Open 798 | PYPX/Y+I/M | Game Over!

[Menalque]

look, whatever, I'm really burned out but I'm not gonna vote myself so can S&M and N_M just get here so we can make a decision either way

[Menalque]

honestly rn I'd almost rather be elim'd because my mood is really pretty low irl and idk if/when that's gonna pick up again, and until it does I'm not gonna be able to defend myself properly for lylo if we're wrong today

[Menalque]

like D2 was draining, today was draining, when combined with irl I don't think I have a D5 performance in me

[Menalque]

I feel like S_S using mechanics to justify voting me when the mechanics are weak evidence for me being scum is fairly +scum for him, ftr

Good, because that's not why you're at the top of my list. It's because I townread peta, and I trust your townread on Infinity.

you think I'm the most likely person to be scum yet simultaneously you think my townread on infinity is legit... mmhm

anyone who tries to push the bullshit ("we have to kill in the redirector pool" tomorrow is MEGA SUS)

Do you mean it's bullshit now, or it's bullshit in lylo? I do agree with the latter.

on both days. we should be executing S&M today (to see if the JK was bullshit while we still can) or we should kill Dave/maybe BB because those are the scummiest slots

[Menalque]

there is like, a vague case to say that Dave is playing too poorly to be scum but that's (1) just wine (2) he's been scummy throughout and (3) could be he thinks he can get away with it bc town won't look at the reads of dead town once I'm gone/just generally are too fractured to coalesce around him

[Menalque]

I mean, it is unless you find it very compelling that there's more than 1 scum in the redirector pool that we've looking at which I think is unlikely

i legit do not know who is scum otherwise

what do you mean

you're saying there /are/ 2 scum in the redirector pool? if you're not scum, then it's S_S or infinity, + 2 which are by definition outside the pool

I don't *think* S_S + infinity are teamed, but if they are then fair play

[Menalque]

where the fuck are NM and S&M

[Menalque]

seriously can we just do this so I can stop thinking about this game

[Menalque]

i'm just looking back at day 2 now

do you really think the intentional no-kill is a likely scenario, as in, at all?

why was this suddenly something you became insistent on today when you kept trying to get votes on lilith?

beeeeeecause now i know that it’s a dichotomy of answers: either lilith blocked a kill on me or scum no-killed

Given how bad lili’s content was, how weird her night action choices were, and how strongly skitt was scumreading her, I’m now entertaining the no kill as a real possibility

[Menalque]

If there was a no kill, I think S_S isn’t scum

I don’t think he’d do that

[Menalque]

+1 on that

[Menalque]

Holy shit, peta and I agree on something, what is this, D2?

[Menalque]

We’re here. @Mena why are you in such a rush? I was leaning Mena because it looked like he was trying to avoid voting amongst Peta, SS, Infinity but now that he has, I’m less sure.

...why would that make me scum anyway?

[Menalque]

I would like an apology from *checks notes* everyone who said it was an outlandish theory that scum would try to shoot me on N1 if S&M are town and scum tried to shoot me on N1

[Menalque]

I’d also like to end day even if it’s with me because my paranoia about infinity and hoopla is starting to kick in in a major way (that scum would white knight the town flip instead of supporting it, especially if peta is town which is... something I’m coming round to) and I don’t wanna get into the wine of deciding which scenario is more likely (scum pushing for me to die today or scum trying to set themselves up for tomorrow by engineering a TvT conflict today)

Probably for lylo you should really reread hoopla and infinity’s reactions to my cop gambit to see how performative it was, I can’t be bothered rn, but it did seem very clearing to me at the time

[Menalque]

Hi Mena

is there any chance you would post 800 times as scum?

just say no.

~Pooky

Err probably could manage that yeah but it’d be a struggle

I think I already mentioned that in my last high WIM scumgame I had less posts in 5 weeks than I have here in about 3 but still

[Menalque]

how weird her night action choices were

Why were they bad?

Who targets infinity and uncrowned at those points lmao

Lili’s whole thing was “I don’t really get mechanics” but lili is smart and no matter how busy she was she’s the sort of person I would expect to have skimmed the wiki article for play advice which is v clearly “use it as a doctor until scum numbers are down” yet every time she had to justify it it was “i was trying to hit scum” — despite that being ESPECIALLY bad as a play when we all thought there was a doc in the game meaning it was v unclear if she’d saved or blocked

[Menalque]

VOTE: S_S

Sorry skitter

[Menalque]

oh no Mena suspected Lili?

how could you after that beautiful romance you two had!?

Meeeeeeennnnnnnnnaaaa

I know but in my defence she was very scummy? And also I (now foolishly, although Dunn may have been even worse guillobait so maybe not that foolishly) pushed for dunn over her so i wasn’t totally heartless

[Menalque]

Mena why did you just switch to SS as soon as Peta mentioned ISOing SS?

Because I think I townread peta now lmao

[Menalque]

Well this doesn’t feel like town!pooky which.. would normally imply that you’re town, but normally you’re trying to pocket me not looking for excuses to guillotine me sooooo

[Menalque]

I don't understand what your point is. You think she was making pro-scum actions and trying to give town explanations? Or you think she doesn't know how she'd use a JK as town, but you know somehow?

I think her actions conflict with what I would expect of a town!JK which is to try and make saves not to create a shitton of ambiguity in the gamestate by generating ambiguous guilties and softclears

[Menalque]

Menalque Infinity peta I guess, but I don't have to feel good about it.

I feel like S_S using mechanics to justify voting me when the mechanics are weak evidence for me being scum is fairly +scum for him, ftr

because I feel like S_S, despite his earlier protestations to the contrary, knows my towngame well enough to know by this point that this is it, despite his respect for my scumgame

and you're voting me here because...?

so this is purely based in a hypothetical rather than any actual reasoning toward me being scum. got it.

VOTE: menalque

like what a garbage reason. pure dogshit.

I mean it's really gonna vindicate me when you red

not happening

I mean, it is unless you find it very compelling that there's more than 1 scum in the redirector pool that we've looking at which I think is unlikely

i legit do not know who is scum otherwise

it sure would be nice if smoke and mirrors would show up at some point

i'm just looking back at day 2 now

do you really think the intentional no-kill is a likely scenario, as in, at all?

why was this suddenly something you became insistent on today when you kept trying to get votes on lilith?

@Mena why are you in such a rush?

Deadline: 1 day, 7 hours, 45 minutes

probably that is why

i'd really prefer to not not wait until the last possible minute, although i understand your position isn't great, i

really

would like for you to at least be open about what you're thinking, you don't have to go ito detail but i want to hear something

All of this resonated with me and felt like he was really trying to solve/towny indignation at being scumread for a bad reason/the “well I’m not” when I said I’d vindicated with his redflip had towny “you’re a fucking idiot” energy which is not clearing as scum can make those posts but like idk if peta is that good at scum tonally and in conjunction with the other bits it really feels more like town

There’s one big thing giving me pause which is the post he made a page ago trying absolve Dave but mostly he feels confused and a bit frustrated and tired and trying to put things together and finding they don’t fit. Which is, uh, my feelings almost to a T

[Menalque]

I think her actions conflict with what I would expect of a town!JK which is to try and make saves not to create a shitton of ambiguity in the gamestate by generating ambiguous guilties and softclears

This is silly.

JKs should aim for blocks, not aim for saves.

Blocks create guilties - its like nobody would expect this person to be NK'd.

