Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[Oxy]

@Oxy - I'm going to just be really honest. If you have pressing questions you want me to answer, it would be cool if you just re-stated them. I can honestly say I have read every post in the game. I cannot honestly say I even remember the questions you are referring to or what reasons I didn't add them to multi-quote and answer.

Given that I am on the edge of being a compromise day one lynch, mostly because I'm not posting nearly as much as normal, it seems to me that it would be best if I said as much of potential use as I can before that potentially happens.

Productive content of any sort would be greatly appreciated.

[Scioness Sajj]

so, for example, who's your top scumread right now? from 762 i get that you're waiting to place a vote with your case on someone – why delay specifically for something so composed as opposed to just sharing your thoughts?

I would like to lynch ruru today. I think it's more efficient for me and everybody to just post my case and start talking with people. I'm also pretty convinced that I want to vote her today but she isn't really anybody's pick so I will have to convince people.

(would you actually like compositional advice? i started typing some but i don't want to come across as condescending)

Sure, communication is part of the game. You can give me some pointers here or after the game or whenever you feel like. I'm open to all feedback.

I think part of the problem is that I don't write in order. Sometimes I start by writing a sentence from the middle, sometimes I have the end of the message before anything else. But that's how I write in both languages (and have about the same problem when writing in both). Also, I'm a lot more focused on getting answers than being understood and I think it's showing.

[Scioness Sajj]

I would also like to see more content from NSG.

I don't see anywhere better to place my vote right now.

I would like to make it crystal clear that I am not advocating for a quick lynch, a lolhammer, someone to post intent to hammer, or NSG to feel even minor agita as a result of these votes. In fact, it might be better for the game if we just remove the voting mechanism entirely.~~~~~~

VOTE: NSG

Why are you votng your null read over your scumlean Drixx and possible scum!skitter?

I think we're going to get another extension because we're about to need a replacement for eth0s. With the extra time, I want to see more content from NSG. I said that with the vote.

Well, you didn't ask if we will get another extension and mod didn't even start looking for a replacement. That's a big assumption.

It looked to me like you have jumped onto a counter wagon, because you were afraid you are about to get lynched and people were looking into NSG.

[Oxy]

I think we're going to get another extension because we're about to need a replacement for eth0s. With the extra time,

I want to see more content from NSG

. I said that with the vote.

is there some sort of post or word quota that you'd like me to meet or is there something insufficient for a read or engagement in what i've posted so far?

I'm sure a better player than I would have your alignment all locked up by now. I just look for town, and I haven't seen it exude out of you yet. I'm sorry if you felt unwelcome.

[Drixx]

@Oxy - I'm going to just be really honest. If you have pressing questions you want me to answer, it would be cool if you just re-stated them. I can honestly say I have read every post in the game. I cannot honestly say I even remember the questions you are referring to or what reasons I didn't add them to multi-quote and answer.

Given that I am on the edge of being a compromise day one lynch, mostly because I'm not posting nearly as much as normal, it seems to me that it would be best if I said as much of potential use as I can before that potentially happens.

Productive content of any sort would be greatly appreciated.

I'm your huckleberry. Ask away. Let's get a dialogue going.

[Oxy]

First, I want to make sure you got your question answered from earlier.

Spoiler:

Sorry for the multi-post, but someone told me huge walls make people super apathetic.

@Oxy - Can you explain to me how you have a town block you have constantly been referring to since very early in the game and (so far as I've caught up) throughout day one? That strikes me as either a slip or some very irrational overconfidence. I'd appreciate a thorough explanation.

Are you asking me why I read each person in that group as town individually? I've given reasons for each of my reads as I've made them. If you have questions about an individual read, feel free to ask.
Are you asking me why I have so many town reads. The simple answer is because I have read each one of them as town. The longer answer is that I've probably made a mistake somewhere.
Are you asking me why I've been referring to them as a town bloc (or, more accurately, as "my town reads" or "team town")? I find it a convenient way of referring to multiple people, all of whom I read as town.
I'd appreciate a thorough explanation of your question so that I can answer it better. I'd also appreciate thorough explanations for the rest of the questions you have been asked in this thread and have as of yet declined to answer.

Second, could you talk to me about any reads you have outside of me and Ofrhz? I could have sworn you made a post with other reads, but I can't find it right now.

[Drixx]

First, I want to make sure you got your question answered from earlier.

Spoiler:

Sorry for the multi-post, but someone told me huge walls make people super apathetic.

@Oxy - Can you explain to me how you have a town block you have constantly been referring to since very early in the game and (so far as I've caught up) throughout day one? That strikes me as either a slip or some very irrational overconfidence. I'd appreciate a thorough explanation.

