is just a part of my mafia persona. You're more than welcome to ask for confirmation from MoS, Porochaz, GreyICE, PereV, Haylen, or anyone in your QuickTopic who has played with me in the past.

Its true. See Weasel Mafia. He was a fucking dick.

[CooLDoG]

I'm interested in hearing why I'm a suspect of DW even though he hasn't mentioned me at all beforehand.

This should be obvious. Your adamant defense of Haylen has awarded you many scumpoints

On the contrary. If Haylen's scum, that makes Capt. Murasa more likely to be

town

.

No. It means that captain wanted to protect her scum bud.
Just saying.

Also, who the fuck cares if your reads are original. You sound like a petulant toddler DW, "Mommy, I came up with it first... waaaaaaa"
Sorry to be rude, but I call'em how I see'em.

CooLDoG, you fucking owe me one or two for something or other. Maybe it's the way I voriciously defend you when you're town. Oh hey, not getting a strong town read off you. Get on the Haylen wagon.

Actually I do owe you something. But haylen is town. Lynching her is a mistake.

Murasa, how do you know I'm town? Not being funny but it's almost impossible to read me correctly if you haven't played multiple games with me and know what to look for. Heck even I don't know what to look for. None of your team meet that criteria.

Bullshit. Stop using bullshit "you can't read me without meta". Bull fucking shit. Your posts are town motivated, it doesn't take 500 pages worth of game to figure that out. Your reactions to questions are what a town would respond to. Also, your genuine frustration exudes "townie" to me.

If anybody can find evidence that Delta's actually trying, and isn't completely full of shit, please present it to me. Because I'm really not seeing it.

Wagon ho?

Quiet, scum, big kids are talking.

Looks like you've moved onto your next crapcase without even addressing my rebuttal to your last one. Oh well.

Just because people I suspect are pointing the finger at each other won't diminish my suspicions. I don't know if you've ever heard of a concept called "bussing", where scum point fingers at each other in order to make it seem like they're not connected. The existence of that concept is

why I'm not going to clear people because they are voting each other.

We had better lynch this guy before lylo, because he isn't going to be using any voting analysis. Voteing patterns are one of the towns greatest weapons, why are you throwing it by the wayside?

Already told you, Grey, if I were scum, I would be following like a puppy dog on a leash. You're easy to manipulate.

The thing is, I really don't give a flying fuck. I think my ability to read these players is better than your entire team's, so

I'm not going to cave to peer pressure anymore.

Glork is town. Scum wouldn't say this.

Delta is town

Write that down for later

if

when DW flips scum.

@Glork-number 13 on the player list. I'm hurt that you forgot I was in the game. You know, if it' s true.

@haylen- no faking conversations allowed.
VOTE: Haylen

Pere wouldn't be a bad lynch seeing that he is litterally contributing zero to this game. He is really easy to forget because no body talks about him and he fosters this by his lurking and minimalist style of posting. When I say menamlist, I mean he doesn't post any content, just a vote and a scum list.


Switch into hyperactive defend mode with no scum hunting what so ever for the rest of the game here:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p4038666

Holy shit. One of Delta's fundamental reasons for calling me scum isn't even VALID.

This guy. Needs so dead.

Heh, you just figured that out?

I am neither

posting

or claiming until:
a) glork explains his case on me.
b) someone explains to glork and pere that asking me to prove discussions in my qt is akin to asking me to prove my role.
c) grey reads my posts and shows everyone where ive scumhunted.

Everyone can screw themselves.

Bye.

Don't make me think you are scum. Not posting is never good, ever.

My vote isn't moving off DeltaWave until one of us is dead.
Signed.
Sealed.
Delivered.

Your wish is my command, asshole.

Vote: Glork

Note this epic chain saw of power for later if need be.

Filler? Where did I use filler?

Respond to my entire post.
In response to your question: as this argument has gone on, and as I've continually rebutted your points, you've amped up the abrasiveness. That's what I'm referring to.

One he is trying to dismiss a factual error in his posts. Two, abrasiveness is not filler. I don't see how you can misconstrue a definition that far.

[quote="delta's 627]
I looked up the article on AtE on the wiki and this might not exactly fit under most people's definitions of AtE. Regardless of what you call it, it's suspect that you substitute snide comments/angry statements for actual analysis.[/quote]

Oh shit, I just got found out but I'm not going to drop my blatantly fallacious point.

Let me get this right.

You're now

openly refusing

to explain an inconsistency in your logic in #630. What do you have to hide?

And now your case is that the vote I made in Post #38 - my first vote in the game - was not well supported.

LOL, you are so fucking caught right now.

VOTE: Glork

OMGUS TO DA MAX. No really, if your reads are so strong on haylen and nothing much really changed between you and glork over the three pages I just read (about 20 to 24) then why not keep it on haylen? And why wait so long to switch to glork. You had many more legitamite oppertunities to switch your vote, but you waited for

some

reason.

