Mafiascum.net

Like there are myriads of reasons you keep me alive, some of which i already outlined. And they even go beyond logic. It can be as simple as "I want to endgame Wisdom. We're not killing him."

i've explained my point of view more thoroughly than necessary and am not interested in continuing this exchange for there are more productive things i need to do before sleep takes me away. i tried to rebel against the man but i lost. i'm chilling out and going with the flow as a result.

you can take this as a learning experience and read me better in the future OR you can blame me for the misread post-game, but all of the pieces of the puzzle to determining my alignment are in your hands. if i were scum, nymph wouldn't be dead and you wouldn't be alive.

so even if i accept everything else

how is sparing oversoul the key to turning this, in your opinion, bad gamestate, around?

There are two qualities of Oversoul's town game that are present here that I don't think Oversoul can emulate when he is scum. I will only be using his most recent scumgame as a comparison because I'm not doing meta research, I'm simply using real-world examples to make a point. I heavily encourage you, dear reader, to do some research of your own to check my work and better understand my points.



When Oversoul is scumread as town, he gets aggressive and gains confidence - he is unafraid of dealing with pressure as town and as a result shuts pressure down/pushes back immediately, whereas as scum he is always sort of expecting to get caught and so there's never ever the same fire as opposed to when he's pushes as town, and this is especially magnified when he's dealing with players who are able to correctly scumread and get him lynched quickly.

First, his reaction to some early pressure in his recent scum game -



You can skim the game itself if you'd like, but the gist of what happens is Oversoul gets voted by a couple people, decides to self-vote as paint it as a reaction test so that later down the road he can vote LUV and not the scarier of the pair who voted him. Instead of shutting the push down and hitting back and anyone and everyone who scumreads him (exaggeration, but), Oversoul asks a bunch of questions so he looks like he has a reason to vote LUV, then votes LUV for reasons that are still remarkably unclear.

Contrast that with a couple things that happened this game.

1)

The main reason I like the quick exchange with Wisdom is because of how early it was. Imagine being nervous being scum, expecting to get caught immediately, getting caught immediately. Instead of going for something cute, Oversoul shuts him down and is completely comfortable declaring himself obvtown on page 2 instead - don't think this ever happens if he's scum here. I like the "this isn't going to be an issue this game" because it's not only another great example of confidence carrying himself that just wouldn't be present if he was scum, but it's also setting up expectations that will bit him in the ass if scum down the road, and that scares scum!Oversoul. Second piece here is that I actually like his lines of scumhunting on the "big three - he challenged me on my Chemist scumread when I provided it for reasons that made sense to me, and currently is saying that there's scum in the group of people that could most plausibly catch him. It's a risk he doesn't have to take as scum at all, but because he's town and trying to sort the game, he does it without thinking.



Don't know why he's still incapable of posting consistently as scum but he is! Not many people you can pull the "welp they're here so they're town card" on, but Oversoul is most certainly one of them.



For whatever reason, Oversoul as scum is addicted to showing how he's formed certain thought processes so he can make sure his ass is covered. When he is town, he doesn't give a fuck. In the first example I gave, Oversoul devised a "reaction test" that he didn't explain worth a shit and asked bunch of weird, useless questions so he could find a way to get a vote on the townie he wanted to vote. Here, Oversoul is all over the place - he will explain his reasoning, sure, but there's not a moment in his play where the read comes before the reasons while that's a hallmark of his scum game.

In post 777, Wisdom wrote:so even if i accept everything else

how is sparing oversoul the key to turning this, in your opinion, bad gamestate, around?

1) sparing oversoul isn't the key to turning everything around, he's just my strongest townread currently so i'd like to spare him.

2) it's not a gamestate per se. it's not my favorite but it's not toxic or making want to shoot someone or something, and it won't change until a bunch of people not named Wisdom or Elements or Oversoul put something more substantive in the thread like i'm trying to do. the gamestate is more a frying pan when i wanted to cook soup. frying pans aren't inherently worse than pots but i can't do what i wanted to do with a frying pan.

