Mini 664 - AoaDA - Game Over

[farside22]

The mod PM'ed me and here is what was said.

Incognito wrote:
Did you believe Elmo and that's why you chose his time period?


Yes. I don't know why honestly, but I read Elmo as town and thought it was possible that even though TT was a cop Elmo doing the counter claim didnt' make sense. I don't think of him as that type of player as scum.

Was I right?

[Incognito]

Some thoughts

• There were a few things I was trying to accomplish with this set-up. I think destructor covered one of them in one of his posts when he said the following:
  

  Thinking all of this through, it sounds like the idea Incog had behind this setup was to devalue powerroles. Their value hinges entirely on the survival of the Alchemist. Once the Alchemist is dead, they're useless.

  The first portion of what he mentioned was true - I did want to create a game that placed a minimal amount of importance on power roles. I liked the idea of the Alchemist acting almost like a double-edged sword; on the one hand, the Alchemist had the potential to be a fairly strong information role on its own as it was the only role in the game that really truly knew which people might have been activated and at what time during the night, but on the other hand, its power caused a portion of the town to lose its power at the same time. I was actually happy that the randomizer ended up sorting the roles the way it did -- the town power roles, excluding the Alchemist, were evenly divided across time periods and even the scum roles were evenly divided as well.
  
  
• Before the game began, I thought that while the town was at a slight disadvantage since a good portion of the power roles would be shut off, the scum was also be at a slight disadvantage since fake-claiming power roles could prove to be difficult for them especially if the Alchemist was still alive to disprove the fake-claimer with the true Twilight information. The only role that the scum had to try and figure out exactly what time period they might have been in during the night was the rolecop since this role was the only one that had a true night action. The encryptor was always functional since it controlled a daytime ability (daytalking) so that role was no help with determining time periods and the goon was a vanilla scum role. That kind of "scum being forced to fake-claim" situation never arose though since none of the scum had to fake-claim a role.
  
  
• Another thing I was hoping for from this set-up though was a squashing of one particular meta. One thing that I've noticed happen over and over again in a good portion of games is the idea that town power roles can take a more lax approach to the game when compared to vanillas since they a) want to remain behind the scenes so that they don't get NK-ed and b) can always rely on their claim to escape a lynch situation. I was hoping that with the presence of the Alchemist, the town power roles would feel more inclined to become more involved in the game and become more pro-town since they would be hoping that the Alchemist would enable their time period so that they could use their power. I was somewhat disappointed when this didn't exactly play out the way I expected it to.
  
  
• I was pretty happy with some of the thought that went into this game from the players. bionicchop2 and Elmo both did speculate a bit about the possibility of there being double cops in the set-up due to the game mechanics. Unfortunately for town, that was mainly speculative at first until Day 3 came. Interestingly, destructor's plan of lynching Muerrto instead of one of the two claimed cops might have been a nice course of action after all for town.
  
  
• Choosing the roles for this game was somewhat tricky. I didn't think trackers would give the town enough information since they would probably only get activated once the whole game. Watchers might have been interesting, but I never really considered them until after I had my set-up all planned out. I knew the town would need purely information roles to figure out things about the set-up in case the Alchemist died. This is why the Cops got a result of "No Result" when they weren't activated, and the Vigilante served as an information role as well in situations where it didn't see its kill coming through the next day. I definitely didn't want to include roleblockers (destructor I think mentioned this at one point about roleblockers being "overkill"), and I didn't want scum having investigation immune or NK immune stuff since that would make the set-up way more confusing for town than it already was.
  
  
• Incidentally, the double cop thing was Ether's idea. She wanted to take a step towards squashing the "No Doubles" meta, and I thought it was a pretty interesting idea, so I went along with it since I thought set-up/mechanic speculation might have helped town realize that two cops might just be possible after all. That's probably a tricky leap of thought though especially if enough people think one of the doubles is acting really scummy.
  
  
• It amazed me how back to back to back D1 replacements landed their opening votes on scum. The Central Scrutinizer replaced in and placed his vote on icemanE, Erg0 replaced in and also placed his vote on icemanE, and farside22 replaced in and placed her vote on Muerrto and even went so far as to link Muerrto with icemanE from the get-go.

But yeah, those are just a few thoughts that come to mind. I'll try to bring forward others if I think of them.

I asked the scum if I could post their QuickTopic and so far one scum said yes, so I'm waiting for replies from the other two.

Thanks to everyone who stuck it out from the beginning and thanks to my replacements for coming through and playing the game as well. I hope you at least somewhat enjoyed it. =)

[sthar8]

To be honest, I felt like the Muerrto/Ice connection was strong. I was hoping you two would back off and maybe bus each other a bit, then you'd keep defending each other. I had to make some moves to distract attention that really put targets on my head, but I didn't want to be alone at the start of D3. Des was right on with his thought that I was just making noise with the case on him; I was trying to distract him from ice/muerrto.