More Glork votes plz

Ohh, this reminded me why I thought you were scum. No contribution, hard defenses of scummy ass mother fuckers, and chainsaws. Admitedly the latter wouln't be known until flips, nevertheless, you are scum.

Grey ice uses some meta bullshit wifom tells in order to make is buddy, DW, look like a townie. Note that for later, that's in his 655 for those who want to keep track. QAnd he does more in 666, which is not the least bit ironic.

I can, however, read the CooLDoG like he is an open book

If I get lynched, will you eat your pants over this? Like seriously, eat your pants?

also.

COOLDOG YOU'RE OBVIOUS SCUM

GET IN HERE SO YOU CAN SCUM UP THE THREAD

KTHXBAI

Why am I scum? You haven't developed any substantial reasons as to why I am scum up to this point. I might be missing something, but...

SCCCCCCCCCCCUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

SCUMDOG

SCUM SCUM SCUM

Could be a reason.

@Glork- I read Delta as town. I get the thought processes behind his answers and questions.

@Grey-Nice analysis on last years team mafia roles.

@Haylen-

b) someone explains to glork and pere that asking me to prove discussions in my qt is akin to asking me to prove my role.

I never asked that.

I said this and this and finally this after you ignored the first two.
And are you seriously trying to blackmail the thread, threatening to "withhold posts" until some condition is met?

You should vote yourself to show how truly exasperated you are....

... No scum hunting. No contribution to the town. Nothing. Just nothing. A prod doge if I ever saw one.

I am a guy, my gender on this account is female to suit the character it's based off of.

RC ALT ALERT. This post broke the monotony of reading this thread. Thank you.

GREY ICE, BRO, WHY AM I SCUM, YO?

You keep saying it, but you never tell me why I am scum.


DONE. AT LAST.

[Porochaz]

...Incidentally, you managed to reach endgame there.

Anyway on with the next and final post.

vote uberninja

Im done.

Slaxx, you need to shit or get off the pot in regards to me.

Deltawave took too long to move on, but Im not convinced of alignment.

That said, I'd prefer a DW lynch over a Haylen one

[UberNinja]

I'm interested in hearing why I'm a suspect of DW even though he hasn't mentioned me at all beforehand.

This should be obvious. Your adamant defense of Haylen has awarded you many scumpoints

On the contrary. If Haylen's scum, that makes Capt. Murasa more likely to be

town

.

No. It means that captain wanted to protect her scum bud.
Just saying.

What the fuck are you on? Scumbuddies don't stick their neck out for their buddies in broad daylight.

@ Poro: Haylen, and the reasons can be easily found by a double-ISO of me and GreyICE.

Ciao

Uber, isn't doing that as such, he's posting lots but its mainly to just agree and parrot arguments others have made.

So I want a case, UberNinja. I want your top suspect and I want reasons and your thought processes behind what you are thinking.

I edited my post down to prove a point.

And?

I have given reasons and thought processes. Did you not read my opening skirmish vs Haylen/Glork?
GreyICE has given reasons and thought processes. I agree with him, and I have stated as much.

Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.

[UberNinja]

So CoolDog, lemme ask you this:
Do you think Haylen is scum with Capt Murasa, OR do you think I am scum with DeltaWave?

Because those are both agendas you tried to push within your last megapost.

[UberNinja]

I have one response for you so far, Haylen.

chesskid3 says you're scum because of who is on your team, from which I extrapolate that your team probably gave you this role PM based on who's on your team and who you are. Basically, he is agreeing with GreyICE, as am I. He also said something else which I don't feel the need to repeat.

Still waiting on BBmolla and SleepyKrew.

[Haylen]

Tell him I love him too.

Think about it. I take a scum role PM, I get lynched Day One because it's obvious someone's going to pipe up and tell everyone I prefer scum/third party roles - my team get no points for this and the people on my wagon do.

Now with a town role, yes I suck as town and wont earn tonnes of points. But, people will still lynch me and will lose points for their team for that, therefore giving my team a boost.

[DeltaWave]

CoolDog, you are collossally dense. If you don't die today, you are the best target for a vig shot.

Also, who the fuck cares if your reads are original. You sound like a petulant toddler DW, "Mommy, I came up with it first... waaaaaaa"
Sorry to be rude, but I call'em how I see'em.

Do you have an adequate understanding of the English language? This is a serious question because in 482, Murasa said I was parroting arguments. So I responded in 448 with a rebuttal to that. And your assessment is, "who the fuck cares if your reads are original"?

Do you not understand what the word "parroting" means? Do you not understand how showing that my reads were original is a rebuttal to that? You are seriously an idiot.

Don't make me think you are scum. Not posting is never good, ever.

Saving this part of your post for later.

