In post 8688, Off The Hook wrote:Let’s break this down a little better.
Here’s my concept of a town!Bell thought process seeing Nancy ask for a veto:
“I respect Nancy’s reads enough that her going to this extent in Taly’s defense sways me”
OR
“I don’t think Nancy has the strong read rate on certain slots as she says, so I want to stick to my guns”
Here’s my concept of a scum!Bell thought process:
“I want to get Taly miselimmed, but I think giving up one miselim to push several more with less resistance would be of long-term value”
does it make more sense now?
~GE
Yes. This makes sense. Thank you for answering.
Spoiler:
Spoilering, because I don't think this helps either of us with eithers alignment. But I wanted to comment on the way this conversation spiraled into you getting frustrated thinking I was trying to misrep you. When, in actuality, I was trying to get you to make this exact post lol.
Like, I started out explicitly asking you to explain it more.
In post 8522, Lukewarm wrote:I am confused why this is phrased like he should be allowing Nancy more then one, and you are questioning why he is only giving her the one
In post 8531, Lukewarm wrote:
What about him saying he won't accept multiple vetos from Nancy makes you think scum over town?
Like, I was actively trying to get you to rephrase. Basically asking you to make this exact post. And you didn't. So, then I was having to just work off of what I had. And what I had was not worded so clearly
So, I started trying to say things like "from what you said, this is what I am able to gather, and it is not making sense to me."
To respond to the point that you made, now that I understand it.
I see what you are saying, but I feel like you missed a potential thought process from Bell, that was kind NAI frankly:
"I tried to push Taly yesterday, and the amount of posts and energy that Nancy threw into trying to keep Taly from being eliminated was overwhelming. She never even really explained the read outside of calling her "obvtown" based on Nancy's meta experience, but boy did she make a million posts about how obvtown Taly is. That was unpleasant to deal with. I don't really want to deal with that again. I am going to drop pushing Taly because of it, but Nancy only gets to pull this once and have me give up"
And that is a fully formed thought that can come from either alignment imo.
I think that there is a level of frustration on how Nancy tried to strong arm the thread that you are not seeing, and are instead making it about whether Bell trusts Nancy's reads or not.
Maybe you don't see that at all, because that was not something that frustrated you, and you also do trust Nancy's reads.
But that is how I saw Bell's offer to accept 1 Veto, and it may even be wrong, but seeing it from the POV of someone who was frustrated with the way nancy did that, and have no reason to trust nancy's reads over anyone else's, I can see that being a source for this offer.
In post 8651, RCEnigma wrote:That ending comes off more aggressive than I intend. I just think a lot of people are dumb telling and it’s grinding on me a bit.
So, it really confuses me to see you say that Bell, if town, should be willing to accept More Then One (>1) Veto for nancy, or conversely, you see scum motivation behind being unwilling to accept multiple from her.
I don't think town!Bell should have accepted a veto
I'm saying scum!Bell only accepting the 1 veto serves a long-term purpose of limiting DP's ability to interfere. No more, no less. I'm getting really fucking tired of you assclowns misrepresenting my arguments!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ik you think Bell is town but I feel like his play very well serves a possible scum agenda.
~GE
This wording implies, that not wanting "more than one veto" was the thing that you were questioning.
If that is not what you meant, then feel free to reword.
But all I can go off of is what you said.
And what you said was that not allowing "more than one veto" serves a scum agenda.
Let’s break this down a little better.
Here’s my concept of a town!Bell thought process seeing Nancy ask for a veto:
“I respect Nancy’s reads enough that her going to this extent in Taly’s defense sways me”
OR
“I don’t think Nancy has the strong read rate on certain slots as she says, so I want to stick to my guns”
Here’s my concept of a scum!Bell thought process:
“I want to get Taly miselimmed, but I think giving up one miselim to push several more with less resistance would be of long-term value”
So, it really confuses me to see you say that Bell, if town, should be willing to accept More Then One (>1) Veto for nancy, or conversely, you see scum motivation behind being unwilling to accept multiple from her.
I don't think town!Bell should have accepted a veto
I'm saying scum!Bell only accepting the 1 veto serves a long-term purpose of limiting DP's ability to interfere. No more, no less. I'm getting really fucking tired of you assclowns misrepresenting my arguments!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ik you think Bell is town but I feel like his play very well serves a possible scum agenda.
~GE
This wording implies, that not wanting "more than one veto" was the thing that you were questioning.
