Micro 991: Names on the List [game over!]

[Datisi]

Vote count 1.18

with 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-01-03 15:00:00).

execution

Amélie [3]:

Not_Mafia, Infinity 324, DkKoba

DkKoba [2]:

Gimli son of Glóin, Ahsoka

Lostego [1]:

Raya36

Ahsoka [1]:

Amélie

Not_Mafia [1]:

Lostego

Not Voting [1]:

clidd

game state

Doom Counter

is currently at

zero

.
~ With

3

Mafia alive, the Town will be endgamed once they are brought down to

3

members.

Previously published lists:
~ none

mod notes

~ beep

[Gimli son of Glóin]

that's a lovely tunnel and I hope you're town, infinity.

[Infinity 324]

What does that mean?

[Gimli son of Glóin]

it means I think you're reading the things I do as scummy instead of properly weighing in because you're stuck in a tunnel, or at least I hope so because that's what it looks like and I think it's towny. if you're scum shading me with this I'm gonna be very surprised.

[Lostego]

seems my thought on gimil/horsewoman and the dichotomy between them was relatively true. gimil is putting in a ton of extra credit in some places but here's where i stand in regards to it:

the act of it reads meaningless. if i were to further elaborate on my thought and why i placed gimil in [not town] it's that he seems indecisive in ways that do not align with a considerate townie, rather an objectionable scum who wants to effort but doesn't want to fully commit to a bad read, and in turn look worse because of it. it's a common angle, look like you know what you're doing so in turn people just agree and townread the effort. but the effort itself made by gimil lacks, and his pushes/reads all seem in a vacuum instead of ebbing and flowing. his push on koba for example is a testament of this, where he aggravated koba and got zero result out of it. he was just responding in such a way to appease koba and look reasonable while doing it. he seems very concerned about his image, very concerned about the ""right"" takes, so much that it is coming off to me as fake.

VOTE: gimil son of gloin

[Lostego]

i wasn't wowed by Ameile's catchup.

[Gimli son of Glóin]

interesting. let's see what everyone else thinks about these developments, I'm in no place to argue rn.

[Infinity 324]

it's a common angle, look like you know what you're doing so in turn people just agree and townread the effort. but the effort itself made by gimil lacks, and his pushes/reads all seem in a vacuum instead of ebbing and flowing

Yeah this is a good way of describing it.

Amelie's reads seemed a lot more nuanced here

[Raya36]

A lot of lostego's posts give me a lot of pause and IDK if it's because they're scum or just replaced in and are too unattached from the game to post properly, but there are things like asking ahsoka what is he 'hiding' and then #494 that just vibe strangely for me. there are good things as well so it's a mixed bag of meh.

I very much agree with this.

the thing about radja is that while they're pretty POE'd down as scum, ahsoka and everyone else that pointed so are right that this is the most LHF slot in the game and it makes a lot of sense that all of those strong pushes are just looking for a miselim. this is not how we should evaluate radja though, but rather on the likelyhood of them being scum without such associatives.

Radja felt fine to me when I did my iso of him so I'm a little worried this is the case. An inactive slot being targeted for a miselim.

Spoiler:

Vote count 1.01

with 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-01-03 15:00:00).

execution

Not_Mafia [2]:

Not_Mafia, Raya36

RedFlavor [1]:

DkKoba

Not Voting [6]:

clidd, Horsewoman, Ahsoka, volxen, RedFlavor, Radja

game state

Doom Counter

is currently at

zero

.
~ With

3

Mafia alive, the Town will be endgamed once they are brought down to

3

members.

Previously published lists:
~ none

mod notes

~ everyone has confirmed!

WAIT THERES 3 MAFIA???

#townslip gang

Hol up so mafia cant kill?

This felt really fake and I am concerned with other people's reactions to it because none of them looked even slightly surprised.

I never think much of townslips, especially obvious ones since they can so easily be faked

raya if u pocket me rn i promise not to push u today

Consider yourself pocketed

This interaction also feels fake. I'm considering scum theatre as a possibility here.

Koba and I have played a bunch in the past. Just early game fluff

Ok I bleieve your townslip

I hate this but it does feel more like a confused townie than scum theatre.

I definitely agree with this sentiment

who you choose to be friends with says a lot abt u.

motivation for this game coincidentally just dropped 90%.

lowkey can i just policy ur slot lmfao

I'm not sure entirely what this is about but I find this particularly rude.

Maybe other people just read the set-ups they're playing

Interesting. I agree with Not Mafia here. In my last game with him, I couldn't remember a single thing he said that I agreed with.

Hullo! Hope you're all having a great christmas.

It turns out that DKkoba's theory was wrong and redflavor's opened came from town. I liked the theory, I think it's towny that dk thought this long and hard about it, and part of me was just curious enough to know so I decided to replace in when the chance appeared.

This feels show-y. I took a brief glance at the game before I replaced in and was also curious what alignment Radja was but I wasn't planning to say it. This can go in my null for now.

I had a hard scumread on DK in our first game together, but after a while I learned that he plays

like that

in both alignments. Nothing he said in this game, so far, is ai in my opinion.

Please pay attention to pronouns.
What do you mean by "they play like that in both alignments"?
Specifically, what is "that"

Many of Gimli's reads in relation to DK seem like things that I could manufacture as scum to push someone, but I still believe that there is a scenario where he is not used to DK and, by default, interpreted his entire line of action as too weird to be town. I'm waiting to see which way my impression on him will go.

I agree with Gimli on Dkkoba.

last post of the day is a retraction of that ahsoka townlean after much consideration.

in fact I think her entrances in the thread are very bad with the flow of everything and point to scum.

will develop on this read tomorrow.

