Fire on the Mountain [Over]

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Also keeping someone around because you think they're strong town and not because you know what their alignment is shows a lack of reading and applying thought.

Narp. There's lotsa people I'd never lynch D1. For example, the mod, RC, Elli, skitter, ETL....

Some people are more useful than others. If a player is very useful as town, I'm liable to leave them around a few days for two reasons: A. They're likely to eat a nightkill if they're town. B. If I'm wrong about them having more of their thoughts is better than having less of their thoughts.

You said no and then failed to apply reasons as to why you think that keeping someone around only because you think they're good as town without giving reasons you think they're town does not show a lack of read or grasp on what alignment you think that player is.

I reworded it the long way so you could see t better, but my point is I'm not saying keeping someone around because you think they're good as town is scummy, I'm saying that because that's his only reason to defend her and he won't post a town read on her or even try to read her, but instead he tries to dismantle the arguments made against her, he still has room to make his own arguments without contradicting himself.

[Jingle]

Okay. Do you think he should have had a strong read on Shoshin at that point in the thread?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

:thorface:

Your scumcase boils down to:

1. He asked that someone be prodded <48 hours into the game. Apparently because he wanted to be seen as proactive.
2. He asked someone to say he was town.
3. Something you say is NAI.













On a scale from 1 to Even, I just can't.

Jingle you ****. You asked for ****ing examples and I gave MORE EXAMPLES than the ones I ALREADY ****ING GAVE YOU/

QUIT PUTTING ****ING WORDS IN MMY MOUTh
If you're not trying to work wtih me shut up and go away. i started trying to work with you but if you're gonna not try to actually understand what i'm saying and you're gonna skim and and respond to what you think i'm saying you're just being a spaz.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Okay. Do you think he should have had a strong read on Shoshin at that point in the thread?

I think if he's gonna defend shos he should at least have some sort of town read on her. Dismantling other people's arguments for pushing people just puts the game in a "Null" state where no one gets any reads on anyone. You have to push on nothing to get something. That's what RVS is. It's pushing on nothing, with no basis whatsoever. Dismantling arguments this early in the game with no read to the contrary when the player isn't even close to L-1 is anti-town

[Extrapolated Eagle]

My point with the other post is that pretty much eveery post that Vedith has made this game is scummy or NAI, because they're all the four types of posts we've discussed so far. I got one of each of the other three types since we were already talking about the first one

[Jingle]

I think if he's gonna defend shos he should at least have some sort of town read on her. Dismantling other people's arguments for pushing people just puts the game in a "Null" state where no one gets any reads on anyone. You have to push on nothing to get something. That's what RVS is. It's pushing on nothing, with no basis whatsoever. Dismantling arguments this early in the game with no read to the contrary when the player isn't even close to L-1 is anti-town

Why? I don't have a read on Shoshin and I think the wagon on her is terrible.

[Jingle]

If you're not trying to work wtih me shut up and go away. i started trying to work with you but if you're gonna not try to actually understand what i'm saying and you're gonna skim and and respond to what you think i'm saying you're just being a spaz.

Yes. I asked for examples. I asked for examples of these specific behaviors:

not invested, not engaged, spewing fake words and taking fake stances, making lies, trying to look town without having a spine

Arguably, the prod DDL thing could be lamist. I disagree, but I can kind of see how that might be a thing a person would think. I haven't seen the rest. Pick a post that shows to me a lack of engagement or investment. Show me fake words and fake stances. Show me a lie.

[NerfedBuJ]

And scumcase on shoshin was because she ignored DT's attempts at engaging her directly. Like she got something to hide.

Pics? I wanna see the quality of your Kool-Aid before joining any cults.

Trick is to wait until one week after the expiry date.

You seem less serious here than you were in overkill 1.
Would you agree with that and if so is there a reason for it?

[NerfedBuJ]

Jingle would your read on vedith change if he were someone else?

In other words how much of your read is based on his character?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I think if he's gonna defend shos he should at least have some sort of town read on her. Dismantling other people's arguments for pushing people just puts the game in a "Null" state where no one gets any reads on anyone. You have to push on nothing to get something. That's what RVS is. It's pushing on nothing, with no basis whatsoever. Dismantling arguments this early in the game with no read to the contrary when the player isn't even close to L-1 is anti-town

Why? I don't have a read on Shoshin and I think the wagon on her is terrible.

