Newbie 1378 - Game Over! (Town Wins)

[uctriton00]

Sorry I read your sentence as "aggressiveness isn't being rude"; I just reread the sentence.

[enomis]

Sorry I read your sentence as "aggressiveness isn't being rude"; I just reread the sentence.

. Actually I have a question to ask mastin. I actually am dumb founded at how you use wifom and how I never hammer lucky to suggest I am 100% scum. I actually really find that argument super scummy and illogical. I would like to know your logic behind the if possible :p

[mattel]

UCRIT YOU SO AREN'T TOWN, GO DIE IN A HOLE

LUCKY YOU DUMB FUCK I DIDN'T INVESTIGATE YOU SO HOW COULD I KNOW YOUR TOWN YOU DUMBASS

AND U LYNCH ME YOU DUMB FUCKS

YOUR NOT DUMB ENOUGH TO QUICKHAMMER LIKE A DUMBASS KNOWING THERE IS STILL A PR SITTING OUT THERE

SERIOUSLY YOU HAMMERED YOUR COP LIKE A FUCK WIT.

Tell me none of those were rude.

Yeah, this type of play was really off putting for me. I wouldn't mind it so much if I was around and knew that was his style of play. However, this being my first game and watching a poster run around calling people retard and dumb fucks made me really question what kind of site is being ran here. Especially since I thought most everyone in the game was new as well. It just really doesn't put mafiascum in a positive light letting people run around and trying to demean them whether he wants to call it game play or whatever.

I would be more than happy to play another game with the little piece of aborted shit whose mother was probably to busy sucking dicks to keep the power on rather than teach him manners. I am sure we could light this place on fire with horrendous, over the top insults lol

Kidding jason. Only kidding.

[uctriton00]

And feedback for the moderator,

There were times when we needed you but we understand real life gets in the way, but thanks for putting the game together.
And "special" thanks to Nobody Special who was able to keep the game going for a bit at least too.

And with all moderators, at least you're not Venrob, who immediately locked the topic after the game is over, so that nobody can talk about his choice to change the deadline twice on us. Or chkflip, who believes nobody needs a dead quicktopic for Newbie format games.

[mastin2]

Love how my mastin advice is tiny compared to everyone else's.

Well, you were the one who needed it the least.

Remember that time when I said you were being manipulative

And you got mad at me

And then you admitted you were being manipulative

Different types of manipulation.

Manipulating a player (what I did) is part of the game. Manipulating a newbie by using logic appealing to a newbie which is entirely wrong to the site meta as a whole when you KNOW better (what I saw you doing) is not.

Actually I have a question to ask mastin. I actually am dumb founded at how you use wifom and how I never hammer lucky to suggest I am 100% scum. I actually really find that argument super scummy and illogical. I would like to know your logic behind the if possible :p

Short answer: It was a scum-motivated argument.

Long answer: The idea behind making the argument that you not-hammering made you scum is that you were going for the long-play, thinking ahead as scum and not getting caught up in the short-term. Scum

should

be planning for lylo, even before day one. If you read the mafia QT, you'd have seen Jason and I both strategizing ahead--not just for Day One, but also for up to day three, before the game had even begun. That's what a smart scum player does: plan for lylo, well before lylo.

The argument, therefore, was basically that you-as-scum passed up on the short-term gain of lynching a town-Lucky, in order to go for the long-term gain of towncred from having not lynched Lucky and not heavily associating yourself with Jason. In other words, planning not only for a 5p lylo situation, but also a hypothetical 3p lylo where Jason gets lynched on D3 or D2 (as he was). So the theory had merit. A smart scum player in your slot would have done something similar, and as I remarked in the scum QT, it's what I

should

have done (not switching from Lucky).

In practice, most scum are too stupid to think that far ahead. If you meet a player like CrashTextDummie, sure, that might work, but against your average scummer, they're going to go for the immediate reward rather than the long-term reward. So while in theory it's a solid argument, in practice it's at-best paranoid town, or in my case (at-worst), scum trying to induce paranoia.
Hence my short answer.

