Mini 2228: Isekai uPick - Endgame

[Kate Bishop]

I mean why are you even yelling about this when Cabd said he'd be back at it tomorrow night?

[Kate Bishop]

What post was where you started pushing to end things?

[Kate Bishop]

The reason I was crumbing watcher as well as neighborizer is because being reflexive means we get the info that a self-watcher would get via our neighborhood, aside from anyone who tried (and failed) to kill us.

tried and failed to kill you
that means you're immune to killing roles, no?

No. If we die, that's it for the neighborhood.

If we're targeted by a kill and it fails for some reason (say, protection), the player who tried to kill us wouldn't be added to the neighborhood.

fuck me

I assumed that was a response to me explaining that we're not immune to killing roles.

[Kate Bishop]

There's now another gated kill to think about, if what you're actually looking for is something that counterbalances what you've claimed.

[Kate Bishop]

ssbm_Kyouko

I’ve already hit on my reasoning about Kyouko, highlighting her posting frequency difference between alignments. Someone else mentioned her being in the forefront with shrewd thoughts, I believe this was DGB? I also don’t think scum-kyouko makes sense with how she’s played post-N1. Her vote on Dunn backs up her claim of a guilty, before she even claimed she noted ffery’s post about making sure that investigatives can out information. Of those who voted an actual wagon, hers is the one vote I don’t side-eye for this very reason. I also liked her reaction to the crumbs reveal, I feel like that felt like a genuine response from someone not used to playing with morph and myself, which would be hard to fake on a scumteam that likely was trying to decode them at earlier times.

I don’t agree about no-elim today. But that’s personal preference.

Wheme_Star

So, I am going to preface this with I am disappointed in how little solving Wheme has done throughout the game. But disappointment does not make him scum.

First off, I’m going to reference a Tenet read. In particular, Tammy’s read on myself. This is one of the things I’ve been mulling around in my head with regards to how he reacted to the overwhelming scumreads towards the end of Day 1. There’s no denying how high a regard he gives to the members of morph and LLD, and I think scum-wheme wouldnt play the confusion angle with regards to the scumreads on him.

Second off, he can only be scum with Cabd. If Cabd is town, Wheme is confirmed town. I’d even argue given the way everything shook out between that role, wheme genuinely looks pretty town. The “Oh wait I am the person youre looking for” after all the gammarci confusion seems too out there to be a cabd/wheme scumteam. Its such a ridiculously hard interaction to coach.

Third, and credit for this goes to fairylit- she mentioned his claim being awkward and inorganic in NQN, but his claim here felt natural.

Dunnstral

This is coming down to PoE. A common thought fairylit and I had day one that if there was a player that has us pocketed, it was Dunn. He hit every single note we had perfectly, and has continued this onto day 2. But therein lies the problem- I can’t remember a time Dunn has hit every note I have thought perfectly, beating us to the punch on several occasions.

There’s also the whole, you know, tracker situation. But yeah.

[Kate Bishop]

Attaboy.

[Kate Bishop]

man you really are leaning into this bad cop shtick huh

what post is this in reference to?

[Kate Bishop]

no derision.

I'm on the bike with my tablet. reading, but no great substance for a bit.

[Kate Bishop]

stationary bike

[Kate Bishop]

I was moreso looking at who scum would want to take out using the kill from my role. It happens immediately after lim but not in the night phase. That means it doesn’t interact with doctors and roleblockers, thus the roles it’s meant to deal with have to be ones that prevent themselves from dying.
LLD’s corrected claim just makes me feel worse, because I thought she was an ally in getting forked by the role generation but it turns out I can’t even take solace in that. It’s not like I could have gotten much better, I know for a fact that I was basically stuck with getting something shitty because of this flavor. I guess maybe Luke is the one I probably have the most kinship with because I remember he said the mod bullied him for his pick.

If you're town, yeah this role blows and I would be extremely bummed if I had a role like that.

extra-negative utility roles suck, but I have to trust that the mod has stuff in the game that ameliorates it (that or the game basically wasn't winnable in which case, I walk away with various lessons learned). I've been a town beloved princess twice offsite. Town won one of the games and the other I don't think the loss could be entirely chalked up to my role, though it sure didn't help.

Anyway. We know dead players are factors in the game. just because the living claims don't show a countereffect doesn't mean there isn't one.

I don't think it's realistic to expect other players to feel this on the same level you do, though. We don't know your alignment. We don't know if you're for real on this. We're all seeing the game in part through the lens of our own roles which we know exist. Most other data in the game is less reliable.

[Kate Bishop]

There’s also the whole, you know, tracker situation. But yeah.

I want to stress that as well as the POE, the tracker situation and the magnet/conduit aspect of Dunn's claim and the way it came out is a factor. I don't feel like his reaction to ssbm's results claim was a huge red flag, but it was kinda understated. More on this probably tomorrow.

[Kate Bishop]

Going back through ssbm's day 1, her strong focus on Titus' claim of potentially getting a track ability, and her comment about the gravedigger looks a lot like a tracker concerned about another tracking claim. That added to the way her day 2 play from the very beginning -- the no discussion vote -- telegraphed her eventual guilty on Dunn rings authentic.

in retrospect, I'm glad I insisted she be involved in deciding claim order, and that she went before Dunn.

gamma's pushback on that stance of ours doesn't look great.

[Kate Bishop]

Hi, bad cop!

In regards to that, most of the time scumslips just aren’t that. That’s not a thought scum would vocalize after discussing in the PT

ALSO, you don’t have to reread the whole thread. Just find those loose threads and pull and see where you get.

[Kate Bishop]

Hi this is bad cop*

[Kate Bishop]

This playerlist especially makes great use of PTs (mostly prefer discord tho)

This can be fact checked by LLD, Cabd, Dunn, Luke, and even gamma might know.

[Kate Bishop]

Kate's role too, my guess is they can still vig someone in their hood from the grave

maybe. there's nothing in our role PM that suggests such.

[Kate Bishop]

Are we still waiting on something btw?

Yes, we're waiting for Cabd to post the rest of his reads/thoughts.

[Kate Bishop]

I feel like my best chance of a course correction if that's what's needed, is grounded in seeing how you've processed the game and what your current thoughts are and why.

I feel like proceeding without that lowers the chance of a course change (correct or not) by a significant amount.

[Kate Bishop]

Maybe this is a place to start. You were convinced enough we're scum to go for the 1v1 at the start of this game day.

What has changed?

[Kate Bishop]

if you really don't have it in you to discuss this stuff, then I'm not going to try to drag data out of you. :/

[Kate Bishop]

What changed is that I'm not in the moment any more, and rationally looking back, I don't think that's the kind of 1v1 you'd have initiated. Not like that, anyways.

Is it stupid if I say it's too surface level of you to init a 1v1 with notsci being the badcop?

maybe? but it seems like you're looking at it from the wrong end.

speaking generically I usually go along with things my hydra partners want to do even if it's not something I'd initiate myself. Morph is a whole study in spayhalf doing stuff spayhalf doesn't do. I'm more cautious in newer hydrae than well established ones.

[Kate Bishop]

My point is that it's not really a question of what sort of 1v1 I would initiate as a scum hydra, because it's unlikely I'd be the initiator.

I'm not sure where the conversation is going either.

[Kate Bishop]

Here's a sketch of why we're scumreading you.

1. It starts with your manatee vote after Titus flipped. When Titus didn't flip at the end of Day 1, we assumed Titus' death probably wasn't happening for some reason, and we were avid to see how they both reacted to that fact at the start of Day 2. We held on to the thought that for some reason the flip might not happen until day 2, though. And then the flip did happen, and we had that discussionless vote where some player(s) not currently able to post (dead, or GiF) put a vote on manatee at the start of the day.

There was an approx 30 minute break between when Titus's flip was posted and when the votecount went up, with one vote already on Manatee. There's no way to know whether that vote was placed with the knowledge that Titus died, but I lean toward yes, I guess.

For the rest of us, though, we had 24 hours to take it all in, and two players voted Manatee -- and you were one of them. Which is why we voted you. We really expected the majority of players to choose no-elim, especially you. And you WERE aware of the situation the elim put us in: your first post of the day was to caution that we're at MELO.

2. Your scumread of us felt extremely reactive to our own scumread of you, and didn't seem to build out from there much.

3. Most of your interactions with us since then feel like you've been trying to get me to call off notsci, rather than to figure out/address our concerns.

and 4. we still are skeptical/confused that you got "masonizer" from our crumbs, when I made no reference at all to Action Dan (who was the masonizer in that game), and focused on my hydra and you.

There's a lot of additional words/links to the fullblown case, but those are the highlights. And I feel like hitting you with an essay isn't really going to be helpful given the circumstances.

[Kate Bishop]

You forgot (5)- the whemestar stuff i was promised, but okay. Not really sure how I feel about that but I'll tackle each as best I can, I suppose.

Your claim, and the whole katniss stuff is a weight on the other side of the balance. Regardless of alignment, your role could and I think did contain info about the character(s) existence. The way you went about day 1 is why you were a strong townread for most of the day, and it was marci's lack of activity that caused reads of both of you to deteriorate before she was replaced.