HEAL: Oversoul
I'll bite.

srsly now?

I feel like I missed something

What’s the argument for pacifist

In post 742, Wisdom wrote:whats your nacho read

It’s not really a thing at the moment. I kinda gave him a day 1 pass because I know Nachos a really good player that if he’s town will give some results. I’ve been pretty focused on other people. I did see he made a ton of posts that I’ll have to read so that’ll change hopefully soon.

In post 744, Elements wrote:

In post 741, Xayah wrote:Ele how do you get from point A to B? I get that your meta is supposed to be 'flip your stuff around a ton' but. Well I'll let you answer before I lead this somewhere.

More seriously. To apply more pressure to nacho so they feel like they could be a viable lynch target etc you know how the game works, and because I doubt anyone is going to follow my wisdom vote. At least for now.

You know, saying your vote is purely for pressure kinda defeats the purpose of a pressure vote.

In post 747, Oversoul wrote:I think sparing is actually the better move than lynching. If we have spared scum already and then lynch a townie we essentially just lose

In other news, water is wet. I don’t really remember you having any problem with the Rakan or Gin lynch so why this outlook? We should be lynching today for information. We don’t lose if we spared a scum. I really don’t get this outlook. Can you explain it to me more?

In post 751, Nachomamma8 wrote:My thought is that the best way to play the game is from a neutral standpoint; you can form a strong towncore by attempting to hunt together and taking a couple shots at the scumteam and getting a ton of information early in the game (and because of the investigative aspect, scum are put in a shit position in having to try to avoid getting TOO much towncred or it fucks them later), which requires slowing down, posting a lot of content early game, engaging and listening to people. That didn't happen.

I don’t remember you really trying to do this. Like, I understand you were afk/busy or whatever. But I don’t recall you trying to push this outlook that much and that’s where I have issue.

In post 751, Nachomamma8 wrote:I think the pacifist line is the poorest for two reasons. The first is that the scum strategy to play it is remarkably straightforward - kill active people until the game is dead or the voices alive are bad influences. You can fake distance your partners p much all you like because you won't be forced to go through with it, and you don't have to attack townies and deal with righteous fury because you're sparing people and pushing back against momentum usually isn't worth it. Secondly, there are no real chances to reassess. Generally, when I am in a tunnel, it takes a whole lot of work to pull me out of it, but you can push people hard enough where they can produce genuine reactions and everything's all good. However, if I'm townreading scum pretty strongly, it's much harder to pull me out - scum usually don't super fuck up in thread, so the only way I'm able to truly reassess is when my working POE is proven wrong. Pacifist doesn't allow for either of those so we just gotta hope that we didn't fuck up in initial reads and that's it.

Then we have this. This is all 100% true and it’s why this route is pretty meh. I guess I have the same question for you that I do oversoul. What’s your feel on Rakan/Ginngie? I would understand this viewpoint if you were hard scumreading some of them, but I think the only one who was sucmreading someone in the group was Mastina. You’re basically saying let us put our blind faith and keep on going. When we can very well kill and be in a fine spot. I’m just confused for the most part.

In post 759, Nachomamma8 wrote:

In post 758, Wisdom wrote:unless i was a pacifist supporter so you felt safe

i felt safe with someone who was calling me scum and shutting me down at every turn?
do you really believe that?

Are you really trying to claim that scum you is stubborn enough to take full control of the night kills considering how hard you were lurking? Like if you thought your partner could win you would you let them pick the nightkill or no?

HEAL: Wisdom
HURT: Nacho

Regardless we should be hurting/healing in these although I do think hurt>heal today. People going for the heal route is so????????????? Like what is wrong with you

Spare Votecount 3.2

Nachomamma8 -

Elements ------

mastina --------

Xayah ---------

Oversoul ------

(3)

Oversoul, Nachomamma8, mastina

Wisdom -

(1)

Xayah

Chemist1422 -

Not sparing:

- (3) Elements, Wisdom, Chemist1422

Fight Votecount 3.2

Nachomamma8 -

(3)

Wisdom, Elements, Xayah,

Elements -----

mastina -

Xayah -

Oversoul ----

Wisdom -

Chemist1422 -

Not Fighting:

- (5) mastina, Nachomamma8, Wisdom, Chemist1422

@mod

Nacho isn't self-voting for Fight lol

I...don't really want Oversoul spared.

