[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Aneninen]

Tailor could self-target, in my opinion.
What you're saying about the 1-shots is right, however, your new version is not good either. There may be Setups with 4 Town-PRs and a massclaim on Day1 might break the game. Claiming a 1-Shot Bodyguard instantly is not all that bad anyway: the town would know more about the Setup and the Bodyguard could die easily even without the claim.

[wgeurts]

True that.
Maybe it's worth scrapping the Bodyguard entirely?
P - 1-Shot Jailkeeper
PP - 2-Shot Jailkeeper
PPP - Jailkeeper
PPPP - Jailkeeper + 1-Shot Jailkeeper
PPPPP - Jailkeeper + 2-Shot Jailkeeper


Alternatively this could be done, is a little less elegant:
P - 2-Shot Bodyguard
PP - Bodyguard
PPP - Jailkeeper
PPPP - Jailkeeper + 2-Shot Bodyguard
PPPPP - Jailkeeper + Bodyguard

[Aneninen]

Thinking...................

[BBmolla]

Self targeting is non standard btw.

[BBmolla]

AKA, it's standard to disallow self targeting.

[Aneninen]

Bodyguard is a fun PR to play with, in my opinion.

Maybe a mixed version?

P - 1-Shot Jailkeeper
PP - Bodyguard
PPP - Bodyguard + 1-Shot Jailkeeper
PPPP - Jailkeeper + 1-Shot Bodyguard
PPPPP - Jailkeeper + Bodyguard

In this case only the 1-Shot Bodyguard knows the Setup distribution in PPPP.

Also, I've just noticed that the Cop and the Tracker follows the same scheme – although it's not a real disadvantage for having a Tracker, because of the Framer/Tailor pair.
Are we sure that a Tailor is stronger in this Setup than a Framer? If not, the M Tailor and the MM Framer might be swapped for more WIFOM.

[Bicephalous Bob]

Why are tracker and cop in separate tiers? The former is just a weaker version of the latter.

[Aneninen]

Framer/Tailor.

[Bicephalous Bob]

Yeah, never mind that. Some real gripes:

1. All Mafia 2-shot RB + Goon setups are incredibly scum-sided. At worst, it's 2v7 mountainous.
2. Framer and Tailor are a shitty counterbalance because it only counters the cop. They're negative utility in tracker-only setups.
3. Bodyguard isn't a real PR.

[wgeurts]

@Anen
Tailor is stronger than framer as he can choose to make his partner look innocent for a night.
I also need to mention that the first three letters have to have only 1 PR. Otherwise 4 PR setups can happen.

@Bob
1. The point is, nobody knows that this setup is active. Scum don't know wether there's a PR at all. It's basically a 2v7 mountainous which isn't unbalanced at all. The chances of 5 M's being rolled are 1/32. Unlikely, the chance for 4 M's is 1/16. Also low. It's hard to be scum-sided when most of the scum's actions do nothing. Especially when they have to decide between a roleblock or a frame as killing costs an action. You can get this same situation in C9++. 3 Goons vs 10 VT's I believe.
2. It's only meant to counter the cop, trackers already have the drawback of not knowing wether they targeted town PR or scum.
3. And doctors are too powerful. They can save an investigative, they're fine.

[wgeurts]

Also town PR has the same bonus of a chocolate townie, they can claim semi-confirming themselves in a mass-claim.

[wgeurts]

Truth and Justice:

Randomly pick five numbers between 1-100 and then convert each number into a letter:

• 1-50: M
  
• 51-68: C
  
• 69-86: T
  
• 87-100: P

Then convert add roles corresponding to the number of letters:

Mafia:

0 M's - Mafia Tailor + Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker
M - Mafia Tailor + Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker
MM - Mafia Framer + Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker
MMM - Mafia Framer + Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker
MMMM - Mafia Goon + Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker
MMMMM - Mafia Goon + Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker

Cops:

C - 1-Shot Cop
CC - 2-Shot Cop
CCC - Cop
CCCC - Cop + 1-Shot Cop
CCCCC - Cop + 2-Shot Cop

Trackers:

T - 1-Shot Tracker
TT - 2-Shot Tracker
TTT - Tracker
TTTT - Tracker + 1-Shot Tracker
TTTTT - Tracker + 2-Shot Tracker

Protectors:

P - 1-Shot Jailkeeper
PP - Bodyguard
PPP - Bodyguard + 1-Shot Jailkeeper
PPPP - Jailkeeper + 1-Shot Jailkeeper
PPPPP - Jailkeeper + Bodyguard

Then add Vanilla Townies until you have 9 players. Mafia faction kill is taken instead of own ability unless there's only one mafia remaining, then they make take both.

Example setups:
21-14-65-76-92 (MMCTP)

Mafia Framer
Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker

1-Shot Cop
1-Shot Tracker
1-Shot Jailkeeper
4 Vanilla Townies

66-100-95-31-10 (CPPMM)

Mafia Framer
Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker

1-Shot Cop
Bodyguard
5 Vanilla Townies

75-93-15-5-42 (TPMMM)

Mafia Framer
Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker

1-Shot Tracker
1-Shot Jailkeeper

51-57-56-69-73 (CCCTT)

Mafia Tailor
Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker

Cop
2-Shot Tracker
5 Vanilla Townies

19-57-79-86-95 (MCTTP)

Mafia Tailor
Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker

1-Shot Cop
2-Shot Tracker
1-Shot Jailkeeper
4 Vanilla Townies

[wgeurts]

Wait maybe changing the mafia to this would balance town a little more:
0 M's - Mafia Tailor + Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker
M - Mafia Tailor + Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker + Town Innocent Child
MM - Mafia Framer + Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker
MMM - Mafia Framer + Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker + Town Innocent Child
MMMM - Mafia Goon + Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker
MMMMM - Mafia Goon + Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker + Town Innocent Child

[wgeurts]

Of cause Innocent Child chooses when to reveal.

