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[Dwlee99]

Just that I want to talk to Andre before day ends.

[Dwlee99]

From my recollection: D3 DotW was very paranoid of me, but DGB died instead. D4, DotW was still expressing a lot of paranoia on me.

And again, T3 hard townread me. I wouldn't make that kill. I could have killed STD if I wanted to keep DotW alive for whatever reason, because I don't even know what STD thinks of my slot.

[Dwlee99]

I don't think scum are multitasking and there's probably only one left.

[Dwlee99]

Koba are you okay

[Dwlee99]

I just want to know if you have a clear on chaos

[Dwlee99]

Okay so if you don't have a clear on Chaos I want you to actually interact with my case and not say to read his ISO.

[Dwlee99]

No

[Dwlee99]

Koba on rep in: complex thought is the pinnacle of towniness

Koba now: won't read my posts

[Dwlee99]

If you think I'm scum then prove my case sucks or is made up. I'm trying to communicate with you to figure out where we differ because VFP and I were connected on a lot of thoughts throughout the game.

[Dwlee99]

Your slot derailed a speedlim on Titus but okay koba

[Dwlee99]

Now that doesn't look good for me because we agreed on it, but like if I knew who I shouldn't defend because they're evil this wouldn't be mafia.

[Dwlee99]

But I also peeled your slot off of Cyrus and Anya day 2, and Gamma (who is town if you think I'm scum) day 3.

[Dwlee99]

I think Kyo's associatives are better with Titus/other scum. Chaos vote parked scum which is cool but is more indicative of bussing than actual cases and pushes (which Kyo did). I also have townread Kyo on play most of the game, whereas Chaos has felt null to me the entire game. I also think that Chaos' case on me is in bad faith, and since getting to E-1 he has resorted to sniping from the sidelines. He also said there was nothing to respond to in a large swathe of posts and said all I was saying was "nu-uh" when it had reasons to scumread him in there.

[Dwlee99]

What do you want me to respond to? So far it's me making points against you and you going nuh-uh.

Nope, I'm clearly just scum not answering you on purpose. I'm also so bad as scum that I would leave Gamma alive to clear people and not just kill him N3, because if he dies, I can just coast pushing T3, Andres, getting town cred on Titus, manipulating StD since he's barely paying attention to this game it seems like, instead of flipping my push to target you with no support while not being on my supposed partner's lim and looking like dogshit. I don't know why you're just solidly townread because you post a million times. If I was scum who played this bad up to this point and got myself here, I would have self-hammered already, I have no way to win this.

Koba shouldn't claim, this is just something to act like you're talking about something important while keeping the game state the same and making my lim inevitable.

If you're going to ask why they shouldn't claim, they don't have results that would end the game or they would have claimed already. In which case, no reason to give the scum more information, their role being unknown is not hurting town right now at all.

First post is bad (read context to see what I said before he said it)

Second is saying he would selfhammer as scum and I feel like that is 1.) BS cause it's playing against win con as only scum and 2.) Is just always scummy.

Third is just snipey and lashing out.

[Dwlee99]

It's funny when you leave out posts from your quote chain that don't fit your narrative, like this

Alright well, let's get this over with then. VOTE: Gamma

L-1

Chaos' progression on Gamma looks sus to me, I dont think we have to lim Gamma today. Rathe is simply not scum with osuka

UNVOTE:
I was this conversation to happen.

votecount 4.3

Gamma Emerald (4) :

Titus - ChaosOmega - T3 - Dragon Of The West

Exe-2

ChaosOmega (1) :

ssbm_Kyouko

Andresvmb (1) :

Gamma Emerald

Titus (1) :

Save The Dragons

Not voting (3) :

Andresvmb - VFP - Dwlee99

Day 4 ends in (expired on 2021-07-20 15:38:30)

, with 10 alive, it takes 6 to slap someone

annoncements

prodding andresvmb

flavor

summary : Animations (huge violence warning)
would recommend? - nah

What about Titus is she town?

I think we just go Titus.
Scum killing Nero show either a threat there or setting up Titus more. However, I don't think they target Nero as a protective PR, meaning that this wasn't a consideration when killing and most likely means Titus is lying.

VOTE: Titus

why would titus kill nero

i don't think nero is a kill titus would never make but i just want to see more from her today instead of jumping to a conclusion

i agree, im not saying nero is a kill titus never would make. i'm just saying it's also a kill that, if titus is town, scum still couldve made for that exact reason

I don't like these vibes really.

