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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:40 am
by podoboq
In post 739, northsidegal wrote:The only thing binding me to this game (beyond a general aversion to replacing out) is a strong desire to prove you all wrong, and that isn't healthy, good for the game, and I don't think it would be particularly enjoyable for anyone.

Suffice it to say, if you think me doing this is scum-indicative, you must think very poorly of me as a person and as a mafia player. The thought that I would leave this game, the mod and my scumbuddy behind just because I rolled scum (despite the fact that I made an effort and made it to endgame in TAZ, a game with
RC
in it) is actually just very insulting.

Last post.
Spoiler: not related to this game
Because of this replace out, and other replace outs like it, I'm changing a rule in all my future games. You can now only replace out via PM to the mod. Any posts made after you intend to replace should not effect the game in any way. A simple "see you guys after the game," is fine, but that's about it. You don't get to explain why you're leaving, or yell at town on your way out. I get the need to explain yourself, and the frustration that comes from people potentially misunderstanding your intentions. It doesn't matter. Once you've decided to replace out, you are no longer playing this game. You don't get to play it any more. You've sacrificed that right. Continuing to post in here after choosing to replace is as problematic as me going into a game I'm not playing and commenting on who I think is scum. I'm tired of seeing people replace out like this. Please leave.


Sorry, I felt like I needed to post that. As for the game, while NSG's posts weren't, like, good, there was too little for me actually have her is anything other than null. I'd not going to read this replace as AI. I'll wait for Meph to catch up and everything.

Aristophanes, we've played together before, right?

UNVOTE:

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:46 am
by podoboq
In post 849, Nibbui wrote:thanks.

what's the towniest thing in your ISO considering your scum range by the way?
This is hard to answer. Not because I don't want to diagnose my scum and town games openly. I honestly don't care about that. I just don't know how to self diagnose here.

I don't feel like anything I've done in any of my town games is impossible in my scum games. It's part of why I think I'm good at towntelling as scum, and I think I'm pretty often scumread in my town games.

I pointed to Flavor Mafia earlier because I think it's the most stark difference. In Flavor Mafia, I was scum, and when I fell behind, I stayed behind. I'm not expecting to stay behind in this game, because now I don't have the extra pressure of being scum. Maybe the player list being half the size will be more of a factor though.

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:47 am
by Nibbui
I think NSG just was ticked off by me scum leaning her replace out. There's some history for that and I understand her.

By the way podoboq, if anything on you changed personally during your break, in what would you say you changed? (this is a bit personal so it's fine if you don't want to say something or don't want to answer at all).

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:50 am
by podoboq
In post 852, Nibbui wrote:By the way podoboq, if anything on you changed personally during your break, in what would you say you changed? (this is a bit personal so it's fine if you don't want to say something or don't want to answer at all).
I got engaged, graduated college, and moved away from home. Now I'm working a full time, salary, desk job. I like to think all of this has made me mature a bit. Now whether or not that changes how I play, I'm not sure. Gotta see how it shakes out a bit.

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:59 am
by Nibbui
Thanks a lot for answering. I hope you're town here because you seem like a nice guy.

I feel I'm already feeling a team in particular but I'll be skeptical and do my work before tunneling.

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:59 am
by podoboq
In post 852, Nibbui wrote:I think NSG just was ticked off by me scum leaning her replace out. There's some history for that and I understand her.
If that's meant as an excuse for her continuing to post after intending to replace, it doesn't change how I feel about it. Just because she really wanted to do it, doesn't mean it's acceptable. Whatever the reason. If you want to talk about the game, you have to play the game. That's the cost of entry.

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:02 am
by podoboq
In post 854, Nibbui wrote:I hope you're town here because you seem like a nice guy.
That's really sweet. Thanks! I hope you're town too.

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 4:34 am
by Pink Ball
In post 856, podoboq wrote:
In post 854, Nibbui wrote:I hope you're town here because you seem like a nice guy.
That's really sweet. Thanks! I hope you're town too.
Please the other spoiler tag for phone posters :)

Nibbui are you thinking what I'm thinking?

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:29 am
by Nibbui
Maybe Perceptive Ball.

Is what you are thinking something that just popped up in your mind in the last pages and you weren't really expecting it?

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:09 am
by sheepsaysmeep
why does all of the fucking posting happen while im away

and fucking hydras

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:10 am
by sheepsaysmeep
hydra's opening is pretty meh

gun to my head w but it's mostly just meh

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:59 am
by Pink Ball
In post 858, Nibbui wrote:Maybe Perceptive Ball.