I feel like I successfully contributed to the death of des's "lynch muerrto plan" (took me a long time to figure out what to say against this one) and elmo's final defense.

Elmo, I spent a good deal of time trying to confuse your read on me, but my comments on ice should have been a big hint. I had hoped that they would diffuse the situation then be forgotten, but you made me dig up some bullcrap story. I was shocked when you didn't pursue it.

I knew you had an intuitive read on me, but I also knew that you'd never take that to a lynch without evidence, and you had none. I did some serious buddying with you to prevent you from gaining the evidence you needed. Did you seriously think I was scum, or did you just think you were missing one?

As for my playstyle, I'm trying to keep it ambiguous. 2 completed games as scum and three as town as of now, and I think I've been fairly consistant.

Not a lot left to say. In the most ironic sense possible, gg

Don't be sore. I had a lot of fun, and it was a significant challenge to pull this one off. I felt that is was more effort than luck (though luck was definately involved)

I was pissed when kai replaced out. I had spent a significant amount of effort putting him on a leash (no offense kai!) then he went and ruined the effort. BC noticed the connection immediately, but picked it up from the wrong end. Likewise, I was preparing glot to become an ally who I could bus if the need arose. Glot, if you're reading this, I was trying to confuse you so that I could back off slowly, call you protown, and have a good reason to defend you, hopefully making you more amenable to my suggestions.

Incog: I liked the idea. I probably would have used less powerful roles, with a greater number, but I'm no expert. I might have been less random with the time period distribution, as all three cops in the same period with an early alchemist kill would have been insane.

Thanks to everybody for a great game!

[sthar8]

EBWOP:

Our QT started partway through the game, mostly because I didn't know that QT existed when we began. Our PM's prior to that aren't very interesting: we decided that my role was the most valuable, that Muerrto should send the kills and die first if necessary, and that we should try to eliminate everyone in the modern period that we suspected of having a PR, so that when we discovered the alchemist Ice would be free to investigate in peace.

[destructor]

Good game guys. Well done scum. It's a pity to have lost, but I think there was some awesome play this game and I enjoyed the ride. Lots.

Without commenting in detail right now, TT coming up Cop was a huge curveball. I don't think I would have voted Elmo, though, because 1. I liked my read of him, 2. he wouldn't have done what he did yesterday as scum (i.e. bring nooses and death upon himself) unless he wanted to pull some major WIFOM on our asses and 3. given 1 and 2, I would have been more willing to accept that we had 2 Cops taking the Alchemist mechanic into account. And seriously, Elmo didn't look or smell like scum. He was awesome.

Incog, great modding as usual! Thanks for the setup, I dig it.

It would have been cool to lynch some scum and see how things went. I think the discussion would have been great.

I'll post more later.

[ShadowGirl]

1) No, I did not mean to self hammer. Lesson: Always preview your posts, especially when you go to grab something to eat. x_x
2) I found playing with Elmo rather pleasant , and it was you sthar, that I had some personality clash with. I don't know if you just play that way or were trying to purposely anger me...
3) Stay open to setups that could mess with your head - which I'd already learned from a previous game.
4) A very interesting setup and wonderful modding, Incog, of course! <3
5) When I think of it. >>

[Elmo]

sthar8: Honestly, I was much more focused on Iceman/Muerrto. For a good while, I thought it was likely to be something like Iceman/Muerrto/Thinktank, which threw me off a bit. It's difficult to strike a balance between getting a scum lynch right now and figuring out the whole group - I was pretty happy just lynching them and figuring out "the other one" later. In retrospect, it was kind of obvious it was either you or ZazieR, but that's with hindsight. If I didn't counterclaim, I would probably have investigated you night 2, I think, although it's hard to know... ZazieR seemed a bit more townish day 2.

I mean, it's a tradeoff, you would (all due respect) never have endgamed me, but then I never live to the endgame, so it doesn't really matter, does it? I did think Des might have been onto something, but I didn't follow it up, I kind of lost interest a bit when I got ill.

ShadowGirl: Sorry, at least I realised my mistake quickly T.T good luck with your studies

[icemanE]

You called the game?! Dude, you claimed with NO danger of being lynched then got everyone to lynch Think because 'there couldn't be 2 cops' then the next day you tried to defend yourself saying 'there could be 2 cops, why outguess the mod?'

YOU caused the Think mislynch AND your own mislynch by your claim and your bandwagon because 'there can't be 2 cops'. How the hell did you think people would believe you the next day when Think flipped cop? YOU handed us the game. Otherwise, Ice or me would've been lynched that day.

Hell, even us scum thought for sure you were the SK, not another cop.

QFT

Nice game everyone, toughie.

[Incognito]

Oh and in case anyone's interested, here was the scum's QuickTopic (provided by permission of the scums of course): Drunken Scumchat.

And thanks for the feedback sthar8, destructor, and ShadowGirl. <3

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Just one more reason why I don't like multi-cop closed setups.

Whatever.

Good game, scum. Sorry, Elmo.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Reason=example in that post.