If that is not what you meant, then feel free to reword.
But all I can go off of is what you said.
And what you said was that not allowing "more than one veto" serves a scum agenda.
Let’s break this down a little better.
Here’s my concept of a town!Bell thought process seeing Nancy ask for a veto:
“I respect Nancy’s reads enough that her going to this extent in Taly’s defense sways me”
OR
“I don’t think Nancy has the strong read rate on certain slots as she says, so I want to stick to my guns”
Here’s my concept of a scum!Bell thought process:
“I want to get Taly miselimmed, but I think giving up one miselim to push several more with less resistance would be of long-term value”
does it make more sense now?
~GE
@Gamma, why would scum!Bell be that dead set on getting Taly miselimed? They’re only a neigbour. If you won’t listen to me on this, how about Pooky? He caught scum!Bell red handed in HappyFace and he’s totally mindmelding with me on town!Bell read.
Taly was pretty clear that his alignment becomes clearer late-game. If Taly is town, who gets harmed by that becoming obvious? Scum! Bell also had similar behavior toward Cephrir back when that wagon first happened. So I feel like there’s a not-good pattern of behavior from Bell.
~GE
Yeah Bell’s wrong on Taly but that doesn’t make him scum. What did you think about what I said about Pooky and me mindmelding on Bell!town?
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:48 pm
by Dancing Puppets
In post 8724, T-Bone wrote:Doing some quick work to organize my reads as they are floating around in my head. I'll explain these, but I also want to make time and explain my reads on the flipped players per the Professor's request earlier. Yesterday I just did willing to vote for/not willing to vote for, but I had a little more thought today about where I would put players.
Spoiler: Read Matrix
Lock Town
Rad
Lukewarm
Lean Town
Mathblade
Bell
JohnnyFarrar
Roden
Dwlee99
Null to Town
PookyTheMagicalBear
Dancing Puppets
BlueBloodedToffee
Null to Scum
Cat Scratch Fever
ProfessorDrapion
Malakittens
Lean Scum
Enchant
Off the Hook
Cytosine and Guanine
Totally do not get some of these reads dude but we’re mindmelding on Enchant anyway. Btw, how are claimed masons Roden and Dwlee only “lean town”?
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:50 pm
by Off The Hook
Did Pooky give reasoning for his Bell TR? There may be something I’m not considering.
Btw, acknowledged @Luke. Your idea for Bell’s thought process does seem plausible. Would like Bell to speak up and explain his own mindset tho.
In post 8706, Bell wrote:Are you taking your stress out on me OTH?
Please don't.
Honestly yeah a little, but it’s pent-up rage because the reading comprehension of this website’s player base is so notoriously shitty that I have to obsessively tag my posts so if my hydra partner isn’t feel it, I can still have it HOPEFULLY be transparent who posted what! That’s why my outburst at BBT was tagged, so while I don’t
think
anyone took his accusation based on that seriously, it’s a nonsense one because I basically have eternal paranoia whenever I’m hydraing.
~GE
I think that it is impractical to expect the players to put the extra effort in differentiating the actions of a hydra.
It wasn't just marci that voted Taly. It was your slot that voted for Taly. Your vote moved there too.
Same thought to DP tbh.
----
When Marci cast the vote, I feel like it *should* be safe to assume that when she did so, she was at least reasonably comfortable believing that you would be okay with it.
Dissonance happens. But that is a Hydra problem. Not a Rest of The Thread Problem imo.
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:51 pm
by T-Bone
In post 8231, ProfessorDrapion wrote:Can I ask your reasoning for all your town reads including the flip town please T-Bone.
For Ceph it was two things. First, I didn't like how his wagon got so large so early. It was partly RVS driven, but then a few players took it and made it real. The second and much more compelling part for me, is that Ceph made sense to me. You'll see it in basically all my town reads, but for better or worse I value players who either see the same things I do, or point out things that make sense to me. I formed my read on Ceph early because I thought he was seeing the game similar to me and some of his reads made sense to me. Not all of them, I didn't agree with him reading Math and Johnny as scum...but like those two players have made themselves pretty easy to scumread. Nothing about his gladiate struck me as not town. What happened as a result I regret, but no, I was not surprised he flipped town.
Dunn is easy. Dunn is a player I think when he's town has good reads, or if I disagree, articulates them in a way that tells me he's trying to solve. I'm not going to go back through my Oh God, 600+ ISO, so you'll have to trust that for Dunn (and Ceph) I called out things when I agreed with them (and the history is there if you don't want to trust). So, similar reasons to Ceph. I think for both players I found the things they were being voted for were not scummy.
