Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Marquis]

Like you said that you went searching through old Team Mafia games, so are you saying that you went to the game itself or what?

Um yeah! I looked at all the old Team Mafia games trying to figure out which one you played with Fate!

I really don't know what you think you're going to find out here! :/

[Tammy]

Like you said that you went searching through old Team Mafia games, so are you saying that you went to the game itself or what?

Um yeah! I looked at all the old Team Mafia games trying to figure out which one you played with Fate!

I really don't know what you think you're going to find out here! :/

I didn't play with Fate?

[Marquis]

And what did you enter into the search function?

..."Team Mafia"! :P

If this is about how you played with an alt which is what I'm thinking it's about, there was another thread that had the ID!

[Marquis]

Brb finding it again!

[Gammagooey]

I'd rather curious as to your stance on Bulba.

His relatively early quote-striping and other content-y posts just felt completely devoid of any town thought process- like he was just reacting to other people instead of running through everything himself and coming up with theories and ideas with the exception of some coin theory stuff about mastin which is super easy to come up with as scum.

[Marquis]

...I think I mixed ffery and you up again! :/ The Fate comment from ffery was what had me searching Team Mafia and I went to the 2012 thread that showed up and saw your name!

Or something like that! It was really late and I don't remember but I remember I found a lot of threads and didn't see Fate's name for a long time!

Also @ ffery, I don't think his post was like mine! It read as more restrained and a lot less on purpose!

[Gammagooey]

also bulba's reponse to deas seems super excessive and fillery but that's probably a lot more likely to be me being confirmation biased than the rest of what I think about him.

[Tammy]

And what did you enter into the search function?

..."Team Mafia"!

If this is about how you played with an alt which is what I'm thinking it's about, there was another thread that had the ID!

Then why did you say you looked at the game itself? The game itself doesn't identify me.

What I'm concerned about is that you saw me coming under suspicion and decided to claim you did "research" to fan flames of paranoia which would have been prompted by your team since we were partnered. There is/was no meta subversion last team mafia because I was a replacement, so I couldn't choose my alignment. Also, if you really did look at last team mafia, you would have seen that I was partnered with Jason who was on your team. You could ask him how and why we won that game, but you tried to fan it like TAMMY'S A GOOD SCUM PLAYER Y'ALL when it makes no sense with how that game played out.

What I also don't understand is if you really got paranoid of me, why are you adamant about baning empire?

[Tammy]

Also, marquis is the light horse in the running but not the real dark horse in the running I referred to earlier!

[Tammy]

Are you referring to this?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21696

This has me as listed as scum but not that our team won.

[Titus]

Are you referring to this?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21696

This has me as listed as scum but not that our team won.

I clicked the link to your open normal in that post. It linked me to the game. I found out you won in the second post so your point is lost on me.

Unbane

[Titus]

also bulba's reponse to deas seems super excessive and fillery but that's probably a lot more likely to be me being confirmation biased than the rest of what I think about him.

It's ok. I think the game is suffering from collective confbias and not really talking to each other. I'm trying to remedy that but I suck at it.

[Tammy]

Oh, I didn't see the link

[Marquis]

I think I know what you're getting at but even if I was scum it's not that reliable! I research outcomes of past games all the time no matter what alignment I am; it's just a thing I do naturally so I've never thought too much about the method!

I'm trying to figure out how to explain it accurately because I don't remember how I got to it specifically, but trying to replicate it right now I got here and searched the oldest threads for Fate as scum first but didn't see it (it was this one which didn't have Fate in red which is probably why I missed it) then thought ffery might have been talking about 2012 and clicked on the only one for that (game threads didn't show up) here, which had you listed as the Captain team alt and I got curious and clicked the thread link!

PEDIT Oh lol! I didn't even know that! I think I probably skipped over Jason's name because his blended into the ones around since your line was a lot longer and was more of what I was looking for (whether you got lynched or survived)!