@Osuka Post Dunn flip? I don't see what would make it change. I like your point on vaxkiller and I'm fine throwing that slot out the window if we have to. I still think t3 is a good wagon and I want to say there though. Here are some of my thoughts on t3 summarized:

I don't like how T3 seems to be playing both "sides" of the game here, questioning the DotW + DGB + Titus town block claim but then voting with them on Anya is super weird. I also feel like his absence in light of the claim from Anya + wagon on him is weird, like he is hoping he can just pretend to have been gone and leave his vote there and conveniently avoid the wagon along with it. I know t3's playstyle is kinda like it has been this game, but I think trying to lurk through pressure is super scummy and made even worse by the fact that he is voting a slot that claims town power role and who I believe. If we could force t3 back into the game at least to lock him into a claim that would be great.

I was asking does the majority of the game consider dotw titus and dgb a townblock.

Vax/DGB/Titus and I think Petapan

I need to read more dotw. T3, I feel like your quieter this game, any reason why?

I'm not on on peoples town lists yet prolly, but I will be.

Does Vax not put any of his scum partners in their town block?

VOTE: Titus

[Dwlee99]

If you were acting in good faith you would at least note that I un E-1'd Gamma there, and brought up Titus and reasons to scumread her. You could still make your argument because I did vote Gamma later on even after my quick case, but you purposefully omit context to make me look as bad as possible

[Dwlee99]

If I kept my vote on Gamma at that moment, he stays E-1. DotW wanted it, you wanted it, obviously Titus did, and T3 was sheeping DotW.

And if he stays E-1, the day almost certainly ends in his elimination instead of Titus, because VFP was ready to hammer there.

[Dwlee99]

1.) Titus was pushing both sides of the 1v1, which Nero correctly pointed out makes sense that if Peta and I are TvT for her to do that.

2.) Yes and we have been over why I didn't agree with Nero there multiple times at this point. It was scummy because it wasn't actually doing any solving (which I realized later), whereas Nero was saying that calling me scum looked planned. I still don't know think that's true.

3.) I took VFP's side but that I ended up switching wagons is not remarkable at all given many flipped town or confirmed town did the same thing. Other alive players that we don't know the alignments of also did this. Andres said Nom was town. I think t3 and STD thought VFP v Nom was TvT. DGB had the thought process of "This looks like bussing but I'm not going to vote Nom anyway" which is actually terrible. I'm don't think DotW thought Nom was scum there. You would have to kill half the player list for this if you thought it was that scum-indicative.

4.) We have been around this in circles but yes I did more than just be a vote on the wagon. I started it and begged people to unvote Anya. Unvoting Osuka there was because I was unconfident in my reads. I say at some point "just don't kill Anya today." And I said this before but if I was trying to bus for towncred I would have just buried Osuka. I would have known he would flip scum and would just hard push it through because it would give me more cred. Carefully considering his alignment is not scummy.

Voting off Anya D3 was a mistake, but I think a natural consequence of "there can be a mafia announcing voyeur" and "fake claiming neighbor when there is a PT cop looks awful."

5.) I thought Vax also said he thought the Cyrus claim was fake but maybe I misremembered.

[Dwlee99]

You act like that's a gotcha or something. Yes, you're not like a cartoon character always making posts that are scummy because you're scum. You tried to look more town there with the jump off and discussion, but tried to railroad it right back to Gamma after the slightest wagon on Titus forms and defended her slot multiple times. That's why I quoted the votes for Titus there, to show as soon as she got votes, you were right there to suggest someone else.

I made the mistake of thinking you couldn't be aligned with her because you vote parked her which is why I asked who she was partnered with. Vote parking doesn't make you unaligned though, it actually indicates it.

[Dwlee99]

Here are some Chaos quotes from D4

I don't understand the wagon on Titus.

Okay fair enough

There isn't a strong reason to or not to when I'm clearly okay with yeeting her today.

I don't understand the wagon on Titus.

Maybe you can explain it for me then. Why is Titus a good lim today?

Okay just wants to know

Nero night kill, defense of nom, pushing the "neighbors," at the beginning of the game pushing the me vs Peta TvT fight, all of the reasons Nero/Peta/Anya were pushing Titus day 1/2/3, play being uninspiring, townread on Osuka and Vax (vax may have fluctuated between null and town I think I need to check), early aligning with the "masons," there is a lot there on rereading parts of day one and two.

It's a shame that none of this was true D3 and you had to vote for Anya instead of Titus.

On a not snarky note, does Gamma not dying N3 affect your Titus read at all?