Frog is someone I thought got piled on early and is a player who doesn't react well to pressure. I didn't agree with people scumreading him, and thus I moved him to lean town. Admittedly as you saw towards the end of the day his behavior during the gladiate had rubbed me the wrong way, and I was prepared going into this day phase to flip him if he didn't improve. Going into the night phase I was doubting my read here. I just posted my reads list, he was definitely moving into 'Null to Scum' territory to me by the end of the day.
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:52 pm
by T-Bone
In post 8729, Dancing Puppets wrote:Totally do not get some of these reads dude but we’re mindmelding on Enchant anyway. Btw, how are claimed masons Roden and Dwlee only “lean town”?
I mean, there's always a chance it's a gambit fake claim. Like, it's not something I'm worried about right now. I don't think either slot has earned "lock town" from me in the way that Rad and Luke have.
In post 8729, Dancing Puppets wrote:Totally do not get some of these reads dude but we’re mindmelding on Enchant anyway. Btw, how are claimed masons Roden and Dwlee only “lean town”?
I mean, there's always a chance it's a gambit fake claim. Like, it's not something I'm worried about right now. I don't think either slot has earned "lock town" from me in the way that Rad and Luke have.
Well I thought Dwlee seemed pretty town to me. I think I’m actually pretty decent at reading them. I correctly sr them in Pokemon and correctly tr them in PYP and NEP.
In post 8706, Bell wrote:Are you taking your stress out on me OTH?
Please don't.
Honestly yeah a little, but it’s pent-up rage because the reading comprehension of this website’s player base is so notoriously shitty that I have to obsessively tag my posts so if my hydra partner isn’t feel it, I can still have it HOPEFULLY be transparent who posted what! That’s why my outburst at BBT was tagged, so while I don’t
think
anyone took his accusation based on that seriously, it’s a nonsense one because I basically have eternal paranoia whenever I’m hydraing.
~GE
I think that it is impractical to expect the players to put the extra effort in differentiating the actions of a hydra.
It wasn't just marci that voted Taly. It was your slot that voted for Taly. Your vote moved there too.
Same thought to DP tbh.
----
When Marci cast the vote, I feel like it *should* be safe to assume that when she did so, she was at least reasonably comfortable believing that you would be okay with it.
Dissonance happens. But that is a Hydra problem. Not a Rest of The Thread Problem imo.
I hadn’t formed an opinion on Taly atp, and when I did later it was a strong TR. So I definitely feel like the vote should’ve been run by me, given the exceptional circumstance. The best course of action in retrospect would’ve been for her to tell me to quickly look over Taly and then make a move based on that.
I really hope going forward me and Marci can sync better since we never did so in Shakespeare UPick and that made things feel harder than they had to be imo.
~GE
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 2:58 pm
by T-Bone
In post 8231, ProfessorDrapion wrote:Can I ask your reasoning for all your town reads including the flip town please T-Bone.
I have Rad as lock town because he is the only player I feel is always trying to solve the game. We could learn a lot from him. He was trying to solve it yesterday when we were all kinda demoralized from the gladiate, and the way he handled himself there as well as still continuing to analyze and try to solve reveals a pro-town mindset imo. I would be genuinely and utterly shocked if he flipped red.
I have Luke there because I basically agree with him 90% of the time. Not only that, but I think he always has others perspectives in mind when pointing things out (something I try to do but don't always succeed). But yeah, this may be a blindspot of mine, but I've had a good read on the game thus far, and Luke makes sense to me as town. Outside chance I'm being pocketed, and bravo if that's the case, I just don't see Luke flipping scum.
In post 8729, Dancing Puppets wrote:Totally do not get some of these reads dude but we’re mindmelding on Enchant anyway. Btw, how are claimed masons Roden and Dwlee only “lean town”?
I mean, there's always a chance it's a gambit fake claim. Like, it's not something I'm worried about right now. I don't think either slot has earned "lock town" from me in the way that Rad and Luke have.
Well I thought Dwlee seemed pretty town to me. I think I’m actually pretty decent at reading them. I correctly sr them in Pokemon and correctly tr them in PYP and NEP.
Okay, but you should know by now that I base my reads just off the game we're playing. Dwlee just hasn't shown enough to me in this game that is alignment indicative imo and he would be firmly null to me without the mason claim.