Is what you are thinking something that just popped up in your mind in the last pages and you weren't really expecting it?
As Sean Connery would say, yesh.

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:01 am
by Nibbui
Hmmm

reading games is tiring...

First game I'm trying to actually solve a game for real, I half tried it on Newbie 1970 but my approach was wrong.

I wonder how good my final d1 reads are going to be.

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:39 am
by Nibbui
I think that 5 days from now on I can give my final reads because I'll have done my homework on everyone until there

I'm shitposting mostly until then I guess

I might be getting addicted to sugar as a trivia fact, eating sugary food always help me get in the mood to be productive as weird as that sounds

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 7:46 am
by Nibbui
maybe 6 days actually.

6 days and half.

I'm not sure how much I'll be able to explain my reads though as there's things I'll want to save to myself

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:22 am
by the worst
In post 853, podoboq wrote:
In post 852, Nibbui wrote:By the way podoboq, if anything on you changed personally during your break, in what would you say you changed? (this is a bit personal so it's fine if you don't want to say something or don't want to answer at all).
I got engaged, graduated college, and moved away from home. Now I'm working a full time, salary, desk job. I like to think all of this has made me mature a bit. Now whether or not that changes how I play, I'm not sure. Gotta see how it shakes out a bit.
CONGRATULATIONS!!!!

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:28 am
by the worst
In post 863, Nibbui wrote:I think that 5 days from now on I can give my final reads because I'll have done my homework on everyone until there

I'm shitposting mostly until then I guess

I might be getting addicted to sugar as a trivia fact, eating sugary food always help me get in the mood to be productive as weird as that sounds
Tfw you're turning into L

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:31 am
by the worst
{tw}
{Nibbui}
{punk bill}
{skitter30}
{podoboq}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{mastina}
{infinitesoda}
{nancstophanes}

roughly here
we have one dimension of Nancy reads goodness (which she can also do as scum) - stay active so we can gauge her trajectory imo

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:39 am
by Nibbui
I'm quite surprised that podoboq is above sheep.

Why the need to drop sheep so much when you had a more consistent read on him since early?

Also, do you feel that podoboq is towny enough to be that high?

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 9:43 am
by the worst
i am to surprise <:

consistent read on sheep? i disagree, i had a couple of moments where I thought he town-told just a little but on reconsideration i don't think i was using very good tells + something else makes me want to scumread him

and yes

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:36 am
by mastina
Alright, am back. I think I'm calm enough to do this without ranting (especially since there's nothing in this game to my knowledge that'd tick me off), but alas. I regret to inform you that the whimsical feeling of messing around isn't with me right now--I actually feel like being completely serious right now, so gimme a sec, I'll be explaining what I was doing and then catch up on all the pages I've yet to read (which I think is like...30. :P).

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:50 am
by skitter30
In post 774, the worst wrote:I guess I see what you mean. it's probably like partially a tired/bad mood thing from me fwiw but like.... that's pretty wolfy and yelling at someone trying to read you just because you unvoted for them is like kinda bad faithy
honestly idk how much experience he has so like if he hasn't really played before i can kinda see him overreacting to a vote like that as either alignment

the things that people are objecting to wrt his play i'm not sure are actually ai; they could be newb-indicaitive tbh

==
In post 784, the worst wrote:we're gonna treat skitter like she's town until further notice
wait where did this come from?

==

also i can't really read nancy or ari so yeah

==
In post 790, Nibbui wrote:I'm actually troubled if I should or not do some work on skitter and you since you guys are saying that you will take a break from the site soon.

Hmmmm...what a question...
i mean i'm going to finish out this game irregardless of whether or not i decide to talk a break; that shouldn't stop you from trying to sort me?

==
In post 808, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:Yes, I’m townreading you here for that wall post.
why?

==
In post 832, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:Skitter’s probably town - lots of questioning and sorting.
!remind me

==

i'm basically null on mastina; i don't think she's done much ai tbh

==
In post 867, the worst wrote:{tw}
{Nibbui}
{punk bill}
{skitter30}
{podoboq}
{sheepsaysmeep}
{mastina}
{infinitesoda}
{nancstophanes}
i'm kinda confused by this readslist; i'm not sure how pink ball got that high up or sheep that low?