[mastin2]

By the way, Triton, overnight, I made a realization, so you need a new IC lesson:

Remember my advice about the difference between confidence and arrogance? You need that. Desperately. If it were just in-game, you can argue that you just crossed the line a little into arrogance when you meant to be only confidence. But it's not just in the game. Compare your post-game writeup to mine; there's a critical difference:
Yours has an ego attached to it. You might not read into it that tone, but it was present to me when reading it. The first time I read it, I just kinda shrugged it off; there wasn't anything harmful in it as far as I could see.

...But it

did

have that sort-of condescending attitude around it, whether you realized it or not. So it's not just something in-game; it's a problem you're beginning to have out-of-game as well. And trust me...this WILL destroy you. Yes, there are players who have made a living off of being arrogant pricks (Jason [no offense meant, mate ] is probably a good example from this game--there are people worse than him, but you can get an idea of what they're like based off of Jason), who've developed a reputation for their Higher-Than-Thou attitude, but I can tell you here and now...that path is an incredibly destructive one to walk.

While under the current site meta, there are plenty of people who'll allow that attitude to slide, MS.net is slowly,

slowly

moving away from that direction (this is a good thing!) and back in the direction where more, so-to-speak, rational players are having influence. Shouting arrogantly has been a great way to make yourself look better and to take control, but it's slowly losing its favor and is being increasingly condemned. (Not to mention, it has that same short-term/long-term thing attached. In the short-term, strong-arming your way through the game will make you look good. In the long-term, NOT strong-arming your way through the game will make you look good, and the people who had been strongarming lynches get themselves lynched. There's always exceptions, of course, but this IS the general trend in games. So while you'll look good in the early-game, the longer the game goes, the higher your chance is of being lynched, and as either alignment, that's bad.)

You might not think you're going down that path, but all the warning signs are there. Including, mind you, the "I-told-you-so" attitude. Trust me, I've been there. I've done that. My winrate plummeted when I let the power get to my head, and let the arrogance overcome my sense of rationality. It nearly caused me to leave the site because of how much I was harming games I was in. You might not think that you'll be that way, but I can tell you: neither did I, and yet, there I was, destroying games because my arrogance let me refuse to listen to common sense, and I lost games where I could have won.

So, take it from a person with first-hand experience: you need to be humble. You've got a generally-good approach, you've got a generally-good sense of gut. It served you well this game, and your "I-told-you-so" is not unjustified as a result. But trust me. You NEED to be careful. You're not a scumhunting god. You will make mistakes, and they WILL be damaging. The difference between them being minorly-damaging (easily healed; localized screwups--these last AT WORST a game, and at best, less than a single gameday) and majorly-damaging is often whether you recognize that the mistakes are your doing.

This is particularly true if you want to take up teaching. You've clearly got enough experience to IC, and I picked up the vibe that you might be doing so soon. But notice my approach? It's generally close to the approach most successful ICs will take. Whatever attitude they displayed in game, when it comes to the post-game, they instantly change their tune and go into teaching mode--not lecturing. Teaching. What each player did well and what they can improve on, along with a detailed map of your own actions in the game and an explanation for why YOU did what you did. (Particularly important for a scum IC, but just as important to do as a town IC.)

Your post-game notes whether you meant them to be or not sound more like a lecture than a teach. They're more of a chastisement than an effort to make players better. I'm fairly certain that was not your intent. But that's what they came across as--and as I said...you don't want that. Not as a player, and certainly not as a teacher. Which, again, is why I advocate being humble. There's a fine line between being humble and being doubtful (just as there's a fine line between being confident and being arrogant), but given the choice, I'll choose to be seen as doubtful over being seen as arrogant. Try to find that balance, triton, because right now...you don't have it. You'll be fine in the short-term if you don't change anything, but trust me, it WILL destroy you in the long-term. Especially as the site meta continues to shift against that style of play.

So, stop the arrogance now when it's still small, before it gets out-of-hand and becomes far worse.

[Lucky2u]

No offense to ucrit, he is my buddy from this game after all, but I kind of agree with mastin.

[uctriton00]

I did take that into account.