VOTE: ahsoka

I dislike the timing of this. It is right after clidd says Ashoka isn't obvtowning.

Reads look like this right now:

Town: Redflavor, Not Mafia
Null: Clidd, Gimli
Scum: Dkkoba, Raya36

Gimli and Ashoka's avatars are very similar and I apologize in advance if I start mixing them up.

DK is the type of person who is easily misunderstood if you don't like their post flow, and is a very sensitive slot in terms of what can be considered AI or not. I would say that none of their posts so far have given me the impression of "this is town!DK" or "this is scum!DK", which is why I am warning you (assuming you are town, of course ) to keep an open mind towards them.

What is ai for them then?

Koba can be very difficult to read due to their playstyle. I've played several games with them and still suck at it

gimli basically is approaching my slot in the worst faith possible, and anyone who is skeptical of me = towny.

thats how u can sum up their reading process.

this isnt how town approaches reads.
this is how scum discredits.


as soon as clidd pointed out that this is NAI for me > pivoted off.

this implies clidd is not aligned with gimli(like 50% sure, but gun to head would bet on not teammates rn)

clidd, as someone who plays at tables with myself in every game I play, I know that that is exactly what scum does in relation to my slot very often when they do not know me. Those that know me will more often attempt to pocket me as that's my weakness, or something in between if they're especially smart(pooky from coalition a few months ago comes to mind).

im a bit of a self aware player. I know what's scummy. I know whats towny. I know whats NAI. If you think you have caught me being scummy it better be because my reads are horseshit, not some NAI garbage like a townslip. Can I fake them? Yeah. But the reason I do is because i genuinely make them regularly as town(and sometimes i fake them as town too). Basically, even if I were scum here, I would have posted nearly the same exact thing. But it could have been slightly different depending on partners. If you really care about sorting me i have games where I show that lines like this are NAI, just read my history lmfao. I won't ever push meta that says im outside my scumrange, but I will push meta that what you're pushing is fully NAI.


anyways self meta over -

gimli have you considered its RVS and that people who know eachother and have played with eachother are liklier to have implicit bias towards eachother? I tend to push people early who annoy me or who i dislike. It's easier and more natural for me. I don't tunnel them forever unless I genuinely scumread them. This is probably also true of raya wrt the lighter tone towards me - we've played together and i've played in a game she's modded. We're chill and don't wanna go at eachothers throats like that.

I will say the ashoka vote isn't bad, that entrance is pretty flimsy. I'd rather figure out if this is just playstyle > scum being unsure and playing aloof. but lets play with it VOTE: ashoka

You say Gimli is approaching in terrible faith but then vote the person Gimli is voting. Why is that?
If I remembered correctly, Gimli is the one with the entrance I found show-y and Ashoka is the one that I can't remember anything about but both have similar avatars.

Radja is obvscum

I would like an explanation on this.

It reflects me as malicious, but not explicitly. It is a personal feeling.

I already made some posts of mech stuff (as scum) and even though it should be seen naturally as nai, I noticed that some players seemed to trust me more.

Here: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11811488

Not saying it is scummy, but in the context of Volxen, who is a very competent player as scum, it gave me a shiver.

I remember other example too about I correctly scumreading scum with the same feeling, but I need to take a look to see if I can find the game.

I have never seen someone make a mech post likely due to me not playing any complicated games like this one but I don't see how it would make anyone look more towny.

I'm a little worried this is setting up for pushing but I guess we'll see.

This is really a stretch. My scumread here stands.

I actually do agree with you that it was a bit of a stretch but the timing and almost exaggerated change in playstyle is hard to ignore. Koba still remains in my null pool due to this being a stretch though.

I don't know Volxen but I'll keep this in mind. That was a long explanation to say that's not who you'd push as scum. Self-meta like that isn't something I read into much. For all I know the reason you're potentially setting up a push on volxen instead of the other options you gave is because the other options include your partners.

Once again, what is this? I hate nearly every post she makes.

Can you tell me what's scummy about this post?

People play expecting town to have reads, but a townie shouldn't have strong reads at this point in the game. I will converse as I see fit, and these conversations will look good to look at in hindsight, which is why I converse.

I have given my thoughts on the stuff that stood out the most.

you're lockscum

I don't have a specific opinion on any one of Ashoka's posts but I definitely do not find them scummy.

I don't know Gimli, but I know you and Kkoba, so let's fight. Shall we?

I believe this push on me is fabricated. I believe there are town on my wagon currently, as I specifically do not think Gimli and Dkkoba are both scum voting me.

Clidd can be scum because they hard misrepped me right when momentum on me could have gone either way. They can be impatient town. Either way, this should end up amusing.

This I hate very much for how defensive it is. I am considering moving this down to scum read.

pedit: what

Off this alone, clidd is now my top townread.

?

oh hi flavor leaf

Who is that?

oh hi flavor leaf

ow about you let other people decide if that is a townslip? also fair to note DK was annoying my slot cause redflavor had like a small hint of being mechanically aware, and now they're looking like they don't know anything at all about the game they're playing. so how does dkkoba know there's a doomcounter and they don't know there's 3 mafia?

DK can correct me if I am wrong, but I interpreted their reasoning behind their early Red scumread as that, if Red rolled scum the doom counter would be fresher in his mind since it’s mentioned in the scum role PM, whereas the DC is not mentioned in the town role PM. I don’t think it’s a great reason to be scumreading your slot, but I believe that is where DK is coming from regarding the scumread of Red’s opener.