==

i don't really have anything intersting to say about nancy's posting; it just kinda is
yeah i don't really think much actually happened isnce i last posted tbh
podoboq is still town

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:08 am
by mastina
In post 114, mastina wrote:northsidegal
Pink Ball
Nibbui
InfiniteSoda
sheepsaysmeep
skitter30
podoboq
the worst
This was in fact a serious readslist, for a start--at the time that it was posted, I had read up to that point but pretty much everything past the first page, my eyes had glossed over, not really properly processing so much as just scanning, reading, and that was that. But I still had an
awareness
of all 113 prior posts. Yet this was still made in the context of, "from the first page, pretty much, supported loosely by the following".
In post 117, mastina wrote:northsidegal is, 100% of the time, always town. the worst is, 100% of the time, always scum.
Never doubt it.
When people quoted this, they seemed to forget the most important part of the quote--the bolded. The bolded phrase here, "never doubt it". Is never something said seriously--it's a deadpan snark. I was referring specifically to how, 100% of the time, no matter how much you may think she's scum, northsidegal is pretty much always 100% of the time actually town. With an undertone of how even when she is scum, she is
still
town.

It then figures that the same was true of the worst--I was referring to how, disproportionately, the worst draws scum role PMs time and time again, and is almost always the last anti-town that the town is suspicious of. Yet when he is town, people tend to still think he is scum, especially me, in part due to paranoia of knowing just how good his scumgame can be. So it can be said that, no matter how much you may think he's town, he's scum, 100% of the time, even if his role PM says otherwise.

...But
in spite of that
.

My vote was placed on the worst--if this were 100% a joke read, I'd not have done that, and kept it there.
In post 9, mastina wrote:
In post 5, the worst wrote:town!
VOTE: nibbui <3 <3 <3
You wish!
VOTE: the worst.
Scum!
My readslist, as I mentioned, was based primarily on the first page, albeit subsidized partially by the later pages. (You were meant to think it was entirely from the first page, and I'm surprised nobody made that callout--I was quoting something from the first page when I made the readslist and I
usually
read chronologically, so that means that USUALLY I am quoting as far as I've read. So I was EXPECTING someone to think I was on the first page, even though in the case of this game, I wasn't. But I digress. MY POINT WAS...)

The reason for these reads, if you look at it, is pretty self-evident:
In post 4, skitter30 wrote:first! hello all!
@mod: regular vla on fridays/saturdays :)

VOTE: nibbui
This was an entirely clinical RVS entrance--it is constructed, rather than organic. There was an overall lack of whimsy to it, and no real lighthearted touch. However, skitter is a more logical-type player, so while I wasn't fond of it, I recognized that because of who made the post, it wasn't as scum-indicative as I'd otherwise be inclined to think. This still earned skitter a low place on my readslist, below the nulline, but only just.
In post 7, podoboq wrote:
In post 3, schadd_ wrote:15 days because of Assorted Holiday
Thanks for that. Probably not gonna be here until Wednesday. As such, not gonna RVS. Happy holidays peeps. See you in a few days.
This felt worse than skitter's entrance because it was even more clinical, and yet lacked the personality justification. podoboq is not a player I'd associate with that more "constructed" style of play when town, and would be someone I'd actually describe as a northsidegal-type of inquisitive: pushing forward, but lighthearted when doing so. This just felt entirely too serious, and he felt the need to correct a typo by making a follow-through post. It showed that he was paying close enough attention to realize he made a mistake, and yet, I'm meant to believe he wasn't paying close enough attention to form any sort of RVS? That he wouldn't be around for a couple of days was no excuse; you can always remove an RVS vote when you get back if need be.
In post 11, Nibbui wrote:You shouldn't suddenly wagon me like that because I almost thought someone already had a Night 0 guilty on me! Please don't scare me like that, I get very tense as scum even for silly reasons.
Now excuse me, let me try to mislynch town huh
*I* might be this cheeky as a scumfuck, but Nibbui doesn't strike me as the type. This felt incredibly lighthearted and whimsical, to the point of being incredibly town. I felt that this was an incredibly natural way to respond to the page 1 pressure. A casual joke, one which felt entirely appropriate for the phase of the game at the time.

