In post 8091, Nero Cain wrote:I mean we were both scum reading Skitter but also scum reading each other. I think if we had gotten Skitter then we might have stopped scum reading each other. Between the 2 of us we were scumreading the whole scum team.
Yeah there were maybe 4 townies that had really accurate reads and were really forceful about pushing them through. If they had townread each other there would have been a lot of early scum flips instead of town flips.
It seemed like bad stuff kept happening to Town and it always benefitted me or my team. It was important that there were more experienced players on the scum team like Datisi and skitter at the start and then Titus when they replaced in; I think they played a big part in creating opportunities for me to hide or get town read.
In post 8076, fireisredsir wrote:really rough that the two investigatives both hit scum n1 but both were false innos
Credit to that goes to Datisi 100%. Datisi said skitter should perform the N1 kill because they're more likely to be investigated by a psychologist. Datisi sowed that bad luck unto Town with a conscious decision based on foresight.
Bruce: Terry. I've been thinking about something you once told me... and you were wrong. It's not Batman that makes you worthwhile; it's the other way around. Never tell yourself anything different.
Terry: ...Thanks.
In post 8082, VP Baltar wrote:gg scumbutts. Town's biggest mistake this game was stubbornness, and yall deserved the win given the setup.
Thanks for modding Mizzy and worst!
Tbh it’s my lack of
I should have just kept insisting on Galron but I was trying to be cooperative
Then not being allowed to cooperate made me insist on Titus
Then I should have used that clout to demand Galron.
I messed up by trying to be good town
I think a big issue was we just didn’t consider that the other of us could be right as well because you kept hard pushing me as being wrong when I was pushing scumFrog correctly the last 4 day phases.
This game had far too many chefs in the kitchen. Strong voices are fine
if they agree or know how to work with each other
. We had VP, Nero, Math, Fire and April all essentially working different angles. A true cooperator never existed which is what let me get townread for so long. If I was actually effective at being a cooperator, we might have saved VP for another day or two.
In post 8072, fireisredsir wrote:wp all! tough call at the end there, i don't think it was likely we were going to lim dwlee/galron. i would have gone with scorp as well (after frog, at least)
Yeah short of me demanding Galron/Dwlee which I probably want April/Ari’s slots head
It kinda made me sad like I don’t see how I could have been more clear about Galron/Skitter scum
This is how I felt about Frogster.
I don't think the mistake was how forceful you two were being but the fact you both seemed to exclude the possibility you were both right, thus leading you to know flips under "compromise". A true town cohesionist (lack of better word) tries to push forth or revise this possibility.
In post 8088, DeasVail wrote:Also just wanted to say that I enjoyed playing with a lot of people in this game, with particular shoutouts to Yeet, tenebrousluminary, Malcolm, cape90 and fireisred who I’d never played with before.
I’m sorry for the part I played in making it a more confusing game for town, but it was still fun because of all of you! Take care <3
+1 would play with anyone in this game again.
I said it in the dead thread but for a game were a number of people felt like the atmosphere was getting quite toxic, you all were a pleasure to moderate for. I've seen way worse get called normal or baseline on this site
Correct. While this game had frustrating people, it wasn't toxic.
In post 8105, April Ludgate wrote:I think it was slightly scum sided, but in a way that was pretty even.
Social influence > mechanical, bar hard inno possibilities.
I think it was decently balanced
I strongly disagree. Without false innos, scum was screwed. Every night, scum killed a clear by role. Day play hardly mattered as we get boxed in by this setup 9/10. Despite 5 scum, this should never get approved.
In post 8095, fireisredsir wrote:i might just be very stingy with my claims, but i def would not have
no idea what is correct tho, and i understand doing it
I think it was a judgment call. The fact that he had 2 shots left makes me think he shouldn't have done it though I deff understand why he thought that it was a likely inno on Skitter/Galron and was maybe worried that he'd look bad @ claim time if he didn't speak up.
also a little confused why I was shot. I think scum could have still got me with a bunch of bad town pushing me and my claim might sound suspicious considering that I wasn't on HEM n1.
Mechanical reasons. We had too many conftown to shoot and couldn't afford a save.
Overall, town had the forceful bit down. It was the social dynamics that got screwed. The five or six town leaders spoke so much that it bungled reading players like Scorpious tene and StD. Their opinions were largely not discussed which made them hard to read in elo.
Math could have harped on for Galron scum. He did mention it and it was right but it was meta so he discarded it. I deliberately gave Galron the mechanical elimination on StD that town discarded because Galron wasn't core vocal and active town.
The way I expected that to go was Galron leading the charge on mechanically confirmed scum, but literally no one seized it.
Galron is not the type of player to do mechanics. If Math had asked his meta players to check his work, then they might get a twofer but Math was accidentally demoralized and couldn't get that out of players like Math and fire.
Sometimes it's about Go, sometimes it's pictures of chessboards.
When it's pictures of chessboards, I have no idea what the accompanying words are supposed to mean.
I quite liked the flavor nevertheless. I actually learned a lot about how to play Go just from reading it.
I have no idea how to play Go, so my flavour was pictures of chessboards and rules from various games as a kind of joke, pretending I was trying to keep up with Mizzy's flavour while not understanding it.
Originally it was going to be a little joke for the few VCs i needed to do. But the game kept getting really busy during Mizzy's night, so it ended up becoming a full-blown bit.
