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Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:39 am
by Plotinus
i don't think that would work.

circular protection chain:
a
>
b
>
c
>
d
>
e
>
f
>
g
>
h
>
i
>
a


mafia shoots a, i dies. h is not guilty.

I said in the initial rules that bodyguard only protects from mafia bullet. chains don't work. (d and g aren't really protecting anybody they're just claiming to)

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:43 am
by quadz08
why would i die, not h?

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:44 am
by quadz08
OH never mind I got it now

oh I don't think you can break it from right off the bat I guess then. I don't know if it's much fun - and what happens if a, b, and c all protect d who gets shot?

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:47 am
by Plotinus
if a, b, and c protect d, then a dies.

before the game starts, it's randomised what order the bodyguard protects happen in, they're assigned a secret order for which one would win the trip to the dead thread.

i really enjoyed being a bodyguard in a game i played in. when i wanted out, i just had to predict the nightkill. i was nightkilled n1. it was great. in this setup if i was having a game where i wasn't right about my reads very much, i'd protect someone who seemed to be doing better. if i was having a good game and having fun, i wouldn't protect anyone.

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:21 am
by Bicephalous Bob
Circular protects are optimal since you'd still be able to draw a simple conclusion from the kills: the dead man's target is town or the person who was supposed to protect him is scum.

Allowing scum to kill themselves would mostly remedy this.

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:24 am
by Plotinus
that makes sense. I'd allow them to target themselves for the nightkill, then.

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:27 am
by Ythan
I see little reason to ever disallow scum from self-killing.

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:28 am
by Plotinus
I'd disallow them killing their teammates by PM, but if they submit a self kill in the PT and at the very least they all agree to it then that's fine.

Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2015 4:34 pm
by callforjudgement
Clearly the correct approach here is to convince the scum they can only break the setup via self-killing, and then not protect anyone.

(I seem to remember something like this happening to Hoopla once.)

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:27 am
by Plotinus
I think if it's public knowledge that the mafia may shoot themselves if they desire to, it becomes optimal for the mafia to not shoot themselves again.

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:42 am
by St Constantine the Hermit
It is almost my turn to mod on the Open Queue. Can someone explain what kind of set-up I would be modding, and how it would be chosen?

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2015 6:00 am
by Plotinus
the list mod will give you a choice of popular setups and you can choose one you like. It's explained here: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=62144

Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2015 5:32 am
by wgeurts
Whodunnit:

Mafia Ascetic
Mafia Tracker
Mafia Goon

Jailkeeper
Fruit-Vendor
Ascetic
7 Vanilla Townies


  • Daystart
  • Ascetics can block fruit-vendor.
  • Players are notified their action was blocked if it was.


Proceed with caution:

Mafia Ascetic
Mafia Goon

Hider
Universal Backup
Ascetic
4 Vanilla Townies


  • Daystart.
  • Universal Backup can inherit the town Ascetic.
  • Mafia get a vengekill on the first death of one of their faction.

Having some ideas with ascetics. I'm thinling the tracker may be to strong in the first one and the second setup would be a mindfudge for the players. Imagine the claiming strategies!

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 10:09 am
by callforjudgement
What happens if you hide behind a Mafia Ascetic? (Hider has a ton of variations anyway, and I'm 100% not sure how any of them would work out.)

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:49 pm
by St Constantine the Hermit
The godfather of chaos set-ups


Vanguard OPEN JOAT (1)
OPEN JOAT (1)
Visitors (4)

Vanguard OPEN JOAT (1)
OPEN JOAT (1)

Arsonist (1)
(from Titus's "Don't trust the Cops" set-up)



Open JOAT is an ability that can use any conventional role a night
The vanguard is a role which protects all who target it, but also gets the power of whomever targetted the slot for that night. In this game, the vanguard role simply gets an extra JOAT shot each time it is targeted.

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 4:00 pm
by JasonWazza
wgeurts wrote:
Proceed with caution:

Mafia Ascetic
Mafia Goon

Hider
Universal Backup
Ascetic
4 Vanilla Townies


  • Daystart.
  • Universal Backup can inherit the town Ascetic.
  • Mafia get a vengekill on the first death of one of their faction.


This one first, why is it that Mafia get a vengekill?

That turns the game into LYLO day 2 (5v2, goes to a 3v2, meaning the game is over because the mafia vengekill plus the faction kill is game over.)

And no the hider isn't a good counter to this, 1 person who can possibly avoid the kill, but is also likely to turn someone into a double kill, and has a 2/9 chance of failing his hide (Assumedly given how an Ascetic works.)

wgeurts wrote:
Whodunnit:

Mafia Ascetic
Mafia Tracker
Mafia Goon

Jailkeeper
Fruit-Vendor
Ascetic
7 Vanilla Townies


  • Daystart
  • Ascetics can block fruit-vendor.
  • Players are notified their action was blocked if it was.



10v3 with essentially no power roles (you have a JK that makes a legitimate difference, otherwise you have 2 named townies.)