In post 8706, Bell wrote:Are you taking your stress out on me OTH?
Please don't.
Honestly yeah a little, but it’s pent-up rage because the reading comprehension of this website’s player base is so notoriously shitty that I have to obsessively tag my posts so if my hydra partner isn’t feel it, I can still have it HOPEFULLY be transparent who posted what! That’s why my outburst at BBT was tagged, so while I don’t
think
anyone took his accusation based on that seriously, it’s a nonsense one because I basically have eternal paranoia whenever I’m hydraing.
~GE
I think that it is impractical to expect the players to put the extra effort in differentiating the actions of a hydra.
It wasn't just marci that voted Taly. It was your slot that voted for Taly. Your vote moved there too.
Same thought to DP tbh.
----
When Marci cast the vote, I feel like it *should* be safe to assume that when she did so, she was at least reasonably comfortable believing that you would be okay with it.
Dissonance happens. But that is a Hydra problem. Not a Rest of The Thread Problem imo.
Titus never voted Taly?
Posted: Tue Jul 19, 2022 3:03 pm
by Off The Hook
Also: if a hydra puts in no effort to differentiate, it’s unfair to expect others to do it. But I do differentiate, since I feel like I use slightly similar typography to Marci over discord but in here I put in effort to be more distinct. And in the past, when I’ve made posts referring to my hydra partner in the third person I’ve either not tagged or did a snarky “guess who?” for my tag. This always results in people getting mixed up. So I tag religiously 99% of the time, unless there’s something I feel like make it apparent that it’s me, and even then most times I will tag. So when people still refuse to even TRY to differentiate on their own to the point that they IGNORE my REPEATED DECLARATIONS of my consistent tags, to quote Debbie Wanner: it’s nauseating, frustrating, AND I’M PISSED!
In post 6735, Dancing Puppets wrote:Wasn’t I your preferred elim over the other 3 options and who tf even came up with those 4 options? That’s why I was certain thar it had to have been initiated by scum.
I would like to save Taly but if Pooky’s right, then no elim would be best. I don’t know what to think anymore other than I’m extremely pissed one of my strongest trs is probably getting gladiated. :/
If you asked me who I was trying to kill today, you were not the answer.
When I was asked to choose between you, taly, and 2 of my town reads. You kinda got there by poe (I was not wanting Taly to get gladiated before I got a chance to talk to Bell, and Ceph did not appear willing to wait)
I don't think that that should eliminate me from being interested in asking you questions when things come up.
I don’t understand your point? If I think someone wants me dead, I consider it pretty damn pointless to meaningfully engage with them but if you’re saying that’s not actually the case, then I’m thoroughly confused by this.
In post 8231, ProfessorDrapion wrote:Can I ask your reasoning for all your town reads including the flip town please T-Bone.
I have Rad as lock town because he is the only player I feel is always trying to solve the game. We could learn a lot from him. He was trying to solve it yesterday when we were all kinda demoralized from the gladiate, and the way he handled himself there as well as still continuing to analyze and try to solve reveals a pro-town mindset imo. I would be genuinely and utterly shocked if he flipped red.
I have Luke there because I basically agree with him 90% of the time. Not only that, but I think he always has others perspectives in mind when pointing things out (something I try to do but don't always succeed). But yeah, this may be a blindspot of mine, but I've had a good read on the game thus far, and Luke makes sense to me as town. Outside chance I'm being pocketed, and bravo if that's the case, I just don't see Luke flipping scum.
in my experience
Luke!town gets scumread and randomly run up and gets misyeeted
and Luke!scum gets widely townread by like everyone in the game.
just keep this in mind if we're close to elo and the dude is somehow magically still alive.
In post 6735, Dancing Puppets wrote:Wasn’t I your preferred elim over the other 3 options and who tf even came up with those 4 options? That’s why I was certain thar it had to have been initiated by scum.
I would like to save Taly but if Pooky’s right, then no elim would be best. I don’t know what to think anymore other than I’m extremely pissed one of my strongest trs is probably getting gladiated. :/
If you asked me who I was trying to kill today, you were not the answer.
When I was asked to choose between you, taly, and 2 of my town reads. You kinda got there by poe (I was not wanting Taly to get gladiated before I got a chance to talk to Bell, and Ceph did not appear willing to wait)
I don't think that that should eliminate me from being interested in asking you questions when things come up.