I haven't talked to any of my teammates about anything specific in this game, except for earlier when Empire said Zach and Sotty would townread him and Zach was just like "welp idk". For the most part I think the complexity of and time commitment to understand and keep up this game isn't really meshing well with them, which isn't any problem of theirs in case they're reading now!

[Marquis]

What I also don't understand is if you really got paranoid of me, why are you adamant about baning empire?

As for this I feel like everyone else is assuming you guys are town versus scum!? I'm not sure but this time around I really don't like the certainty there of "one ~or~ the other" and it's like I keep thinking you guys could both be scum because I don't like Empire but then I also think your Zar focus was also kind of overdone!

[Shadoweh]

It's ok. I think the game is suffering from collective confbias and not really talking to each other. I'm trying to remedy that but I suck at it.

I think this game is suffering from collective confusion over what baning means and whether they should be voting who they want lynched or a confusing scumread. I would prefer Bulbasaur over Gamma but Gamma isn't a bad call I guess? Empire is either getting lynched or not.

[Tammy]

Well I guess that thread went nowhere, but earlier it dawned on me that I was an alt in that game, so I went back and looked and my name wasn't indicated in the player list, just my alt. Which meant if you had looked at the game as part of your research you couldn't have known it was me, so the whole thing about research and finding me out felt more like something that was fabricated from your team riding on the beads of suspicion I was getting last night since Jason was my partner in that game.

But well didn't see that link, which makes more sense now.

I don't know why empire thinks that sotty and zach would KNOW this is his town game. As far as I know their interaction with empire is pretty limited. He played with Sotty as part of the Dazed and Confused hydra in Zach's micro a couple years ago, played with Sotty and Zach as part of a hydra with me in the Wire, and played with Zach in Castle Zar - but Zach was a replacement in that game. I'm pretty sure that's all the game experience he has with them, so that statement reads off.

I would like to hear that they're looking at the game in some capacity. In the Wire when I was arguing with Sotty about Jason's alignment and was scum reading him, I referenced our Team Mafia game where we were partners for why I felt able to read Jason at least a little, and she said that she didn't read that game because Jason was scum, so some involvement would be great!

[Tammy]

What I also don't understand is if you really got paranoid of me, why are you adamant about baning empire?

As for this I feel like everyone else is assuming you guys are town versus scum!? I'm not sure but this time around I really don't like the certainty there of "one ~or~ the other" and it's like I keep thinking you guys could both be scum because I don't like Empire but then I also think your Zar focus was also kind of overdone!

I'm not a fan of the either/or thing either.

I don't feel like it was over done at all. Every point I made was valid; whether or not it correctly points to scum is something I'll figure out eventually.

[Empire]

Empire can you explain more about why Regfan is scumreading Tammy?

Sure, although I can't give you the most recent version of his thoughts - he did tell me he was going to do a thorough re-read of her posts when he got back from work. Regfan left a post in our PT on the 30th, which I think Zar had mentioned in here, saying the following:
1) He didn't like that Tammy focused heavily on mechanics stuff and that she had done seemingly no scumhunting and had no reads at all, specifically pointing out that her bane vote was even though she and her team had apparently come to the conclusion that it should be used on scumreads. (I initially agreed with this point but then remembered that Tammy dislikes Day 1 so her early game stuff would make sense from Tammy-town).
2) He also didn't like her reaction to Zar bringing up Espeonage possibly having put in scum tokens in this game by suggesting that Zar took scum tokens himself. It looked like an attempt to discredit Zar to him. (This point resonated with me at the time but her later behavior's made me rethink it.)
3) He also mentioned that he didn't like her lack of reaction to the whole Nacho/you situation. (This is another one that resonated with me but is still nagging at me despite what happened later.)

I'll let you know what Regfan thinks when he does that reread and lets me know what he's thinking.

With regards to the choice I was keeping things to myself more than a bit because I didn't want to be talking about optimal scum play in a complex setup like this.
also I'm kinda surprised you're town reading bulba when the read you posted on him has one minor thing I think is probably true/genuine regardless of his alignment + a teammates read on him. This isn't really a question but I wouldn't mind you giving some more thoughts on him if you've got 'em.