As a note, does the JK targeting a Ascetic give him a notification?

St Constantine the Hermit wrote:
The godfather of chaos set-ups


Vanguard OPEN JOAT (1)
OPEN JOAT (1)
Visitors (4)

Vanguard OPEN JOAT (1)
OPEN JOAT (1)

Arsonist (1)
(from Titus's "Don't trust the Cops" set-up)



Open JOAT is an ability that can use any conventional role a night
The vanguard is a role which protects all who target it, but also gets the power of whomever targetted the slot for that night. In this game, the vanguard role simply gets an extra JOAT shot each time it is targeted.


"can use any conventional role" Mafia used Vigilante, they now have 3 kills a night.

As a note, it seems logistical that town would either use Cop or use Watcher.

Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:25 pm
by wgeurts
That's the intention with the first setup, it's a weird vengeful like spin-off.

As with the second, the fruit-vendor is an effective ascetic-cop which with flips may prove useful. If the jailkeeper targets an ascetic he does get blocked and notified yes.
Maybe the ascetic's in Proceed with caution should be made into commuters?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:36 am
by Sméagol
I had this idea that I wanted to try in the micro queue, or the blitz queue now that it's an option, as soon as I know if I have the time in November.

"Buy an ability mafia" (working title)

- No predefined roles.
- Players get to buy an ability for the night.
- The available abilities are on the whitelist below (not fully determined yet)
- Every ability is only available to one player, and they're handed out on a first come, first served basis.
- There will be a max number of abilities handed out each night, so not everyone will be able to do an action. The number is number of players - absolute majority (example: with 13 players, the limit is 6).
- The "cost" of an ability, is the ability to vote on the
next
day.
- you only get to send one request. You will only know if your request is granted the following day.
- There is one special ability, which gives you priority for choosing abilities
next
night.
- Everything else is as usual, player ratios, voting.. Deadlines obviously depend on the queue, but I want "short" deadlines for this game in general. 2-1 for the blitz queue, and 6-1 for the micro queue.

Proposed whitelist:
alignment investigation
ability investigation
kill protect
ability protect
track
reverse track (or watch as you call it)
redirect
roleblock
priority

Any comments on this?

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:45 am
by LicketyQuickety
Sméagol wrote:I had this idea that I wanted to try in the micro queue, or the blitz queue now that it's an option, as soon as I know if I have the time in November.

"Buy an ability mafia" (working title)

- No predefined roles.
- Players get to buy an ability for the night.
- The available abilities are on the whitelist below (not fully determined yet)
- Every ability is only available to one player, and they're handed out on a first come, first served basis.
- There will be a max number of abilities handed out each night, so not everyone will be able to do an action. The number is number of players - absolute majority (example: with 13 players, the limit is 6).
- The "cost" of an ability, is the ability to vote on the
next
day.
- you only get to send one request. You will only know if your request is granted the following day.
- There is one special ability, which gives you priority for choosing abilities
next
night.
- Everything else is as usual, player ratios, voting.. Deadlines obviously depend on the queue, but I want "short" deadlines for this game in general. 2-1 for the blitz queue, and 6-1 for the micro queue.

Proposed whitelist:
alignment investigation
ability investigation
kill protect
ability protect
track
reverse track (or watch as you call it)
redirect
roleblock
priority

Any comments on this?


Heh... I played a game that was kinda like this one as an unkillable role.

Have a question about one thing.

You attempt to purchase an ability. Do you get charged a vote or not? Also unless the game is NOT majority lynch I don't see this working.

Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 1:13 pm
by callforjudgement
If it has short deadlines and plurality lynch at deadline, the basic concept should work. (Also, based on experience with this sort of game, I should mention that it's very important that the game does not have a purchasable kill.)

First come, first served is a potential problem, though (especially where Cop and Watcher are concerned, which are easily the two most powerful on the list); it means that timezones have a large influence on the game. Especially if the same player goes for it again after again. Perhaps it'd work best if the players are given role priority numbers in their role PMs, and if multiple players request the same role, the player with the highest number wins. (That way, players with lower numbers would know that they would be unlikely to get the more desirable roles.)

Also 1 night deadlines won't work in the Micro Queue (too much risk of missed night actions), so I think this game would be more suited to the blitz queue (where you can quite legitimately tell people "get online every day or don't show up"). Probably even 3-1 would work (although would definitely count as blitz).

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:41 am
by St Constantine the Hermit
"can use any conventional role" Mafia used Vigilante, they now have 3 kills a night.

As a note, it seems logistical that town would either use Cop or use Watcher.


I do need to start being more clear about this. In the last three set-ups I proposed here, mafia had no nightkill considering they could kill townies each night through other means.

I am open to a more conventional set-up where killing roles are denied, and mafia has a normal nightkill.

Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2015 11:53 pm
by Sméagol
LicketyQuickety wrote:[..]
Have a question about one thing.

