Mafiascum.net

They call me Neptune.

Oh look another mystery wagon that springs out of nowhere to save Iceguy from the noose ...

Color me not shocked ...

Made it to page 25, will have to finish up when I finally get home as I'm about to get back on a train.

Thoughts so far:

-IceGuy still scum. What's really funny is that he's saying MoI "ramps up" a person's scumminess, which is totally true, but is NOT a scumtell... It's actually a TOWNTELL for MoI. And it's doubly funny because IceGuy also does this, but I've never observed him doing it as town.

MoI, if you think this wagon is scum motivated, point out which of the people are the scum that are motivating it.

↑ Amrun wrote: What's really funny is that he's saying MoI "ramps up" a person's scumminess, which is totally true, but is NOT a scumtell... It's actually a TOWNTELL for MoI.

Keep in mind I didn't designate "ramping up" per se as a scumtell.

It's a scumtell when it's not in earnest and you're just looking for any reaction you can somehow twist and turn to call the opponent scum.

↑ AurorusVox wrote:MoI, if you think this wagon is scum motivated, point out which of the people are the scum that are motivating it.

Also it's quite funny since he was one of the people trying to get more votes on me when the DCL wagon began disintegrating.

But I'm pretty sure he has a totally legit explanation why the exact same thing is proof of scumminess in other people and proof of towniness in him!

↑ IceGuy wrote:

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:
...It looks just like how MoI described it?

So you consider it scummy to vote for anybody but your top suspect?

I meant you did exactly as what MoI said: you've put me and Moi as your top 2 (though I don't remember why you think I'm scum), but are voting DCL, your third.

However, if you're going to do that, why aren't you voting one of us?

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:
I meant you did exactly as what MoI said: you've put me and Moi as your top 2 (though I don't remember why you think I'm scum), but are voting DCL, your third.

Yes. Do you consider that scummy or not?

Dammit, stupid palm.

Whisper, why did you include my vote on IceGuy and could you please explain what you're getting at here?

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:Oh look another mystery wagon that springs out of nowhere to save Iceguy from the noose ...

Color me not shocked ...

That is quite the coincidence, though. Even ignoring DCL's wagon (since at the time it was considered to be another wagon on scum), should this kick off this would be the second time IceGuy's been saved. Incidentally, he's being saved by the same people who went to Arug yesterday: himself, robo, and AVox.

That's too similar to just be coincidence.

IceGuy wrote:

↑ AurorusVox wrote:MoI, if you think this wagon is scum motivated, point out which of the people are the scum that are motivating it.

Also it's quite funny since he was one of the people trying to get more votes on me when the DCL wagon began disintegrating.

But I'm pretty sure he has a totally legit explanation why the exact same thing is proof of scumminess in other people and proof of towniness in him!

well, uh, he did have you as another scum, so why is it bad that he's simply going to another wagon on scum?

P-EDIT: Ignored my question. Answer it.

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:

↑ IceGuy wrote:

↑ DCLXVI wrote:can you explain how MoI just claimed scum. I don't see it.

He's taking normal town behavior (voting a player I'm willing to lynch who has a large wagon and a high possibility of getting lynched) and insinuating it makes me scum. This is not scumhunting in good faith, that's not even refined manipulation, this is a primitive attempt at trying to get my mislynch wagon through so his partner doesn't get lynched.

...Still not a scumclaim.

Whisper: Don't see it. Why should I lynch MoI?

First, he insinuates I'm scummy for again changing my read on IG (nevermind the fact that it changed back to a scum read and he also thinks IG is scum), and in an even more subtle way, he's saying that I'm somehow trying to save DCL (who is a scum read of mine).

Then despite saying he wants to lynch IG more than DCL, and the case on IG is better, he really does not want to derail the DCL wagon.

Then, after DCL and Voided vote IG, he jumps off DCL and votes IG.

Why is this scummy? Well, first his comments directed towards me just scream that should IG get lynched and flip town, then basically, I'm the one that is going to get the blame tomorrow, because I was the one that derailed the DCL wagon that he wanted to keep intact, and by purposefully making a show of waiting for 2 other people to jump on IG, he has a good excuse in saying that since the DCL wagon was derailed, he had no option but to vote for IG, his main scum read. Except only one of those people (Voided) was on the DCL wagon (DCL obv not voting himself), so basically, his song and dance meant nothing. What happened to not wanting to derail the DCL thread?

Now Voided's vote on IG is terribad too. Voided ditches the case he's had on IG since day 1 (except he hasn't really had a case of his own, mainly sheeped other people) to vote DCL, who is also trying to push a IG lynch, but the way he does it is like he's trying to ditch the responsibility onto someone else.

MoI is acting scummier than IG has all game. His recent post combined with what I said about him yesterday is enough for me to vote him.

If you could stick around for like 5 minutes to answer something: Why is IG scum?

IG? Town? Quotes? Yes? No? Bub?

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:Oh look another mystery wagon that springs out of nowhere to save Iceguy from the noose ...

Color me not shocked ...

Yes, of course, I started a wagon on you to save the guy that I started a wagon on.

Colour me lol!

↑ Amrun wrote:Made it to page 25, will have to finish up when I finally get home as I'm about to get back on a train.

Thoughts so far:

-IceGuy still scum. What's really funny is that he's saying MoI "ramps up" a person's scumminess, which is totally true, but is NOT a scumtell... It's actually a TOWNTELL for MoI. And it's doubly funny because IceGuy also does this, but I've never observed him doing it as town.