Trying to dismantle a wagon this early in the game with no read on the player is like questioning an RVS vote. It's terribad.

If you're not trying to work wtih me shut up and go away. i started trying to work with you but if you're gonna not try to actually understand what i'm saying and you're gonna skim and and respond to what you think i'm saying you're just being a spaz.

Yes. I asked for examples. I asked for examples of these specific behaviors:

not invested, not engaged, spewing fake words and taking fake stances, making lies, trying to look town without having a spine

Arguably, the prod DDL thing could be lamist. I disagree, but I can kind of see how that might be a thing a person would think. I haven't seen the rest. Pick a post that shows to me a lack of engagement or investment. Show me fake words and fake stances. Show me a lie.

The two you quoted earlier. We already discussed how its fake. If you disagree, you disagree. They're fake stances he's taking as scum for town points. He uses fake words to place his fake stances. He's lying by implying he's town. And we talked about how he took no stance on shoshins alignment while still trying to dismantle her wagon.

[Jingle]

Would you agree with that and if so is there a reason for it?

I actually think on a whole I'm more serious, or did you forget about the 1/3 of my ISO that was discussing comic book deities, my claim to be Queen Latifah, and repeatedly insisting that I was a specific character despite having no way of confirming that information?

The difference, however can be attributed to the fact that this is an open where that was a closed, the comparable weakness of my reads, and the playerbase. I approach different people in different ways, and this game has none of {Thor, Nancy, EJ, Cerbs} all of whom have specific strategies attached to reading/manipulating them.

Jingle would your read on vedith change if he were someone else?

In other words how much of your read is based on his character?

Approximately 0%. I have a better read on your personality than Vedith's. The read is nonplayer specific.

Trying to dismantle a wagon this early in the game with no read on the player is like questioning an RVS vote. It's terribad.

Nope. Pushing back against RVS votes is how you get out of RVS.

The two you quoted earlier. We already discussed how its fake. If you disagree, you disagree. They're fake stances he's taking as scum for town points. He uses fake words to place his fake stances. He's lying by implying he's town. And we talked about how he took no stance on shoshins alignment while still trying to dismantle her wagon.

We're at an impasse regarding those two posts. Talk to me about the lack of engagement. Show me any other lies he's said. Point me to the spinelessness.

[Gamma Emerald]

Well thanks for blowing this up

[Jingle]

Hey, I've only posted 40 times in the last 12 hours.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Nope. Pushing back against RVS votes is how you get out of RVS.

Really? This game is full of scums, then, cuz I saw a lot of RVS votes that went unquestioned.
Also, pushing back against RVS votes != trying to dismantle the argument behind RVS votes.
Also,
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... &start=125
Scum was quick to call it TvT. Like Vedith did here. Pushback and questioning of RVS votes lead to a stale game on page five.

I think I'd shudder if I got in a mafia fame and people started seriously questioning every RVS vote. Makes shivers go down my spine.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

you saying "why did you randomly vote shoshin" is different from you saying "don't RVS vote shoshin because your reasoning is bad"

Addressing arguments I'm not making only moves us sideways and makes me more frustrated

[NerfedBuJ]

I actually think on a whole I'm more serious, or did you forget about the 1/3 of my ISO that was discussing comic book deities, my claim to be Queen Latifah, and repeatedly insisting that I was a specific character despite having no way of confirming that information?

The difference, however can be attributed to the fact that this is an open where that was a closed, the comparable weakness of my reads, and the playerbase. I approach different people in different ways, and this game has none of {Thor, Nancy, EJ, Cerbs} all of whom have specific strategies attached to reading/manipulating them.

Tbh yeah I did forget that. Your ISO as a whole I would classify as very serious. You spent a whole lot of time trying to figure stuff out. You unironically counted every occurence of the word 'but' in my ISO because you thought it was scum-indicative. That's some serious shit.
I'm guessing being a mason probably made you more relaxed to joke around more so maybe this wasn't a great question to ask.