Mastin's and Jason's post game comments are all actual advice that make sense. My comments are post game flavor fluff that offer no real substance other than getting a chuckle.

It's like in elementary school, with your regular teacher and the substitute teacher.

An IC's comments are the actual teacher, who cares about their students, and wants everyone to be better, and will offer up any knowledge they have. However, they take their teaching seriously and want people to be better at it. They put in the good and the bad and offer up the critical comments.

But I'm the fun substitute who comes in, plays music during class, and tells a lot of jokes and makes learning fun. But for all that, in the end, you don't really end up learning all that much because it's all about show and making people feel good about themselves. You realize you learned a lot more from your original teacher.

So I agree with mastin and I agree with lucky who agrees with mastin.

\m/

[uctriton00]

So out of good faith, I will demonstrate that if needed, I can offer real comments.

Spoiler: real talk

Like everyone has already said, here are my favorite things from my experiences, including ones in this game.

1.

Being Town is a Team game
- Every lynch requires more than one person. No way around it. You need to convince other people that you're right.
Me trying to lynch Mastin? That was a solo effort. I laid out my case, spelled it out, and answered any questions Mastin had to try to break it down. I basically sat back and waited for everyone to sheep me, but nobody did.
The Jason lynch? That was a team effort. Mattel made the investigation, and Lucky convinced me that if I make the leap of faith and I happen to be wrong, I can lynch him the next day.
That's the difference in "getting things done" in Mafia.

2.

Presentation is everything
- I'm going to go ahead and guess on mattel's part, but I think mattel investigated Jason because he was too hard to read. As in, he was pretty null. There was no alignment tell. So thus, he was investigated.
Why did we not investigate Nul? Well, he was a universal town read and he made everyone feel comfortable around it.
Why did I never really suspect enomis or Linxie? Because enomis presented himself in a town manner. Linxie's slot also presented itself in a town manner.
Why did I hammer Lucky? Because Lucky presented himself as someone who wasn't really scumhunting.

3.

Be aware of WIFOM in night kills
- WIFOM will get you no matter what, and Mastin's kill of me was an example of WIFOM, and even in the dead topic I felt like switching to enomis because of WIFOM.
Suppose enomis was scum. Town Linxie could have said "hey enomis just killed of triton in order to frame mastin!".
Or suppose I was in 3PL, with me mastin and enomis. Suppose enomis started off by voting mastin, saying that "ok, it wasn't lucky, you were right, it was mastin, let's get him". I would have said "finally, we can do what I want", and then I would stop and think "maybe I'm being set up" and i would have wrongly killed enomis.
There is always WIFOM everywhere you go, so you can never be too sure about reading why people are killed at night.

Let me know if there is anything you want to expatiate on.

[uctriton00]

Contrasting what "looks townie" and what "looks scummy"

I will contrast Nul and Lucky this game, as I cite them as being on the opposite spectrum of how they were perceived this game.

Nul presided evidence for his cases, and then asked other people what they thought. In effect, he wanted everyone to be talking, so everyone could engage in a large group discussion. The more people talk, the more you get info on what wavelengths people are going on, and in addition, insight on what else you could possibly be missing. Info is info. And as my experience as scum, being forced to talk is difficult since you have to constantly keep up a charade, and the more people point fingers at you, the harder it gets. So going by Nul's actions, that is what made him town.

Lucky on the other hand didn't have much commentary on his votes or actions, and he cited that it's because people who talk a lot usually get lurked. That is actually true. It's often a scum strategy to get up and start posturing, because the lurkers will get scrutinized. And so Lucky your logic was, well if I start posturing, that means people could think I'm scum, so i'll do the opposite.

I understand your choice in not wanting to put your neck out there, and I don't fault it. The logic makes sense: don't do what scum do.

However, you can choose to approach it from the "pawn" perspective. As vanilla townies, we are, sadly, excellent bullet fodder. During the day, we try our best, we talk, and we do what Nul does and effectively scumhunt. Does that make you a target by scum at night AND possible paranoid townies who think you're posturing? Of course. But overall, isn't it better that vanillas go down instead of PRs? "Better me than my more powerful teammate". The whole issue of morality comes in. Are we willing to accept posthumous victories? I mean it's no fun; we wait like 2 months to sign up, and then we get to play for one game day and then we have to queue up again, and probably draw another VT role (I had a streak of like 5 straight VTs).