I don’t think it’s really far-fetched that town!DK could have been aware of the DC early on but glossed over the fact that there are three scum vs two scum. DK might have simply focused on the DC part of the setup information and overlooked the number of town vs scum if they were reading the setup primarily to learn about the DC mechanic.

The alternative explanation is that DK is scum and faked all of these “mistakes” by pretending to think that there were only two scum, and that scum could also nightkill. I don’t think this is as likely because DK’s progression that started with incorrect analysis (2 scum and nightkills) and ended with them realizing their mistakes seemed genuine to me.

Also, if you look back at the early interactions between Red and DK at the very beginning of the game (5, 6, 7), DK’s posts where they called Red’s opener scummy and said it was a somewhat serious vote came 2 minutes after Red’s “hardclaim DC” opener. Scum!DK couldn’t have possibly pre-planned that opener, unless they are scum with your slot. And if you are town and DK is scum, I don’t know that DK would be able to come up with that fake reasoning to scumread Red over his opener that quickly. Granted, DK only initially said that Red’s opener was scummy without explaining why, but they knew they would have to eventually explain why (and DK did as soon as Red replaced out), so I think that regardless of DK’s alignment they knew what the explanation of the scumread was going to be at the time that they called Red’s opener scummy. I think it’s more likely to be a genuine thought process coming from town!DK rather than a fake thought process coming from scum!DK, especially when the short time lapse is taken into account.

I'm going to have to ask you to explain exactly where you stand because this post is not faring well with my brain after an entire day of work.

volxen im feeling that vibe u fit into a very similar archaetype of player like I do

Volxen is a townread because Dkkoba posted this.

just so you won't think I'm picking on you, I just found all your posting to be scum indicative as I was catching up. I could be wrong of course.

There were a few instances where I had to get my glasses and make sure I was reading correctly but I disagree that all of it was bad.

VOTE: horsewoman come play

I townread this.

Radja is still obvscum

Dropped to scum read until I get an explanation for this.

So you don't have any strong read that you like to talk and that's ok because it's page 6 and I'm the villain for wanting to force something that theoretically you would not be able to deliver bc you're town and town don't have real reads early game. Is that it?

I don't like clidd twisting this to make it sound like he was being targeted. I never interpreted anything Ahsoka said as calling him a villain or even sussing him.
I'm going to move over here VOTE: clidd

pedit: I feel like a villain by the tone you approached the subject, but don't worry.

The tone felt fine to me too. Maybe just because it wasn't directed at me but I don't see how it made him feel like a villain.

I'm a little worried this is setting up for pushing but I guess we'll see.

I usually push players who are vocally weaker compared to me as scum, and Volxen doesn't fit that criteria.

Unless I have a specific context for pushing a player that is vocally difficult to eliminate (as I did on partition with ABR)

After our last game together -- where we were both town and I incorrectly scumread you early on in the game because I was suspicious of your "easy" townread on me -- I think it's plausible that scum!you would be aggressive towards my slot and push me in the beginning. You know I'm skeptical of people who townread me if I can't follow their reasoning. So if anything, I would expect scum!you to err on the side of being too aggressive towards my slot (rather than whiteknight me), at least initially, because you could always pull back later and have your read of me "evolve" into a townread if I started to become more widely townread.

I don't know if scum!you would necessarily deathtunnel me, but I am convinced after our last game together that scum!you would be very cautious with things like the timing of when you might fake a townread on me and your fake reasons for doing so, because you know that I would call you out on it if I felt that your reasons for townreading me were not genuine.

So I don't buy this narrative at all that scum!you would always start off by pushing the less vocal slots.

Then this further supports my point earlier that clidd might be setting up a push.

I hate Raya's posting way too much. Every post looks so scummy. This is my top scum read.

Can you also tell me what you found scummy about this post

An example of this type of impression is this post (

town!volxen

):

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12060913

I can feel it when Volxen presents a line of reasoning that I look at and think ''gee, this analysis is super towny, I think I would think the same if we switch places''.

Unlike this, for example (

scum!volxen

):

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11618440

Where I can smell superficiality 1 km away.

It seems to me that you were the opposite alignment both times. If that is true, I am hesitant to believe this analysis.

But hopefully, we are in a reality where everything is flowing as I expected and my reads on the slots are going well.

This sounds a little self conscious.

regardless of clidd's alignment, raya is my first locktown

Why?

regardless of clidd's alignment, raya is my first locktown

I cc

Why?

(Mixed up who replaced into which slot)

I feel like this comes from town more than scum. I'm going to lift this to null.

horsewoman is avoiding this thread for some reason?? also who are they cause i suddenly saw them post in a certain thread that i have never seen them post in!!! im suspicious of u in the context of site user not necessarily in the context of being scum

Is there a difference?

Hullo! I wish you all a great sunday ahead.

I'm not really following what Raya and clidd are arguing about.

Gimli's "regardless of clidd's alignment, Raya is locktown" seems really weird to me. Why would a clidd flip not make you reconsider your read?

Maybe if you understood their argument you'd understand why I'm so hard in leaning raya town. It does appear to me that raya, volxen and clidd are playing something of a game of their own, with all that combined meta and wits between the 3 of them. Raya caught clidd being too hasty in townreading volxen for something volxen did that isn't supposed to be read as towny, and I think the push in that direction was too nuanced to ever come from scum. Even if clidd is town, that doesn't diminish the towniness in raya's thought process.

Speaking of which, I was a little uneasy with clidd's strong TR of me, because my TR of clidd was weaking at that point and I think he noticed it (given I was open about strong townreading raya), and I felt that maybe clidd decided to try to maintain himself on my good side by pocketing me. I'm not sure my posts were towny enough to be townread that strongly.