[Jingle]

Questioning RVS =/= bad does not imply that all RVS should be questioned.

Dismantling the argument behind RVS votes is in fact pushing back against RVS votes.

Are you arguing that Vedith was attempting to derail game momentum by pushing back against the Shoshin wagon?

PEdit: I'm saying the two are fundamentally the same thing. Instead of taking the stance that Shoshin is scum or town, Vedith took the stance that the wagon on her was bad. That is in fact still taking a stance, and there's a disconnect between us where apparently you think saying a wagon is bad without having a read on the player said wagon is on is scummy.

[Jingle]

Tbh yeah I did forget that. Your ISO as a whole I would classify as very serious. You spent a whole lot of time trying to figure stuff out. You unironically counted every occurence of the word 'but' in my ISO because you thought it was scum-indicative. That's some serious shit.

I counted every instance of the word but in your ISO in 8 games. Get it right.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

OK. I vote for Jingle.

Jingle says why?

I say cuz I don't like your avi

You say yeah well you're scum cuz that's a bad reason and vote for me.

That's push back. We have two people with two votes both expressing their opinion of who they want to lynch, where their read lies and why, and people can push one way or the other now for further reactions. That gets people out of RVS

Another example.

I say I vote for jingle

You say why

I say cuz I don't like your avi

You say your argument is dumb, stop voting for me

This goes back and forth until I stop voting for you.

Now we have two players and no votes, nothing indicating who has what read on who, who wants to lynch who, or anything like that. Just two null reads. That's what vedith is doing. He doesn't have a read. He's not pushing back. He's trying to stop the person from voting. See how it's different? See how what he's doing is useless and anti-town?

[Jingle]

No. Because there's still information to analyze.

Is your reason for voting Shoshin dumb? Should Vedith have a read on Shoshin? Does Vedith have a different person he's interested in pursuing?

How is what Vedith is doing any different than if he'd come into the thread without a read on Shoshin and blindly sheeped you for pressure?

[Jingle]

And also no one votes Jingle because they don't like my avvy. My avvy's are boss.

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Are you arguing that Vedith was attempting to derail game momentum by pushing back against the Shoshin wagon?

Kinda, yes.

[NerfedBuJ]

Approximately 0%. I have a better read on your personality than Vedith's. The read is nonplayer specific.

Yeah that's just disappointing for two reasons.

1. I was hoping for some insight into vedith. As far as I can recall I've only read him correctly once and that's because he hardclaimed the only PR role in the game.

2. From what I do know about you, it baffles me that you specifically are not seeing that Eagles' point about vedith giving himself outs by not committing to a solid read is objectively sound, regardless of either player's alignment.
Vedith could be doing it as town, and Eagle could be pointing it out as scum, but hypothetically there could be scum motivation and there could be town motivation for vedith taking neutral stances, so rejecting the existence of the scum motivation in it is naive at best.


Pedit - everytime I try to post you guys are adding more

[Jingle]

Are you arguing that Vedith was attempting to derail game momentum by pushing back against the Shoshin wagon?

Kinda, yes.

Counterpoint:

Why is shosin still alive?

4 more votes needed.

VOTE: DoubtingThomas

Shoshin isn't today's lynch.
I'd rather away from DT but I'll lynch DT over Shoshin.

I didn't like the fuel on the fire saying that a game we just had was almost lost from self voting.
It's a different situation all together, and as said, both players to do it were town so BuJ should surely have the mentality that it's a townier thing to do.

VOTE: NerfedBuJ

While pushing against the Shoshin wagon, Vedith was offering alternatives.

[NerfedBuJ]

Post 1 is a stance I'd take for town cred. I don't want to fully town read her unless the push on her becomes nice and easy later, but I want to look like I'm trying to offer my opinion and work with town. Also keeping someone around because you think they're strong town and not because you know what their alignment is shows a lack of reading and applying thought.

Post 2 is against the grain and everyone thinks oh wow someone going against the grain that guy must be town. hrs not saying why he thinks she's town, he's saying why he think the other persons argument that she is scum is bad. This leaves him an opening to still push her as scum without contradicting himself if the opportunity arises.

This is what I was referring to.