Saves create ambiguity - if a save is actually a block, it means you cleared somebody bad.

This is literally, literally the opposite of what recommended play is: you play as a doctor early game then shift to playing as a roleblocker late game

[Menalque]

Oh this is embarrassing, that’s not actually what the wiki article says

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Jailkeeper

[Menalque]

I correctly remembered the bit about it being much stronger when there are less players around but it doesn’t actually explicitly recommend using it as a doctor in the early game, I think I must have mixed it up with another role

[Menalque]

All of this resonated with me and felt like he was really trying to solve/towny indignation at being scumread for a bad reason/the “well I’m not” when I said I’d vindicated with his redflip had towny “you’re a fucking idiot” energy which is not clearing as scum can make those posts but like idk if peta is that good at scum tonally and in conjunction with the other bits it really feels more like town

There’s one big thing giving me pause which is the post he made a page ago trying absolve Dave but mostly he feels confused and a bit frustrated and tired and trying to put things together and finding they don’t fit. Which is, uh, my feelings almost to a T

have you never played with scum!peta before?

No, why?

[Menalque]

Have you?

[Menalque]

Oh

[Menalque]

VOTE: peta

[Menalque]

That substantially increases the odds of Dave-peta being a gambit then

[Menalque]

Have you?

yup

he shot me on night 1 when i was his scum partner and didn't even give me a headsup.

he used the town-cred from that move to win the game.

Incidentally, which game was this?

[Menalque]

No, why?

It doesn't sound like you have a lot of respect for his scum game if you are willing to flip him to town based on just that so I'm confused whether this is a real thought or you just realized you need to switch tacks because you are losing the 1v1.

Guess you’ll find out when I flip :3

[Menalque]

Incidentally, the day never looks like this if I am scum lol

I don’t get my partners to defend me knowing that if we flip a town, then I look awful and die tomorrow and then they prob die for defending me

I get them to bus the ever loving fuck out of me and to go for the win in 5p after using tomorrow to elim a slot doing nothing or who was defending me

[Menalque]

That substantially increases the odds of Dave-peta being a gambit then

?

what gambit?

Peta is claiming that he went for 1s watcher, which Dave has claimed as a role

I was originally wondering if neither 1s watcher nor doc were in the game, and that’s why scum were hesitant to go for, for example, skitter in the early game — bc they only knew about the watcher not being present, not about the doc

Peta’s claim means that Dave (imo the obviously correct choice to flip on play out of the “possible redirector” slots) was safe, and it loved onto being between (me, S_S, infinity, him)

I was thinking my townflip would look v bad for Dave and peta here and the way they’re tied together would definitely sink the other if the one is scum, but if peta has made plays like that before then he probably is confident enough as scum to make a play like that and to try and win in 7

[Menalque]

i've made somewhat gutsy plays as scum before but one like that just seems like -EV especially when it puts me in a thunderdome with people who are getting townread

...you mean S_S/infinity of whom one is also quite mixed feelings?

[Menalque]

fwiw if i were to gambit with claims here i don't do one that ties me to my partner so obviously and i probably just claim cop with a guilty for the free elim?

maybe, but outing as scum makes you far more obvious and can lead to partner associations

If you’re going for a 7p win you have to create associations to defend your partners (sometimes even if all are v strong individually)

Whereas if you’re going for 5p then you can bus earlier (prob yesterday?)

But like this game feels like scum going for a 7p win which means taking those chances on being linked

[Menalque]

Also just generally makes me feel like you’re a v ballsy scumplayer who likes a little spice which is not the impression I had of you before

[Menalque]

Peta is claiming that he went for 1s watcher, which Dave has claimed as a role

I was originally wondering if neither 1s watcher nor doc were in the game, and that’s why scum were hesitant to go for, for example, skitter in the early game — bc they only knew about the watcher not being present, not about the doc

Peta’s claim means that Dave (imo the obviously correct choice to flip on play out of the “possible redirector” slots) was safe, and it loved onto being between (me, S_S, infinity, him)

I was thinking my townflip would look v bad for Dave and peta here and the way they’re tied together would definitely sink the other if the one is scum, but if peta has made plays like that before then he probably is confident enough as scum to make a play like that and to try and win in 7

This might as well be written in French Mena.

Can you explain it like I'm 11?

>no cop claim but we know cop is in game
>cop slot must be in players above TGP, along with peta claiming cop
>lilith is confirmed not-it
>leaves (infinity, S_S, peta, dave)
>Dave is worst looking of those slots and prob the one to be flipped today without a claim
>Dave claims 1s watcher which I would normally totally flip
>peta claims he went for 1s watcher too and claimed he went for cop slot as a gambit
>this puts me back into the pool along with NM
>NM claims neighbouriser which we know exists and apparently can’t be scum because people love ignoring the problem of induction
>means the pool becomes (peta, me, infinity, S_S) as people no longer wanna kill Dave bc he can only be the 1s redirector (confirmed scum through not claiming during massclaim) if peta is lying about going for the 1s watcher

[Menalque]

Also just generally makes me feel like you’re a v ballsy scumplayer who likes a little spice which is not the impression I had of you before

how would you feel if i told you i won best scum player in 2012

not encouraged

[Menalque]

i've made somewhat gutsy plays as scum before but one like that just seems like -EV especially when it puts me in a thunderdome with people who are getting townread

...you mean S_S/infinity of whom one is also quite mixed feelings?

idk, were they? my perception anyway is that no one really townread

me

as compared to all of you guys and i'd like to think if that is my perception currently as town it'd likely be the same if i was scum. i think not many people townread smart but people were kinda sheeping skitter there? even though there was never really an expressed reason for it. but i came into the day with a clear idea of what the mechanics around claims were and doing a watcher claim that ties me to dave is pretty much the worst one i could make

Yes but by the very nature of doing a gambit you then get to say “but would I do this gambit as scum” (which is what you’ve done, like every time you say “I would have just claimed cop and false guiltied”) and that makes you get TR more

I refuse to believe that if you won best scumplayer in 2012 that you don’t know that by tying yourself to someone like that it makes you look townier bc “would they really doom two slots like this if one of them is to flip?” logic

[Menalque]

how would you feel if i told you i won best scum player in 2012

how would you feel if I told you I won best overall player in 2005. :3

Wasn’t the site like 10 people at that point :p

[Menalque]

Well what would you guys say if I told you I won rising star for 2019

[Menalque]

Sorry I thought we were just listing our awards

[Menalque]

I won a prize for a poem for which I

heavily

borrowed some ideas from a book I was reading at the time (i was 10), and then won a small globe as a prize that I was meant to give back at the end of the school year so they could give it to someone else the following year but that I actually kept because fuck you man, that’s a really shitty way to give a prize

[Menalque]

Well what would you guys say if I told you I won rising star for 2019

mmm site player quality must've taken a dive or something

I am terrible, so

[Menalque]

Otoh it’s not like they’ll ever give me another one now I’ve started posting in US pol

[Menalque]

I am terrible, so

You are a gentleman and one of the finest players I know.