I dunno. I feel like the very fact that I went to such extremes to tell you about our neighborhood mechanic and to INVITE you to target us if you could should have come off incredibly town to you.

Your entrusting us with your crumbs had that effect on us day 1.

[Kate Bishop]

I'm gonna foodtell for a while. notsci is probably able to continue the discussion while I'm gone.

[Kate Bishop]

Hi I’ve been lurking

Lines of questioning and all that

[Kate Bishop]

I dunno. I feel like the very fact that I went to such extremes to tell you about our neighborhood mechanic and to INVITE you to target us if you could should have come off incredibly town to you.

Once again this is not at all what I drew from the Convo.

I thought you were targeting ME.

"wallflower"

but, I don't think this goes anywhere helpful. It's a matter of coincidences vs not, to some degree, especially with notsci's crumb and your post containing "troubadour".

What were your thoughts regarding Titus flipping that led you to vote manatee anyway?

[Kate Bishop]

Hi, just wondering where your heads at LLD?

[Kate Bishop]

Hi, just wondering where your heads at LLD?

my head is at: sobbing miserably because i am flying back home tomorrow and will miss girlfriend and hate my job and just am not really into this whole deal

we're kind of blending, so apologies if you're not getting 100% Rhi rn

I’m sorry to hear that :/

Ninja
Again with the SSBM Shit? Jesus fucking Christ how can you look at Dunn’s play and not see he’s in anti-spew mode

[Kate Bishop]

GuyInFreezer

Giffy had a fine entrance to the game, and there was a decent chunk of solving. Combining this with his claim, a role that removes him from elimination contention, I find it hard to believe he is scum. There are some issues in his ISO, (read:EOD1 hammer) but I still think odds are he’s more town than not. I think that hammer is a ballsy move for Giffy to make as scum.

When discussing with fairylit, she notes his confidence as one of the big points in his favor here- particularly in his final statements about us letting wheme slip through the cracks. She also compared to Illicit, where he played a much goofier game compared to his srsbsns play here.

Lukewarm

I’ll start with the elephant in the room- my biggest issue with Luke’s play so far was his reaction to the fakehammer. Gamma and I have already discussed this earlier on today, but I felt like it was not a genuine response.

That being said, there are redeeming parts of his play in this game (it’s why he's in the top tier of our reads!). I really liked him digging into Cabd’s claim, particularly the flavor parts. As those of us that were present during Bloodstained remember, he was very big into analyzing the flavor to try and sort out what is going on.

Second, his paranoia today has screamed town to the high heavens. It has thawed even my icy heart. 3601 reminds me of the Bloodstained Titus case. 3626 is just frankly, too batshit to be scum. My biggest issue with his recent readslist is I don’t think Gamma/Wheme make sense together, but I understand I am not everybody.

Lady Lambadelta

LLD’s claim is the very first thing that makes me think town, but I need to consider loltowndesharder. When I look at her play under the microscope, her notable things from day one were pushing to eliminate people who proceeded to both flip town. And I understand I am in a glass house here and not trying to dispute it, but it is something that factors into my read. We are both a little curious as to her vote on us over the no discussion vote. We wish she was doing more things today and I do hope she reads this and engages more! Particularly on the Cabd section, as I value her opinion on the topics I’m going to discuss in it.

Overall she is in my POE but I am leaning her town and Dunn scum.

[Kate Bishop]

I am dropping them a few at a time, Gamma and Cabd will each have their own post. This is the transcription I made mid-late last week.

[Kate Bishop]

God fucking dammit

[Kate Bishop]

I have very clearly said I think you/Cabd/Dunn is the scumteam multiple times.

Your entire day 2 ISO is discrediting us into discrediting SSBM, with some "LOOK GUYS MY ROLE FITS IN WITH THESE ROLES" for good measure.

[Kate Bishop]

Your trust?

Do not want.

[Kate Bishop]

GuyInFreezer

Giffy had a fine entrance to the game, and there was a decent chunk of solving. Combining this with his claim, a role that removes him from elimination contention, I find it hard to believe he is scum. There are some issues in his ISO, (read:EOD1 hammer) but I still think odds are he’s more town than not. I think that hammer is a ballsy move for Giffy to make as scum.

When discussing with fairylit, she notes his confidence as one of the big points in his favor here- particularly in his final statements about us letting wheme slip through the cracks. She also compared to Illicit, where he played a much goofier game compared to his srsbsns play here.

Lukewarm

I’ll start with the elephant in the room- my biggest issue with Luke’s play so far was his reaction to the fakehammer. Gamma and I have already discussed this earlier on today, but I felt like it was not a genuine response.

That being said, there are redeeming parts of his play in this game (it’s why he's in the top tier of our reads!). I really liked him digging into Cabd’s claim, particularly the flavor parts. As those of us that were present during Bloodstained remember, he was very big into analyzing the flavor to try and sort out what is going on.

Second, his paranoia today has screamed town to the high heavens. It has thawed even my icy heart. 3601 reminds me of the Bloodstained Titus case. 3626 is just frankly, too batshit to be scum. My biggest issue with his recent readslist is I don’t think Gamma/Wheme make sense together, but I understand I am not everybody.

Lady Lambadelta

LLD’s claim is the very first thing that makes me think town, but I need to consider loltowndesharder. When I look at her play under the microscope, her notable things from day one were pushing to eliminate people who proceeded to both flip town. And I understand I am in a glass house here and not trying to dispute it, but it is something that factors into my read. We are both a little curious as to her vote on us over the no discussion vote. We wish she was doing more things today and I do hope she reads this and engages more! Particularly on the Cabd section, as I value her opinion on the topics I’m going to discuss in it.

Overall she is in my POE but I am leaning her town and Dunn scum.

Gamma Emerald

Gamma is an interesting case. First off, let’s discuss their claim. 3768 gamma claims the characters looked alike, but when I compared Rem to Shiro I find it hard to believe this? I could be wrong but wanted to bring this to the general attention. The reason this bothers me ties in with the claim, as Cabd and Gamma have BOTH pointed out out, this is very similar to a certain Beloved Princess claim in a recently completed game. But therein lies the problem- I have NEVER played with a Beloved Princess. And now, all of a sudden, there’s two consecutive? This stretches what I am willing to believe. I suppose the point I’m positing here is if it’s possible that Gamma is lying but claimed a flavor that would fit a beloved princess. This can be taken as its entire own point, and is unique from the others as this is purely speculation on what is going on here.

Now, let’s look at marci’s play- hardcore lurking. As we all know, Scum-marci went down in three hours in Tarot. She has done absolutely nothing of consequence here, besides make one quote wall and make a post about why she was not doing things, but the slot coasted entirely through day one off of Cabd’s (incorrect) say. Had this not occurred, the slot would have most likely faced increased scrutiny. There’s also the notes from Luke about how marci is not likely to be playing the crumbing game like that, at all.

Coming into today, as I’ve already reiterated multiple times, Gamma seems of a one-track mind to discredit us. He admits to this in 3791, that a good chunk of his play today has been a pursuit of revenge for the S_S elim. This parallel’s a comment he has made in Haunted Village regarding MurderCat, one of the main pushers to follow a crumbed guilty on his scum partner. Note how he attempts to use shade over an incorrect read in an early stage of the game to try and pull favor. The strange part of this is his fixation on us. Yes, we did derail the Whemestar wagon (who Gamma now believes is town and has ignored this), onto S_S. But there were other votes on the wagon too. Particularly, Cabd. My issue with Gamma’s play today is that despite a devolving read on Cabd that Gamma speaks to in 3816, there is a dramatic difference in his approaches to us and Cabd despite both of us being on the day one elimination.

Assuming his claim is truthful, there is the core point that Gamma helped vote out the very role that he admits could help handle his role. And while we are on the subject of this vote, let’s take a look at the reasons Gamma gives for his vote, shall we? 3373 He notes it was a snap decision, but tried to change it in the notes PT to wheme. This is my first eyebrow raise, as it is hard to understand submitting an action one way then expecting a submission in another way to count? It seems like a copout. This then kinda gets retconned in 3937, which focuses more on the not digesting the Titus flip enough and ignores the supposed missed vote altogether.

A final note that bugs me is that his scumteam (from the time this was originally written) is similar to the same list WE posted, just with us over him. I find it hard to believe people think we make sense as scum with Cabd, but I understand I might be too close to the issue to see the big picture. Others can feel free to weigh in on this and tell me if they do see it, however. His scumread on Cabd changes as of 4125, around the same time he starts his "do a no elim" for Dunn!

Let’s discuss Gamma’s reaction to the guilty, shall we? He is staunchly in the camp to leave Dunn alive, going so far as to repeatedly attempt to discredit ssbm(4093, 4094, 4193, 4289). This is interesting to me, as when I review Haunted Village, I have Gamma insisting to leave his buddy alive based solely off a fakeclaim, attempting to ignore a crumbed guilty. We also have him saying not to trust us similar to how he tried to make people not trust MurderCat. A similar stance about not trusting someone regarding a townie trying to defend MurderCat. This is an example of Gamma stalling and asking for another day off the guilty, comparable to this, and this. Gamma's recent scumteam is both the person with the guilty and the person trying to see the guilty through! Who's the third? Dunno, you'll have to ask him!