I don’t understand your point? If I think someone wants me dead, I consider it pretty damn pointless to meaningfully engage with them but if you’re saying that’s not actually the case, then I’m thoroughly confused by this.
In post 6735, Dancing Puppets wrote:Wasn’t I your preferred elim over the other 3 options and who tf even came up with those 4 options? That’s why I was certain thar it had to have been initiated by scum.
I would like to save Taly but if Pooky’s right, then no elim would be best. I don’t know what to think anymore other than I’m extremely pissed one of my strongest trs is probably getting gladiated. :/
If you asked me who I was trying to kill today, you were not the answer.
When I was asked to choose between you, taly, and 2 of my town reads. You kinda got there by poe (I was not wanting Taly to get gladiated before I got a chance to talk to Bell, and Ceph did not appear willing to wait)
I don't think that that should eliminate me from being interested in asking you questions when things come up.
I don’t understand your point? If I think someone wants me dead, I consider it pretty damn pointless to meaningfully engage with them but if you’re saying that’s not actually the case, then I’m thoroughly confused by this.
In post 6735, Dancing Puppets wrote:Wasn’t I your preferred elim over the other 3 options and who tf even came up with those 4 options? That’s why I was certain thar it had to have been initiated by scum.
I would like to save Taly but if Pooky’s right, then no elim would be best. I don’t know what to think anymore other than I’m extremely pissed one of my strongest trs is probably getting gladiated. :/
If you asked me who I was trying to kill today, you were not the answer.
When I was asked to choose between you, taly, and 2 of my town reads. You kinda got there by poe (I was not wanting Taly to get gladiated before I got a chance to talk to Bell, and Ceph did not appear willing to wait)
I don't think that that should eliminate me from being interested in asking you questions when things come up.
I don’t understand your point? If I think someone wants me dead, I consider it pretty damn pointless to meaningfully engage with them but if you’re saying that’s not actually the case, then I’m thoroughly confused by this.
@Gamma, I just don’t ever see Bell making this post as scum.
Why? That post is rather simple to fake as scum I would think. Also you quoted another post on accident I think
~GE
No it wasn’t an accident. It was to show that Pooky was also tr Bell but it was probably not the clearest post I could have chosen.
I’m obviously not making headway. Scum!Bell - unless his scumgame has DRASTICALLY improved and I mean DRASTICALLY - just doesn’t make this kind of post or if he tried to, it would come off as extremely fake af.
Luke!town gets scumread and randomly run up and gets misyeeted
and Luke!scum gets widely townread by like everyone in the game.
just keep this in mind if we're close to elo and the dude is somehow magically still alive.
Pooky, this is literally not your experience... because I hardly ever get miseliminated ever.
Like, I was on this site before 8 months before I was miseliminated the first time, and I can count the number of times I have been miseliminated on one hand.
Spoiler:
Isekai
Divide and Conquer
Spring Fling (Where I actually killed myself because I was dancing with Scum and wanted to kill my partner -- and yes, I was being scum read, but I killed my self instead of defending my self because I thought my partner was scum)
I am incredibly hard to eliminate as either alignment tbh.
In post 6735, Dancing Puppets wrote:Wasn’t I your preferred elim over the other 3 options and who tf even came up with those 4 options? That’s why I was certain thar it had to have been initiated by scum.
I would like to save Taly but if Pooky’s right, then no elim would be best. I don’t know what to think anymore other than I’m extremely pissed one of my strongest trs is probably getting gladiated. :/
If you asked me who I was trying to kill today, you were not the answer.
When I was asked to choose between you, taly, and 2 of my town reads. You kinda got there by poe (I was not wanting Taly to get gladiated before I got a chance to talk to Bell, and Ceph did not appear willing to wait)
I don't think that that should eliminate me from being interested in asking you questions when things come up.
I don’t understand your point? If I think someone wants me dead, I consider it pretty damn pointless to meaningfully engage with them but if you’re saying that’s not actually the case, then I’m thoroughly confused by this.
@Gamma, I just don’t ever see Bell making this post as scum.
Why? That post is rather simple to fake as scum I would think. Also you quoted another post on accident I think
~GE
No it wasn’t an accident. It was to show that Pooky was also tr Bell but it was probably not the clearest post I could have chosen.
I’m obviously not making headway. Scum!Bell - unless his scumgame has DRASTICALLY improved and I mean DRASTICALLY - just doesn’t make this kind of post or if he tried to, it would come off as extremely fake af.
Can you recall any examples of Bell posting similar as scum?