The analysis followthrough in is more or less the type I'd expect from Nibbui as well. It is precisely the strength I'd expect, it is precisely the method I'd expect, it is just as hard as I'd expect, just as light as I'd expect, just as casual as I'd expect. Entirely fluent, organic, natural analysis of the situation at hand, but not putting too much stock in it. I also loved this banter:
In post 17, Nibbui wrote:Pink Ball I know we planned for you to claim cop and have a guilty on me in the scum chat but it leave it to later really
maybe in day 2 or something
SPEAKING OF PINK BALL THO:
In post 16, Pink Ball wrote:
In post 11, Nibbui wrote:You shouldn't suddenly wagon me like that because I almost thought someone already had a Night 0 guilty on me!
I have a Night 0 guilty on this guy
This
instantly
made me think town. I didn't need to see the full interaction to make the conclusion; this alone was enough. That type of casual lighthearted fun was immensely town, but when paired with the actual vote, all the better--and there were in fact good reasons to vote the worst!
In post 5, the worst wrote:town!
VOTE: nibbui <3 <3 <3
I quoted this post because the worst's focus on being town felt overly forced, and his vote on Nibbui felt like it was uncreative and unoriginal. It was just kinda...there. was also forced, being a second-rate imitation of my patented town town? scum? scum style of introductory reads. felt like fluff that was meant to look like the worst was doing something when he wasn't, messing around under the illusion of content. I didn't think the worst would be scum with skitter due to , but I did think that interaction painted the worst as more likely to be scum and Nibbui as a beacon of township (especially in tandem with ). was also ridiculously forced as well; it was blatantly obvious that it was forcing scumminess to be there where there was none to be found, and yet I detected absolutely no hint of self-awareness about this: no glint of being whimsical about it, that he knew he was BSing.
In post 6, northsidegal wrote:oooooooo mystery!!!!
VOTE: nibbui
northsidegal's entrance
screamed
town. She was incredibly whimsical, unafraid to be the third vote on a wagon, and seemed like she was, genuinely, having a good time.

So that was the bulk of where I was coming from, though I still have more to address.

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:21 am
by mastina
In post 222, mastina wrote:
In post 188, skitter30 wrote:i do want to know why she's so certain you're scum tho because i'm not feeling it rn
I'm looking for Nibbui's response to this btw because Nibbui should have a mindset on it.
In post 190, Nibbui wrote:I think Mastina saying "TW is scum, 100% of the time here" is more alignment indicative than her whole attitude about explaining it or not tbh.
You are right!
That is one of the most alignment indicative things I have said.
You are also wrong!
You seemed to be reading my statement that "the worst is scum, 100% of the time" as an indicator of confidence--
it wasn't
.
You have a really big hint now what I'm getting at now, yes?
So given , you'll have a better idea of where this was coming from, especially when paired with:
In post 229, mastina wrote:
In post 117, mastina wrote:northsidegal is, 100% of the time, always town. the worst is, 100% of the time, always scum.
What I am specifically saying is that you need to reread this and think of it from a different perspective. This was not a statement that northsidegal is 100% town this game and that the worst is 100% scum this game.
Exact words are a favorite of mine; I mean exactly what I say.
(I did
not
say "100% town
this game
". I said "100% town", without specifying this game--thus, it was not a statement specific to this game.)
In post 241, mastina wrote:
In post 232, Nibbui wrote:wait is it just a pun? also are you perhaps cutely-badmouthing tw in a cute way? and it all being a reaction test?
At least one of these is on the right track!
In post 217, mastina wrote:You
just
saw me gamethrow by tunneling town and rapid-voting them in lylo and refusing to unvote when given the opportunity. That was in a game where I said I was not very invested.
But you're the one who literally invited me to play in this game--I am invested here. I
am
taking this game seriously.
Just...in my way.
^This one in particular. The game in question is Open 741: Red Flag, a game the worst and northsidegal also would share familiarity with.
Fun fact about that game is that I replaced into the worst's slot, thinking it was a scum slot.
But what I am particularly getting at is, in the game in question, I explained in great length my mindset on my approach to scumreads:
In post 1216, mastina wrote:
In post 1153, Blackjacks wrote:are these unusually confident reads for you, or do you always do this?
Complicated, not a yes-or-no question, and the only way to address it is to talk about non-game stuff. In short, answer's irrelevant to the game,
Spoiler: ...But if you insist on having an answer......
The answer is both yes, and no.
I wrote an article explaining half of the concept, and never finished my article explaining the other half.
The article I wrote explaining one half of this is Possibilities versus Probabilities.

In there, I basically explain how always, I am at war with myself.
At every single second.
I am imagining every single possible possibility.
You may think that's not possible; there's a ton of possibilities. With 4/10 players as scum, there are...how many unique combos? Is it as simple as 400? But no matter what the exact number, there's a lot.

So I couldn't possibly calculate them all, every second, right?

Except I do, and I do it even when not at the keyboard.
At work.
When eating.
When taking a shower.
At all times I think of the game, I am considering every single possible outcome.
For instance, at the most extreme: "What if every single one of my townreads were in fact the scumteam?"