I absolutely hated the push on clidd. It looked very slimy. I don't think past experience with a player justifies nasty pushes like that.

Ahsoka seems like a bit of an oddball type of player, and as an oddball myself I sympathize with how hard it is sometimes to make yourself understood. That is to say I might have been too hasty in identifying the oddity of her posting as scummy, and a post such as this appears to have layers of genuine solvey thought processes. It's not a strong read but I've been liking the way she responded to all the pressure.

This switched too fast but I still think it's a towny thought process. I think I'm going to officially move Gimli up to a townread.

did a re-read on the entire thing.

clidd is a stronger townlean now than before the re-read. I think what bothers me the most about him is townreading volxen based off nothing, then trying to act smart about it. I'm also townreading ahsoka now. I think the way she developed her posting in thread was very natural and the way she responded to pressure was good. it's not much but I gotta work with this townpool for now <raya, ahsoka, clidd>.

if I squint real hard, I can see something towny about radja. NM did nothing either way.

that leaves me with volxen, dkkoba and horsewoman. volxen's wall defending dkkoba's tripping over themselves at the beginning of d1 and then dkkoba going 'i feel naked uwu' and then defending volxen when no one was pushing him are all suspicious to me. + no one pushed horsewoman yet, someone who was just here to complain about a game having 6 pages 36 hours into it. if she was town there'd be a wagon already.

Volxen was dropped to a null once my scum read on dkkoba faded out.
I agree with the clidd townread.
Ahsoka is a null for me for now. I've wavered in between townread and null for them so I think the townread is reasonable.
Raya I disagree with entirely. She hasn't posted a single post that I haven't felt was extremely scummy.

horsewoman is avoiding this thread for some reason?? also who are they cause i suddenly saw them post in a certain thread that i have never seen them post in!!! im suspicious of u in the context of site user not necessarily in the context of being scum

new user posts in thread for first time. absolutely shocking. i should have just used quantum time travel to post in a thread before having posted in it for the first time.

Like come on man, bring the game into the game, bring your paranoid crap into the admins DMs not here.

This level of anger and frustration doesn't feel fake. I'm going to call it town.

I mean obviously this is forced and ridiculous (doing actual game-related catchup now)

This can be my new top townread.

This, however, is a relatively lazy read from Gimli. Just finished a game with him (my first game onsite so don't expect any other meta from me) where he was scum and he was universally townread and really competent. So he's someone I want to have my eye on throughout this one.

I'm honestly unsure what I think of Gimli currently. His entrance made me think scum but after that mostly everything was null or townread material. I can't remember most of his posts also. I can only think of off the top of my head one readslist that I agreed with except for the Raya read.

Okay this reads list is so bad I'm joining this wagon

VOTE: Radja.

I'm caught up, it was super easy and fast because most of the 12 pages was dkkoba spewing nonsense. Although I don't mind making short multiposts, I think posting as much as koba is is kind of anti-town (at least on mafiascum, where games are soooooooo slow), so I would advise koba to cut that aspect out of his playstyle/this game.

Gimli's playing pretty differently than he did in our game together. And by that I mean worse. I think paradoxically that makes him more likely to be town here? He's producing less reads and less analysis but that might be because he's only producing genuine reads/analysis. Want to see more from him. Koba has made a lot of posts I disagree with and posts like 223 really rub me the wrong way. Radja's reads list is so atrocious I don't think it can come from anyone trying to solve/read the game. I'm kind of biased against koba because he's accused me (without evidence) of being an alt of a guy who was apparently banned for sexual harassment, and that's a really fucking uncool thing to do. So I've got personal animus there. Post 217 from clidd I really dislike, the thought process of 'I agree with him so he's town' is itself, really artificial. I liked ahsoka's posting a reasonable amount.

Now I'm having problems with this readslist.
Clidd is solid town. Occasionally I question it but overall, I'm pretty sure he's just town.
Gimli and Dkkoba are still nulls. I dont think I'm willing to give either a townread thinking back on that.
I think I was too quick to townread this and am dropping it to null now.

Radja/horsewoman/Gimli

Radja/horsewoman/Gimli

the way this is my exact GtH solve rn

This sort of interaction is the sort I'd usually say wouldn't be between two scum but I think it has a high chance of being so here. That's because the setup of 3 scum out of 9 heavily incentivizes the scum to buddy up and stick together, because if all 3 are going the same way they only need 2 town to join them. So basically I'm saying that bussing is incredibly unlikely and scum overtly allying is much more possible.

I don't think they are scum together.

I'm saying that close buddying up in this game is more likely to be scummy in this game than other games. You and N_M have closely buddied up, which in the context of this game, is scummy behaviour. Please don't immaturely attempt to own me.

Nevermind. I think this has to be town. Back to town reads.

Town: Clidd, Horsewoman
Null: Ahsoka, Gimli, Dkkoba, V-something
Scum: Raya, Not_Mafia

I'm halfway caught up with a full set of reads and a decent amount of confidence! This is it for tonight and I'll be back to read the rest tomorrow.

(I responded within the quote in bold)

[Ahsoka]

Lostego suddenly made me miss being on their wagon

[Amélie]

I'll catch up after work.

[DkKoba]

seems my thought on gimil/horsewoman and the dichotomy between them was relatively true. gimil is putting in a ton of extra credit in some places but here's where i stand in regards to it:

the act of it reads meaningless. if i were to further elaborate on my thought and why i placed gimil in [not town] it's that he seems indecisive in ways that do not align with a considerate townie, rather an objectionable scum who wants to effort but doesn't want to fully commit to a bad read, and in turn look worse because of it. it's a common angle, look like you know what you're doing so in turn people just agree and townread the effort. but the effort itself made by gimil lacks, and his pushes/reads all seem in a vacuum instead of ebbing and flowing. his push on koba for example is a testament of this, where he aggravated koba and got zero result out of it. he was just responding in such a way to appease koba and look reasonable while doing it. he seems very concerned about his image, very concerned about the ""right"" takes, so much that it is coming off to me as fake.