Boon is a hard sort but I think they’re scum and want opinions
This clearly shows the effort Math put in. Definitely not going to say he didn't try. His efforts boxed me out some, despite him misreading my attempts to cooperate.
He was clearly using the thread as more of a notes PT and scatterbrained, which made it easier to defend.
After this point, the Galron thought was forgotten.
If Math, a) flips StD here or b) asks meta people to see this maybe, but not certainly, a different result occurs.
I still feel this game is great strides in town Math cooperating somewhat.
I think this setup is pretty mechanically balanced which is cool because it's a 5 player scum team which I've never seen before. I'm going to elaborate on this below:
The roles given to either alignment made sense together and were a good balance of being guessable and unexpected.
I think I would assess this setup as being fun to play from the POV I had as the Mafia Goon, maybe 7/10 or 8/10, I would definitely play it again. I think the flavor and modding were classy and added positively to the experience of playing the game.
I think if you ran this setup 100 times you would end up with town winning 55 games and scum winning 45 games.
I think not all 100 games will be equal though and that's important based on your design goals for running this set up:
I think around the 85th percentile of overall Town strength the games turn into a massacre. So in addition to the expected RNG swing a dozen or so of those 55 town wins would be really no fun to play at all for the scum, because the dayplay is too strong combined with the amount of mechanical power town has access to. I think this Town had some strong Town players and the average Townies weren't bad either, I think this Town was maybe in the 60th or 70th percentile of strength. So this setup was well balanced for the players who played it and demanded good play from both alignments, it was interesting and wasn't too predictable or too unpredictable, and I expect it to be well balanced for most other experienced groups that play it. If that was the goal then as a player I felt this setup was all of these things
I think if the design goal is to create a setup that can be engaging for both alignments in a situation with experienced players where the overall Town strength is around the 85th percentile or higher, then some of the mechanical power Town has access to needs to be taken away. I think with a couple more soul reads, a couple more lines of questioning, a little more group cohesion, the amount of Town power is too much for the scum to achieve effective counterplay, even with a 5 person scum team, unless those 5 people happen to work together for the CIA or equivalent agency.
Thank you very much for running this setup, I enjoyed it very much and I'm glad that my team won. I hope my feedback as a player on the setup will be helpful.
Bruce: Terry. I've been thinking about something you once told me... and you were wrong. It's not Batman that makes you worthwhile; it's the other way around. Never tell yourself anything different.
Terry: ...Thanks.
ty for the thoughts titus, really interesting to hear things from your perspective
i felt like there were a lot of places where we did compromise and work together somewhat as town, they just... all ended up being the wrong ones. Malcolm, VP, and Cape all were some amount of compromise. or at least for each of them i remember thinking "i want someone else, but these players want this person". and i don't really think those were that scum influenced? so maybe we just sucked at finding the right places to compromise on lol
In post 8141, fireisredsir wrote:ty for the thoughts titus, really interesting to hear things from your perspective
i felt like there were a lot of places where we did compromise and work together somewhat as town, they just... all ended up being the wrong ones. Malcolm, VP, and Cape all were some amount of compromise. or at least for each of them i remember thinking "i want someone else, but these players want this person". and i don't really think those were that scum influenced? so maybe we just sucked at finding the right places to compromise on lol
A bit but that was lead by the tunnel vision on the assumption that there had to be scum in the hood. With Galron having the soft mech clear, forcing that assumption really hurt. There's also the general assumption that I don't FoS my allies for an extended period of time which did buy a hint of defense for Frogster. Overall, the town had ok in spots but they didn't slow down to focus on what you had. Instead, it was all impulsive thoughts because each of you felt like if you didn't talk right then, you wouldn't be heard. That, ironically, made it where you couldn't hear each other or yourselves. The amount of times town said the right thing but jumped to the wrong thing and back was rather astounding. It was exhausting to deal with as scum, which is part of why I just gave up and voted whoever Math said. I couldn't control the chaotic jumping from item to item, so I attempted to foreclose the conversation instead.
Math wound up thinking that I was bussing VP instead of correctly reading my frustration and working with him.
Math also has a bit of scumreading opposition, so I used that a bit. It made me nervous having Eyes higher at that point, but I was able to turn it solely because Math was pidgeonholing the elimination in the hood. Then it was just a protect the Galron game, sacrificing myself if necessary.
I expected StD and Eyes to fall soon after me. Yet, there was too much data to see the clear link to Eyes and the mechanical elimination was ignored. I don't know why or how that happened.
I mean BP isn't a hard guilty or anything though I guess you could outguess the mod and argue that it made sense for a traitor to be BP. But I think you could also argue that making scum unable to accidentally kill their traitor is a huge safety net and maybe not a great setup design, idk.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
In post 8144, fireisredsir wrote:enchant never claimed holster n2, so nobody had any reason to think that the 2nd shot was the faked one instead of the 3rd shot
2-Shot Alien flips.
It means mafia knew i could't shot 3N and just faking shots (or so they think). More over, i look horible because of that and 100% killable at day.
Now question: Why mafia still shot me? For amusement? Because it looked like i can still shot. Why? Because my last target is bulletproof. Therefore mafia thinked i am ungated vigilante, roleblocked for first two nights and shot bulletproof third night.
But i not blaming, it's hard to catch. But i really hoped you would lim STD just because he is scummy.
but STD also auto dies when all the team scum was killed.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