Now tell me why you're actually good here

Lies

I mean, I also think I already have? Like, the amount of effort I’ve made is +town for me, I’ve been the person most engaged in trying to solve ever since I repped in, and again, the way the game has been going just doesn’t fit with how I play scum — if I think I’m a liability m, I tell my team to bus and bus hard and win for us as a collective rather than risk the game supporting me

Lastly, I don’t think I make the NK N1 if I’m scum *given skitt’s position in the table* i would expect that I would be quite a good equity track slot for her, and she was in the position where tracker was very much what I potentially put her on before D2 and Lilith outing

[Menalque]

just because i have a reputation doesn't mean i'm scum,

That’s not what I’m saying tho

I’m saying more “I cleared you based on some assumptions that seem to be quite clearly false, and now that those assumptions are false I’m struggling to see why the thing of you/Dave is an implausible play for you to make as scum” especially when everyone has become incredibly resistant to guillotining Dave (whose posting today has been

awful

) and you seem much more able to defend yourself — plus you only need 2 more to win, so yes, it would probably doom you if you’d made the link earlier game, but at this point I think it’s a reasonably worthwhile risk if you can just win immediately from it tomorrow, and if you think the third partner has a good chance of winning 3p even if it goes wrong

[Menalque]

Like, I would totally consider taking a risk on the day before lylo to try and win the game faster because the longer games run on the more chance something might fuck you up

Got to strike while t’iron’s hot

Also, I hate going to 3p and 1v1ing guaranteed but that is definitely a me thing

[Menalque]

Right well, class tomorrow so I’ll leave you all with this:

[Menalque]

denied.

[Menalque]

on net i'm still concerned with menalque because i felt like some of his posts were just blatantly manipulative

Why is this scum indicative for me? And what distinction are you drawing between “manipulation” and “persuasion”? Like I have reads and opinions on what we should be doing, of course I’m going to try to get people on board with those things, why is that scummy to you?

[Menalque]

i have a sinking feeling we're just going to settle for mena today.

Yes, probably, although again, not actually super keen on peta because I wouldn’t say he’s the best odds of being scum here

[Menalque]

i'm burrowing through menalque's meta right now. i'm trying to find instances of him leaning on the reads of the dead to the extent he's attempted to this game, including eliminated players.

this is from mini normal 2163:

veng

well unless i think if town they will make a stupid veng kill. yds . The fact he claims to scum read yds means his reads are awful if he inst scum. Like a vig who kills town 3 times in row. You dont want to give them any chance to kill more town

the poe should only be osuka, dmath, bob , plus.

Any risk to that then, yes i will be against killing a claimed veng. Kill him last even if he is scum

And if my poe is wrong. Then im as wrong as anyone this game.

As the wagon gamestate just doesnt make sense unless there is 2 scum in dmath, osuka, plus

I don’t think bob retracts from this and now that he’s conftown I’m inclined to listen to this

Honestly if bob could just present as town he’d be a really strong player, I think his hunting is >average but he continuously fails to communicate well and comes across super scummy because of it

mena was scum, bob's reads were wrong, he'd voted to eliminate him the prior day. 1 granted, this is the only instance i can find of him doing something like this but the extent to which he's leaned into reads of the dead this game feels manipulative. i certainly can't find him leaning that hard on dead player reads as town. it especially bothers me because, obviously, skitter was wrong on at least 1 of her townreads and yet he's been trying to use her reads like a sword. 2 can't get over the push on lilith's slot today either even after it was confirmed there was no doc. or the way he dragged me back onto dunnstral 3 when dunn's logic had been similar to his own. 4 he gives me the feeling more than the other two that he's get people to do his bidding to move them, hustle them. 5 i want to stand by mmy feelings here regardless of how much emotional appeals he puts out.

i realize there's a certain irony in citicizing his sheeping the dead play when i'm telling people to sheep me if i'm eliminated but whatever

(1) I’m pretty sure I can find an example of me leaning on dead townreads pretty easily even if I eventually swing off it, I do it as scum BECAUSE I do it as town

(2) why? In my eyes that increases the odds of lili!scum because it goes from a maybe there was a town doc block on N1 to “no it literally has to be that she blocked a kill on me or is scum”. I’ve already pointed out the other factors (imo weird NA choices, poor content and a lack of solving, skitter’s reads) that lead me to going the scum side of the 2 options

(3) when?

(4) again, why is this scummy. Ofc I’m trying to get people to do what I want, that’s not the question, the question is what ends I’m trying to get them to do what I want /for/

(5) I mean I’m not really asking to be townread for my emotional reactions, I’m asking to be townread because my being scum requires me to have done things I wouldn’t do (like kill skitter the day after she stated TRing me or to try this hard to fight the day instead of getting my team to bus — unless your explanation is that apart from you my entire team is bussing but I’m so persuasive I’ve managed to get all the town players to either be on the fence or voting with me)

[Menalque]

What’s your gun-to-head solve?

Ehh

I don’t have just one?

If peta scum then probably (peta, Dave, BB/NM/S&M)

If peta not scum and I’ve been pocketed (you, hoopla, BB/NM)

If peta not scum and I haven’t been pocketed (Dave, S_S, BB/NM/S&M)

[Menalque]

Sorting through Best Bird, N_M, and S&M is going to be literally disgusting so at least I’ll be dead before then either way

[Menalque]

Best Bird has done things that make me think he’s scum and that he isn’t. Last time I called him scum in a game together, he completely flew off the handle at me, accused me of reading him in bad faith and started yelling about how I had to be scum, which he hasn’t done this time. Otoh, he’s low enough down on the priority of people town want to kill that he could... quite easily support my death right here and not be too suspicious for it tomorrow. So I guess actually, if peta!scum prob it’s NM or S&M for the final slot

[Menalque]

also menalque just keeps pointing at dave and going "dave post bad" but the thing is from what i can tell - dave is super placid as scum, him getting pissy only seems to happen in town games when people don't follow his idea of optimal mechanical play. this seems to happen fairly often. but, you know, if someone's posting

unusually

, point at it, yell, and call it scummy, that's how it goes. but it doesn't look like scum rage here

I mean

Have you seen his posts today tho? Or for most of the game? The guy has no interest in solving and is literally just tunnelling me. Which isn’t lockscum necessarily, god knows I’ve been in tunnels, but the complete lack of a desire to engage is why he’s scum — scum are worried that if they engage with someone who looks very town in those interactions (at least post flip) it will drag them down. So it’s easier to just repeat the same talking point over and over, and gives him the added benefit of not having to come up with excuses for why he’s both (1) not looking for any other scum and (2) not interested in explaining how I can be scum with anyone else — which is a point that still isn’t adequately explained from anyone voting me. If I’m scum, who are my partners?

[Menalque]

VOTE: Menalque
copy / paste plz

I doubt I even need to say what my preferred order is.
I view this as a 99% vs a 33% and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where the best odds are.

what do you think about my logic in 3665?

I quite literally don't care about it.
Talking ourselves out of a guilty is the fast track to losing.
I'm absolutely not voting anyone else.