VOTE: gimil son of gloin

thats not at all what i gathered from interacting with gimli?

[Ahsoka]

VOTE: Lostego

[DkKoba]

VOTE: Lostego

[clidd]

Spoiler:

Vote count 1.01

with 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-01-03 15:00:00).

execution

Not_Mafia [2]:

Not_Mafia, Raya36

RedFlavor [1]:

DkKoba

Not Voting [6]:

clidd, Horsewoman, Ahsoka, volxen, RedFlavor, Radja

game state

Doom Counter

is currently at

zero

.
~ With

3

Mafia alive, the Town will be endgamed once they are brought down to

3

members.

Previously published lists:
~ none

mod notes

~ everyone has confirmed!

WAIT THERES 3 MAFIA???

#townslip gang

Hol up so mafia cant kill?

This felt really fake and I am concerned with other people's reactions to it because none of them looked even slightly surprised.

raya if u pocket me rn i promise not to push u today

Consider yourself pocketed

This interaction also feels fake. I'm considering scum theatre as a possibility here.

Ok I bleieve your townslip

I hate this but it does feel more like a confused townie than scum theatre.

who you choose to be friends with says a lot abt u.

motivation for this game coincidentally just dropped 90%.

lowkey can i just policy ur slot lmfao

I'm not sure entirely what this is about but I find this particularly rude.

Maybe other people just read the set-ups they're playing

Interesting. I agree with Not Mafia here. In my last game with him, I couldn't remember a single thing he said that I agreed with.

Hullo! Hope you're all having a great christmas.

It turns out that DKkoba's theory was wrong and redflavor's opened came from town. I liked the theory, I think it's towny that dk thought this long and hard about it, and part of me was just curious enough to know so I decided to replace in when the chance appeared.

This feels show-y. I took a brief glance at the game before I replaced in and was also curious what alignment Radja was but I wasn't planning to say it. This can go in my null for now.

I had a hard scumread on DK in our first game together, but after a while I learned that he plays

like that

in both alignments. Nothing he said in this game, so far, is ai in my opinion.

Please pay attention to pronouns.
What do you mean by "they play like that in both alignments"?
Specifically, what is "that"

Many of Gimli's reads in relation to DK seem like things that I could manufacture as scum to push someone, but I still believe that there is a scenario where he is not used to DK and, by default, interpreted his entire line of action as too weird to be town. I'm waiting to see which way my impression on him will go.

I agree with Gimli on Dkkoba.

last post of the day is a retraction of that ahsoka townlean after much consideration.

in fact I think her entrances in the thread are very bad with the flow of everything and point to scum.

will develop on this read tomorrow.

VOTE: ahsoka

I dislike the timing of this. It is right after clidd says Ashoka isn't obvtowning.

Reads look like this right now:

Town: Redflavor, Not Mafia
Null: Clidd, Gimli
Scum: Dkkoba, Raya36

Gimli and Ashoka's avatars are very similar and I apologize in advance if I start mixing them up.

DK is the type of person who is easily misunderstood if you don't like their post flow, and is a very sensitive slot in terms of what can be considered AI or not. I would say that none of their posts so far have given me the impression of "this is town!DK" or "this is scum!DK", which is why I am warning you (assuming you are town, of course ) to keep an open mind towards them.

What is ai for them then?

gimli basically is approaching my slot in the worst faith possible, and anyone who is skeptical of me = towny.

thats how u can sum up their reading process.

this isnt how town approaches reads.
this is how scum discredits.


as soon as clidd pointed out that this is NAI for me > pivoted off.

this implies clidd is not aligned with gimli(like 50% sure, but gun to head would bet on not teammates rn)

clidd, as someone who plays at tables with myself in every game I play, I know that that is exactly what scum does in relation to my slot very often when they do not know me. Those that know me will more often attempt to pocket me as that's my weakness, or something in between if they're especially smart(pooky from coalition a few months ago comes to mind).

im a bit of a self aware player. I know what's scummy. I know whats towny. I know whats NAI. If you think you have caught me being scummy it better be because my reads are horseshit, not some NAI garbage like a townslip. Can I fake them? Yeah. But the reason I do is because i genuinely make them regularly as town(and sometimes i fake them as town too). Basically, even if I were scum here, I would have posted nearly the same exact thing. But it could have been slightly different depending on partners. If you really care about sorting me i have games where I show that lines like this are NAI, just read my history lmfao. I won't ever push meta that says im outside my scumrange, but I will push meta that what you're pushing is fully NAI.


anyways self meta over -

gimli have you considered its RVS and that people who know eachother and have played with eachother are liklier to have implicit bias towards eachother? I tend to push people early who annoy me or who i dislike. It's easier and more natural for me. I don't tunnel them forever unless I genuinely scumread them. This is probably also true of raya wrt the lighter tone towards me - we've played together and i've played in a game she's modded. We're chill and don't wanna go at eachothers throats like that.

I will say the ashoka vote isn't bad, that entrance is pretty flimsy. I'd rather figure out if this is just playstyle > scum being unsure and playing aloof. but lets play with it VOTE: ashoka

You say Gimli is approaching in terrible faith but then vote the person Gimli is voting. Why is that?
If I remembered correctly, Gimli is the one with the entrance I found show-y and Ashoka is the one that I can't remember anything about but both have similar avatars.