In non-guilty meta data, Gamma pretending to be lost despite a guilty compared to a similar tact pulled here, despite a more drawn out day.

Cabd

This is the part everyone has been waiting for.

Let’s start with the claim. I’ve already said I find it incredibly hard to believe it is a happy accident Cabd posted my exact crumbed word four posts later, so I don’t believe his “I wouldn’t let a masonizer fferysci live” on that principle.

Second, even if I DO believe that, let’s look at his intro to today. It almost feels like he’s worried we had a guilty on him with it. But that’s how I feel about his interpretation to our crumbs. I just find it weird we are on such opposite sides of the spectrum with this given combined history.

I’m going to not go into Gamma associatives at this point, but I think there is a plethora of suspicious interactions there.

The manatee vote is absolutely awful. As much as Cabd’s tried to insist that it isn’t similar at all to Yggrasill, I disagree. He had a scumpool in 2512 that as the pre-day elim had multiple townflips in. One of which was Titus, who while not flipping at EOD1 did flip overnight and had multiple people with LESS setup background in the same pool of what happened. It’s really strange to me that Cabd would both not vote no-elim, and then be so singleminded and not consider all options before voting manatee. Manatee, who provides town a second elim and a second chance to hit scum. Who flipped town.

Now, let’s look at how Cabd has approached us today! The main focus of his posting has been us, which is standard. However, it is about our read, getting us to see his alignment. To use a bork turn of phrase, he’s trying to play around this tonally. There is so much focus on hitting the frustration that we can’t see his alignment (which is weird given last he spoke he was scumreading us, despite alluding to the read changing over the course of the day) but no focus on finding the scum if it is outside of him. It feels a lot like shutting down to avoid giving out any more information than anything else to me.

Even the morph interactions on 9/15 feel like Cabd is petitioning fairylit to change my read. There is a good amount of AtE, a lot of the same heartstrings I played myself on the backend of Bloodstained. But then consistently dodges opportunities to talk about the other members of the game- and I realize he is sick and am taking this with a grain of salt, but it’s still concerning. He likened my confidence to Yggdrasil morph, but with worse reads. Despite not commenting on any read but his own. This hyper-fixation on his own play instead of the world around him is concerning.

He even is trying to play a “Explain how scum me would play this role” despite knowing that a supposed scum-Cabd would know his buddies flavor, and could easily make a statement like that that would either A) be claimed with someone or b) be viewed as a red herring altogether. He explicitly said he wanted to play it how Bell should have played it, and I struggle to see why we should townread him for it? For playing the role to the letter how its supposed to be played with no variation, in a game where the entire context lies in variation?

I’ve sat back and let fairylit try to talk to him and get him reimmersed, and all he’s tried to do is “show her the light.” Cabd has shown he knows how to get on her good side, and he’s going all out to do that instead of trying to find the scum that we would supposedly be missing. That’s my problem with his play today, and this all is why I need a second opinion from LLD.

[Kate Bishop]

I have reposted the top three with fixed links, as well as provided easy access for those of you too lazy to do your meta homework.

[Kate Bishop]

Hi LLD!

We have some cases on the last page and I would very much appreciate your input on Cabd (but you can reply to any of them)

[Kate Bishop]

My biggest concerns atm are a) his manatee vote makes no sense as someone who said in his VERY FIRST POST it was about to be melo, b) he has spent most of the day trying to get ffery on his side and not solving (but real life is a bitch sometimes I get it) and c) his scumread on us reeked of OMGUS.

Ffery has a shorter version of the case with more individual points I can find after I eat lunch, but this is just a quickie

[Kate Bishop]

I got you

Here's a sketch of why we're scumreading you.

1. It starts with your manatee vote after Titus flipped. When Titus didn't flip at the end of Day 1, we assumed Titus' death probably wasn't happening for some reason, and we were avid to see how they both reacted to that fact at the start of Day 2. We held on to the thought that for some reason the flip might not happen until day 2, though. And then the flip did happen, and we had that discussionless vote where some player(s) not currently able to post (dead, or GiF) put a vote on manatee at the start of the day.

There was an approx 30 minute break between when Titus's flip was posted and when the votecount went up, with one vote already on Manatee. There's no way to know whether that vote was placed with the knowledge that Titus died, but I lean toward yes, I guess.

For the rest of us, though, we had 24 hours to take it all in, and two players voted Manatee -- and you were one of them. Which is why we voted you. We really expected the majority of players to choose no-elim, especially you. And you WERE aware of the situation the elim put us in: your first post of the day was to caution that we're at MELO.

2. Your scumread of us felt extremely reactive to our own scumread of you, and didn't seem to build out from there much.

3. Most of your interactions with us since then feel like you've been trying to get me to call off notsci, rather than to figure out/address our concerns.

and 4. we still are skeptical/confused that you got "masonizer" from our crumbs, when I made no reference at all to Action Dan (who was the masonizer in that game), and focused on my hydra and you.

There's a lot of additional words/links to the fullblown case, but those are the highlights. And I feel like hitting you with an essay isn't really going to be helpful given the circumstances.

[Kate Bishop]

Makes sense. We've been operating from a PoE standpoint and have strong reasons to townread-

SSBM (her play makes sense with her claim, the posting frequency chart I shared)
Luke (his play falls in line clearly with what he did in Bloodstained and also good bits of paranoia)
Wheme (Cabd clears, but also the meta dive we did and Wheme being baffled at the scumreads from players he holds in high regard)
GIF (confidence and role)

You are in null, but we think you are town.

Then we have Dunn, with a guilty on him
Gamma, who is playing to his meta when his buddy has a guilty and the only thing he has done all day is try to discredit us and ssbm
and Cabd.

[Kate Bishop]

heh.

[Kate Bishop]

Kill Dunn>Rolecop Cabd (and if he flips ANYTHING other than Informed townie kill him on the spot)>Kill Gamma. If we die and Cabd is just "Informed" y'all can look at a different third scum option.

I would like to hammer.

[Kate Bishop]

Both are scum. I just think it makes most sense to resolve the mechanical guilty first.

Not upset to kill Gamma first. I still want the hammer.

[Kate Bishop]

Because I would take great joy in not only dunking scum-gamma, but also being the final vote in the dunk.

Like, you think you're the swing vote, sure. If you take a quick look back at everything Gamma has done today, the main three things are A) discredit us, b) discredit SSBM, and C) try to assert his role has to exist. I don't know how often you've seen a beloved princess, but I have only ever seen it the one time and find it REALLY difficult to believe there's another one this soon.

Between Dunn and SSBM, there's a consistency in SSBM's iso that lends itself to the tracker claim. For instance, lasering in on Titus's gravedigger comments back on day one. The vote on dunn to telegraph it over the no-discussion vote.

Cabd we already laid out.

I know you hate walls but I have it pretty clearly laid out in my wall on the last page about why Gamma is scum and how his play around the Dunn guilty lines up with his play in Haunted Village when trying to defend his buddy from a guilty. I have quote links and everything.

[Kate Bishop]

Like, I *will* vote early if you make me

I just want to hammer for shits and giggles

[Kate Bishop]

That seems to be consensus.

As a side note, I don’t think gammas actual flavor lines up with comments he made earlier (Rem does not look like Shiro imo) so I’m not sure I believe that in the first place?

We want Cabd checked by Wheme overnight. But Gamma has been on a one track defend Dunn and Cabd mentality for the better part of the day.

[Kate Bishop]

As a side note if we have one of those no discussion votes again, let's do no-elim.

[Kate Bishop]

I don't know if you missed it, but Cabd is probably the optimal target for you.

[Kate Bishop]

Hi, I have a few spoons to spare.

Assume you may get ONE iota of effort out of me before syryana and I go deep metadive Genshin Impact, where do you want it?

I'm coming around to the idea that your solve is 2/3rds correct and I'm the nacho-xeno-hydra of this game.

Just... without the extra five elims to spare.

P.S. Wheme's result will be "Informed Guardian Angel" not "Informed Townie" but yes. I'm fine with this course of action.

The obvious question is who's the third, then?

[Kate Bishop]

Hi, I have a few spoons to spare.

Assume you may get ONE iota of effort out of me before syryana and I go deep metadive Genshin Impact, where do you want it?

I'm coming around to the idea that your solve is 2/3rds correct and I'm the nacho-xeno-hydra of this game.

Just... without the extra five elims to spare.

P.S. Wheme's result will be "Informed Guardian Angel" not "Informed Townie" but yes. I'm fine with this course of action.

tell me youre proud of my meta dive

[Kate Bishop]

It could be your problem, though.

I don't understand why you don't want to talk through it?

[Kate Bishop]

Assume you may get ONE iota of effort out of me before syryana and I go deep metadive Genshin Impact, where do you want it?