Like c’mon this is not a town tunnel suicidally focused on getting me killed bc I’m lockscum (oh, also, Dave is claiming to be a mechanical player and voting me off a weak mechanical reason) this is a scum tunnel looking to make excuses for not doing jackshit. The fact he keeps harping on the same point (because it’s the only thing he can use to justify his vote) is why he’s scum

[Menalque]

I do think Dave is better than peta mañana for what it’s worth, but if Dave does flip scum then turbowagon peta in 5

[Menalque]

I mean dunn did fuck all and deserved to die, partly for his lazy ass tunnelling, but he did do some slight other things

[Menalque]

Okay, let me rephrase: Dave is either scum or incredibly lazy and incompetent town, but if he is scum he doesn’t deserve a win for playing like this whereas if he’s town he entirely deserves to lose

As he has decent equity here as scum (remember, once I flip town the redirector pool is down to 3 and two of those people are incredibly likely to share an alignment) I think it’s better to kill him

[Menalque]

I have absolutely no regrets about killing DGB and Dunn even if we lose

In fact, I think towns losing is actively good when there are multiple players who are half assing the game, and it puts pressure on those left to get better. You either need everyone to actually play as opposed to like, a bit over half the PL (what happened here), or you need to have town who are really really good (better than me by a lot) who are able to sort the lurksack do-nothing-all-game townslots accurately

[Menalque]

I just think it’s better to flip peta first since dave is unlikely to be scum unless peta is

Well, the way things are going it’ll be your decision to make lmao

[Menalque]

To think, after all this, even if town then does go on to hit twice in 2 days after today, it’s all going to come down to whether to PL NM in 3p

[Menalque]

(The answer is almost always yes)

[Menalque]

s_s/bird/lilith I guess

you really think there's any realistic possibility of a mafia nokill on night 1? i realize it's not impossible, but i think it takes a certain type of player to attempt such a play. i think that, if that team of players wanted to get rid of menalque, they'd simply kill him, rather than try to elaborately frame him

This game has proved frustrating due to the number of low-content/no-effort slots but to everyone who has actually been actively playing, I’ve enjoyed playing with you all, town and scum alike. I definitely hope the scumteam has a concentration of players in the high effort slots, if not then it’s disappointing that we couldn’t find each other as town and just elim all the non-players

[Menalque]

For those who haven’t played: I still like you, but it’s been very frustrating and irritating to put this much effort in just to watch you... not really try to solve at all, and thereby make yourselves really hard to read, at least for me

[Menalque]

I think I would request that town not eliminate outside of (Dave, peta) tomorrow, because I think even if S_S is scum the game is prob lost in that scenario as there are too many possible partners

Whereas if it is Dave/peta then you get 2 and the townies have a 25% chance of winning in 3p

[Menalque]

Maybe even 50% if there are NA shenanigans that lock 2 people into a 1v1

[Menalque]

They know it’s not a real guilty/the guilty isn’t clear enough to rule out me being town or disregarding the guilty in view of my play?

Like sure, if I were claiming miller on D3 after a hard cop guilty, that would be different, probably is always right to lim me. But you realise that you’re probably losing the game for town right now if you’re wrong about me and I’m wrong about you?

[Menalque]

You know Not_Mafia, it would probably be the trolliest thing possible in the game rn if you switched your vote to peta and forced a tie...

[Menalque]

Or think about this— if you unvote, Best Bird voted with us against peta first, you’d hold the hammer over literally everyone

[Menalque]

Two juicy available hammers, just hanging there for the taking

[Menalque]

Mena was

blocked on

saved from a

no

-kill night 1.

Ftfy

[Menalque]

Lilith thought I was scum, although I’m not totally sure how much that had to do with the cop gambit I was pulling last time she was in thread

And cool, does that mean you’re TRing me then?

[Menalque]

i'm burrowing through menalque's meta right now. i'm trying to find instances of him leaning on the reads of the dead to the extent he's attempted to this game, including eliminated players.

this is from mini normal 2163:

veng

well unless i think if town they will make a stupid veng kill. yds . The fact he claims to scum read yds means his reads are awful if he inst scum. Like a vig who kills town 3 times in row. You dont want to give them any chance to kill more town

the poe should only be osuka, dmath, bob , plus.

Any risk to that then, yes i will be against killing a claimed veng. Kill him last even if he is scum

And if my poe is wrong. Then im as wrong as anyone this game.

As the wagon gamestate just doesnt make sense unless there is 2 scum in dmath, osuka, plus

I don’t think bob retracts from this and now that he’s conftown I’m inclined to listen to this

Honestly if bob could just present as town he’d be a really strong player, I think his hunting is >average but he continuously fails to communicate well and comes across super scummy because of it

mena was scum, bob's reads were wrong, he'd voted to eliminate him the prior day. 1 granted, this is the only instance i can find of him doing something like this but the extent to which he's leaned into reads of the dead this game feels manipulative. i certainly can't find him leaning that hard on dead player reads as town. it especially bothers me because, obviously, skitter was wrong on at least 1 of her townreads and yet he's been trying to use her reads like a sword. 2 can't get over the push on lilith's slot today either even after it was confirmed there was no doc. or the way he dragged me back onto dunnstral 3 when dunn's logic had been similar to his own. 4 he gives me the feeling more than the other two that he's get people to do his bidding to move them, hustle them. 5 i want to stand by mmy feelings here regardless of how much emotional appeals he puts out.

i realize there's a certain irony in citicizing his sheeping the dead play when i'm telling people to sheep me if i'm eliminated but whatever

(1) I’m pretty sure I can find an example of me leaning on dead townreads pretty easily even if I eventually swing off it, I do it as scum BECAUSE I do it as town

(2) why? In my eyes that increases the odds of lili!scum because it goes from a maybe there was a town doc block on N1 to “no it literally has to be that she blocked a kill on me or is scum”. I’ve already pointed out the other factors (imo weird NA choices, poor content and a lack of solving, skitter’s reads) that lead me to going the scum side of the 2 options

(3) when?

(4) again, why is this scummy. Ofc I’m trying to get people to do what I want, that’s not the question, the question is what ends I’m trying to get them to do what I want /for/

(5) I mean I’m not really asking to be townread for my emotional reactions, I’m asking to be townread because my being scum requires me to have done things I wouldn’t do (like kill skitter the day after she stated TRing me or to try this hard to fight the day instead of getting my team to bus — unless your explanation is that apart from you my entire team is bussing but I’m so persuasive I’ve managed to get all the town players to either be on the fence or voting with me)

also menalque just keeps pointing at dave and going "dave post bad" but the thing is from what i can tell - dave is super placid as scum, him getting pissy only seems to happen in town games when people don't follow his idea of optimal mechanical play. this seems to happen fairly often. but, you know, if someone's posting

unusually

, point at it, yell, and call it scummy, that's how it goes. but it doesn't look like scum rage here

I mean

Have you seen his posts today tho? Or for most of the game? The guy has no interest in solving and is literally just tunnelling me. Which isn’t lockscum necessarily, god knows I’ve been in tunnels, but the complete lack of a desire to engage is why he’s scum — scum are worried that if they engage with someone who looks very town in those interactions (at least post flip) it will drag them down. So it’s easier to just repeat the same talking point over and over, and gives him the added benefit of not having to come up with excuses for why he’s both (1) not looking for any other scum and (2) not interested in explaining how I can be scum with anyone else — which is a point that still isn’t adequately explained from anyone voting me. If I’m scum, who are my partners?

VOTE: Menalque
copy / paste plz

I doubt I even need to say what my preferred order is.
I view this as a 99% vs a 33% and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where the best odds are.

what do you think about my logic in 3665?

I quite literally don't care about it.
Talking ourselves out of a guilty is the fast track to losing.
I'm absolutely not voting anyone else.