Radja is obvscum

I would like an explanation on this.

It reflects me as malicious, but not explicitly. It is a personal feeling.

I already made some posts of mech stuff (as scum) and even though it should be seen naturally as nai, I noticed that some players seemed to trust me more.

Here: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11811488

Not saying it is scummy, but in the context of Volxen, who is a very competent player as scum, it gave me a shiver.

I remember other example too about I correctly scumreading scum with the same feeling, but I need to take a look to see if I can find the game.

I have never seen someone make a mech post likely due to me not playing any complicated games like this one but I don't see how it would make anyone look more towny.

I'm a little worried this is setting up for pushing but I guess we'll see.

This is really a stretch. My scumread here stands.

I don't know Volxen but I'll keep this in mind. That was a long explanation to say that's not who you'd push as scum. Self-meta like that isn't something I read into much. For all I know the reason you're potentially setting up a push on volxen instead of the other options you gave is because the other options include your partners.

Once again, what is this? I hate nearly every post she makes.

People play expecting town to have reads, but a townie shouldn't have strong reads at this point in the game. I will converse as I see fit, and these conversations will look good to look at in hindsight, which is why I converse.

I have given my thoughts on the stuff that stood out the most.

you're lockscum

I don't have a specific opinion on any one of Ashoka's posts but I definitely do not find them scummy.

I don't know Gimli, but I know you and Kkoba, so let's fight. Shall we?

I believe this push on me is fabricated. I believe there are town on my wagon currently, as I specifically do not think Gimli and Dkkoba are both scum voting me.

Clidd can be scum because they hard misrepped me right when momentum on me could have gone either way. They can be impatient town. Either way, this should end up amusing.

This I hate very much for how defensive it is. I am considering moving this down to scum read.

pedit: what

Off this alone, clidd is now my top townread.

oh hi flavor leaf

Who is that?

oh hi flavor leaf

ow about you let other people decide if that is a townslip? also fair to note DK was annoying my slot cause redflavor had like a small hint of being mechanically aware, and now they're looking like they don't know anything at all about the game they're playing. so how does dkkoba know there's a doomcounter and they don't know there's 3 mafia?

DK can correct me if I am wrong, but I interpreted their reasoning behind their early Red scumread as that, if Red rolled scum the doom counter would be fresher in his mind since it’s mentioned in the scum role PM, whereas the DC is not mentioned in the town role PM. I don’t think it’s a great reason to be scumreading your slot, but I believe that is where DK is coming from regarding the scumread of Red’s opener.

I don’t think it’s really far-fetched that town!DK could have been aware of the DC early on but glossed over the fact that there are three scum vs two scum. DK might have simply focused on the DC part of the setup information and overlooked the number of town vs scum if they were reading the setup primarily to learn about the DC mechanic.

The alternative explanation is that DK is scum and faked all of these “mistakes” by pretending to think that there were only two scum, and that scum could also nightkill. I don’t think this is as likely because DK’s progression that started with incorrect analysis (2 scum and nightkills) and ended with them realizing their mistakes seemed genuine to me.

Also, if you look back at the early interactions between Red and DK at the very beginning of the game (5, 6, 7), DK’s posts where they called Red’s opener scummy and said it was a somewhat serious vote came 2 minutes after Red’s “hardclaim DC” opener. Scum!DK couldn’t have possibly pre-planned that opener, unless they are scum with your slot. And if you are town and DK is scum, I don’t know that DK would be able to come up with that fake reasoning to scumread Red over his opener that quickly. Granted, DK only initially said that Red’s opener was scummy without explaining why, but they knew they would have to eventually explain why (and DK did as soon as Red replaced out), so I think that regardless of DK’s alignment they knew what the explanation of the scumread was going to be at the time that they called Red’s opener scummy. I think it’s more likely to be a genuine thought process coming from town!DK rather than a fake thought process coming from scum!DK, especially when the short time lapse is taken into account.

I'm going to have to ask you to explain exactly where you stand because this post is not faring well with my brain after an entire day of work.

volxen im feeling that vibe u fit into a very similar archaetype of player like I do

Volxen is a townread because Dkkoba posted this.

just so you won't think I'm picking on you, I just found all your posting to be scum indicative as I was catching up. I could be wrong of course.

There were a few instances where I had to get my glasses and make sure I was reading correctly but I disagree that all of it was bad.

VOTE: horsewoman come play

I townread this.

Radja is still obvscum

Dropped to scum read until I get an explanation for this.

So you don't have any strong read that you like to talk and that's ok because it's page 6 and I'm the villain for wanting to force something that theoretically you would not be able to deliver bc you're town and town don't have real reads early game. Is that it?

I don't like clidd twisting this to make it sound like he was being targeted. I never interpreted anything Ahsoka said as calling him a villain or even sussing him.
I'm going to move over here VOTE: clidd

pedit: I feel like a villain by the tone you approached the subject, but don't worry.

The tone felt fine to me too. Maybe just because it wasn't directed at me but I don't see how it made him feel like a villain.

I'm a little worried this is setting up for pushing but I guess we'll see.

I usually push players who are vocally weaker compared to me as scum, and Volxen doesn't fit that criteria.

Unless I have a specific context for pushing a player that is vocally difficult to eliminate (as I did on partition with ABR)

After our last game together -- where we were both town and I incorrectly scumread you early on in the game because I was suspicious of your "easy" townread on me -- I think it's plausible that scum!you would be aggressive towards my slot and push me in the beginning. You know I'm skeptical of people who townread me if I can't follow their reasoning. So if anything, I would expect scum!you to err on the side of being too aggressive towards my slot (rather than whiteknight me), at least initially, because you could always pull back later and have your read of me "evolve" into a townread if I started to become more widely townread.