:hitoshrug:

[Kate Bishop]

I overestimated the volume of an iota.

[Kate Bishop]

I’m currently grappling with the fact that had my vote for Kate been properly counted during the silent vote I probably wouldn’t be in this mess, but even then there’d still have been questions

Would Wheme, our apparent cleared player being dead be a better outcome?

[Kate Bishop]

I overestimated the volume of an iota.

Spitetrolling is so fun, I see why Unwnd loves it so much!


(The third one is probably a UTR deepwolf salivating)

Noted. :/

[Kate Bishop]

Wait a minute

So one skill I managed to develop in the past few months is I’ve actually figured out how to read the thread during the night phase and actually synthesize what I’m reading (as opposed to in Smoke-Filled Antechamber where the night put my reading to a halt). And one thing I determined doing that this game you should NEVER have voted out S_S like that. There was a few things I found vaguely problematic towards the tail end of unwnd’s time in the game but for the most part the beeboy readability litmus test was indicating unwnd!town and S_S was nowhere to close to his scumrange imo.

I'd probably vote wheme atm but I figure talking things out a bit might be smarter for now

I snap voted manatee because I was still suspicious of her role not functioning exactly as she stated, I changed my mind later to wheme but I think I either wasn't allowed to switch or was supposed to PM the switch because I'd had a notes PT I posted my changed vote in.

btw my core townblock is still LLD+cabd, I'd also determined DGB to be town after seeing its entire progression into wanting to be eliminated, but it's dead now so too little too late

[Kate Bishop]

right.

[Kate Bishop]

I don't think you get to skate right past a slip like that.

[Kate Bishop]

Just so we're clear, this is the third time the story has changed.

First it was the mod ignored the Wheme vote.

Then it was you didn't think about the titus flip

and now it's you voted us.

[Kate Bishop]

Who's number three, Luke?

[Kate Bishop]

Sounds fine.

[Kate Bishop]

Both are scum it doesnt really matter the order. We have to figure out who the last one is.

[Kate Bishop]

Okay, Wheme check Cabd. Gamma tomorrow.

VOTE: Dunnstral

COBRA KAAAAAAAAAAAAAI

[Kate Bishop]

Cabd you need to get in here and convince me you're not the correct elim today.

[Kate Bishop]

Also are we eligible to vote no elim?

Stole the words right out of our PT.

[Kate Bishop]

errr, discord.

Hydra chat.

[Kate Bishop]

Have the mafia already guessed and the thread is unlocked on purpose or is this in secret like last time?

The past tense in the mod post suggests mafia have already chosen.

[Kate Bishop]

LLD, who do you think was the leading choice going into today?

[Kate Bishop]

Part two, that is.

[Kate Bishop]

Do you think Gamma is town?

[Kate Bishop]

Alright Luke, who’s the third?

[Kate Bishop]

Do you think Gamma is town?

Do you think Cabd can be scum without Wheme?

I don't. I think the Wheme/Cabd interaction was either town Cabd being REAAAAAAALLY confused by why his role is useless into oh there's my role.

Or scum Cabd being REALLY ANGRY that his gambit wasn't working because Wheme didn't claim quick enough.

I never think Scum Cabd town Wheme here.

So I'm not sure if Scum Cabd makes sense with scum Gamma. I feel like Gamma would need to be partners with someone else, at this point.

I guess I'm more open to the possibility that scum-Cabd is informed that a particular character is in the game.

[Kate Bishop]

Let’s discuss Gamma’s reaction to the guilty, shall we? He is staunchly in the camp to leave Dunn alive, going so far as to repeatedly attempt to discredit ssbm(4093, 4094, 4193, 4289). This is interesting to me, as when I review Haunted Village, I have Gamma insisting to leave his buddy alive based solely off a fakeclaim, attempting to ignore a crumbed guilty. We also have him saying not to trust us similar to how he tried to make people not trust MurderCat. A similar stance about not trusting someone regarding a townie trying to defend MurderCat. This is an example of Gamma stalling and asking for another day off the guilty, comparable to this, and this. Gamma's recent scumteam is both the person with the guilty and the person trying to see the guilty through! Who's the third? Dunno, you'll have to ask him!

In non-guilty meta data, Gamma pretending to be lost despite a guilty compared to a similar tact pulled here, despite a more drawn out day.

Please read this, LLD. This is the important part of the wall where I point out how Gammas behavior falls perfectly in line with a past game that had a buddy get guiltied. And then ask yourself why Gamma was so concerned about how long the day would last.

[Kate Bishop]

Fuck the links broke. Give me a sec.

[Kate Bishop]

Let’s discuss Gamma’s reaction to the guilty, shall we? He is staunchly in the camp to leave Dunn alive, going so far as to repeatedly attempt to discredit ssbm(4093, 4094, 4193, 4289). This is interesting to me, as when I review Haunted Village, I have Gamma insisting to leave his buddy alive based solely off a fakeclaim, attempting to ignore a crumbed guilty. We also have him saying not to trust us similar to how he tried to make people not trust MurderCat. A similar stance about not trusting someone regarding a townie trying to defend MurderCat. This is an example of Gamma stalling and asking for another day off the guilty, comparable to this, and this. Gamma's recent scumteam is both the person with the guilty and the person trying to see the guilty through! Who's the third? Dunno, you'll have to ask him!

In non-guilty meta data, Gamma pretending to be lost despite a guilty compared to a similar tact pulled here, despite a more drawn out day.

[Kate Bishop]

FOPOV scum had three options.

Protect Gamma.

Protect Scum 2.

No elim.

We’re currently weighing which we think is most likely for scum to pick.

[Kate Bishop]

Two things.

One, crow is delicious.

Secondly, did anyone else pick up that Dunn did NOT claim their flavor accurately?

Rimiru Tempest

Hello Dunnstral! You are Hakurou

FOPOV scum had three options.

Protect Gamma.

Protect Scum 2.

No elim.

We’re currently weighing which we think is most likely for scum to pick.

I don’t think they get it correct if it’s a no elim

No, those are the three choices scum picked between.

[Kate Bishop]

Have the mafia already guessed and the thread is unlocked on purpose or is this in secret like last time?

Also are we eligible to vote no elim?

The mafia have already guessed and the thread is unlocked on purpose.

You are able to vote no elim. The mafia were also allowed to guess that.

[Kate Bishop]

Two things.

One, crow is delicious.

Secondly, did anyone else pick up that Dunn did NOT claim their flavor accurately?

Rimiru Tempest

Hello Dunnstral! You are Hakurou

Crow?

[Kate Bishop]

Wow if only there was another player who’s flavor didn’t fully add up with comments they made yet seemingly have a perfect role for the flavor!

[Kate Bishop]

Two things.

One, crow is delicious.

Secondly, did anyone else pick up that Dunn did NOT claim their flavor accurately?

Rimiru Tempest

Hello Dunnstral! You are Hakurou

Crow?

I was wrong about my dunn read initially but I'm happily eating crow because mafia got eliminated?

We were wrong about him too. He was our page 1 townread.

You were more skeptical of him than we were early day 1.

There's a lot to eat crow about in this game.

[Kate Bishop]

What the fresh hell is this

What do you think scum did, gamma?

[Kate Bishop]

Do you have any guesses on the third member, Cabd?

[Kate Bishop]

We aren’t killing wheme.

[Kate Bishop]

How would you know the day would be extended?

[Kate Bishop]

Do you have any guesses on the third member, Cabd?

I have no idea why, but you addressing me by name instead of quoting me or making it implicit grates from a ffery hydra's profile picture.

It has to be Luke or Gif. I refuse to think it's you or LLD. SSBM has no need to make a cosmic brain partner guilty in MELO. And if I were feeling like a snarkier snark, I'd probably quote your thing about not writing off me being informed to apply to gif being able to hide for a day phase.

It wasn't a ffery post.

[Kate Bishop]

I don't know why it would grate either, then.

[Kate Bishop]

Who is "you" in that sentence?

[Kate Bishop]

What the fresh hell is this

What do you think scum did, gamma?

They probably want things to go through on me, because that gives them ability to rectify the numbers. There’s no way they picked me because that would mean giving up on that kill. I think Cabd is the one they chose to predict.
This is a lot to process on top of me trying to set the seeds for my egress from my current living situation.

I think your team is still us/SSBM. That is confusing when compared with this, because that means you think scum governed a townie despite (in theory) being just one or two elims from winning.

Im not responding to the OOG stuff.

[Kate Bishop]

What the fresh hell is this

What do you think scum did, gamma?

They probably want things to go through on me, because that gives them ability to rectify the numbers. There’s no way they picked me because that would mean giving up on that kill. I think Cabd is the one they chose to predict.
This is a lot to process on top of me trying to set the seeds for my egress from my current living situation.

I think your team is still us/SSBM. That is confusing when compared with this, because that means you think scum governed a townie despite (in theory) being just one or two elims from winning.

Im not responding to the OOG stuff.