[destructor]

You called the game?! Dude, you claimed with NO danger of being lynched then got everyone to lynch Think because 'there couldn't be 2 cops' then the next day you tried to defend yourself saying 'there could be 2 cops, why outguess the mod?'

No one should even begin to imply that TT's play was remotely good in this game. I have no reservations about having lynched him. His play was poor as a Cop, let alone as town. Elmo's counterclaim was icing on the cake. Like I said a number of times, the only thing keeping TT alive was his Cop claim and a counterclaim was a decent reason to doubt TT was town given how anti-town his play was. The same was in no way true of Elmo.

YOU caused the Think mislynch AND your own mislynch by your claim and your bandwagon because 'there can't be 2 cops'. How the hell did you think people would believe you the next day when Think flipped cop? YOU handed us the game. Otherwise, Ice or me would've been lynched that day.

I think TCS' vote handed you the game. Unless he thought BC and Ice were both scum, he shouldn't have made it there and then given it was lylo. Even if he thought Elmo was definitely scum. Fast days aren't good for towns, even if scum get lynched.

Try and remember it's a game, don't insult EVERYONE you play with, and deflate your ego about 17 notches...

Without meaning to sound like an Elmo fanboy, his play was great in this game and I think he's right to be proud of it. I was definitely impressed. He pegged you and Ice before anyone else. He got screwed by the metagame, not by his play.

Also, there is a difference between criticising play and criticising people. I don't remember Elmo ever doing the latter.

I think the town needs to take some heat for calling for a counter-claim. That was all on the assumption that there was one cop, which was the wrong one to make even if TT made it

very

easy to believe so. Two Cops wasn't unbalanced, even if it could have been been a bit swingy with the randomisation, so it was definitely reasonable.

I was wrong about Kai. Apologies. I still think his play was kind of backwards and that everything I said, like in 395, was true, only that I realise now it didn't necessarily mean he was scum. sthar, were your defences of Kai genuine? Do you support play like his was in Day 1? Do you think it's pro-town?

I'm glad I was right about the "subset". There were reasons I could have been wrong, but I think the fact that Muerrto kept glossing over the scum

team

argument gave it weight and was ultimately very telling. It also helped that Elmo's and BC's play was very pro-town.

[destructor]

The mod PM'ed me and here is what was said.

Incognito wrote:
Did you believe Elmo and that's why you chose his time period?


Yes. I don't know why honestly, but I read Elmo as town and thought it was possible that even though TT was a cop Elmo doing the counter claim didnt' make sense. I don't think of him as that type of player as scum.

Was I right?

Props to farside for this.
It was a pity that you misread your role PM and claimed as early as you did. I think you and the most of the town played really well. Even though we lost, I think we should be happy with how well we scum-hunted. Our undoing was giving in to the metagame. Lynching TT wasn't bad play. I think the fatal mistake was lynching a player who, ignoring the metagame, we had little reason to believe was scum.

There's a strange sort of complement there. TT's claim saved him from his play while it turned out exactly opposite for Elmo. Irony.

[Incognito]

There's a strange sort of complement there. TT's claim saved him from his play while it turned out exactly opposite for Elmo. Irony.

Nicely said.

I know everyone's likely gone their separate ways and probably has removed this from their watched topics but one thing that I always thought was a major point in favor of Elmo's claim was his choice of investigation and his revealed investigation result (guilty on icemanE). icemanE was likely going to be D2's lynch but was spared only because of Elmo's counterclaim. If Elmo was scum, this would mean that not only did he decide to counterclaim a cop, he also would have completely redirected a wagon that would have caused a mislynch on a hypothetical townie (icemanE) only to reappear the next day with a guilty result on that "townie". I don't know think a scum would really go through all that level of convolution just to get a cop lynched and then try to get

another

mislynch, especially since Elmo wasn't exactly atop anyone's suspicions lists during Day 2. Therefore, I felt like this was probably one of the strongest points in Elmo's favor for why his claim should have been believed.

Anyway, thanks again to all for playing.

[Muerrto]

What killed Elmo was TT flipping cop and no one, even Elmo the day before, thinking there could be 2 cops. We tried to outguess the mod, even us scum did, and were wrong. My point was the timing of Elmo's counterclaim. With a lynch of either me or Ice imminent, the claim was not needed. When either of us flipped scum the other would die the next day almost assuredly. Then you'd have plenty of town left with only 1 scum left. Hence my saying the claim gave scum the game.

Alot of people, myself included, claim a power role too early to rid themselves of any suspiscion and to make their agruments look more valid than they are. Being a power role doesn't make your arguments any more valid than a vanilla's but the town often seems to think it does. A game trying to downplay the role of power roles was a great idea. The only reason it backfired is because the player's mentality didn't downplay them. We still took any power role claim as gospel and tried to stick to the same meta(1 cop) we were used to instead of adjusting to the differences in this game.

On a side note, the day talk ability was insanely powerful and you may want to rethink that one.

[MeMe]

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