In post 772, Aristophanes wrote:I mean, I appreciate the post by Nash, but I also hope they follow it up with some responses.
My issue is it's just links to other people's opinions...so yeah. Follow up will be good.
Absolutely agree! I think it will be quite telling.
Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:24 am
by Worcestershire
What games did you mention ? (Links)
Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:44 am
by Nash
In post 764, Aristophanes wrote:
Re: BM unvote
I mean, this is pretty sudden and drastic. I will give you that. What makes you think this comes from scum though? A drastic change in stance often comes from town reevaluating things, or seeing a sudden town motivation behind a slit which had been missed or masked prior to this! Heck, I could point to a game which just wrapped up last week where this happened to a read on me after being deathtunneled for like 6 game days! We were both town, he just came around on it all of a sudden!
Could it be scummy? Maybe. But town are far more likely to reevaluate a slot than scum are and it looks like they had no need to reevaluate BM here.
Re: Weird Vote; Inactive
Their posting is about middle of the road in frequency and being a lead wagin doesn't mean they will suddenly post more as any alignment. And is this a bit of OMGUS too?
They should definitely be arguing for their life and making a case for one of the other players as a counterwagon. It is not the time for them to pressure vote. However would scum not be fighting harder here too?
Like, I don't see any scum motivation in these posts or points.
Do you?
"Coming around on TM" is a point in favour for Mara since it's bad for scum!marashu to townread a slot which has a lot of potential to gain traction, when he has been the top wagon for so long, but that's exactly the kind of play he can adopt for towncred. I haven't seen anything in TM's ISO (after Mara's vote) which gives me townpings so I can see scum motivation here for sure. I'm not making a point on his activity, placing his vote on me just for "pressure" when there's a lot of AI content shows a lack of scum hunting.
Oooo we've found the metadiver!
Good luck with this one...the game was long and had a fucktonne (yes, that's metric, deal with it) of replacements. I'll like relevant sections though.
The game in question is SIR Disease Mafia. I replaced into it D1 as a VT.
In post 764, Aristophanes wrote:Re: BM unvote
I mean, this is pretty sudden and drastic. I will give you that. What makes you think this comes from scum though? A drastic change in stance often comes from town reevaluating things, or seeing a sudden town motivation behind a slit which had been missed or masked prior to this!
Heck, I could point to a game which just wrapped up last week where this happened to a read on me after being deathtunneled for like 6 game days! We were both town, he just came around on it all of a sudden!
Quick (later replaced by his alt, LicketyQuickety) and I replaced in on the same page. Not long after, he startedscumreading me (~post 2000 of the game and ~200 into his own posts, of thich there are 1300 or so...). I'm going to skip ahead but Iso and read as much as you like. in posts 8300-8550 he was STILLscumreadingme and had been pushing me in post after post.
Then all of a sudden 2 posts later he votes someone else and explains why (in the vaguest terms possible). I don't know what I did or what he suddenly realized, but all of a sudden, after 5 day phases and 6000 posts, I was a top tier townread out of the blue!
So this totally can and does happen, and I usually see it from town.
In post 763, Worcestershire wrote:If marashu is town, this guy is mafia trying to anticipate a good position on the ml scenario for tomorrow.
Nope! Nice attempt at setting up lynches though. You just got yourself a light scumlean!
I could point to that same game which just wrapped up where I argued against the first 3 eliminations to no avail! I was town. All 3 were town. I was trying to save them and failed.
I have a bit of a tendancy to white knight people, it is true. But I have no intention of gaining anything personally from it, other than saving a townread.
I don't think I put this much work into casing that game
within that game
so lol let's do this!
I remember fighting far harder for ETL!Town than I can find in my Iso, but I fought for them here and was accused of white knighting for townpoints because of this post mostly.
I argued against the D2 elimination on Jake and after that I forget my stances but I think they were a lot more agreeable.
The point here is basically that I'm a white-knighty person when I make cases. I think this should suffice. Read on if you like though!
In post 764, Aristophanes wrote:
Re: BM unvote
I mean, this is pretty sudden and drastic. I will give you that. What makes you think this comes from scum though? A drastic change in stance often comes from town reevaluating things, or seeing a sudden town motivation behind a slit which had been missed or masked prior to this! Heck, I could point to a game which just wrapped up last week where this happened to a read on me after being deathtunneled for like 6 game days! We were both town, he just came around on it all of a sudden!
Could it be scummy? Maybe. But town are far more likely to reevaluate a slot than scum are and it looks like they had no need to reevaluate BM here.
Re: Weird Vote; Inactive
Their posting is about middle of the road in frequency and being a lead wagin doesn't mean they will suddenly post more as any alignment. And is this a bit of OMGUS too?
They should definitely be arguing for their life and making a case for one of the other players as a counterwagon. It is not the time for them to pressure vote. However would scum not be fighting harder here too?
Like, I don't see any scum motivation in these posts or points.
Do you?
"Coming around on TM" is a point in favour for Mara since it's bad for scum!marashu to townread a slot which has a lot of potential to gain traction, when he has been the top wagon for so long, but that's exactly the kind of play he can adopt for towncred. I haven't seen anything in TM's ISO (after Mara's vote) which gives me townpings so I can see scum motivation here for sure. I'm not making a point on his activity, placing his vote on me just for "pressure" when there's a lot of AI content shows a lack of scum hunting.
Have you seen their scum game and do you believe this is within their scumrange?
Because "this looks towny so it could be scum manipulation" is a tough sell.
I do think it is a great point that voting you there instead of providing content is potentially scummy. That said, why wouldn't they vote a counterwagon? Much like townreading a slot that could be miselimable (oof, that's clunky) makes no sense for scum, neither does a lack of campaigning for the elimination of a counterwagon over their own elim.
Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:06 am
by Nash
Aristophanes wrote:Have you seen their scum game and do you believe this is within their scumrange?
Because "this looks towny so it could be scum manipulation" is a tough sell.
I do think it is a great point that voting you there instead of providing content is potentially scummy. That said, why wouldn't they vote a counterwagon? Much like townreading a slot that could be miselimable (oof, that's clunky) makes no sense for scum, neither does a lack of campaigning for the elimination of a counterwagon over their own elim.
Would've been towny if it was a good townread. I don't think it is, hence scummy. Not going for a counterwagon makes no sense for town!Mara either, so I don't think it comes under the same logic.
Aristophanes wrote:Have you seen their scum game and do you believe this is within their scumrange?
Because "this looks towny so it could be scum manipulation" is a tough sell.
I do think it is a great point that voting you there instead of providing content is potentially scummy. That said, why wouldn't they vote a counterwagon? Much like townreading a slot that could be miselimable (oof, that's clunky) makes no sense for scum, neither does a lack of campaigning for the elimination of a counterwagon over their own elim.
Would've been towny if it was a good townread. I don't think it is, hence scummy. Not going for a counterwagon makes no sense for town!Mara either, so I don't think it comes under the same logic.
Sure it does, if Town!Mara thinks the other possible wagons (specifically PP I suppose) are town. As a VT in that case (I mean, odds are pretty good there) sometimes going down is better than potentially outing a PR with a counterwagon.
Aristophanes wrote:Have you seen their scum game and do you believe this is within their scumrange?
Because "this looks towny so it could be scum manipulation" is a tough sell.
I do think it is a great point that voting you there instead of providing content is potentially scummy. That said, why wouldn't they vote a counterwagon? Much like townreading a slot that could be miselimable (oof, that's clunky) makes no sense for scum, neither does a lack of campaigning for the elimination of a counterwagon over their own elim.
Would've been towny if it was a good townread. I don't think it is, hence scummy. Not going for a counterwagon makes no sense for town!Mara either, so I don't think it comes under the same logic.
Sure it does, if Town!Mara thinks the other possible wagons (specifically PP I suppose) are town. As a VT in that case (I mean, odds are pretty good there) sometimes going down is better than potentially outing a PR with a counterwagon.
Town!Mara must have had some scumread to pursue
Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:02 am
by Aristophanes
In post 792, Nash wrote:Town!Mara must have had some scumread to pursue
You would think so, yeah. And they had never mentioned you prior to this either, which is also odd.
Iunno, honestly these are questions for Mara which I can only speculate on.
Although I just remembered one thing from my Iso dive, and that is that we shouldn't be leashing the hider. I mean, really.They should crumb their hide each day before deadline in an obvious enough way (while remaining covert). Why would we leash our investigative!?!?
My bad for thinking you townread Mara - it would be easier if you just said you null read them tho
In post 739, word321 wrote:If u ask me, there is some degree of scumhunting thorough the whole game
My argument was never that there was no attempts at scumhunting, it was that those attempts are 1 prompted by others and 2 are lackluster.
Asking a simple question without any meaningful followup is not scumhunting. Providing reads (esp. with no evidence) is not scumhunting.
If you read back 178 and 193, the only actual action taken is
prompted by deimos
. Check back through the iso. Every time you think you see an example of scumhunting, check for someone prompting it. You will find it
In post 739, word321 wrote:I am known to comment and "help" and whatnots on other games, so I think that associating scum with that being deliberative of some sorts is a very very weak tell.
I also defend others a lot and thus don't use guilt by association arguments until flips.
As far as the Midari/PP slot: really? Just compare Midari and Marashu's ISOs. If you honestly think these two players represent the same experience/competence level you are lying. Midari clearly attempts to play pro-town (poorly), but also gets sidetracked from her natural play because.... there's a wagon on her for most of the day! Which is a natural reaction, *especially* for someone who is less experienced! You using this as evidence for Midari>Marshu just reads disingenuous.
My main point that I would like you to address
(ik you're worded out so you dont have to respond to all this) is that you seem to discount the simplest solution and stretch out arguments to paint the Mara wagon as scummy. You say only BM's post motivated the wagon, but yeah, people were thinking along the same lines and agreed with the post? Why is that a bad thing? You say people have been quick and innate to call Midari town. Yeah, because they think she's town lol? You have done a great job at dressing up the argument to make it appear nuanced, but really you are just adding unnecessary suspicion to pretty normal game events. That's why I can turn around and say "AHA! You have an innate urge to not scumread Marashu, very interesting...".
in your opening post you implied you would be less good than votato...
Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:34 am
by Battle Mage
i'm fine with marashu claiming, only on the proviso that if he claims vanilla we actually lynch him. I'm fking sick of these setups where we just run up a bunch of people and out all the PRs.
Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:45 am
by word321
I still thinl that most of the arguments by exclusivity dnt hold (as in, he dsnt have the single worst scumhunt to warrant such a
smooth
wagon)
I think most of the time the simplest solution us the easiest for scum to take
(Scum usually wants to take the least energy path).
Again, Mafia is a game of probabilities; I do genuinely thinl the simplest solution is to assume that Mara is a miswagon; otherwise there would have been plenty of opportunities to get out of that wagon (Midari was one, for example; again, I know Im not scum and that only leaves drew and the small wagon trabsition that never fully concreted).
Both Deimls and u liking the idea of a midari town, both slots that I openly questioned before, dstn help in that regard.
I dnr see the protown Midari/Penguin and yada yada; but saying that she got sidetracked by the natural play for constant wagons is, again, not an argument; the case deals with both her actions on wagon and outside wagon, and doing wagons IS our main way to prospecting info and reactions.
ninjaed by BM