I think your course screams scum motive with how quick you were to continue your crusade, kyouko idk because I think she just fucking hates me for some reason. But neither of those is set in stone, there’s so much going on rn.
The momentum is clearly against me and Cabd though. I know scum want my head, I can’t tell whether Cabd is in on things or not. The one voice I trust the most is the one I can’t even hear because they’re far far away.

From your perspective, what have you done that we should have realized we're wrong about you?

[Kate Bishop]

Nothing really, but I would think anyone would think twice about barreling ahead when faced with a sign saying “if scum can read the room they get free reign of this next elim”
And to talk on some of the actual evidence against me, I’ll admit my play does somewhat resemble Haunted Village but I have been pushing you+kyouko only because of what happened to S_S, and I’ve been clear on that being an issue since my very first post. So you can’t exactly say I’ve been discrediting anyone because of a guilty because my “discrediting” started way before the guilty.

We haven't decided how we want to vote though?

We're wading through the wifom wishing we had hip waders.

We do still firmly believe you're scum but that's a whole different kettle of fish in this gamestate.

[Kate Bishop]

How many DIFFERENT ways has Gamma "slipped" awkwardly?

Bloodstained day 2 is on line 1.

[Kate Bishop]

Do you have any guesses on the third member, Cabd?

I have no idea why, but you addressing me by name instead of quoting me or making it implicit grates from a ffery hydra's profile picture.

It has to be Luke or Gif. I refuse to think it's you or LLD. SSBM has no need to make a cosmic brain partner guilty in MELO. And if I were feeling like a snarkier snark, I'd probably quote your thing about not writing off me being informed to apply to gif being able to hide for a day phase.

I'd like to get back to this.

1. Thoughts on LLD's stance on you/wheme.

2. What has Luke done/not done that points to scum-Luke in your opinion?

3. Are you assuming that Gamma's the governor-like role?

4. If so how does GiF and what we know for sure about his role make sense in a game where Dunn's a PGO/BP, and Gamma is presumably a governor?

5. What am I overlooking?

[Kate Bishop]

Apologies in advance, this is being typed up mobile, so I won't be able to quote, will rely on memory and having your post in mind. Daughter getting off to sleep.

LLD's approach to today was your first question. It fits with the way her chosen contestant approaches games. I mean this not as an insult, but she's taking an approach like how you described Bell en hydra. Consider possible pairings, and try to suss them out. Killing Wheme here is an absolute loss and I strongly disagree with that notion.

Wheme's not dying while we're here to fight it. I think the strongest reason I have to townread LLD is actually her dayvig. Hers is the only claimed role that Dunn's role needed to counter with day-kill immunity. Without that, her dayvig is a red herring, basically.

As for Luke, or GIF, whichever of them it is has played an extremely strong game, and if they beat me I can't even be that mad compared to their growth. Luke's play this game, if I had to name a "fault" that stood out to me, was the stuff around the dumb fake guilty or whatever it was day one. Also, that he seems to be leaning into his once a game crazy theory thing he does, in a somewhat performative manner. GIF, on the other hand, is absolutely capable of sliding past us for a single day, so if he wanted to go long, a role where he can self exit for a day must have been like the mama of life bestowed by the gods. I've seen stranger things.

In cephgame, Luke's start was weak enough that Noraa hydra was all over him. In Bloodstained, his start was weak enough that even though I'd just seen him get scumread early in cephgame, I didn't townread him for a few calendar days. In this game, I didn't townread him early, either, but kept more of a wait and watch mode. I think the thing that bothers me most about his play (and it's not a huge bother, just a thing that is) is his entrance after the thread unlocked a few hours ago.

Re GiF, yeah that role would be an absolute gift to scum-GiF, but that doesn't ipso facto make him scum.

I am not assuming this is a sole Gamma plan or role. My personal possible theory is scum inventor. Does not an extra elimination with public scum guess redirect sound weak as a scum role to you? Given the tons of kills running around, if this is Gamma, there is more to it than just this.

The extra eliminations are accelerating this game in a terrifying way, so it doesn't feel all that weak to me. How does this work, though? Who's the inventor?

But said plainly.... Do you not see it? The trying to be subtle towards a Gamma wagon with planned slips set up, and then when it's called out Gamma immediately shifts gears towards acting even MORE blatantly to try and fake out? Dunn's post trying to call the bluff?

I see Gamma's Day 2 play as scum++++ equity. And if we didn't have the possibility of GiF parachuting back in then the 2nd elim this game day was MELO, and Luke's argument with Gamma about the impossibility of it being a town-town competing wagons situation basically forced Gamma's hand into voting his presumed partner rather than leaving his vote on us. How does that fit with your Luke-scum theory?

[Kate Bishop]

Your hot takes are hilariously shallow.

[Kate Bishop]

No.

[Kate Bishop]

What if we lim me

Why would that be a good thing?

[Kate Bishop]

I think that I am leaning towards no elim.

I don't think that the scum team would risk losing one of their own, on the chance that we no elim.

I think that Gamma is playing a bit suicidal, so I think he is protected.

Also, cabd. I don't have a night action, and my claim was confirmed by wheme, who from your pov is confirmed town, no?

We're not fully settled, but this is where we're leaning too. No elim.

[Kate Bishop]

Also, we know it's possible for multiple players to share a source material... so it explains why Gamma went last, to make so there were no other people from How not to summon.

This doesn't make sense

[Kate Bishop]

If we know multiple players can share the same source material, why would Gamma need to go last? Another player from How Not To Summon wouldn't be a problem.

[Kate Bishop]

So you mean claiming a character that's in the game.

Why was Dunn comfortable fake claiming?

[Kate Bishop]

Why does gamma not make sense with Cabd?

The first thing he did yesterday was discredit us when we tried to push Cabd.

[Kate Bishop]

Why does gamma not make sense with Cabd?

The first thing he did yesterday was discredit us when we tried to push Cabd.

You said Gamma was Marci, right?

you think Cabd did this weird gimmick shit with Marci, had Gamma replace in, fail to claim, what was very easy to do just "I am one of the two" and flow from there?

I don't know if they pull that gambit and then retract it on the replace in

Thinking on this.

The problem I have is that they've both done independently scummy stuff, and Gamma's been a lot more hamhanded about stuff than Cabd has (as I'd kinda expect. Cabd's one devilish clever human being when it comes to scum roles).

Can you talk about specifically why you're scumreading Luke?

[Kate Bishop]

Kate is lld town here

We think so.

Can you answer Luke's question?

[Kate Bishop]

Wheme did you get Luke's flavor with your cop?

[Kate Bishop]

Why does gamma not make sense with Cabd?

The first thing he did yesterday was discredit us when we tried to push Cabd.

You said Gamma was Marci, right?

you think Cabd did this weird gimmick shit with Marci, had Gamma replace in, fail to claim, what was very easy to do just "I am one of the two" and flow from there?

I don't know if they pull that gambit and then retract it on the replace in

Thinking on this.

The problem I have is that they've both done independently scummy stuff, and Gamma's been a lot more hamhanded about stuff than Cabd has (as I'd kinda expect. Cabd's one devilish clever human being when it comes to scum roles).

Can you talk about specifically why you're scumreading Luke?

I mean.

Kyouko town.
You town.
Me town.

Leaves 4 left.

If Cabd+Gamma is off the list

and Wheme can only be with Cabd (removes Wheme Luke, Wheme Gamma)

Luke/Cabd
Luke/Gamma
Cabd/Wheme

Nothing else should remain.

If Luke Gamma, kill Luke.
If Luke Cabd, kill Luke.
If Cabd/Wheme, kill Wheme.

Since people won't kill Wheme and there's good reasons to believe maybe not to

Luke is the strongest PoE.

Like if you think Wheme is town, Kate.

That leaves only Cabd/Gamma/Luke

In which case, you always kill Luke. Always.

We're doing a lot of research on your theories in this post. we may wrap up in a few hours.

Have you looked at Dunn's posts with associatives in mind?

[Kate Bishop]

Our focus has been mostly on potential Dunn associatives with wheme and Luke.

I feel like you've haven't really dug into our case for Gamma-scum.

If anything our rereading/isoing has made us more sure he's scum. We'll probably post the additional stuff we've found in a few hours. I wish you'd take a look at him, maybe without considering him as an "and Cabd" no-go, and see what you think.

[Kate Bishop]

@Cabd

You haven't really interacted with that list of reasons why we were scumreading you that we posted before Dunn was elimmed.

I'd really like it if you could go through that and show us why we're wrong/misinterpreting/whatever.

[Kate Bishop]

Gamma-

We are still fairly confident Gamma is scum, for his erratic play and various discrepancies we have already noted. In addition to the things we've already noted I also found an example of a faked read- in this case, Cabd. We already have pointed out the discrepancies in Gamma's behaviors to us versus Cabd, particularly when he made a turn of phrase specifically around Cabd's scumgame. You'd think someone truly paranoid of Cabd would leap to that first, when two players with tons of experience reading him started scumreading him.

But this is old ground. New ground!