That first paragraph could cut through wood

Kyo is in 3 of those 4 pairs, and I feel like you haven't questioned her or posted anything negative about her at all. That seems really weird to me. Is Kyo your top scumread?

Trying to get me to vote Kyo because I had her in two of my pairings (which I could have if I was evil and didn't want Titus to go through but didn't.)

I'm starting to think it's just Andre / Titus or Andre / Gamma with Andre / Titus being the stronger scum pair. But that's only because I don't believe Titus didn't know it was a fake hammer. Even if that was some how true, its just not how Titus town responds.

Andres/Titus doesn't make sense given Gamma's check pool.

Agree with Titus that the lim should be Gamma today.

Rip

[Dwlee99]

3887 is especially bad, because as I alluded to it completely reads like a chainsaw. No thoughts on all the points I made, just attacking me.

[Dwlee99]

1.) Okay sure she could hard shade me early if I'm her buddy but it also makes sense for her to push both sides in a TvT. But yea she did attack me super hard early and I had a sizable wagon to start the game.

2.) Scum don't have natural progressions but they also don't plan every single interaction out (or maybe some people do and I don't?)

I think nom reacted that way because Nero asked for what he got out of having me vote Rathe and he just made something up that he thought sounded convincing enough. That isn't "planning" the way I thought Nero was using it. ​

3.) I never said and don't think I implied my day one was dedicated to pushing nom. I said I took VFP's side because that is what I did. VFP said they were gladiatoring Nom and I said okay and voted Nom. It later dissipated but that isn't scummy and shows I was willing to hop on nom. I don't remember wagon specifics but I don't think that wagon goes through even if I stay on it (from memory I want to say Nero was pushing something else and I was with that or something).

4.) I did lead the wagon even if I jumped off and I don't think this is a thing that can be reasonably disagreed about.

[Dwlee99]

I'm uninformed, defending slots that flip scum means nothing unless I do it in an associative way. My repeated point here is that thinking that scum are town does not make me evil because I can't know if they're evil or not before they flip.

[Dwlee99]

Chaos defended Titus yesterday in an informed way (chainsawing me), I defended her in an uninformed way (looking at all the evidence and weighing if I think she is evil through it).

[Dwlee99]

And yes, starting a wagon on scum is townie even if I doubt myself at different points. I'm not infallible and I don't treat my reads like that unless I'm extremely certain.

[Dwlee99]

Koba I'm okay with the vote (still want to talk to Andres though) but also like any thoughts on what I said for why chaos over Kyo? Do you just agree or?

[Dwlee99]

why chaos over kyouko fypov

Spoiler: My Response

I think Kyo's associatives are better with Titus/other scum. Chaos vote parked scum which is cool but is more indicative of bussing than actual cases and pushes (which Kyo did). I also have townread Kyo on play most of the game, whereas Chaos has felt null to me the entire game. I also think that Chaos' case on me is in bad faith, and since getting to E-1 he has resorted to sniping from the sidelines. He also said there was nothing to respond to in a large swathe of posts and said all I was saying was "nu-uh" when it had reasons to scumread him in there.

What do you want me to respond to? So far it's me making points against you and you going nuh-uh.

Nope, I'm clearly just scum not answering you on purpose. I'm also so bad as scum that I would leave Gamma alive to clear people and not just kill him N3, because if he dies, I can just coast pushing T3, Andres, getting town cred on Titus, manipulating StD since he's barely paying attention to this game it seems like, instead of flipping my push to target you with no support while not being on my supposed partner's lim and looking like dogshit. I don't know why you're just solidly townread because you post a million times. If I was scum who played this bad up to this point and got myself here, I would have self-hammered already, I have no way to win this.

Koba shouldn't claim, this is just something to act like you're talking about something important while keeping the game state the same and making my lim inevitable.

If you're going to ask why they shouldn't claim, they don't have results that would end the game or they would have claimed already. In which case, no reason to give the scum more information, their role being unknown is not hurting town right now at all.

First post is bad (read context to see what I said before he said it)

Second is saying he would selfhammer as scum and I feel like that is 1.) BS cause it's playing against win con as only scum and 2.) Is just always scummy.

Third is just snipey and lashing out.

[Dwlee99]

Gamma is probably only scum here if there are two left, given he replaced in and immediately voted Titus upon being told the lim was between Titus and STD

[Dwlee99]

I think we should do it for mech reasons (if we even get there) but I don't think he will flip mafia.

[Dwlee99]

Unless the 2 scum thing is reality and STD is his partner or something. I'm pretty much locked on thinking the remaining players other than chaos are town though as long as STD is actually clear.