I don't know if scum!you would necessarily deathtunnel me, but I am convinced after our last game together that scum!you would be very cautious with things like the timing of when you might fake a townread on me and your fake reasons for doing so, because you know that I would call you out on it if I felt that your reasons for townreading me were not genuine.

So I don't buy this narrative at all that scum!you would always start off by pushing the less vocal slots.

Then this further supports my point earlier that clidd might be setting up a push.

I hate Raya's posting way too much. Every post looks so scummy. This is my top scum read.

An example of this type of impression is this post (

town!volxen

):

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12060913

I can feel it when Volxen presents a line of reasoning that I look at and think ''gee, this analysis is super towny, I think I would think the same if we switch places''.

Unlike this, for example (

scum!volxen

):

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11618440

Where I can smell superficiality 1 km away.

It seems to me that you were the opposite alignment both times. If that is true, I am hesitant to believe this analysis.

But hopefully, we are in a reality where everything is flowing as I expected and my reads on the slots are going well.

This sounds a little self conscious.

regardless of clidd's alignment, raya is my first locktown

Why?

regardless of clidd's alignment, raya is my first locktown

I cc

Why?

(Mixed up who replaced into which slot)

I feel like this comes from town more than scum. I'm going to lift this to null.

horsewoman is avoiding this thread for some reason?? also who are they cause i suddenly saw them post in a certain thread that i have never seen them post in!!! im suspicious of u in the context of site user not necessarily in the context of being scum

Is there a difference?

Hullo! I wish you all a great sunday ahead.

I'm not really following what Raya and clidd are arguing about.

Gimli's "regardless of clidd's alignment, Raya is locktown" seems really weird to me. Why would a clidd flip not make you reconsider your read?

Maybe if you understood their argument you'd understand why I'm so hard in leaning raya town. It does appear to me that raya, volxen and clidd are playing something of a game of their own, with all that combined meta and wits between the 3 of them. Raya caught clidd being too hasty in townreading volxen for something volxen did that isn't supposed to be read as towny, and I think the push in that direction was too nuanced to ever come from scum. Even if clidd is town, that doesn't diminish the towniness in raya's thought process.

Speaking of which, I was a little uneasy with clidd's strong TR of me, because my TR of clidd was weaking at that point and I think he noticed it (given I was open about strong townreading raya), and I felt that maybe clidd decided to try to maintain himself on my good side by pocketing me. I'm not sure my posts were towny enough to be townread that strongly.

I absolutely hated the push on clidd. It looked very slimy. I don't think past experience with a player justifies nasty pushes like that.

Ahsoka seems like a bit of an oddball type of player, and as an oddball myself I sympathize with how hard it is sometimes to make yourself understood. That is to say I might have been too hasty in identifying the oddity of her posting as scummy, and a post such as this appears to have layers of genuine solvey thought processes. It's not a strong read but I've been liking the way she responded to all the pressure.

This switched too fast but I still think it's a towny thought process. I think I'm going to officially move Gimli up to a townread.

did a re-read on the entire thing.

clidd is a stronger townlean now than before the re-read. I think what bothers me the most about him is townreading volxen based off nothing, then trying to act smart about it. I'm also townreading ahsoka now. I think the way she developed her posting in thread was very natural and the way she responded to pressure was good. it's not much but I gotta work with this townpool for now <raya, ahsoka, clidd>.

if I squint real hard, I can see something towny about radja. NM did nothing either way.

that leaves me with volxen, dkkoba and horsewoman. volxen's wall defending dkkoba's tripping over themselves at the beginning of d1 and then dkkoba going 'i feel naked uwu' and then defending volxen when no one was pushing him are all suspicious to me. + no one pushed horsewoman yet, someone who was just here to complain about a game having 6 pages 36 hours into it. if she was town there'd be a wagon already.

Volxen was dropped to a null once my scum read on dkkoba faded out.
I agree with the clidd townread.
Ahsoka is a null for me for now. I've wavered in between townread and null for them so I think the townread is reasonable.
Raya I disagree with entirely. She hasn't posted a single post that I haven't felt was extremely scummy.

horsewoman is avoiding this thread for some reason?? also who are they cause i suddenly saw them post in a certain thread that i have never seen them post in!!! im suspicious of u in the context of site user not necessarily in the context of being scum

new user posts in thread for first time. absolutely shocking. i should have just used quantum time travel to post in a thread before having posted in it for the first time.

Like come on man, bring the game into the game, bring your paranoid crap into the admins DMs not here.

This level of anger and frustration doesn't feel fake. I'm going to call it town.

I mean obviously this is forced and ridiculous (doing actual game-related catchup now)

This can be my new top townread.

This, however, is a relatively lazy read from Gimli. Just finished a game with him (my first game onsite so don't expect any other meta from me) where he was scum and he was universally townread and really competent. So he's someone I want to have my eye on throughout this one.

I'm honestly unsure what I think of Gimli currently. His entrance made me think scum but after that mostly everything was null or townread material. I can't remember most of his posts also. I can only think of off the top of my head one readslist that I agreed with except for the Raya read.

Okay this reads list is so bad I'm joining this wagon

VOTE: Radja.

I'm caught up, it was super easy and fast because most of the 12 pages was dkkoba spewing nonsense. Although I don't mind making short multiposts, I think posting as much as koba is is kind of anti-town (at least on mafiascum, where games are soooooooo slow), so I would advise koba to cut that aspect out of his playstyle/this game.