Okay I think I can let Cabd out of the YTYD cage and into my actual TRs

This is the post during his catchup gamma changed to a strong townread on Cabd. I found this when I was digging into associatives. This is the post that prompted me to ask gamma about his strong townread in 3790. He dodges this until he finally answers this below-

Spoiler: Gamma Townread on Cabd

Speaking of Cabd, in 633 you reference your reaction to ManateeGal as being a reaction test, right? Were you expecting anyone in particular to react a certain way, or was it geared towards getting a reaction from anyone in particular?

yes and no!

Everything I do, I try to extract max value out of. I did try to shape my objections similar to what had hit the thread re: LLD's role but they were also genuinely my thoughts at the time, in that I struggle to see how this setup will be set up around what is effectively double day. Generally speaking, I try to ascribe to mods that they won't make a single player or role have so much agency that it denies others theirs completely, but that would be the case here if Manatee and LLD are both town.

okay this was like, THE post that made me townlock cabd. Something about the way the extracting value was discussed just rung out as town to me

It's definitely becoming a larger problem. I noticed is mostly with bell in the last game, but "You aren't allowed to scum read me lol and it's a pox on your house if you do" is completely against the idea of the game of mafia. People get to live inside their heads and know their role PMs but like, you can't expect everyone to have that luxury.

Being wrong is a thing that happens. By definition, a LOT in a game like this.

At the risk of making your hair stand on end for what is explicitly a blatant buddying attempt: Wanna just be in thread neighbors for a while? I for one am open to hearing about your take on fferysci. As the game that shall not be named showed, my reads aren't ALWAYS xenoblade tier perfect. Maybe I'm missing something major that you're seeing.

this one I think also helped

devil's bargain

In fairness, last time this happened was the Unwnd Large?

this wasn't really a conscious factor I think but I could definitely see me having registered on some level that this makes sense more from town pov than scum? Like it seems cabd interpreted what LLD was indicating as "I might be getting lured to my death again" vs. "I might be getting snowed by you for choosing to accept your olive branch"

these are all the posts I can identify within where I'm pretty sure I got that read thread-location wise

Now, take note of the very first post of this- they post he says lock towned Cabd. It is 648. However, if you pay attention to Gamma's catchup, the last post he responded to was 612 (responded to in post 3123), and the post he responds to next (sans replying to recent posts) was 618(replied to in post 3139). If you look between those two posts (612 to 618) there is not a single Cabd post in that timeframe. The post he references is on the bottom of the next page, which is weird continuing his catchup continues from 618 to 619 and 623 (in posts 3140 and 3141, respectively).

Wheme-
We still struggle to see Wheme as scum here, especially after viewing the events around the Shiro claim. If Wheme was scum with Cabd, I foresee him claiming Shiro way earlier than luke chasing him down for it. Cabd would tell him to in the PT. I don't need to say why he can't be scum with Luke other than "Because Cabd says so"

Luke-
One thing about Luke was he consistently pushing against Cabd's clear of marci on day one. There is one thing I noticed, and if a certain someone has an iota of effort to offer today I would like to put the ball in his court. However, I will direct him in the right direction- I am looking solely at RVS in past scumgames. (and if you look at the bastard one, VFP was his first buddy). Or you can not do this and I'll spell it out but I'd much rather you look >_>

[Kate Bishop]

Nevermind on the meta thing, I think it's a goose chase.

[Kate Bishop]

I still think that no elim is the best option here... But if no one else is on board for that, I guess I can go somewhere else.

I am at No Elim > Cabd/LLD > Kate >>>>>>>>Gamma > Me > kyouko / wheme

I really do think that Gamma is scum, but I also think that he is protected today.

I think that kyouko and wheme are town. Kyouko for the tracker stuff, wheme has grew on me last day phase, plus he does not look like a partner to Dunn, and he cannot be partnered with Gamma because of Cabd's claim. I put them below me in priority because they actually have roles to help the town. I don't.

I am also entertaining the idea that it is Gamma + GiF. And Gif is gone, and gamma is protected, so doing any kill is actually bad, and that is why the scum team have this ability. Which is part of the reason I am on the no elim train atm

I'd like for you to unpack that order past No Elim.

[Kate Bishop]

Why is LLD where she is?

[Kate Bishop]

the rest is a blur of "I can see it if I squint really hard, but no one seems to fit quite right"

I am still about here. I have put zero energy into this new-part-of-the-day phase, and really thought we would just no elim and move on.

Instead, LLD appears to want to lead a push on me, and no one is leading any wagons anywhere else, so that is fun.

We've indicated we're on team no-elim.

I'm concerned that scum have a little bit of maneuvering room if the votes are close. Especially if we're right about Gamma. If he's scum he has no reason to avoid a blatant last minute swing of his vote onto a townie because unless something changes drastically, he's very likely to be tomorrow's elim.

[Kate Bishop]

I asked her about associatives with Dunn and players she thinks could be scum, particularly you and wheme because neither of you are in our willing-to-elim pile today.

I would have liked her to do something more with that. As town, I respect her scumhunting ability.

And if she's town, I fear a bloodstained repeat, where because Rhia's scum-with-notsci pile flipped town, she stopped pushing notsci on the final game day.

[Kate Bishop]

Sorry, I've been thinking about it.

I think no elim bluff call is indeed the right way to go.

Then scum can kill at most one of the two investigatives.

If anyone has extra protections they've held back in claiming they go onto wheme who is basically a factional cop AND rolecop.

Pedit: who is the Annie here in your metaphor?

Gamma.

[Kate Bishop]

Sorry, I've been thinking about it.

I think no elim bluff call is indeed the right way to go.

Then scum can kill at most one of the two investigatives.

If anyone has extra protections they've held back in claiming they go onto wheme who is basically a factional cop AND rolecop.

Pedit: who is the Annie here in your metaphor?

Also, please, please, please engage with my list of reasons that we're scumreading you. :/

[Kate Bishop]

If you guys no Elim, you can handle the rest of the game with me on auto pilot.

It's a complete waste, we don't gain an extra kill from it, and guessing wrong doesn't do worse than guessing right, numbers wise.

In a numbers sense, no vote is actively terrible, with a downside of awful.

Are you at all concerned about what Luke's role could do to the next day phase?

[Kate Bishop]

Sorry, I've been thinking about it.

I think no elim bluff call is indeed the right way to go.

Then scum can kill at most one of the two investigatives.

If anyone has extra protections they've held back in claiming they go onto wheme who is basically a factional cop AND rolecop.

Pedit: who is the Annie here in your metaphor?

Also, please, please, please engage with my list of reasons that we're scumreading you. :/

Dead serious question. Why? You literally don't believe me that troubadour was a sheer coincidence so why the hell bother? At this point I just hope that you're scary enough of a UTR that scum doesn't bring you to endgame to mislim me for the win.

It's beyond frustrating but that's how it feels.

This feels so cephdragon. :/

Ignore our crumb-based reasons and look at the rest and tell me why we're wrong.

[Kate Bishop]

and it is guaranteed to be at least 1 week

I missed/forgot this somehow.

even so, I don't want to elim Luke.

[Kate Bishop]

Cabd I would like to talk about your flavor too because I went and did my isekai homework and I'm hoping you can connect a few dots for me

(also season 2 when)

[Kate Bishop]

Wheme talk to me about the informed part of your role, as detailed as possible (without getting modkilled)

Does it imply you can do things post humously?

[Kate Bishop]

I got where the idea for "informed" came from.

Is it not really specific about how it interacts with Shiro/Sora? I thouht of a certain game of othello.

[Kate Bishop]

I could reasonably envision anyone but you and GiF being his scum partner
Tbh I was initially thinking Kate and Kyouko were more likely but I feel like it’s more likely some who feels a bit warmer in an emotional sense is it, that being Wheme or Luke
And with the genuine searching I saw from Cabd earlier I think Luke is the most logical partner
VOTE: Lukewarm
I basically just talked myself into reaching the same sort of conclusion you did

[Kate Bishop]

Ignore our crumb-based reasons and look at the rest and tell me why we're wrong.

[Kate Bishop]

Disagree. I think hiding information about roles post massclaim when it might help sort one of the people in the PoE is more helpful to scum.

[Kate Bishop]

Cabd?

Both of them claiming something about some other game. Having seen the show, I'm trying to get to the bottom of EXACTLY what is expected to happen, (hint: This limits the maneuverability for scum-Cabd to work around). Why should we stay vague?

[Kate Bishop]

And just so we’re entirely clear, “informed” is in your role title?

[Kate Bishop]

I have a bunch of ideas but nothing concrete.

I’m split between killing Cabd and no elim. Fferys leaning heavily towards no elim.

[Kate Bishop]

I don't.

[Kate Bishop]

We still think the remaining scum team is Gamma and Cabd.

So, the entire purpose of this governor-like role is to get town to try and outguess scum, and it disincentivizes town from killing who they want to kill. I believe scum is attempting to use the role to guard both of their members. I understand the points brought up about Gamma's denial of being the character referenced in Cabd's day 1 claim, and my guess was the initial purpose of the claim was to get Marci through day one off of a playerlist she has proven to struggle against. I get what's being said, but I find Cabd's reaction to gamma claiming to not have been the target very sketchy and not organic. I feel like a more appropriate reaction to someone skating by day one to undo a flavor clear is to kneejerk scumread, and that made this post feel awkward.