[Dwlee99]

Koba interact with a dwlee post challenge.

[Dwlee99]

Fmpov I'm arguing how things are (or, at least, how things are in a broad sense). For instance, I'm not going to agree with you that Titus was distancing from me (except maybe fake distancing to plant associatives) because I know I'm not partnered with her. I wanted to have a conversation about something else but we save it for post-game or in a cursed timeline if Chaos flips green next day phase.

[Dwlee99]

I have some posts about Chaos that I feel like Koba and you didn't really respond to if you'd like to look at that.

What I wanted to talk about was the day 2 Anya stuff but it isn't urgent.

[Dwlee99]

I also don't want to be confrontational ftr. It's frustrating getting pushed, especially when I feel like I have been solidly showing my town colors and I feel there are bad faith arguments against my slot. And even when they aren't in bad faith, the argument is just completely out of my control and feels irrelevant to how I view my slot.

The case against me, summarized, is about associatives. I don't think there are things people think I'm doing that are scummy (except that I change my mind on things, but imo this is to be expected when new info and rereading old info combines). It's just like, you defended this slot, you pushed here but were wrong, etc. I'm bound to be wrong because my day one reads aren't spectacular. I had 2 scum north of null and tunneled town in FIA WRC. That doesn't change my alignment, and I feel like there are other ways to read people. Now, associatives are fine if things are extremely out of wack (Titus didn't push a single scum player the entire game, for instance, and I feel like Chaos' one reads list was TMI and that he didn't push those reads harder makes it look like bussing).

But I dont think things being out of wack is really applicable to my slot, because I had real progressions on scum slots that led to their death, even if I wasn't confident in my reads the whole way. Now that's just from my perspective etc. etc. and you can think it looks like bussing if you want to. It's just not something that I can exactly argue against except provide 1.) More context on what was happening and 2.) Explain my thought processes at the time.

But that's why I was so frustrated, and I apologize for that.

[Dwlee99]

Controlling the narrative or trying to lead town. Your pick of words. Nero died, and VFP and I worked together to lead the direction of the town. Having a strong voice to >do things< is important and the game probably stalls out if we didn't do that. Defensiveness isn't scummy especially when Koba was doing that "night kill analysis."

I had good points and bad points. That isn't spectacular. I never said all of my reads are wrong. I had Nero/Peta/VFP all pegged as town. I made some votes on scum but got off the nom wagon. Etc. But yes, some D1 reads are bound to be wrong unless you solve the whole team (which never happens).

I did more than just suggesting it for both Osuka and Titus but we have been over that.

[Dwlee99]

I also just checked to make sure I remembered correctly, I only got off the nom wagon after the replace out and I went onto DGB who was positioning around the wagon with "I think it is bussing but I won't vote for nom" which was scummy.

[Dwlee99]

STD what are your thoughts on 4562 and 4564? It's also worth noting that if it is Kyo she is getting checked tonight.

[Dwlee99]

STD what are your thoughts on 4562 and 4564? It's also worth noting that if it is Kyo she is getting checked tonight.

i think it's possible i'm wrong about chaos but it does kind of seem like town frustration against you

And what about Kyo? Do you scumread her or just townread Chaos more?

[Dwlee99]

No objection from me.

Game should hopefully be over anyway cause Gamma is checking Kyo tonight.

Pedit: you are a ninja

[Dwlee99]

I do not believe you til I see the flip

[Dwlee99]

Petapan has taught me not to trust a claim like that even from the dead thread.

[Dwlee99]

Something makes me feel like gamma wouldn't be alive if he was going to get a guilty here (and I'm assuming he will confirm that). So it's either him or it's Andres/VFP!slot which is deeply upsetting

[Dwlee99]

I'm also against no lim here ftr

[Dwlee99]

Also lol dwlee imma be real i cant ever trust u again against my gut... too many misses, my gut is too stonk

I really thought I had him but I also thought I had Zyla. At least when I tunnelled Peta I realized he was town eventually.

[Dwlee99]

*jeopardy music plays, waiting for gamma to claim result*

[Dwlee99]

You should have said that after he claimed LOL

Why am I town now?

[Dwlee99]

Why hasn't gamma claimed target yet?

[Dwlee99]

Something makes me feel like gamma wouldn't be alive if he was going to get a guilty here (and I'm assuming he will confirm that). So it's either him or it's Andres/VFP!slot which is deeply upsetting

The fact that you continue to push me as potential Scum is genuinely aggravating.