Are you asking me why I read each person in that group as town individually? I've given reasons for each of my reads as I've made them. If you have questions about an individual read, feel free to ask.
Are you asking me why I have so many town reads. The simple answer is because I have read each one of them as town. The longer answer is that I've probably made a mistake somewhere.
Are you asking me why I've been referring to them as a town bloc (or, more accurately, as "my town reads" or "team town")? I find it a convenient way of referring to multiple people, all of whom I read as town.
I'd appreciate a thorough explanation of your question so that I can answer it better. I'd also appreciate thorough explanations for the rest of the questions you have been asked in this thread and have as of yet declined to answer.

Second, could you talk to me about any reads you have outside of me and Ofrhz? I could have sworn you made a post with other reads, but I can't find it right now.

I have it noted that I didn't think Sajj was scum from that early fight.

I'm concerned about Skitter. Keeps bringing up a previous newbie game where I wasn't very active and implying that since I was scum there I must be scum here. The problem is that I was in several games at that time, and my activity was the same in all of them, but alignment was not. Skitter knows this and knows activity isn't alignment related for me. A little concerned that I can't remember much else game related from Skitter and there's nothing in my notes to watch for. That is usually indicative of a really inactive slot or someone doing their best not to put out content to be read by.

Don't feel strongly enough about the other few slots to say anything atm.

[Drixx]

BTW - I'm literally giving this game one of my monitors and refreshing a few times an hour. You have my full attention.

[Oxy]

I made a mental note about that exact comment by Skitter. I noted earlier that this would be a really odd game for you to go against your claimed meta. I found her understanding of my intentions regarding your wagon odd as well. On the other hand, you said this:

Okay, team town (Ruru, Ofrhz, Skitter30), I think it would behoove us to coordinate our pressure. My preference for targets would be, in order, Eth0s, Drixx, Sajj, NSG. That's not in order of scumminess, but rather of priority. I would be happy with any of them! Ofrhz seems to prefer drixx. Ruru and I are already on Eth0s.

Plan? I think we should put them at L-1, give them 24 hours to post something that isn't garbage, and then hammer them if they don't. End of day is not really all that far away, and right now I'm worried that we're going to disperse to our own corners and sit on our thumbs.

Thoughts?

P.S. @Pinturicchio I'm not giving you a team jersey yet, but you can drop the hammer if/when it becomes appropriate.

This is a really bad post. There's also a really bad post much later where Oxy makes the "Scum wouldn't play the way I have" appeal. That's pure bunk. Unless I find something better while I continue reading:

VOTE: Oxy

You found much else that I said surrounding your wagon distasteful as well. Skitter, more than anyone else, made it impossible to attempt the plan quoted above. Does that make her townier in your eyes? Does it factor into your read on her at all?

p.edit I appreciate you making time. =)

[Drixx]

Skitter would always speak up against a scummy play, even if the outcome is desirable. That's NAI.

And I'm not saying I wouldn't be inactive as scum. I'm saying that my activity is never alignment indicative. Anyone who wishes can look up the user "Reasonably Rational" which is a hydra I play in and look for posts signed ~D or ~Drixx, which is how I sign so people know it's me talking and not Cerb. I think anyone doing such a search would find my active and inactive times are consistent across all games.

[Oxy]

I understood what you meant. Is that understanding of Skitter's behavior based on this game?

[Oxy]

Also, why would that play be scummy? - assume for a moment that I am town. Feel free to give me an IC answer about strategy here, if appropriate.

[Drixx]

Also, why would that play be scummy? - assume for a moment that I am town. Feel free to give me an IC answer about strategy here, if appropriate.

It was the way you set it up in a post close to that one. You basically said that there were 4 options:

1.) Drixx is amazing and obvtowns so thoroughly nobody would ever lynch him

and then 3 variations of

2-4.) Drixx stays inactive or flails


In terms of setting expectations goes ... that doesn't look at all like you were trying to actually get a true and solid read. It looked much more like you were trying to set a paradigm where I couldn't possibly end up doing anything but something you would call flailing, and that's a pretty scummy approach.

[Oxy]

Skitter and I went through the second post that you're referencing in detail. I understand if you skimmed over it. That post was in response to a hypothetical question by Ruru. She asked me what I thought would happen

if you were scum on a team with either eth0s or NSG

.

How will this play out if Drixx + NSG/eth0s are scum?

well, I think one of a few things will happen

1) Drixx shows us why experience matters, convincing us that he is town and breaking this beautiful town circle to shreds
2) Drixx starts flailing/stays inactive, and his partner does their best to break this beautiful town circle apart (chainsaw argument)
3) Drixx starts flailing/stays inactive and his partner makes a case on someone outside the town circle but in our null/scum reads, again trying to break up this town circle
4) Drixx starts flailing/stays inactive and his partner stays inactive and we lynch scum

there are probably some other possibilities. It's a dynamic game. Trust your instincts. If one of those scum teams exist, this is where they will start to make mistakes.

I also said later that one of them could lol hammer you for town cred.

If you thought that I was listing all of the expectations, I could see how it would look very scummy. Does it matter that it was in response to a hypothetical that presupposed you were scum with someone who was not currently voting you? I understand how it wouldn't matter when reading skitter's actions because she misunderstood this at the time as well.