I actually have a shameful secret too: my aggressiveness gets me to LYLO a lot because it puts me in control of my own destiny, since scum take me to the end. Do I put my trust in my teammates to win the game for me? Or would I rather grab the bat and be either the hero or the goat? It's pretty exciting to be in that position. It's not "fun" dying early in a game. If anyone is a fan of Survivor, this is the Russell Hantz approach.

So the "too long, didn't read" version of this would be:
It's better to be talking, than lurking. Information is power to the town.

[uctriton00]

P.S. what did Mattel do to get modkilled?

[JasonWazza]

Jason [no offense meant, mate ] is probably a good example from this game--there are people worse than him, but you can get an idea of what they're like based off of Jason

That's not necessarily the intent, but i can understand that's how it comes off, i'm only an ass if someone Appears scummy, or is being really really stupid, though it's not at all the intent.

P.S. what did Mattel do to get modkilled?

I think Mastin brought it up, in that Mattel PM'd Mastin that he had got him (in my mind it's a minor offense but oh well and i also think that mattel shouldn't have got his result cause he was dead but that's a mod difference.)

[uctriton00]

I was emotionally invested in this game (which is amazing because I get emotionally invested in a lot of my town games, which is a flaw in itself I've come to realize),

but it's finally sunk in that the game is over and this was actually a pretty exciting game. One of my favorite ones on Mafiascum.

Day 1 - a self hammer of a PR
Night 1 - a universal townie read got killed
Day 2 - two claims
Twilight 2 - a rollercoaster
Night 2 - losing the second PR
Day 3 - an et tu brute kill
Night 3 - a WIFOM kill
Day 4 - a full length LYLO

[mastin2]

Fully agreed, triton! It was a blast to be in.

Speaking of this game, what I wrote here was inspired by this game, and it might be worth reading if you want more than what I gave in my IC teachings.

[mattel]

I had fun. I just don't like how long it takes .

[RadiantCowbells]

I'll give you my drunk answer because it's probably the honest one.

I don't care. I was 100% positive of Jason scum. If town didn't want to follow that lead, they can fucking lose. I don't selfvote as doctor lightly, and I'm not going to argue with a bunch of people fool enough to lynch their doc while alive. Blame the town for voting me up.

[RadiantCowbells]

Where I come from, the people who lynch town are considered the bad ones, not the town who got lynched by their fool comrades. That's one aspect of mafiascum I can't understand.

[JasonWazza]

RC, YOU LYNCHED YOURSELF

No one but you shoulders the blame for your lynch.

[JasonWazza]

Heres how the game works.

If someone quickhammers without intent/claim, they entirely shoulder the blame for the lynch because no-one else gave permission for the lynch. (THIS IS YOU RC)
If someone claims intent, gets a claim, etc. THEN the wagon is responsible because they let the intent go through, not all people will be on the wagon intent to lynch.

Had someone claimed intent you would have claimed, then we lynch someone else, and you die N1 THIS WAS THE PREFERABLE SOLUTION FOR TOWN.
Instead you choose to fuck town up the ass and hammer yourself.

[JasonWazza]

P.S: the single stupidest thing this town did was the fucking quickhammers.

Had i been cop (not at all unlikely) RC hammered herself to try and lynch the cop, Ucrit hammered the cop, and we are in the worst LYLO i have ever seen.

[RadiantCowbells]

You say that like they weren't fucktards stupid enough to vote up the doctor.

[enomis]

You did not even claim doc bro. Like I didnt even knew you were doc until you self claimed after the hammer.

[JasonWazza]

You say that like they weren't fucktards stupid enough to vote up the doctor.

You say that like you weren't the fucktard that quickhammered yourself as doc.

[uctriton00]

You did not even claim doc bro.

[Lucky2u]

Let's calm it down people, it's a game. We are here to have fun and such.