Like c’mon this is not a town tunnel suicidally focused on getting me killed bc I’m lockscum (oh, also, Dave is claiming to be a mechanical player and voting me off a weak mechanical reason) this is a scum tunnel looking to make excuses for not doing jackshit. The fact he keeps harping on the same point (because it’s the only thing he can use to justify his vote) is why he’s scum

Peta how would u feel about addressing some of these points

[Menalque]

understand that your slot had been under heavy suspicion all game because lilith wasn't really active and was likely an easy elimination

Some of this is true but the final bit is not — lili’s slot has been under moderate suspicion for most of the game — yes, that is heavily due to lili not doing much of anything, but how has lili ever been an easy elim? There is maybe a point to that slightly on D1 but since then she’s been pushed twice (or her slot, whatever) in two days consecutively by two people who are both able to strongly push a wagon. Neither skitter nor I ever really went 100% for it, but it’s notable how little traction the push ever got vs the amount of content lili produced — seems like the sort of thing scum would want to get on if it was being pushed by town, and that... hasn’t happened

[Menalque]

S&M has also now survived two nights in a row while being a claimed role, although granted uncrowned and skitt were much more consensus townreads

[Menalque]

so your role is the only explanation for the missing kill

*cough* no kill *cough*

[Menalque]

Lilith thought I was scum, although I’m not totally sure how much that had to do with the cop gambit I was pulling last time she was in thread

And cool, does that mean you’re TRing me then?

I’m saying that I want to see arguments based off of play and by itself Dave’s reason isn’t enough to decide my vote. I need to see arguments on Peta as well.

~N

That’s harder because I’m not actually sure peta is scum lol. But we went through the places where people were willing to compromise (check the last few posts in hoopla’s iso and mine right after that) and the numbers are only there for peta or me

I know I’m town and I think I’ve demonstrated that pretty well, and for that reason if we have to go between the two of us I’d rather go for the person who in the worst case scenario has a 33% chance of flipping scum and who if they are scum gives us another one as a freebie

[Menalque]

dude that's fucking ridiculous

What is? I’ve made like 4 posts with a multitude of different points

[Menalque]

I mean it would be helpful to not getting me executed hopefully

[Menalque]

I really feel that you’re town lmao but I also remember very clearly a game where maria and I spent the whole of EoD1 apologising to each other for voting each other on the logic of “sorry, I think ur town but I /know/ I’m town” only for her to be scum

[Menalque]

Also your 1v1 was very well done in 2033 but much more OTT than how you’ve played it here, but I think you’re aware of those things from your comments in the scum PT there talking about how newbies probably wouldn’t notice but you wouldn’t push it so hard in a non-newbie

So that makes me think you’d be very capable of making this look TvT and frankly your comment about starting a flashwagon instead of just... trying to start a flashwagon feels sort of lowkey LAMIST/protective for tomorrow given you know how I’ll flip

[Menalque]

If S&M vote peta and we don’t get confirmation from Best Bird/S_S that they’ll be around to hammer then I’ll self before I go to sleep

[Menalque]

I’m just saying that if we don’t have the numbers it’s better that you know I’m town for tomo and have 7p lylo not 8p mylo

[Menalque]

And if S_S doesn’t show me selfing would avoid that

He prob will, so it’s prob a moot point, but still

[Menalque]

VOTE: S_S

[Menalque]

I think anyone voting me needs to explain how I’m ever scum except with like, exactly Dave+ maybe S&M or peta at this point

[Menalque]

Like how do I make over 400 posts here defneind myself as scum instead of getting my team to bus the shit out of me? Because if I /do/ successfully defend myself, I’m going down tomorrow, right? Like, look at how much pressure is on me, the only thing that buys scum!me another day is a scumflip

Getting my partners to defend me would be suicide for the scumteam overall because they’d go down after their connections to me once I went down tomorrow. So, I’m only scum here if I’m hard bussing and the effort is to make me look really good. In which case, I have to have persuaded pretty much half the town to NOT vote me here even as scum are ACTIVELY SUPPORTING my death, and I’m good, but I’m not convinced I’m that good

So yeah, unless you think I’m scum with exactly Dave + one of the other people I pressured and who voted me or is leaning me, you need to explain why I suicide the scumteam and lose? Ego isn’t a good enough reason because I will demonstrably make pragmatic sacrifices to win the game even if I don’t /like/ doing them

[Menalque]

If S_S wants to explain that he thinks that and how he can reasonably think that while knowing me, I might reconsider

But right now I think he’s just scum for backing my exe here

[Menalque]

I’m currently thinking maybe S_S/NM/BB aka the initials squad

[Menalque]

S&M has also now survived two nights in a row while being a claimed role, although granted uncrowned and skitt were much more consensus townreads

What roles were they? If as Peta said she was being presumably heavily sr for inactivity then why would scum even want to kill her when they can get an easy misexecute on her?

Uncrowned was N3 vig unclaimed, skitter was UB turned 1s PGO unclaimed

Lilith was /moderately/ scumread not highly

Skitter was loudly scumreading her, i was at points but then briefly locktowned her due to misremembering the timing of her claim on D2, there were i think S_S and at least one other person locking her as town for claim (dunn, I just remembered) so no, she wasn’t “easy” as a target

Like, nancy, you can verify this in my scum meta: I always have a plan on how to win when I’m scum, and that means knowing decently far in advance who is dying and when. Look at my last scumgame, I think we had the order planned out to win by by the end of N1, and it happened pretty much exactly that way. My point being: I’m good at telling who will be an easy exe when scum, i think if you look at my last scumgames fromthe prior year I’ve been wrong once(?) about how misguillotinable someone was and it was a stealth hydra with krazy and kanna in it

I don’t push you here

[Menalque]

And if S_S doesn’t show me selfing would avoid that

He prob will, so it’s prob a moot point, but still

How did you get from here to voting SS?

I decided I’d rather throw my lot in for the person who’s vote on me feels scummiest rather than feel like I have to vote peta bc we’ve been forced into what I do feel is a TvT dichotomy that likely loses the game anyway

And I’d also kind of just rather lose to peta who’s played a really strong scumgame than S_S who’s been so passive

*shrug*

If S&M vote peta and we don’t get confirmation from Best Bird/S_S that they’ll be around to hammer then I’ll self before I go to sleep

MEEEEEEEEENNNNNNAAAAAAAAAAA

you wouldn't self on me would you? ? ??

+1

You mean to avoid a no execute because that is the only reason to ever do that if you’re town?

Also, yes, that is what I meant

[Menalque]

I wouldn’t hypothetically vote out a player who was obvtown by play solely based on being jk’d -

So then can you go and read my ISO and realise you’re describing me in this game

Also, idk how much weight you put in skitter’s reads, nancy, but I was her top TR by EoD yesterday

(Disclaimer: second was S_S, yes I still want to kills him today)

[Menalque]

The last time he insisted on doing something anti-town like this while claiming justification in the mechanics he was scum

[Menalque]

I can find the game 1 sec

I’d caught Pine (his buddy) and forced a situation where S_S (my very wrong TR) has to choose to save his buddy or kill him and he saved him using mechanics logic (pine had claimed either tracker or watcher or JK or something) to justify it

[Menalque]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11234840

Read the S—S iso from here or, if you have time, until the end of the day from there

[Menalque]

Like how do I make over 400 posts here defneind myself as scum instead of getting my team to bus the shit out of me? Because if I /do/ successfully defend myself, I’m going down tomorrow, right? Like, look at how much pressure is on me, the only thing that buys scum!me another day is a scumflip

Getting my partners to defend me would be suicide for the scumteam overall because they’d go down after their connections to me once I went down tomorrow. So, I’m only scum here if I’m hard bussing and the effort is to make me look really good. In which case, I have to have persuaded pretty much half the town to NOT vote me here even as scum are ACTIVELY SUPPORTING my death, and I’m good, but I’m not convinced I’m that good

So yeah, unless you think I’m scum with exactly Dave + one of the other people I pressured and who voted me or is leaning me, you need to explain why I suicide the scumteam and lose? Ego isn’t a good enough reason because I will demonstrably make pragmatic sacrifices to win the game even if I don’t /like/ doing them

If S_S wants to explain that he thinks that and how he can reasonably think that while knowing me, I might reconsider

But right now I think he’s just scum for backing my exe here

[Menalque]

Explain how town you ever makes your vote on me in light of all this?