You attempt to purchase an ability. Do you get charged a vote or not?

Only if your request is granted.

Also unless the game is NOT majority lynch I don't see this working.

I'll elaborate below.
callforjudgement wrote:If it has short deadlines and plurality lynch at deadline, the basic concept should work.

I don't like plurality lynches, but I could change the limit of abilities given out. For example, I could make it
number of players - absolute majority - 2
. In fact, after thinking about it, I've decided I like the idea of having all the votes available in the end-game stage, when only 3 players remain. Which means I should stop handing out abilities when 4 players remain.. But I'll have to figure out an algorithm that suits me in both the begin stage of the game as well as the end stage, so I'll come back to that.

Initially, I personally thought the risk of making lynches harder was not a problem:
- First of all, it's a conscious trade-off. Do I get the ability, hopefully catching a scum, and let the others do the voting? You'd better be convincing.
- Secondly, the first come first served and one request restrictions would alleviate this problem.
But like I said, I'll reduce the number of abilities given out, although I don't know by how much yet.

(Also, based on experience with this sort of game, I should mention that it's very important that the game does not have a purchasable kill.)

I have multiple set-up ideas with no pre-defined roles, and I have yet to find a way to incorporate a kill ability in a fair manner.. So no, I won't add a kill ability. In fact, unless prompted otherwise, I'll just use the list I suggested.

First come, first served is a potential problem, though (especially where Cop and Watcher are concerned, which are easily the two most powerful on the list); it means that timezones have a large influence on the game. Especially if the same player goes for it again after again. Perhaps it'd work best if the players are given role priority numbers in their role PMs, and if multiple players request the same role, the player with the highest number wins. (That way, players with lower numbers would know that they would be unlikely to get the more desirable roles.)

This quote touches upon a few things.. First of all, I don't think it will be a problem. Sure, some abilties are more desirable, so you will have to make a decision: request a popular ability and contend with competitors, or request something not as popular and increase your chances.. Or just try to be the first to request it. You could also try to use the dayphase to help you out.. Perhaps openly discuss ability requests, with the risk of the mafia using this to their advantage, or try to leave hints..

About timezones, yeah, that's an unfortunate and unavoidable issue. The "priority" ability was created especially to alleviate that, to give someone else a chance to get a popular ability. I forgot to mention the priority ability is a special case, and doesn't cost you your vote, and doesn't count towards the ability limit. If you request (and are granted) the priority ability, the next night you have first dibs on any ability.

I could try to alleviate it further by having a separate start time independant of the regular deadlines, after which players can start sending in requests. For example, if we take 48 hour dayphases, one day it may be after 24 hours, the next after 36..

I do not want to give certain players an inherent advantage.

Originally, I wanted players to be able to send in another request if their first choice wasn't available, but:
1] That's more work for me.
2] That gives them info that I prefer they only get to know when the night's over.
I could compromise by using wishlists, top 2 or top 3, so if their first choice isn't available, I'll use the next one.

Also 1 night deadlines won't work in the Micro Queue (too much risk of missed night actions), so I think this game would be more suited to the blitz queue (where you can quite legitimately tell people "get online every day or don't show up"). Probably even 3-1 would work (although would definitely count as blitz).
I originally had this in mind for the micro queue, but I'm eager to see how the blitz queue performs here, so I'm leaning towards that one currently. But I'll keep it in mind for future reference.

If I'm doing a micro game, I'll do a 9p (7-2) game with 5-2 day-night cycles, if I'm doing a blitz game, I'll do a 13p (10-3) game with 2-1 day-night cycles. Do you people have any preferences? I'll enter the queue at the start of November, if I know my schedule is clear for the month, although if I enter the Blitz queue I'll need a reviewer first.

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:06 pm
by BBmolla
Assassins In The Royal Couple Kingmaker Palace With Mafia


9 Players

1 Prince
1 Princess
2 Princess Guards
2 Prince Guards

1 Mafia Kingmaker
1 Mafia Prince and Princess Guard

1 Assassin


  • Kingmaker chooses the first King within the first 48 hours.
  • If both the Prince and Princess die, the Assassin wins and town and mafia loses. The Assassin may suicide bomb at any time, day or night. If both Prince/Princess are alive, he suicide bombs onto two targets. If only one is alive he suicide bombs onto one.
  • Mafia win when they equal or exceed the amount of other players. Mafia have one kill every night.
  • Kingmaker submits two choices at night in case first choice dies. A Mafia Kingmaker may not Kingmake his partner. It will always instead go to the second choice.
  • If a Kingmaker dies, the dead Kingmaker selects a new one.
  • The Princess Guards only know the identity or the Princess. The Prince Guards only know the identity of the Prince.


100% balanced

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:04 am
by TierShift
town is going to win 100% of the time but good try m8

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 8:19 am
by BBmolla
TierShift wrote:town is going to win 100% of the time but good try m8

Like auto win?

If so what am I missing, it's a 3:6 not nightless