FFVII Mafia: Over

[wolframnhart]

If Tony is lynched and flips scum[...]

I won't flip scum, and I will never be lynched

What makes you so sure of that? And please answer my question in post 796

[armlx]

God, I was mildly suspect of the slight shift away from Liam, but Tony's last post is pretty unreasonable.

I give him one post to explain fully before I vote.

[Empking]

I was going to vote TM thanks to that comment but its possible he was refering to his sig.

Were you?

[iamausername]

I think we need a mass prod. And for everybody to explain why the hell they are not voting TonyMontana, because I don't understand at all.

That was because he seemed to "know" Armlx was town, right?

That's the major point against him, yes. But let's note also that in that same quote, he suggested that a proven insane cop would be our best lynch. And his hugely inconsistent stance on ABR today.

Can the Tony Montana voters please explain how a scumbag could possibly know for certain right now that another player is a townie?

Oh, I don't think Tony actually knows armlx's alignment for certain, I think he was making the subconscious assumption that armlx was town without really thinking about it, due to armlx not being a part of his scum group. Because if he had really thought about it, I severely doubt he would have made the comment at all.

[armlx]

That and his ABR push today on 0 logic.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I think we're on to something with CallMeLiam.

[TonyMontana]

If Tony is lynched and flips scum[...]

I won't flip scum, and I will never be lynched

What makes you so sure of that? And please answer my question in post 796

Note to self: Stay away from computer when coming home from a heavy night of drinking.
I was (i guess) just poking fun at the fact that i have yet to be lynched in a game. The part about not flipping scum is totally true tho.

As for my comments about xtoxm possibly being insane, it was poorly expressed by me. I believed ABR when he counterclaimed as daycop, so I was saying that if xtoxm got a omgus guilty on the very start of the day, I saw the scenario of a sane and insane daycop much more likely than xtoxm getting lucky.

[CallMeLiam]

Why did I want to test xtoxm before ABR? Well testing Xtoxm's claim didn't involve lynching a claimed cop. If Armlx was indeed town then we could have piled on X afterwards but as I said at the time I wanted no part in lynching a claimed cop.

1. Why didn't you want to Lynch a Claimed cop? Especially one that has performed several scummy actions before his sudden claim? It is very beneficial for Scum to claim cop, after all, and it's not like the Cop would come forward just to object to one person's claims like that.

Why did I want a claim from ABR? Because his play on day one was highly anti-town and to be honest I wouldn't be too upset lynching a vanilla townie if they're going to play in such a harmful way.

2. What would you have said/done if he had Claimed another power role?

Why was I wanting to vote Zac rather than one of the three people in the cop clusterfuck? Because if a genuine guilty had been recorded, then it was likely the scum would have gone after the cop and if not then we'd have someone caught in a lie.

3. What exactly is wrong with catching people in a lie?

[/quote]

1. I didn't want top lynch a claimed cop because I don't like the idea of lynching cops on day one. 'Scummy' actions on day one tend to be less of a tell (for me) than later in the game so I was happy to let the claim keep him alive for a day and either test him or lynch someone else.

2. I wouldn't have pushed for his lynch, and I'd have actively pushed against his wagon

3. Nothing. Catching someone in a lie would be good and helpful for the town.

[Cephrir]

Your reasoning isn't very good. It's basically LAL.

How is LAL not good reasoning? You realize that it's the meta stratagy that has been used by most of the good players on this site for most of the time this site's been in existance, right?

I'm not quite a LAL guy, but I'm a big fan of "lynch almost all liars". If you get caught in a lie, I tend to think you've got to have a REALLY good reason why we should think you're protown in order to live, and Albert really dosn't; the best I could say is that I could imagine him doing it as either town or as scum, and I personally don't think that's enough reason to let someone live after they get caught lying about a counterclaim and about a cop investigation.