Gimli's playing pretty differently than he did in our game together. And by that I mean worse. I think paradoxically that makes him more likely to be town here? He's producing less reads and less analysis but that might be because he's only producing genuine reads/analysis. Want to see more from him. Koba has made a lot of posts I disagree with and posts like 223 really rub me the wrong way. Radja's reads list is so atrocious I don't think it can come from anyone trying to solve/read the game. I'm kind of biased against koba because he's accused me (without evidence) of being an alt of a guy who was apparently banned for sexual harassment, and that's a really fucking uncool thing to do. So I've got personal animus there. Post 217 from clidd I really dislike, the thought process of 'I agree with him so he's town' is itself, really artificial. I liked ahsoka's posting a reasonable amount.

Now I'm having problems with this readslist.
Clidd is solid town. Occasionally I question it but overall, I'm pretty sure he's just town.
Gimli and Dkkoba are still nulls. I dont think I'm willing to give either a townread thinking back on that.
I think I was too quick to townread this and am dropping it to null now.

Radja/horsewoman/Gimli

Radja/horsewoman/Gimli

the way this is my exact GtH solve rn

This sort of interaction is the sort I'd usually say wouldn't be between two scum but I think it has a high chance of being so here. That's because the setup of 3 scum out of 9 heavily incentivizes the scum to buddy up and stick together, because if all 3 are going the same way they only need 2 town to join them. So basically I'm saying that bussing is incredibly unlikely and scum overtly allying is much more possible.

I don't think they are scum together.

I'm saying that close buddying up in this game is more likely to be scummy in this game than other games. You and N_M have closely buddied up, which in the context of this game, is scummy behaviour. Please don't immaturely attempt to own me.

Nevermind. I think this has to be town. Back to town reads.

Town: Clidd, Horsewoman
Null: Ahsoka, Gimli, Dkkoba, V-something
Scum: Raya, Not_Mafia

I'm halfway caught up with a full set of reads and a decent amount of confidence! This is it for tonight and I'll be back to read the rest tomorrow.

[clidd]

seems my thought on gimil/horsewoman and the dichotomy between them was relatively true. gimil is putting in a ton of extra credit in some places but here's where i stand in regards to it:

the act of it reads meaningless. if i were to further elaborate on my thought and why i placed gimil in [not town] it's that he seems indecisive in ways that do not align with a considerate townie, rather an objectionable scum who wants to effort but doesn't want to fully commit to a bad read, and in turn look worse because of it. it's a common angle, look like you know what you're doing so in turn people just agree and townread the effort. but the effort itself made by gimil lacks, and his pushes/reads all seem in a vacuum instead of ebbing and flowing. his push on koba for example is a testament of this, where he aggravated koba and got zero result out of it. he was just responding in such a way to appease koba and look reasonable while doing it. he seems very concerned about his image, very concerned about the ""right"" takes, so much that it is coming off to me as fake.

VOTE: gimil son of gloin

[Gimli son of Glóin]

VOTE: lostego

that's E-1. I was going to ask lostego to claim and just realised town has a doom counter doesn't mean one of the town players is a doom counter lol. funny cause that's what redflavor openclaimed and was pushed for being 'mechanically aware'.

[Gimli son of Glóin]

I have no idea what 'makes sense' for scum!lostego here. did he think I could get rope? if he did, then maybe that points to both infinity and dkkoba being town. but even then, what are his team mates and how awkward would it be for them to turn and vote me here? If I try to think if this makes sense, my mind draws a blank. but the vote is pretty bad and I think he had several moments of flat out scummy posting, and there are angles to look at volxen's posting, for instance how unnecessary a lot of his points in defense of koba were, that makes me feel ok with this. also fair to note lostego never had one really towny moment, just some pings here and there that don't amount to much.

[Gimli son of Glóin]

clidd, I was hoping you'd expand a bit on why the gif reaction to amélie's catch up. I guess you're waiting for her to finish it before properly reacting to it but if you're not I'd like to know what's on your mind.

[Gimli son of Glóin]

if anyone wants to hammer, post intent first and let amélie finish her catch up, unless you want me to spend the entire day 2 trying to get you yeeted.

[Not_Mafia]

VOTE: lostego

[Datisi]

Vote count 1.final

with 9 votes in play, it took 5 to make a decision. day 1 ended.

execution

Lostego [5]:

Raya36, Ahsoka, DkKoba, Gimli son of Glóin, Not_Mafia

[HAMMER]

Amélie [1]:

Infinity 324

Ahsoka [1]:

Amélie

Gimli son of Glóin [1]:

Lostego

Not Voting [1]:

clidd

game state

Doom Counter

is currently at

zero

.
~ With

3

Mafia alive, the Town will be endgamed once they are brought down to

3

members.

Previously published lists:
~ none

mod notes

~ beep

[Datisi]

day one ends

Lostego

has been executed Day 1. He was a

Vanilla Townie

.

The sun sets, it is now Night 1. Sunrise in

(expired on 2021-01-04 15:20:00)

.

[Datisi]

day two starts

The sun rises. Datisi is seen holding an envelope.

It is now Day 2.

[Datisi]

Vote count 2.00

with 8 votes in play, it takes 5 to make a decision. day 2 ends in (expired on 2021-01-12 15:30:00).

execution

Publish the List! [0]:

Not Voting [8]:

DkKoba, clidd, Infinity 324, Ahsoka, Not_Mafia, Raya36, Gimli son of Glóin, Amélie

game state

Doom Counter

is currently at

zero

.
~ With

3

Mafia alive, the Town will be endgamed once they are brought down to

3

members.

Previously published lists:
~ none

mod notes

~ beep