One he is trying to dismiss a factual error in his posts. Two, abrasiveness is not filler. I don't see how you can misconstrue a definition that far.

LOL, how do you know what his motivations are?

OMGUS TO DA MAX. No really, if your reads are so strong on haylen and nothing much really changed between you and glork over the three pages I just read (about 20 to 24) then why not keep it on haylen? And why wait so long to switch to glork. You had many more legitamite oppertunities to switch your vote, but you waited for

some

reason.

I explained why I was switching to Glork. I found an inconsistency in his logic and, when I pressed him on it, he refused to explain it. You apparently don't think that's a legitimate reason... oh wait, earlier you said that not posting is bad and can convince you that someone is scum. You are seriously dumb.

...Incidentally, you managed to reach endgame there.

Anyway on with the next and final post.

vote uberninja

Im done.

Slaxx, you need to shit or get off the pot in regards to me.

Deltawave took too long to move on, but Im not convinced of alignment.

That said, I'd prefer a DW lynch over a Haylen one

Opinions on Cooldog and Glork please.

[Slaxx]

Town: Grey, UN, Jason, Glork, Pere, MoS

This is a combination of Reck and I's strongest town reads. The MoS town read comes from Reg saying MoS takes his scum games a lot more serious and feels that town MoS is riling up Grey.

Six town reads leaves six null-scum reads. Reg has cooldog as slight town though I don't necessarily agree with that read.

This leaves: Cooldog, Porochaz, Delta, Haylen, IAmUsername, Murasa.

Porochaz isn't scum with Haylen AND Captain as per post #114 where there was a heavy Haylen wagon and he voted Murasa. No one in their right mind would vote their other scumbuddy with a decent case while the other one is under fire, theyd try to find a townie. So Poro/Captain/Murasa is impossible to me. Also, Poro/Murasa is unlikely.

Delta isn't scum with IAm AND Haylen unless he likes to attack both his partners right out of the gate (His first post in addition to his #135)

Captain's #505 is unsettling in regards to Haylen and Captain being partners. If you look at Captain's play, she has backed off of a lot of votes. I don't know if she is ballsy enough scum to defend her partner in all caps like that, its just a shitton of attention being brought to her. Haylen's #508 also seems to point against the pair: why ask a scumbuddy to justify a town read on you? at first I thought it might be distancing, but I looked and Haylen and Delta both had three votes at the time. Captain had been calling Haylen town for a while and I feel like Haylen would have been way more likely to start distancing once she pretty much knew it was over for herself.

If Delta is scum I doubt he put both scumbuddies in his bottom four as per post #421. There is no way the scum is Haylen/Murasa/Delta going through his posts.

Sorry Grey, but I don't think its Cooldog+Haylen. Post 778 where he says "bullshit I can read you without meta" just doesn't sound like scum talking to scum. Its gut but its strong and I think I'm sticking to it.

Something about post #249 is really off from IAm in regards to him saying its a strong town tell for teammates of a scum player to post reads without explanation. At the very least its logically flawed: he's assuming they are even posting reads in the QT and Cooldog isnt lying about it. Also, even if he isn't, I don't see how a quick list is any more or less town.

Something is nagging at me that Poro might be town, more on that later. On that same note, UN's last couple posts are even more town.


So improbable combinations:
Porochaz/Murasa
Delta/IAm/Haylen
Delta/Murasa/Haylen
Cooldog/Haylen

[Slaxx]

Delta just really doesnt make sense with many of my scumreads, so I'm wrong somewhere I think. I've combed over all the ISOs and I just can't find out where.

[PeregrineV]

I'm ready to play the "Can CoolDog read?" game.

@CoolDog- Why am I voting Haylen?

[GreyICE]

GreyICE points out Captain Ajax took a scum role. Toss that into the hopper, Slaxx~

[Slaxx]

i dun get it

[DeltaWave]

EBWOP: 448 should be 483 in my last post.

Slaxx: If I don't make sense with any of your scumreads, that's a pretty good sign you should reconsider your scumread on me. Just saying.

[Porochaz]

Uber, isn't doing that as such, he's posting lots but its mainly to just agree and parrot arguments others have made.

So I want a case, UberNinja. I want your top suspect and I want reasons and your thought processes behind what you are thinking.

I edited my post down to prove a point.

And?

I have given reasons and thought processes. Did you not read my opening skirmish vs Haylen/Glork?
GreyICE has given reasons and thought processes. I agree with him, and I have stated as much.

Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.[/quote]

I read the whole game again today and your iso three times I think. Once around page 15, once near the end and once when I was writing the final post to see if I had missed some original opinion. Fact is, regardless of what you might say, you have done almost nothing to convince me you have an original thought about this game and you have been piggy backing on the people with the loudest voices to look like you are doing something and to seem like a generally amicable person.

[Porochaz]

Yay mucked up quotes.