21-14-65-76-92 (MMCTP)

Mafia Framer
Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker

1-Shot Cop
1-Shot Tracker
1-Shot Jailkeeper
4 Vanilla Townies

66-100-95-31-10 (CPPMM)

Mafia Framer
Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker

1-Shot Cop
Bodyguard
5 Vanilla Townies

75-93-15-5-42 (TPMMM)

Mafia Framer
Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker

1-Shot Tracker
1-Shot Jailkeeper
Innocent Child
4 Vanilla Townies

51-57-56-69-73 (CCCTT)

Mafia Tailor
Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker

Cop
2-Shot Tracker
5 Vanilla Townies

19-57-79-86-95 (MCTTP)

Mafia Tailor
Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker

1-Shot Cop
2-Shot Tracker
1-Shot Jailkeeper
Innocent Child
3 Vanilla Townies

[Bicephalous Bob]

1. The point is, nobody knows that this setup is active.

This makes the setup more scum-sided.

Scum don't know wether there's a PR at all. It's basically a 2v7 mountainous which isn't unbalanced at all.

It is.

The chances of 5 M's being rolled are 1/32. Unlikely, the chance for 4 M's is 1/16. Also low. It's hard to be scum-sided when most of the scum's actions do nothing.

...because there aren't any PRs to mess with.

Especially when they have to decide between a roleblock or a frame as killing costs an action. You can get this same situation in C9++. 3 Goons vs 10 VT's I believe.

Doesn't C9++ fix that with a serial killer?

2. It's only meant to counter the cop, trackers already have the drawback of not knowing wether they targeted town PR or scum.

My point is that when town get an extra tracker scum get a negative utility in return. That's just not fair.

3. And doctors are too powerful. They can save an investigative, they're fine.

There doesn't have to be an investigative. It's certainly not a substitute for a cop.

[wgeurts]

Bob, framer/tailor are far from negative utility. They don't even have to use them as the framer can just be used for kills. Rather some ability than none.
As for there being no PR's to mess with, yeah then they've got a roleblocker and a goon in those situations. Roleblocker's just there for that 1 possible PR. It's a mountainous in effect with a very slight deviation, however the chances of it happening are low.
1 SK, 3 Mafia Goons and 9 VT's isn't fun either. And that can happen in C9++. It's in general a flaw fot most semi-open setups. A flaw that will rarely occur.

And if you saw I increased the likelyhoods of JK's appearing, they certainly are a good replacement for the cop. I've also started thinking of adding and IC, if you look above.

[Hostile Intent]

Aren't the CCCCC and TTTTT setups a little town-sided? Like, maybe give them a Godfather in CCCCC and a ninja in TTTTT?

[wgeurts]

Hadn't thought of ninja. How about I make the Tailor a JOAT?
2-Shot Ninja and 2-Shot Tailor?

[wgeurts]

Then the framer is a 2-Shot Framer 1-Shot Ninja

[Hostile Intent]

Oh I didn't see the 0M's modifier somehow. Derp.

Even with the Framer, a setup with two cops or two trackers can end up clearing a lot of townies fairly quickly. Say a cop is L-1 D2 and claims with his innocent, that other cop now knows 4 players are without a doubt town. He could claim and it'd be pretty easily a town victory.

[wgeurts]

Hence there's a roleblocker, honestly the same goes for C9++. There are situations where you get Godfather, Roleblocker, Goon, 3 Cops and 7 Vanilla Townies. It's unlikely however that those are ever rolled though.

[Hostile Intent]

Fair point. Had you considered combining Trackers/Cops for an Investigators section?

and maybe adding a mixed third party section with SK and FBI Agent variants

(just read the post above my first, oops)

[wgeurts]

Truth and Justice:

Randomly pick five numbers between 1-100 and then convert each number into a letter:

• 1-50: M
  
• 51-68: C
  
• 69-86: T
  
• 87-100: P

Then convert add roles corresponding to the number of letters:

Mafia:

0 M's - Mafia JOAT (2-Shot Tailor & 2-Shot Ninja) + Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker
M - Mafia JOAT (2-Shot Tailor & 2-Shot Ninja) + Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker
MM - Mafia JOAT (2-Shot Framer & 1-Shot Ninja) + Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker
MMM - Mafia JOAT (2-Shot Framer & 1-Shot Ninja) + Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker
MMMM - Mafia Goon + Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker
MMMMM - Mafia Goon + Mafia 2-Shot Roleblocker

Cops:

C - 1-Shot Cop
CC - 2-Shot Cop
CCC - Cop
CCCC - Cop + 1-Shot Cop
CCCCC - Cop + 2-Shot Cop

Trackers:

T - 1-Shot Tracker
TT - 2-Shot Tracker
TTT - Tracker
TTTT - Tracker + 1-Shot Tracker
TTTTT - Tracker + 2-Shot Tracker

Protectors:

P - 1-Shot Jailkeeper
PP - Bodyguard
PPP - Bodyguard + 1-Shot Jailkeeper
PPPP - Jailkeeper + 1-Shot Jailkeeper
PPPPP - Jailkeeper + Bodyguard

Then add Vanilla Townies until you have 9 players. Mafia faction kill is taken instead of own ability unless there's only one mafia remaining, then they make take both.

This nerfs tracker a little.
What would your verdict on this be?
Math tells me there's a 0.02% chance of TTTTT or CCCCC being rolled.

[BBmolla]

1 shot jail keeper is better than a bodyguard.

[wgeurts]

Really?
I'll swap P and PP around of that's truly the case.