I get your point re: choice but it's more that there was stuff to talk about reads-wise in the game and it seemed like you bypassed all of that to keep talking about the safe stuff. And sorry, but I have nothing new to add about Bulbazak other than what's there, he's a pretty boring poster. The only thing that's happened since my big wall is that Mina sent me a message on skype saying that my townread on Bulbazak was a "TRAVESTY" (yes, with the caps) but we haven't discussed him yet.

P-edit: Tammy, you also forgot the Sherlock game.

[Empire]

Oh, and Zach was also in /in-vitational 12 (he replaced in).

[Titus]

It's ok. I think the game is suffering from collective confbias and not really talking to each other. I'm trying to remedy that but I suck at it.

I think this game is suffering from collective confusion over what baning means and whether they should be voting who they want lynched or a confusing scumread. I would prefer Bulbasaur over Gamma but Gamma isn't a bad call I guess? Empire is either getting lynched or not.

That's the problem. Both are good. Neither is really optimal as we could even pick a category and not everyone would agree.

As long as we're baning someone widely scumread or someone you scumread it should not be a problem.

If scum kill someone largely regarded as suspicious, then we can look at who pushed it. Why were they wrong? Were the arguments they used good?
If scum leave that player alive, we have investigations on them and methods of determining their alignment.

The rest is quibbling. We're arguing over which good option to take. By dickering, we're going to lose booning. If we don't get a boon, baning someone is a partial loss as scum also get that information and many levels of wifom emerge in interpreting that.

Given the bane will move the game along, I'm not opposed to baning Bulba even though I'm townreading him pretty hard. It allows for correction for whoever is wrong.

[Titus]

What I also don't understand is if you really got paranoid of me, why are you adamant about baning empire?

As for this I feel like everyone else is assuming you guys are town versus scum!? I'm not sure but this time around I really don't like the certainty there of "one ~or~ the other" and it's like I keep thinking you guys could both be scum because I don't like Empire but then I also think your Zar focus was also kind of overdone!

I'm not a fan of the either/or thing either.

I don't feel like it was over done at all. Every point I made was valid; whether or not it correctly points to scum is something I'll figure out eventually.

Your confidence is precisely why I followed you though. I know I'm not hot at the early game. I was told to cool my jets and play well with others. We all liked your confidence and that you sounded town from that conviction.

Leaving it doesn't make much sense in that context and throws me off a bit.

[Shadoweh]

I'm confused by people talking about the boon though, we already voted on the Boon didn't we? We're just Baning to make sure we get it?

[Shadoweh]

Okay, apparently that wasn't The Boon, that was The Choice which is different from The Boon because that would make things too easy to understand. I kind of thought we didn't have to pick it up but we should have Baned yesterday on this schedule. <_<


(4) Empire: Bulbazak, GuyInFreezer, Marquis, Untrod Tripod
(4) Bulbazak: DeasVail, Gammagooey, Shadoweh, Cheetory6
(3) Gammagooey: ActionDan, vezokpiraka, Empire
(2) vezokpiraka: T S O, ChannelDelibird
(1) Titus: mastin2

(5) No Bane Vote: Aronis, Espeonage, TellTaleHeart, Tammy, Titus

Guys, plz. Vezok doesn't have support for Baning. Is mastin actually V/LA right now? That keeps saying 'will be v/la' so presumably mastin hasn't gone yet and can move to someone viable. Everyone currently on Empire: Unless you want to Bane and lynch that person, move elsewhere, otherwise carry on. The current plan being discussed is NOT to lynch whoever gets Bane'd. Tammy, Titus, since you're here discussions on Gamma and Bulba plz and who you'd prefer to bane like right now. Titus if you don't want Bulba baned I suggest moving onto Gamma?

[Untrod Tripod]

bane: vezok