[Menalque]

ESPECIALLY after secrets of the anuket topaz

[Menalque]

S_S, look me in the eye and tell me my alignment is different to what it was in this game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=83553

[Menalque]

my strong towns are mena and ss

i'm still weakly townreding infinity

everyone else is in my pool on some level, esp. if dunn is town

Well she was obviously wrong on Lillith. Hmmmmmm

Right, but you know how strong she is

Is it more likely she was wrong on or two things, or on everything?

[Menalque]

If nobody is around/we can’t get the votes on S_S then I’ll switch back to peta

If we get to when I’m fallo by asleep I’ll self unless we get a confirmation someone will be around to hammer at deadline

[Menalque]

What exactly are you arguing? That you as scum just roll over and die as your team busses you and somehow people don't find that suspicious?

No i put up a fight obviously, but do I double the number of posts I made in the game up to that point?

And, if I’m being bussed, do I real swing HALF THE TOWN into voting the other way

while my scumbuddies are actively pushing me

[Menalque]

Peta, simple question: would you feel worse losing to scum!me or to scum!smart?

[Menalque]

Infinity, what do /you/ think about S_S?

[Menalque]

I think he’s town

What do you think about him not answering my question?

[Menalque]

@s_s Do you at least see the conflict that’s happening in my head?

I see why it's plausible as coming from town, of course, but it still seems weird and makes more sense as coming from scum than from town.

I still want to trust Menalque and skitter on you, and I have been historically bad at reading you, but I think peta is town and you and Menalque both townread each other, so either I'm wrong about peta, or one of you is wrong about the other, or you're both scum. That's the conflict that's happening in MY head.

Apart from a general feeling of him having well-motivated questions, this felt particularly genuine to me

I don’t particularly see what’s towny abut this
Why would he not just lean towards one of us being scum and being wrong on the other?

[Menalque]

Peta, simple question: would you feel worse losing to scum!me or to scum!smart?

This is a dumb argument and you know that.

Not really seeing how that’s the case pal

[Menalque]

Like how do I make over 400 posts here defneind myself as scum instead of getting my team to bus the shit out of me? Because if I /do/ successfully defend myself, I’m going down tomorrow, right? Like, look at how much pressure is on me, the only thing that buys scum!me another day is a scumflip

Getting my partners to defend me would be suicide for the scumteam overall because they’d go down after their connections to me once I went down tomorrow. So, I’m only scum here if I’m hard bussing and the effort is to make me look really good. In which case, I have to have persuaded pretty much half the town to NOT vote me here even as scum are ACTIVELY SUPPORTING my death, and I’m good, but I’m not convinced I’m that good

So yeah, unless you think I’m scum with exactly Dave + one of the other people I pressured and who voted me or is leaning me, you need to explain why I suicide the scumteam and lose? Ego isn’t a good enough reason because I will demonstrably make pragmatic sacrifices to win the game even if I don’t /like/ doing them

If S_S wants to explain that he thinks that and how he can reasonably think that while knowing me, I might reconsider

But right now I think he’s just scum for backing my exe here

Explain how town you ever makes your vote on me in light of all this?

ESPECIALLY after secrets of the anuket topaz

[Menalque]

S_S, look me in the eye and tell me my alignment is different to what it was in this game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=83553

[Menalque]

Not really seeing how that’s the case pal

I mean the goal of the game is to win, not to avoid feeling bad.

You're trying to argue that because I have a minimalist playstyle I'm somehow less deserving of winning.

Yeah, correct, the aim of the goal is to win. In the case where it’s a toss up between two options, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to use other motivations to make your mind up, and for me one of those is “I think I’ve played a much more exciting and energetic game than you” so if you feel bad when you fail to beat the ~easy~ player and feel okay about it if you feel you just got outplayed, why should I point out that I think peta should vote you if he’s genuinely unsure who is scum to make himself feel better?

[Menalque]

I think he’s town

What do you think about him not answering my question?

Which question? Normally I’m not a big fan of “why would I do this as scum” arguments, because they’re wine and because I may just be lacking the imagination/information to see why a play would be correct.

But I’m saying, think about it for yourself? The argument I’m making? Is it wrong? What information could you reasonably be missing that would make it wrong?

[Menalque]

I don’t particularly see what’s towny abut this
Why would he not just lean towards one of us being scum and being wrong on the other?

Specifically, the last sentence. Idk what it was but it felt very genuine in a “yeah I could see you as town but I’m in a tough position” sense.

Bruh that looks a lot like him just mirroring your language back at you to try and form /develop anconnection

[Menalque]

hey ducky, i haven’t been toxic at all, are you proud of me?

[Menalque]

I do, and I have extensive experience with S_S too and I’m telling you I think he’s scum

[Menalque]

Right from the bottoms of my souuuuul infinity

[Menalque]

My souuuuuuuuuul

[Menalque]

S_S, look me in the eye and tell me my alignment is different to what it was in this game: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=83553

I don't know where you got the idea in your head that I'm confident on this

Like how do I make over 400 posts here defneind myself as scum instead of getting my team to bus the shit out of me? Because if I /do/ successfully defend myself, I’m going down tomorrow, right? Like, look at how much pressure is on me, the only thing that buys scum!me another day is a scumflip

Getting my partners to defend me would be suicide for the scumteam overall because they’d go down after their connections to me once I went down tomorrow. So, I’m only scum here if I’m hard bussing and the effort is to make me look really good. In which case, I have to have persuaded pretty much half the town to NOT vote me here even as scum are ACTIVELY SUPPORTING my death, and I’m good, but I’m not convinced I’m that good

So yeah, unless you think I’m scum with exactly Dave + one of the other people I pressured and who voted me or is leaning me, you need to explain why I suicide the scumteam and lose? Ego isn’t a good enough reason because I will demonstrably make pragmatic sacrifices to win the game even if I don’t /like/ doing them

If S_S wants to explain that he thinks that and how he can reasonably think that while knowing me, I might reconsider

But right now I think he’s just scum for backing my exe here

Explain how town you ever makes your vote on me in light of all this?

ESPECIALLY after secrets of the anuket topaz

[Menalque]

Answer the question

How does town!you justify voting me in light of all this

Stop dodging me and answer it

[Menalque]

Not really but you’re gonna have to wait until I’m at my laptop because of how you format your counterarguments

Although I am happy you’ve answered

[Menalque]

Bc now I get to explain how your reasons are made up to look reasonable while not actually being reasonable and we get to kill scum!you for like, the first time ever!

[Menalque]

vote count 4.17

Menalque (4):

Not_Mafia, davesaz, petapan, Something_Smart

petapan (2):

Infinity 324, Hoopla

Something_Smart (1):

Menalque

Not voting

: Something_Smart, Best Bird, Smoke and Mirrors

Deadline: (expired on 2020-11-26 17:00:00)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to eliminate.

mod notes

:
- quack

This night in the Open Queue, we have... Something_Smart starring in Schrodinger’s Voter 2: Eletric Boogaloo

[Menalque]

Bc now I get to explain how your reasons are made up to look reasonable while not actually being reasonable and we get to kill scum!you for like, the first time ever!