I run through these, every second.
With every piece of new information, I run through them again. And again. And again.

Paranoia is crippling.
Doubt is overwhelming.
I never know what my reads are.
I can never truly be certain of them, because every time I feel good, suddenly, a new thought crops up and makes me think I could be wrong again.

Thus, the concept of probabilities.

I had to install a filter to function in games. Even if the correct combination is deemed a possibility rather than probability and thus tossed out, it was inherently a necessary move for me to be able to be of
any
use in a game. I weigh the scenarios, and put active thought into sorting them, off of what I know.

Some become less likely than others; others become more likely.

And while I can rarely if ever narrow in on the exact correct one, I can get closer to the correct one. Just by sifting through with the filter, discarding the ones which look unlikely and violate occam's razor, and accepting the ones which are simpler, make more sense, fit the facts better, and overall just "feel" like they're the case.

That is the balance of possibilities, and probabilities; the probabilities are the town player's friend, and the possibilities are the enemy.

But there's a second half to that, the unpublished result of this philosophy.

I have to have a way to both advance the gamestate, and yet be able to step back and reevaluate when necessary.

This is what I refer to as the "Theory of Pushing", in my notes, with the basic philosophy of...

"I need to push, and push HARD".

I push the probabilities I see, and push them hard. I keep pushing them, and pushing them--until I am no longer certain they are probabilities, until I think that instead of a probability, they are just a possibility. (Okay, small break from my ramble for a game note.)

This is game-relevant, because this is in the process of happening with RC; it hasn't fully shifted yet, but it's at the point where I am certainly uncertain of it being a probability at the very least.

...But back to being non-game-relevant...
This leads to the perception that I am arrogant, or at the very least, overconfident. I seemingly get confirmation bias, apparently--allegedly--never reevaluating, keeping my push going on the same targets.

But I am doing so for a very good reason. Because I am always, at every turn. Looking to be proven wrong. At every turn, I am reevaluating. And while most of the time, I reevaluate and go, "You know...I still feel the same way I did before.", sometimes, I really
do
shift my opinion.

I push, and push, and state things as absolutes even if they are not, because when I am doing so, I am advancing the gamestate, in my own unique way. The interactions I generate can be just as useful if not more, than my original push. Seeing how people react to my push can be just as valuable a thing as seeing how my target responds to the push.

It's altogether a way of trying to make the most out of uncertainty and doubt, of crippling bipolar shifts between extremes of doubt and certainty.

So yes, I am always confident, but no; I am never actually confident.
Yet the two don't contradict.
In the case of this game, I would say the best answer I have to give you is thus:
I am as sure as I can be,
given who I am
, that Gamma Emerald and AnonymousGhost are scum.
You won't get better than that in any game I ever play in.
I got the impression Nibbui had read that post--because Nibbui's invitation for me to play this game implied having been impressed with my process and wanting to see more.

This is also why I wanted the worst to explain--if he did know where I was coming from, he'd have been able to explain this; if he was just bullshitting, then he'd be wildly off-base.

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:23 am
by skitter30
In post 872, mastina wrote:This was an entirely clinical RVS entrance--it is constructed, rather than organic. There was an overall lack of whimsy to it, and no real lighthearted touch. However, skitter is a more logical-type player, so while I wasn't fond of it, I recognized that because of who made the post, it wasn't as scum-indicative as I'd otherwise be inclined to think. This still earned skitter a low place on my readslist, below the nulline, but only just.
Spoiler:
In post 14, skitter30 wrote:hello all!

@mod
: i have regular v/la on fridays and saturdays!

VOTE: irrel
In post 6, skitter30 wrote:Hello all!

@shadd:
im regularly vla on fridays and saturdays :)
gotcha!


I think i onky know 4 of you

HEAL: myself
Subject: Micro 820: Truth and Justice - Game Over
skitter30 wrote:hello!

VOTE: ausuka

also i am v/la on fridays and saturdays!
Subject: Mini 2025: Sneks & Noodles [Game Over]
skitter30 wrote:hi!!!

VOTE: implosion

@anonymous ghost:
i'm always v/la on fridays and saturdays

-
Noted! Thank you!

Ghost


let's guess my alignment in each these games! ^^^^^

also where does your impression of my game stem from?

==
In post 872, mastina wrote:My vote was placed on the worst--if this were 100% a joke read, I'd not have done that, and kept it there.
i mean that's why i initially thought it was a real read