HURT: Nacho

I only trust myself to do stupid stuff, none of y'all

Sorry if this is wrong but I feel more comfortable about it than sparing Over

Like

They're at L-1 because of a towncase by the person we want to kill

Spare Votecount 3.3>

Nachomamma8 -

Elements ------

mastina --------

Xayah ---------

Oversoul ------

(3)

Oversoul, Nachomamma8, mastina

Wisdom --------

(1)

Xayah

Chemist1422 -

Not sparing:

- (3) Elements, Wisdom, Chemist1422

Fight Votecount 3.3>

Nachomamma8 -

(4)

Wisdom, Elements, Xayah, Chemist1422

Elements -----

mastina -

Xayah -

Oversoul ----

Wisdom -

Chemist1422 -

Not Fighting:

- (3) mastina, Nachomamma8, Wisdom

In post 781, Wisdom wrote:srsly now?

As I was GOING to say before SOMEONE decided to lolhammer Nacho and cause the thread to be locked literally five minutes before I could post...

Yes, seriously.

We don't have Toriel--if we did, then chennisden would've lived through N1.
We couldn't use the vig due to D1 and the vig is a role which shouldn't have been used anyway.

So that meant that there was only one possible, and useful, role; the even night cop.

This was one of the reasons why on D2 I was advocating for the lynch, because the even night cop isn't going to live through today and tonight. So literally the only chance the even night cop would get to investigated was N2.

Except...
...We fucking spared on D2, so the even night cop couldn't act.
So, if we weren't going to use the even night cop and had healed twice.
We should've just committed and all-inned on going for the pacifist ending.

Hurting yesterday was stupid, especially given one crucial factor which would've made the pacifist ending viable:
Nymph was the nightkill.
Nymph was a player I am pretty sure nobody in the game was townreading--and in fact, I was strongly scumreading Nymph and was trying to lynch Nymph.
Yet the scum killed Nymph, who wasn't being townread by anyone and who I would've happily mislynched.
So the question becomes...why kill Nymph?

The only answer that I can come up with is, "scum were PR hunting".
But again, the question would be...with two spares, WHY would scum be PR hunting, especially if one scum was already spared? They're not dumb, they knew there wasn't a doctor because their chennisden nightkill succeeded when it wouldn't have with any doctor in the game.
They knew that whoever the PR was, due to the D2 spare, they were worthless.
The only thing the PR would give would be, themselves being conftown.

Why would scum be particularly afraid of conftown?

If they were worried that the town could pull off a pacifist victory.
Which means.
In spite of my concern.
Rakan's town.
And Ginngie's obviously also town.
Which meant that yesterday, if we spared town and our PR lived to see today...we'd have won the game in the pacifist route.

Which is why I wanted to spare Oversoul.
Regardless of Nacho's alignment, Oversoul was going to be town.
If Nacho was scum, he wasn't going to be hard-advocating for the spare of his scumbuddy especially knowing that there would be a scum revealed when reaching the core since he wouldn't also be spared.
If Nacho was town, like I thought he was (he was my strongest townread), then his case was one which I believe has merit.

So, yes.
This means that right now.
I think Oversoul is town.
I know I am town.
And I fully believe that the two scum are in {Xayah, Elements, Chemist}.

So.
HEAL: Oversoul.
I believe we do this, reveal that we had zero scum spared, and if we have a cop have them investigate in the above three, and lynch from there after reaching the core.

It wasn't a lolhammer

It was a calculated hammer to stop someone from hammering Oversoul

Mastina let me know when you're around. I want to talk to you in live conversation because going back and forth on walls is gonna be bleh and something I don't care for

I am sorry that I have been awol. I will be here late today and late tomorrow
But I am somewhat surprised about what has all happened yesterday because it felt like it happened very quickly