I am fully aware that LAL is often a good policy but I think it's been demonstrated that this is at worst a null-tell for ABR. Policy lynches on people who are likely not scum are stupid, especially since we have multiple better directions to go in today. Plus, on some demented level is reasoning almost makes a little sense.

Can the Tony Montana voters please explain how a scumbag could possibly know for certain right now that another player is a townie?

IIAUN has answered this for me I think. I think he subconsciously assumed people not in his scumgroup were town. There's also a possibility that armlx is his Godfather, but obviously I'm not going to leap to that conclusion. It would certainly be the slip of the century if that was the case though. There may be two mafias here, but the statement was made before we saw four kills overnight (effectively). As I have already pointed out, a lot of his other posts bother me as well.

My vote might be swayed by something that - further down the line - catches my eye.

Way to leave the door open to hop wagons.

I was going to vote TM thanks to that comment but its possible he was refering to his sig.

Were you?

Way to give him an excuse.

I saw the scenario of a sane and insane daycop much more likely than xtoxm getting lucky.

You thought it more likely there were two daycops than that Xtoxm was lying/scum?

[armlx]

I honestly could go for CML or TM at this point. TM's last post was a fair explanation of the "slip", but his other behavior was still disconcerting, and CML last post is just more of the same stuff I said was scummy earlier.

[iamausername]

Tony, if ABR is scum, what do you think is the best explanation for no Cid counterclaim?

[Natirasha]

I am tolerable to a TonyMontana lynch, but I would very much prefer a CML lynch, kk.

[Jebus]

I'm back.

In particular I'm looking at DynamoXI, Natirasha, Grimmy, MBPikamon, TonyMontana. (eg, I'm re-reading.)

[Jebus]

I also noticed that really weird quote from Tony that I see IIAUN has pointed out for me. I think it may in fact be a slip, 'cause really... what the heck could he be thinking to say something that ridiculous as town? And he doesn't really seem to have offered much of anything in the way of explanation...

...I feel much more comfortable voting Tony right now. I would have found him suspicious even without that apparent slip, I think.

QFT

Pretty much, I 100% agree with above.

If xtoxm really is a cop, and he really got a guilty armlx, he's insane at best. In which case, he would still be our best lynch.

There's no way to know anyone else's role in a game unless you're on the same team or a cop (this excludes traitors and insane cops). Which makes me think
And

Vote: Tony

Now now, ABR lied to save armlx, you can't fault him for having gratitude. -.-

Which makes me FoS: armlx

[Jebus]

As for the others, I didn't see much of DynamoXI or MBPikamon. What I did see of Grimmy didn't seem scummy at all, and Natirisha hasn't really sparked my interest either.

Triple post ftw.

[TonyMontana]

You thought it more likely there were two daycops than that Xtoxm was lying/scum?

No, that's why I voted xtoxm, because i didn't believe him.

[CarnCarn]

Hi all, I should be replacing Westbrook; I have his role PM from the mod. Will post game-related thoughts when mod confirms I can.
I did a full read thru of the game about a week back, so I'm going to go back and review the more recent stuff.

[TonyMontana]

If xtoxm really is a cop, and he really got a guilty armlx, he's insane at best. In which case, he would still be our best lynch.

There's no way to know anyone else's role in a game unless you're on the same team or a cop (this excludes traitors and insane cops). Which makes me think
And

Vote: Tony

Which makes me think you didnt read my reply.

Now now, ABR lied to save armlx, you can't fault him for having gratitude. -.-

Which makes me FoS: armlx[/quote]
Because......

[Grimmy]

Quick check in
Wont be able to get to my games until later this week. The new kid is here so this will give him a chance to catch up anyway.

Welcome carncarn

grimmy

[Cephrir]

You thought it more likely there were two daycops than that Xtoxm was lying/scum?

No, that's why I voted xtoxm, because i didn't believe him.

Um... then why did you say this:

saw the scenario of a sane and insane daycop much more likely than xtoxm getting lucky.