Now, when I look back to Dunn's final post, it's incredibly clear scum intend(ed) to turn this day into a WIFOM-fest. There is one player alive who helped try and perpetuate the wifom- Cabd. This post has been bugging us, and for those of you unfamiliar with the yomi levels, the basic rundown is 0=Novice, picking whatever. 1= Counterpicker, countering town's first move (IE, killing gamma). 2= Perspective Shifter, countering the counters picked against you. 3= Fortune Teller, basically scum predicting everything perfectly. We believe Cabd IS cheeky enough to allude to exactly what his plan is, so we believe scum chose to counter our counter. This would mean scum chose to block Cabd.

If you look at both Gamma's and Cabd's play, both have done nothing really to dissuade an elimination on them. We tried to engage Cabd over our case multiple times, I tried to engage him over flavor to decipher some things, but he hasn't really bit on anything. He did get one spurt of energy at the start of the day which was nice, however we would have expected more of a dig-in. Whereas the only thing Gamma has done today is try to attract a wagon in as many ways as possible. We think he is intentionally overselling it as its own form of protection, as we naturally do not want to kill him for it.

We have reread and reviewed all of our townreads over the day, and we believe them all to be town.

If Gamma is blocked today, he should be killed first thing tomorrow. Because this entire thing is WIFOM and a pain in the ass to deal with. But we think scum chose to block Cabd.

VOTE: gamma

[Kate Bishop]

...That just activated the redirect didn't it?

such timing.

[Kate Bishop]

Hi GiF!

Was that your "from the beyond" vote on Manatee at the start of Day 2?

[Kate Bishop]

All ears!

[Kate Bishop]

What was the advantage? The no-discussion vote?

[Kate Bishop]

btw I accept your apology re wheme.

I don't think notsci is online atm, but I'll ping him!

[Kate Bishop]

notsci is driving to your neck of the woods right now. He'll be able to post in about 3.5 hours.

if there's anything you want to convey/discuss in the meanwhile, I can send hydra chat smoke signals.

[Kate Bishop]

@GiF,

notsci has only watched ngnl and season one of sword art online in the isekai subgenre.

[Kate Bishop]

well, I don't want to do anything votewise before everyone checks in, so y'all can fight over who gets elimmed all you like.

[Kate Bishop]

I have confirmed with the mod that I will still win even if I get limmed so today ends with my lim unless we are 100% sure that we can end the game today~

Win what? The challenge?

Also, notsci thinks the Knuckles choice could be a scum effort to counter a power weeb.

[Kate Bishop]

GiF:

It sounds like you don't know-know that the from the beyond vote was what scum won, it's your assumption.

Do you know what winning this challenge will win you?

[Kate Bishop]

It sounds like you don't know-know that the from the beyond vote was what scum won, it's your assumption.

I do know that scum won and got the vote from beyond. I've seen S_S lose. Winner of the challenges get to influence the game in some kind. That discussion-less vote with vote from beyond the prize. The way of influencing the game. We won't know exactly what way the game will be influenced. We do know that in some way the game will be influenced.

So, scum team anon-voted manatee, and one scum also voted manatee. And the other 2 scum were off wagon.

I dunno. It feels like they could easily have lost that vote. It was a tie that was apparently settled by vote pm timing.

[Kate Bishop]

P.S. I hope this is making fferysci feel badly!

I have to understand all this shit before I even begin to feel bad.

Notsci is going to stop for dinner shortly and actually catch up with the thread instead of me relaying shit.

[Kate Bishop]

Regardless the only options I accept here is me into Luke? Gif into Luke is impossible unless somehow we are sure the gif postdeath prize is so worth it as to be able to confirm me or give us two elims of the four living players.

Gif what were the reads of other dead town?

You should stop assuming our minds can't be swayed.

[Kate Bishop]

Regardless the only options I accept here is me into Luke? Gif into Luke is impossible unless somehow we are sure the gif postdeath prize is so worth it as to be able to confirm me or give us two elims of the four living players.

Gif what were the reads of other dead town?

You should stop assuming our minds can't be swayed.

I tried not assuming that yesterday. It gave me thread fatigue.

Has your when-wheme-is-dead ability been activated?

[Kate Bishop]

Cabd lemme see this okay?

For you to be scum you had to claim a mason partner that actually exists that didnt need to be claimed at all. And even if you assumes as scum that person would be marci, why waste that on marci? Why blow that and then find out oops its wheme? Your role as scum includes, if it exists

"You know Shiro is in the game. Claiming that to have wheme shot over me or Kate makes no sense for you as scum.

I don't think it's quite this cut and dry.

[Kate Bishop]

Cabd lemme see this okay?

For you to be scum you had to claim a mason partner that actually exists that didnt need to be claimed at all. And even if you assumes as scum that person would be marci, why waste that on marci? Why blow that and then find out oops its wheme? Your role as scum includes, if it exists

"You know Shiro is in the game. Claiming that to have wheme shot over me or Kate makes no sense for you as scum.

I don't think it's quite this cut and dry.

To expand, if the last scum lied about their role, then wheme rolecopping them would be fatal, however low the chance of being targeted was.

[Kate Bishop]

GiF is conftown to us because if he were scum, why would the scum team not have blocked a Gamma elim? GiF wasn't elimmable.

[Kate Bishop]

GiF is conftown to us because if he were scum, why would the scum team not have blocked a Gamma elim? GiF wasn't elimmable.

It could have been on no elim, which I think would be smartest if GiF is scum right?

It could have, but if so, assuming we'd go "Yomi level 1" about his extremely obvscum day 2 play was...a bad choice.

[Kate Bishop]

GiF is conftown to us because if he were scum, why would the scum team not have blocked a Gamma elim? GiF wasn't elimmable.

It could have been on no elim, which I think would be smartest if GiF is scum right?

Also, in this scenario hypothetical scum-luke would have no incentive to even come back and post during the final 24 hours of the game.

Which was sort of the way Cabd was playing. He made that post about his lastpass password, and then posted right after Luke hammered saying something about luke's vote meaning the Gamma elim was governed.

[Kate Bishop]

Worst case scenario assumption would be it's factional so let's stick with that assumption.

I'm pretty sure no elim was chosen to try and wifom an extra "kill" right? That town would be afraid to elim gamma as the obvious choice. And then scum gets the elim and a night kill to nuke two down at once. And then the bluff got called and we nuked gamma anyways.

"we"

[Kate Bishop]

If any of you actually think we're scum you need to lay off the kool-aid.

[Kate Bishop]

Also, our hood potentiality is now kinetic.

[Kate Bishop]

GiF, what were DGB's reads?

[Kate Bishop]

You should stop assuming our minds can't be swayed.

Feeling more and more like a safe bet!

It's less about your play (at least for me) now and it's become more about gamestate.

[Kate Bishop]

I mean it's gonna be you vs Luke in final four given GAMESTATE so yeah.

I don't think so. I think you're safe today because of the bet.

[Kate Bishop]

You're not seriously entertaining eliminating gif here for some shitty prize that we don't even know what it does here are you?

No. but I am considering not letting scum win either, if you're town.

notsci may not agree, though.

[Kate Bishop]

Like, I have two options in front of me. Be absolved of my sins, or bet the entire game on MY luke read being right.

And uh, I'd rather watch the shitshow if I'm wrong from the dead thread, given my track record so far.

And if you're town then scum win whatever the prize is.

[Kate Bishop]

Like, I have two options in front of me. Be absolved of my sins, or bet the entire game on MY luke read being right.

And uh, I'd rather watch the shitshow if I'm wrong from the dead thread, given my track record so far.

And if you're town then scum win whatever the prize is.

Assuming NOBODY from dead town also picked me to hedge bets, sure. But I certainly hope somebody in dead town was smart enough to do that.

Sigh.

GiF?

Do you know all the bets? Or just yours?

[Kate Bishop]

marci how could you
code red is bad and you should feel bad

Elim all liars

????????

notsci

likes

code red. :/

[Kate Bishop]

Do you know all the bets? Or just yours?

Just mine. The submission itself was via PM.
I am almost certain that none of the dead townies took this seriously because they stopped caring since end of Night 1 and none of them came to talk about the bets.

Even though we elimmed two scum yesterday. :/

ok whatever.

[Kate Bishop]

GiF, regarding the characters to choose from last night, were they all Isekai? Did they all meet the criteria for being selectable characters in this game?

[Kate Bishop]

Given that knuckles was one of the choices, no.

Ok. was wondering if FGO was an option to be in this game, why Cabd didn't pick Medea!

[Kate Bishop]

GiF, were Dunn and Gamma active in the dead thread N2? Do you know if they could still communicate with the living scum player?

[Kate Bishop]

Also, is there a particular isekai that the dead thread/challenges/etc are based upon?