[Oxy]

ebwop: If you thought that I was listing all of the possibilities*

[Oxy]

I guess what I'm asking is, if Ruru had never asked that question and I had never answered it, would that plan still have been inherently scummy?

[Oxy]

What are your thoughts on my Skitter30 read from 316?

[Drixx]

@Skitter30

When analyzing behavior, you seem to be asking "Is there a reasonable doubt that this behavior is indicative of scum/town?" and if the answer is yes, you discount the behavior when forming your read on the player.

You don't like it when others attribute their reads to behaviors that haven't passed that test in your mind, and you argue against it. I believe that this has had a moderating effect on the game to some degree.

This behavior is seriously pro town. Pro town play is not necessarily alignment indicative. That said, I think that maintaining your current playstyle while playing to a scum win con would get much more difficult as the game goes on, and I think this playstyle feels, and should continue to feel, natural for town!Skitter30. +town points

You had a lot of hollow content early where you explained things like why someone might lurk, etc. I was looking for them to die down as we got rolling, and they have. +town points

As to the basics, you have excellent questions, and you usually follow up on their answers. Your analysis seems very reasonable even when it is incorrect. Your voting conformed early to the cautious style I have described, and has looked pro town in intent since having belatedly left RVS. +town points

I have not found instances in your post where the inner town emotions ring unambiguously clear and true. +NAI

tl;dr Skitter30 is playing a very townie game. If Skitter30 is scum, I expect her to basically scum claim by Lylo.

This is pretty spot on. Skitter is good enough to take it to a win though.

[Drixx]

I guess what I'm asking is, if Ruru had never asked that question and I had never answered it, would that plan still have been inherently scummy?

I personally don't think it's townie to threaten someone with a 24 hours to respond or they get lynched, especially on day one. More especially if that person indicated their activity would be less than ideal.

So ... maybe less in your face, but still not a course of action that feels very townie, even with the further explanation.

That said: we do need to lynch

someone

because no lynching is bad in nearly all cases and this certainly isn't a case where it would be good.

This has been a pretty active day one, and I'm trying to decide whether it's more likely that eth0s is a scum replace out (the statistics would suggest that being more likely) or not. At the moment I don't believe I've got enough of a "smoking gun" to seriously push a lynch anywhere. That's probably to some degree my fault.

If you have time, Oxy, we could talk through slots 1 by 1?

[Oxy]

I'm trying to decide whether it's more likely that eth0s is a scum replace out (the statistics would suggest that being more likely)

Could you explain this? I'd love to talk through the slots. Where would you like to start?

[Drixx]

I'm trying to decide whether it's more likely that eth0s is a scum replace out (the statistics would suggest that being more likely)

Could you explain this? I'd love to talk through the slots. Where would you like to start?

Playing as scum is telling a story. The more information the other players generate in the form of posts that have to be accounted for, the more complex it becomes to tell that story and avoid being detected. It also just takes time to keep up with an active game. That, I think, is why a lot of newbie game replace outs are scum slots. Like ... people who want to play scum will frequently watch for newbie replacement requests just because of how much more likely it is to be scum.

I'm trying to figure out if eth0s was overwhelmed scum who didn't feel comfortable trying to play scum in this game or just overwhelmed in general. That seems like a good place to start.

[northsidegal]

I'm trying to decide whether it's more likely that eth0s is a scum replace out (the statistics would suggest that being more likely)

Could you explain this? I'd love to talk through the slots. Where would you like to start?

Playing as scum is telling a story. The more information the other players generate in the form of posts that have to be accounted for, the more complex it becomes to tell that story and avoid being detected. It also just takes time to keep up with an active game. That, I think, is why a lot of newbie game replace outs are scum slots. Like ... people who want to play scum will frequently watch for newbie replacement requests just because of how much more likely it is to be scum.

I'm trying to figure out if eth0s was overwhelmed scum who didn't feel comfortable trying to play scum in this game or just overwhelmed in general. That seems like a good place to start.

will have to check the newbie stats thread, but if my memory serves, doesn't that statistic only hold true for newbie slots? (which eth0s isn't)

[northsidegal]

hm, scratch that – seems like scum SEs replace out at a rate far higher than any other slot.

food for thought.

[Oxy]

By the way, it was nothing personal to you. At the time, we had three basically inactive players. I would have jumped on a wagon for any of them or my scum read (at the time). I just wanted to get people to talk, and that was the only way I could think of.

I think Eth0s is legitimately overwhelmed. His posting in his other game coincided to short bursts of time, usually right before, he would say he was about to catch up, and they were about as frequent as his promises to catch up here. That said, I can see eth0s throwing in the towel, so I don't know.

[Oxy]

What are your thoughts on eth0s, NSG? You said earlier you couldn't verbalize why you found his catch-up scummy. Think you would have more luck now?