[Porochaz]

My opinions on Glork are well documented.

My opinion on Cooldog is in my multitude of posts I just made.

Apologies for the semi cryptic answers, I like to think people read my things.

[GreyICE]

i dun get it

While there's a bit of a gambler's fallacy involved, each scum flip means the remaining members of the team are less likely to be scum, if you will.

Although you probably give Trojan Horse one over Ajax... yeah, Om is still town.

[iamausername]

Something about post #249 is really off from IAm in regards to him saying its a strong town tell for teammates of a scum player to post reads without explanation. At the very least its logically flawed: he's assuming they are even posting reads in the QT and Cooldog isnt lying about it. Also, even if he isn't, I don't see how a quick list is any more or less town.

Oh, come on.

Town teammates may well be saying "X is scummy" without any further explanation, because it's just a gut read, or whatever. Perhaps you can find some examples of this in your own team QT. Perhaps you have even done this yourself for one of your town teammates!

Scum teammates, on the other hand, will be pointing out weaknesses in town players that can be exploited. They're not going to say "Call X scummy" with no further explanation, because that is of no worth whatsoever to their teammate. In their genuine opinons about the game, town teammates have far more inclination to post reads without explanation, because they're the only ones who are actually posting

reads

.

When town say they have gut reads, it's because they have gut reads. When scum say they have gut reads, it's because they're trying to look town.

In the team QTs, nobody is trying to look town.

I mean, of course if they're specifically coming up with fake reads for their teammates to post in thread they might say "pretend I have a gut read on that guy". But from the tone and the timing of CoolDog's mention of his teammates' reads, I don't think that's what was going on.

I understand that scum CoolDog could lie about his teammate's posts in the QT. I considered this possiblity, and dismissed it as considerably less likely than the alternative. I conveyed this in Post 249, the post that you are talking about here, through the use of the following phrase:

"I don't see CooLDoG inventing this out of whole cloth."

This means that I considered the possibility that CoolDog was lying about his teammates' posts, and decided it was unlikely. I find the scenario where town CoolDog's teammate theamateur says "Haylen is scummy" without elaboration in the QT more plausible than the scenario where scum CoolDog decides to declare fake opinions on behalf of his teammates completely unprompted.

Just like you and Regfan, for some fucking reason, apparently find the scenario where scum iamausername votes his scumbuddy and refuses to budge that vote under any circumstances and yells at everyone to stop getting distracted by shiny things and lynch his scumbuddy, because he is just that fucking committed to bussing, more likely than the scenario where town iamausername genuinely thinks Haylen is scum.

Comprende?

[iamausername]

While there's a bit of a gambler's fallacy involved, each scum flip means the remaining members of the team are less likely to be scum, if you will.

Although you probably give Trojan Horse one over Ajax... yeah, Om is still town.

Trojan Horse

is

Ajax.

And Fonz says it's not Gambler's Fallacy, because the probabilities aren't independent. I'm having trouble working my head around whether or not he's right about that, but I think it's like the Monty Hall thing where it's true, even though it seems like it shouldn't be.

[GreyICE]

Hey CooLDoG, you're just chopping up all these posts into these stupid little walls where you offer useless little comments that NEVER DEVELOP INTO ANYTHING. They're just little snippets of commentary with no coherent whole, no coherent thoughts, no chain of logic or central drive. They're just these comments. Like you're a color commentator at a football game.

Why?

[GreyICE]

While there's a bit of a gambler's fallacy involved, each scum flip means the remaining members of the team are less likely to be scum, if you will.

Although you probably give Trojan Horse one over Ajax... yeah, Om is still town.

Trojan Horse

is

Ajax.

And Fonz says it's not Gambler's Fallacy, because the probabilities aren't independent. I'm having trouble working my head around whether or not he's right about that, but I think it's like the Monty Hall thing where it's true, even though it seems like it shouldn't be.

The probabilities of getting a scum PM in each game is totally independent of each other game. Fonz is wrong, because any number of doors can have a prize behind them, which changes the problem quite a bit.

Anyway, I still don't think you give your second scum PM to Om of the Nom, and I read him as town, so w/e.

[Mastermind of Sin]

You'd make an excellent 21st century politician, Delta. I stated exactly why I had issue with 429. I said in plain words -- and I quote -- "There isn't even any ATE in that post."


And no, me being snide and angry is just a part of my mafia persona. You're more than welcome to ask for confirmation from MoS, Porochaz, GreyICE, PereV, Haylen, or anyone in your QuickTopic who has played with me in the past.

Its true. See Weasel Mafia. He was a fucking dick.

If anything, the main reason I'm not certain of my Glorktown read yet is because he wasn't ENOUGH of a dick so far. Obviously now his future behavior is moot toward this meta, but the point is that Glork being a dick isn't a scumtell.

Also, Regfan can read me like a boss.