...That doesn't sound to me like you didn't believe Xtoxm.

[TonyMontana]

saw the scenario of a sane and insane daycop much more likely than xtoxm getting lucky.

...That doesn't sound to me like you didn't believe Xtoxm.

Because I thought it was more likely that he was lying than both those scenarios?
It's not that hard to understand...

[armlx]

Which makes me FoS: armlx

What's the connection?

[Cephrir]

saw the scenario of a sane and insane daycop much more likely than xtoxm getting lucky.

...That doesn't sound to me like you didn't believe Xtoxm.

Because I thought it was more likely that he was lying than both those scenarios?
It's not that hard to understand...

Ah, I guess that sort of makes sense.

[Cavebear with a toothache]

Checking in.
Tony does make some sense in his defense, but it really does look like a slip and there's not much in his early posts that supports his current version of his thoughts back then. I feel pretty comfortable about voting him.

Unvote, vote: TonyMontana

[CarnCarn]

Mod Note: Replacing Westbrook_Owns_You

OK, cleared to post by the mod. I'll post about the three players with the most votes against so far (CML, ABR, and TM, I believe). If anyone has any questions for Westbrook, please post them and I'll try to answer them. I'll

Unvote

, in case Westbrook was voting anyone.

First, CML. I'm not sure what to make of him. What's he got against him is wanting to avoid the ABR/xtoxm issue and lynch Zac. I don't really understand why that's a scummy move, especially since Zac put xtoxom on L-1 with NO REASON!

FoS:Zac

. And that person turned up town... even if he was a pretty bad player. If that's a good enough reason to lynch a townie, then might as well lynch ABR on the same grounds.

Speaking of ABR:

Tony, if ABR is scum, what do you think is the best explanation for no Cid counterclaim?

I would think that, if he is lying about being Cid, and there is a real Cid out there, then they're probably not countering because their role is too powerful to reveal to scum.
What I don't like about ABR is that his play was just terrible, and he keeps trying to argue that it was good. It got a townie lynched. armlx has said that this is putting too much blame on ABR for the lynch, but ABR himself has said that he thought he needed to do it to "push xtoxm over the cliff" (since people apparently were too hesitant to lynch a claimed day-cop).
ABR wanted to lynch someone (who ended up being town) for fake-claiming daycop; when the same argument is made against him, he thinks he's somehow different because he apparently does this all the time.
One of the things I found really puzzling about ABR was what he wrote in 516 (all the way back on page 21, and never really brought up by anyone, AFAIK):

Counter-claimed ? I haven't even claimed yet.

What does he mean? Hasn't he claimed Cid?
I think his whole argument of "I would never do that as scum" really borders on WIFOM, even if he's got a history of it in the past. Like in the stock market, past performance is never a guarantee of future returns.

So finally TM.
I think the main thing people are jumping on TM for is this:

If xtoxm really is a cop, and he really got a guilty armlx, he's insane at best. In which case, he would still be our best lynch.

I don't know what to think of it. MBL asks a good question about how he would know that anyone is definately town. One possibility is that he was a Mason with xtoxm, but that doesn't seem to make sense here. I don't think it was a scum slip; if it was, it would have been really stupid. Why would anyone make a definate claim about someone's alignment on Day 1 unless they knew for sure, and they themselves weren't scum to begin with? I'll give TM the benefit of the doubt that it wasn't just a stupid slip up, although I'd appreciate if you could explain this quote again or link to the reply you mention in 817.

Other thoughts: armlx seems kinda scummy for basically acting as ABR's defense attorney, although he might just be putting too much stock into the historical ABR Gambit argument. I'm pretty much neutral about everyone else, for now. No firm opinions about alignment, though I have an idea about who's been helpful so far to town.

Overall, I think the arguments against CML and TM being scum are pretty weak, and ABR should really do the town a favor and at least apologize. lol
If I had to vote for someone it would be ABR for being a complete hypocrite.