If it isn't Kyo, it has to be Gamma, you, or VFP. I didn't say anything about which order I'd prefer.

[Dwlee99]

Why hasn't gamma claimed target yet?

To add on to this I don't see any reason for town!Gamma to not just immediately post result so I think we lim here.

[Dwlee99]

Okay now that Gamma has claimed result, I should probably real claim: I'm a macho rolestopper. I was hoping I'd stop at least one kill to get us back on odds so I fake claimed VT and it's why I was so opposed to getting checked, because then scum would kill me and I wouldn't be able to get us back onto odds.

Night actions:
N1 - Petapan
N2 - DotW
N3 - Gamma
N4 - DotW
N5 - Gamma

Not sure what this means between eliminating Gamma or Kyo first, I just hope we aren't in the world where there could be two scum and picking wrong would make us lose.

[Dwlee99]

We don’t think there’s any chance in hell that DGB’s clear on DotW was wrong right?

Zero chance. DGB flipped informed townie and had claimed it was confirming DotW is town.

[Dwlee99]

Scum knew there was a rolestopper btw, I don't think they blocked Anya day one. So it could explain not killing gamma, as I was most likely preventing it?

[Dwlee99]

I was insistently crumbing I was protecting DotW which is why I think he is alive.

[Dwlee99]

Sounds like as long as dragon lives I can't be mislimmed let's gooo

^ for instance, this

[Dwlee99]

You asked why DotW is alive. I answered.

[Dwlee99]

Okay maybe, but I was thinking that they thought they might be able to mislim me or waste a check on me?

[Dwlee99]

Conftown have died every night since night 3. So there's that.

[Dwlee99]

I'm trying to way the possibility of two scum in my head.

[Dwlee99]

I really used the wrong weigh there. Wow

I think I agree, except last large normal was 15 v 6 I think? How much different is that than 12 v 5?

[Dwlee99]

I'm trying to way the possibility of two scum in my head.

I don’t think there’s 2 main scum at least so IMO it’s nothing to worry about

A traitor still counts towards win con.

[Dwlee99]

VOTE: Kyouko

Just making it for sure. I used my role terribly but uhh it worked out.

[Dwlee99]

Spoiler:

Andre I am extremely certain that their no result claim isn't a lie given the progression. Please listen to me.

What I am saying is that the progression on Anya's results indicates to me that at the very least she is not lying about not getting a results pm. I believe that she 1. Tried to target Peta and 2. Was unsuccessful because why would scum claim that result unless they knew it was true. It doesn't make sense for scum to do that. I think, that at the very least, Anya is a 2-shot announcing voyeur. If you think that is a scum's role then okay I guess but I do not. Her progression proves to me that her role claim is not fake.

But it does matter I think for the rest of us that don’t actually know, because there is the potential here for a bit of a mechanical 1v1 that opens the game and you’re denying it I don’t know why.

There's no mechanical anything. Anya is just obviously telling the truth about her role.

But it does matter I think for the rest of us that don’t actually know, because there is the potential here for a bit of a mechanical 1v1 that opens the game and you’re denying it I don’t know why.

There's no mechanical anything. Anya is just obviously telling the truth about her role.

If she didn’t get a result, there’s a reason for it. Either petapan / cyrus is lying about their role (and they’re Ascetic), or someone was RB’ed/RS’ed. That’s what I’m hinting at.

Can someone quote me cyrus’ claim again?

Yeah sure and I think that happened based on how Anya's progression looks.

I townread Andres day four in part because I didn't end up dead after this interaction.

[Dwlee99]

Oh also, my frustration at the Cyrus interaction was because I was macho and he would kill me by targeting me. That was very tilting.

[Dwlee99]

Thanks. I'm sorry if it was frustrating arguing with me though. My reads weren't great (mb to Chaos), I kinda just stumbled onto voting out Osuka and Titus. Even though I did start the first one it just wasn't something that was a real read.

Echoing what you said. Nero had awesome reads (same with Chaos to the point I thought it was TMI...), and Cyrus killing vax there was huge.

I think everyone played this game pretty well and I had fun.

[Dwlee99]

In my dream Kyo was traitor. I need to stop having mafia dreams wtf

I had a dream that Titus and someone named Connor were the last scum. I might be playing too much mafia.

I am not the scum you are looking for.

lol

And I'm an oracle

[Dwlee99]

Thanks for modding Gypyx!

[Dwlee99]

Thanks Cyrus

[Dwlee99]

That does remove the negative that the role can accidentally kill me though.