[Kate Bishop]

hi friends

I’m exhausted

[Kate Bishop]

Yes yes collective we you thump that chest and howl while I sit over here having not voted you got me.

Sit over there and wait to naysay until after the deed was done*

[Kate Bishop]

Can one of the Luke pushers explain to me

a) who scum-luke chose to block with the governor
b) if it’s himself, why? He was pretty fairly townread going into the second part of the day
c) if it’s no-elim, why even post in the first place and hammer, instead of riding out the deadline to no elim?

[Kate Bishop]

Reading the flow and bus for towncred

If he lets it go he literally only had to survive a Cabd elim after gamma flip, unless my math is off?

Let’s it go>Wheme elimmed>SSBM Shot, Giffy back (6p)>Gamma dead>Kill LLD>Elim Cabd

[Kate Bishop]

Giffy was it clear if it was a 1 on 1 for SS or if scum could communicate?

Because that’s another hole in the “newb weeb picking”

[Kate Bishop]

Giffy was it clear if it was a 1 on 1 for SS or if scum could communicate?

Because that’s another hole in the “newb weeb picking”

?

[Kate Bishop]

The Night Game GiF has explained isn't as cut and dried (lol) as the Yomi level deduction we had to deal with for the 3rd Day 2 elim. But it kinda is a similar puzzle, where we have to weigh up the risks of doing what scum might have thought was the most likely elim today if town vs being convinced (and having consensus) that the most likely elim when the day started will lead to an immediate town win.

And I guess at least for some it could mean weighing up the possibility that GiF is lying. But, I don't believe that. I believe he's town and he's reporting N2's game accurately to the best of his ability.

I'm not really up for another deep dive into the wifom ocean, but it is what it is.

We'll have more to say after we kick things around.

[Kate Bishop]

continuing my thought train from last night

on the other hand, the likelihood that the prize could be something as day-shattering as Gamma's role was yesterday is pretty low.

an extra vote in a no-discussion elim was pretty powerful and could have been far more damaging than it was. the most damage was the no-discussion vote itself. Maybe that was a dreaming god action.

[Kate Bishop]

Because 4847 does seem to be the final official party line.

You seem to think we have phenomenal cosmic power over today's vote.

[Kate Bishop]

It's a value proposition. GiF alive in F4 vs a prize that we have no idea what it will do.

Why do you think it's a better idea to go after the prize than have GiF likely alive tomorrow?

[Kate Bishop]

So...

Why are you petitioning GiF to come change our minds?

[Kate Bishop]

Can one of the Luke pushers explain to me

a) who scum-luke chose to block with the governor
b) if it’s himself, why? He was pretty fairly townread going into the second part of the day
c) if it’s no-elim, why even post in the first place and hammer, instead of riding out the deadline to no elim?

[Kate Bishop]

So.. gif? Either we lim me today and you have to slay out in 4P without your bonus,

or you and Kate need to have a nice heart to heart.

Because 4847 does seem to be the final official party line.

You made these two posts while I was writing up 4850.

[Kate Bishop]

Can one of the Luke pushers explain to me

a) who scum-luke chose to block with the governor
b) if it’s himself, why? He was pretty fairly townread going into the second part of the day
c) if it’s no-elim, why even post in the first place and hammer, instead of riding out the deadline to no elim?

[Kate Bishop]

I think the no-discussion elim itself was DGB. Scum did t know, and placed the vote expecting to use it to elim Manatee during the day phase.

[Kate Bishop]

>>Cabd tells gif to give up on suicide and just go into F4 with my townflip
>>Kate be like "Wow scumcabd trying to wiggle out by convincing gif to suicide"

Why bring us up at all in that context today?

I'm willing to concede that I could have misinterpreted, but I don't feel like it was a stretch to read those two posts the way I did.

[Kate Bishop]

I have literally no idea, you keep repeating a point that means absolutely nothing to me because from where I sit it's either him, or it's you.

I could ask the same question of "Can one of the scum-cabd pushers explain to me why the third scum role given the two that flipped would have a player who gets to know the town role cop's flavor at game start" but it's a stupid triviality because clearly ONE of those "why" questions has a non-optimal answer.

I'm getting incredibly frustrated by you beating this drum like it's some panacea.

Oh absolutely we've considered an informed scum role.

obviously.

[Kate Bishop]

The bigger question is if anyone besides GiF wants GiF eliminated today.

Having just drawn a supersaint role, wanting to be dead rather than contribute to the scum wincon, and yet still being incredulous, bordering on outraged by one scumread that day:

I can squint and see your reaction to our reads of you coming from town.

If you're town, it makes sense that even so you're holding out hope that today changes our minds. If you're scum, you're counting on that happening.

[Kate Bishop]

I'm never going to understand why town-you wouldn't have been taken aback enough by there being two kills N1, one of which was the player Manatee targeted with her hurt tags, and WAS REFLECTED IN THE VOTE COUNT, to want to give her a chance to explain what happened from her perspective.

You're better at this game than I am. I can't fathom why you didn't vote no-elim or at least vote someone else.

I'm not super upset that manatee was elimmed that way since the alternative was probably Wheme being elimmed without a chance to claim his night action.

[Kate Bishop]

We're asking jjh some questions.

[Kate Bishop]

he did not!

[Kate Bishop]

Cool, then vote me and take your final four entry ticket on the chin and stop acting like you give a damn about re-evaluating.

I've tried to explain but reality isn't good enough to overcome the cabd-town-model template, clearly.

it's both models, actually.

And if you think we aren't open to new data that suggest we're wrong, or you think that we aren't considering your play from a town-you perspective too, then I'm kinda shocked. This isn't me in crackers mode. This is me intensely sad that if you're town it hasn't been a game where we find each other and then mow scum down.

[Kate Bishop]

This is a game from a long long long time ago, where town-Cabd hydra went into self-sacrifice mode. One difference from here was that the game was pretty close to locked in for town by just elimming the players who weren't confirmed town one way or another.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 7#p5326297

From a town-Cabd perspective this isn't a locked in town win today, but there are enough parallels for it to be somewhat informative.

I've thought back on the Chef mafia game several times throughout the course of this game.

I hate this. I locked onto him as scum the moment I saw the result of the no-discussion vote, and I can't get over the initial impression, and also can't get over knowing there were 2 scum-votes on manatee...and Cabd.

Before GiF's return, I assumed that scum had no more warning than town did (NONE) and with their PT locked, had no way to discuss how to vote or avoid the possibility of all being on the same wagon.

But they did have the knowledge of the extra vote and where they put it when they private threads were locked, and they had the opporunity to discuss how they should vote, and who should be off-wagon while deciding where the extra vote should be placed.

[Kate Bishop]

Cabd you also gotta understand.
There is going to be a challenge during Night 3 too.
If scum win that we potentially face two scum advantages.

ugh.

--------------------
Cabd:

fuck off pressuring us to vote before we're ready.

[Kate Bishop]

Right now it's essentially the gif-cabd-kate three player band here so I'll step back, but nobody else is really... doing anything.

Why is it just these 3?

[Kate Bishop]

I was wondering why SSBM was left off is all.

Waiting at a drive thru before I continue my trek and wanted to ask.

[Kate Bishop]

Oh yeah my cabd read is locktown so I am going to skip reviewing that read.

You’re going to need to lay this out for both of us js

[Kate Bishop]

...Posting levels of today?

I don't think posting levels are an accurate gauge of involvement/investment.

[Kate Bishop]

...Posting levels of today?

I don't think posting levels are an accurate gauge of involvement/investment.

You're the one that divorsed my quote from the greater context of the reply to LLD it was in.

Where I stated that I recognized you-me-gif were posting a lot and choking the other three names out.

I was not the one, but ok.

[Kate Bishop]

Cabd, thoughts about 4947?

[Kate Bishop]

Cabd, thoughts about 4947?

GiF, I wanna do Luke and then discuss between Kate and Cabd tomorrow honestly. I think Luke ends the game.

[Kate Bishop]

we've done some rereading, particularly Gamma's posts, including his replace-in catch-up.

it's going to take a bit to wordz stuff, but it's incoming.

[Kate Bishop]

also a deeper dive of Luke's posts.

[Kate Bishop]

y'all are really making me want to get this right today.

[Kate Bishop]

recalibration is a thing.

[Kate Bishop]

we've done some rereading, particularly Gamma's posts, including his replace-in catch-up.

it's going to take a bit to wordz stuff, but it's incoming.

I've been working on this for hours and I'm coming up for air.

As well as his replace-in catchup, I took a close look at his interactions with Dunn (they were almost all initiated by Dunn), and interactions of note with other players, and thought about how I'd expect him to interact with his other scumbuddy. It's taken me through some strange looking glasses. Mostly I feel like he played Yomi level 1, except for the governor thing. I think the final scum is pissed off about his play. Or should be.

Anyway, I want to sleep on it and let notsci have a look tomorrow and then we'll post it.

And then I'll focus on my other assignment-to-self.

Cabd, I'd really like for you to shake off your mope and and work with us, at least on our homework assignments.