I mean my reasons are just "your claims are extraordinary and you have given insufficient proof of them"...

You gotta know what’s coming here, surely

[Menalque]

"your claims are extraordinary and you have given insufficient proof of them"

[Menalque]

Like how do I make over 400 posts here defneind myself as scum instead of getting my team to bus the shit out of me?

1 They are not mutually exclusive; also, if the wagon on you went super fast, bussing would be expected.

Because if I /do/ successfully defend myself, I’m going down tomorrow, right? Like, look at how much pressure is on me, the only thing that buys scum!me another day is a scumflip

2 Maybe, but getting rid of peta first is a pretty huge boost to your team.

Getting my partners to defend me would be suicide for the scumteam overall because they’d go down after their connections to me once I went down tomorrow.

3 Not necessarily, because there will be other people who didn't defend you, and they can switch over if your execution looks inevitable, and they can make the WIFOM argument that they wouldn't be so obvious.

So, I’m only scum here if I’m hard bussing and the effort is to make me look really good. In which case, I have to have persuaded pretty much half the town to NOT vote me here even as scum are ACTIVELY SUPPORTING my death, and I’m good, but I’m not convinced I’m that good

4 I mean it could be one on you and one off, which you seem to have completely ignored... and 4b even if it is two on, people have a tendency to listen to the loudest voice so it wouldn't exactly shock me if peta's whole wagon is town.

So yeah, unless you think I’m scum with exactly Dave + one of the other people I pressured and who voted me or is leaning me, you need to explain why I suicide the scumteam and lose? Ego isn’t a good enough reason because I will demonstrably make pragmatic sacrifices to win the game even if I don’t /like/ doing them

5 Because it's not as clear-cut as you make it out to be, and you may well have judged that getting peta exed today is worth one or both of your buddies tying themselves to you because they still have mis-executions available to them.

(1) says who? and besides, there's 4 slots, it could have gone up at a very reasonable pace (plus I would very likely tell my buddy to get on me first or second which would make it less noticeable for the other buddy if it did go up fast)

(2) why? why is getting peta gone first a "huge boost to my team" when again, it's incredibly incriminating for me today if I'm wrong?

(3) almost nobody does that though -- you know why? because mostly towns don't think about it on more than the surface level, which means that if you look like you switched away to save -- EVEN IF THEY SHOULD KNOW YOU KNOW IT'S A BAD LOOK AND THEREFORE AVOID IT -- that mostly just doesn't happen. a lot of the time towns just wanna flip the stuff that looks bad instead of thinking beyond it. so it could happen, but you're making it sound wayyyy more likely as a scum strat than it ever actually would be

(4) I mean, no, that's unlikely because again, this almost certainly buys my team a free elim tomorrow and then after that they wanna be as protected as possible -- that means both on. (4b) you're arguing I'm soooo talented and loud and obvtownie that I'm surviving two of my scum buddies hard pushing me? I mean thanks, but you don't honestly believe that. who would be the scum in this actual game? bearing in mind that again, my scum buddies HARD push me here for the cred, they don't half ass if they're on a team with me and bussing me. so who, of the votes on me, is my scum buddy S_S? not speaking in generalities, who are my scumbuddies in this actual game?

even with you 1 on/1 off thing, who would my partners be?

(5) again, why would I put such a high priority on getting peta today?

[Menalque]

this was very good tho and will be sharing to the "appreciation of funny content" thread postgame

[Menalque]

peta, infinity, any more thoughts on switching over to S_S?

[Menalque]

eh

done what?

[Menalque]

townspewed everywhere? I know

[Menalque]

in my defence hoopla, it is my wincondition to not die today and the best way I have seen to do that is arguing frantically with absolutely everyone to try to make them realise they're voting town

[Menalque]

also, I now want S_S, help me please?

[Menalque]

peta and infinity have both made vague noises about how they might vote S_S but unless you change over asap it won't be viable

[Menalque]

in my defence hoopla, it is my wincondition to not die today and the best way I have seen to do that is arguing frantically with absolutely everyone to try to make them realise they're voting town

also, I now want S_S, help me please?

what salient points have i missed in the last 6 pages? it's probably best if you can condense what has happened, as i don't have time this morning before work to read all that then respond to it.

I've basically been asking for explanations on how people (especially those who know me well, à la S_S, could really reasonably believe that I'm scum this game, and in the lack of those I am assuming scum

I decided that peta is actually probably town and that I'd rather try a last minute S_S wagon than vote someone I know is town, although I will switch back to peta if I can't get any votes on S_S bc at least I know my alignment and I could be wrong on peta

[Menalque]

^the current points being debated between S_S and I are him trying to argue/to persuade me that town!him would reasonably believe I'm scum here

[Menalque]

(1) it's not about if it's theoretically possible, it's about what's actually likely. it is not likely that I make over 400 posts engaging with multiple players that I'm town if the plan is just to bus me. I wish I cared enough to do that as scum, or had the WIM available, but I do not. I would put in enough effort to not make it look like an obvious bus, which would have been, idk, at least 200 posts ago if not more

(2) ...so what? if my team just buses me today peta remains available as a misguiilo tomorrow? it's my active contesting of him and play against him here that spews him town in worlds where I'm scum

(3) again, you're dealing in possibilities rather than what is likely. you are attempting to create a FALSE narrative that just because scum CAN make a WIFOM play, they're actually likely to. your phrasing betrays you; "I've seen people make unintuitive votes..." <- the very way you talk about it, it's obvious you know it's not the standard approach or common. that being the case, it's on you to explain why me as the scumteam leader (presumably) chooses a WIFOM play in this game. also, switching back later is MUCH harder unless the peta guillotine is actually close. it's never been that close, I've always looked bad. in the case they switch back to bus, the end of the wagon is nearly always where people look first

(4) I'm not discounting the fact it's not a foregone conclusion, I'm saying it's about risk management. if you think there's a decent chance you might go down, it's much better to have that event happen within your control. check my last scumgame -- kerset was going to be bussed, but not on D1 because we wouldn't get cred. so he fake claimed his way out, we executed elsewhere, then

I

lead the wagon on him the next day for the extra cred. the way it happened got me loads of cred -- if town had killed him on their own, I wouldn't have gotten any and townies would have, thereby making them harder to execute. scum is all about control, I know this, you know this, and we each know the other knows this. given that, it's much better to bus me for cred than to try and keep me alive, I'm too tainted

(4b) I'm saying if my partners were on me, they'd be hard pushing not sitting idly by. don't dodge the way of the question by making some generalist comment on pre-flip associatives. we are in a particular game. give me reasons related to this particular game. who, in the world where I'm scum, am I scum with? if you cannot come up with an answer, I must have no partners, therefore I must be town. if you continue to vote for me under that knowledge, you're scum claiming, it's simple as

(5) right, but again -- he's only in the position of being a mix-exe only possible today BECAUSE of my actions in a world where I'm scum. the dichotomy didn't exist before, if my team had just bussed, he would still be viable tomorrow for them

[Menalque]

I've basically been asking for explanations on how people (especially those who know me well, à la S_S, could really reasonably believe that I'm scum this game, and in the lack of those I am assuming scum

I decided that peta is actually probably town and that I'd rather try a last minute S_S wagon than vote someone I know is town, although I will switch back to peta if I can't get any votes on S_S bc at least I know my alignment and I could be wrong on peta

we barely have the numbers for you or peta, let alone SS. i'm not in favour of fracturing the town again at the 11th hour for a hail mary play.

the whole reason i pushed the town into compromising yesterday was to explicitly avoid this situation. chaotic last minute wagons where any vote can be justified almost always end up on town. seriously, i think the only way we get enough votes for SS is if he's town, as scum will happily push there, but if he's scum his buddies can just lurk it out for the last ~6 hours.

well peta just voted there and he was your top scumread about 24-48 hours ago

infinity will likely vote there if you do too

and S_S as town, even, will vote himself. if he doesn't vote himself at L-1 without the numbers for another wagon, it's a scumclaim

[Menalque]

I have no idea what's happening anymore ngl

I'd ask why you're voting me but I feel that would probably be redundant

[Menalque]

What do you even mean by "believe"

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... sh/believe

Like I would say you're maybe 55% likely to be scum right now?

mmhm, I would say that based on your knowledge of me, your generally very high level of intelligence and game sense, your level of confidence in the belief that I'm scum should be around 0-5% if we wanna put relatively arbitrary and meaningless numbers on things

[Menalque]

we tie him at L-3 highest wagon if you shift

please believe, hoopla

you said yourself is the day for making big plays

[Menalque]

like, of course it's impossible if we don't act like it's possible

that's totally true that's always true, but sometimes amazing things can happen if you just try them

like getting an S_S flip today

[Menalque]

hoopla, you remember how you were talking about wanting me because for you that was the only hope for winning, that I was scum?

I feel it's a similar situation here. I think if S_S is scum, then you/me/peta/infinity are all pretty locktown and we have a very good chance of winning form there

[Menalque]

I don't believe you are scum

yet you are voting me

[Menalque]

positioning noted

would sir like an S_S vote with that?

[Menalque]

could I make sir a counteroffer of the next two hammers in exchange for his vote right now?

[Menalque]

and maybe

[Menalque]

a little something else?

[Menalque]

wonderful sir, I hope you enjoy it to it's fullest extent! pleasure doing business with you!

[Menalque]

its*

[Menalque]

it's L-1 now

[Menalque]

me, peta, BB, you

[Menalque]

if S_S town/peta scum this is like the biggest throw ever and I'm so sorry skitter

if peta town/S_S scum it's like the biggest save ever

[Menalque]

I mean, again, if S_S is still around I think it would be a de facto scumclaim not to self

[Menalque]

also, infinity did say he should be around

okay

I'm going to bed now

guess I will wake up to either vindication or the crushing knowledge that I am doomed to have to play a lylo in this game, or to the sweet release of death if weird stuff happens

[Menalque]

I can’t believe I die for a misrep

[Menalque]

Pls kill S&M tomorrow

[Menalque]

You are about to have the two people who played this game hardest confirmed as town telling you that S&M is not a town slot

Pls kill them

S_S is also scum

[Menalque]

I can’t believe I die for a misrep

I knew you were awake dude

I was watching survivor videos but gave a passing glance here before I turned out the light

[Menalque]

We will take the responsibility if we’re wrong but I just let Mena’s charisma sway me and he is objectively adorable

Lmao

This is a scumpost

The whole thing is a scumpost

[Menalque]

only scum pull the fake "I'm going to sleep if this guy doesn't self-hammer he's scum routine" 5 hours before deadline.

You do realise it’s 3am in Spain, right?

[Menalque]

Yeah so?

I like to disconnect from forums before I actually try to sleep or I won’t get off

Then I like to check back without logging in

In this case, my BEING HAMMERED was as extenuating circumstance that has required my presence again

[Menalque]

fwiw you saved the game from ending in 7p, infinity

[Menalque]

thanks for modding ducky, wp scum

I share a moderate amount of frustration about this game which I may or may not go into later

I think a lot of my thoughts are already in dead pt tho

[Menalque]

I’m just happy that I eventually was correct on every scum before they flipped, although in basically every case it was at the 11th hour and I would have struggled to follow through on hoopla if I’d actually still been alive

I think the fundamental error here was placing faith in “mechanics” over calling scum based on play. Notable that of the 3 voices who spoke most loudly about mechanics, 2 were scum and 1 was Dave who was perceived so widely as scum for where his mechanics-based play led him that he was speed wagoned to lose the game.

I disagree with skitter that the game was lost when lili wasn’t killed D2, if my memory of her position in dead thread is correct — but i do think that TGP was probably the misguillo that lost town the game. I think if we’d either misexecuted Dave or, ideally, hit any scum there, then town probably clears through the PoE and there’s potentially a less culpable looking misexec at the end which maybe prompts more reflection from those in mylo.

Overall, I think scum played well and deserved the win, I guess I’m slightly sad about it because I feel like there were just a number of small mistakes that if they’d gone differently would have led to the opposite outcome

[Menalque]

i was hoping the continual survival of you and menalque would eventually start to turn you both on each other (from a why-are-you-still-alive perspective)

I think this normally only happens if we get to lylo, and even then it's like ~50/50 if it goes anywhere. I think the general pattern with skitter and I (although not always) is early interactions -> mounting suspicion -> some degree of conflict -> subsiding suspicion -> townreading

@duck gib mod and scum pt? pls? pls gib?

[Menalque]

pt release will be ~72 hrs from game end

cmoooooooooooon just gimme that sweet sweet read access to the mod one, you can't tease me by saying you talked about my dead PT reads in there and then not let me see what u said!

[Menalque]

"Infinity, I've thought about it and I'm really convinced it must be you. Dave is clear for mechanical reasons, as is N_M, so my only conclusion left is that you're scum. If you could do me a favour and pop down a quick self-vote, that would be lovely."

[Menalque]

the fact that happened under the barrel of deadline was heartbreaking because I maintain that the way S&M switched onto me /was/ a scumclaim but I didn't have time to prove it before being dead

[Menalque]

so about that mod pt

[Menalque]

but as scum, it's easy to overestimate how bad a certain action looks to townies that have no confirmed info. often times you can get away with more than you think as scum

big agree with all this in general terms, I think scum generally lose out from being too passive than from being too bold, and it's interesting that none of the *strong* scumplayers on site are people who would shock from making a big move as scum

also, the killing hyperposters at deadline post made me genuinely laugh out loud, so thanks for that

[Menalque]

and I would have made another 250 posts too, if it wasn't for those pesky scumbuddies!

[Menalque]

Hoopla's understanding of the game in the scum PT was really impressive. I wish there was an award for excellent individual scumplay that wasn't just a body of work award to recognise her in particular, but as it stands I'd probably also support a goodfellas nom if infinity writes one up. Aside from that, the mini scum freakout when I got the wagon going on S_S was very funny (doubly so for how complacent they'd gotten about both (1) my reads being off and (2) that it was inevitably gonna be me or peta)

@infinity, I don't remember if I said this in game or in postgame already, but you were really really fun to play with in the end!

p.s. sorry about the early game tunnel

[Menalque]

Subject: Open 798 | PYPX/Y+I/M | Mod PT (over)

terrible news: we are missing out on the comedy of a hood between menalque (

the most tryhard player i can think of on MS

) and not_mafia

*emphasis added

[Menalque]

I would potentially play if it was next year after TM depending on... everything in my life. I'd like to if I could