Really? Cuz in a game I played with him where he was scum and I was town, he hella ramped up my scumminess and spent all of the first two pages pushing a policy lynch on me by telling everyone I was the worst player around and was power-lurking scum. Except he can't pull that in this game cuz I'm obv town playing completely against my lurk-scum meta. Which thankfully Hoopla pointed out for everyone.

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:
That is quite the coincidence, though. Even ignoring DCL's wagon (since at the time it was considered to be another wagon on scum), should this kick off this would be the second time IceGuy's been saved. Incidentally, he's being saved by the same people who went to Arug yesterday: himself, robo, and AVox.

That's too similar to just be coincidence.

That's factually wrong on so many levels.

When the wagon on DCL started I had all of two votes: you and MoI. For the entire day, I never had more than those, and DCL had a similar number. Also, per definition, every wagon is a wagon where all players consider the player they're voting scum.

Later, you claim the people that "saved" me were myself, Robo and AV. Including myself in that list is actually rather pointless since I won't vote for myself, and I had a scumread on Arugula before I voted him, and a scumread on MoI long before I voted him (I don't think I need to prove that).

More interesting is however that there are not the convenient two people (aside from me) involved, as you claimed, but : whisper, Robocopter87, AurorusVox and vijay2vasandani.

Considering you think I'm scum, you must think that two scum are amongst them. So: Who are they, and what makes their behavior scummy as opposed to the others' behavior?

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:
well, uh, he did have you as another scum, so why is it bad that he's simply going to another wagon on scum?

What?

P-EDIT: Ignored my question. Answer it.

That question assumes I'm not currently voting one of you, but I'm voting MoI.

↑ Voidedmafia wrote:Dammit, stupid palm.

Whisper, why did you include my vote on IceGuy and could you please explain what you're getting at here?

↑ MagnaofIllusion wrote:Oh look another mystery wagon that springs out of nowhere to save Iceguy from the noose ...

Color me not shocked ...

That is quite the coincidence, though. Even ignoring DCL's wagon (since at the time it was considered to be another wagon on scum), should this kick off this would be the second time IceGuy's been saved. Incidentally, he's being saved by the same people who went to Arug yesterday: himself, robo, and AVox.

That's too similar to just be coincidence.

Wtf, I derailed the DCL wagon by starting the IG wagon, which I then derailed to start the MoI wagon.

Are you on acid or something? Do you see the idea he's trying to push and why he's completely wrong?

Correction before somebody quote-snipes this as an UNDENIABLE PROOF I'm scum:

↑ IceGuy wrote:
For the entire day, I never had more than those,

should read: For the entire day up until the DCL wagon fell apart and the wagon on me was renewed,

↑ IceGuy wrote:Correction before somebody quote-snipes this as an UNDENIABLE PROOF I'm scum:

Overly cautious now? I don't see how that quote below could have been used against you.

↑ DCLXVI wrote:
Overly cautious now? I don't see how that quote below could have been used against you.

You don't know MoI, do you?

You've done scummy things, but what you were worried about certainly wasn't one of them.

↑ whispersilk wrote:
First, he insinuates I'm scummy for again changing my read on IG (nevermind the fact that it changed back to a scum read and he also thinks IG is scum), and in an even more subtle way, he's saying that I'm somehow trying to save DCL (who is a scum read of mine).

Well, for the post in question, it seems he's calling you out for a contradiction in what you call "town reactions": Namely that IG AtE's a lurks which made you call him town, but Arug reacts and posts actively, which you also call him town for.

Though, I don't really see the implication of you trying to save DCL.

Then despite saying he wants to lynch IG more than DCL, and the case on IG is better, he really does not want to derail the DCL wagon.

Well, he did call crap on others for derailing the IG wagon, and while this may be against his own style, I don't find it that bad that he doesn't want to catch himself in his own contradiction.

Now Voided's vote on IG is terribad too. Voided ditches the case he's had on IG since day 1 (except he hasn't really had a case of his own, mainly sheeped other people) to vote DCL, who is also trying to push a IG lynch, but the way he does it is like he's trying to ditch the responsibility onto someone else.

I admit to sheeping some, yes--though IIRC I did profess the points in my own words and didn't just do nothing but sheep MoI--but since DCL and AVox were getting all wound up about (AVox, mainly), I just decided to give them their requet. I suppose the post in question can carrying that implication, but I was perfectly willing to revote DCL once the majority of people had collected/flipped.

MoI is acting scummier than IG has all game. His recent post combined with what I said about him yesterday is enough for me to vote him.

...No, I don't think that's true.

I'll get to your post, IG, after work.

P-EDIT: After trying to call a post from MoI "UNDENIABLE PROOF" he's scum? <_<

PE2: Whuh?

↑ DCLXVI wrote:You've done scummy things, but what you were worried about certainly wasn't one of them.

Consider that correction post and the follow-up written with a smiley at the end.

You say I have done scummy things - could you describe them in your own words?

YES, I went the fuck on vacation. Get over it, everyone. I don't have any other planned things before this game should end.

Catching up is a bitch, and I prioritized by deadlines, and anyone looking at my other games should realize why some games were more important.

Now I have finally read everything. I had an exciting moment where I thought DCL scumslipped, almost posted it, and then realized I just read it wrong.

I still fucking hate that gambit. It reeks of "did something scummy, clumsily tried to cover it up." This had me wanting to vote DCL. I didn't view his lack of selfhammer as a towntell because he so clearly pointed it out himself - towncred, duh. It is null. But then he did try to draw conclusions from his "gambit," so it evens up at around null.

↑ IceGuy wrote:

↑ Amrun wrote: What's really funny is that he's saying MoI "ramps up" a person's scumminess, which is totally true, but is NOT a scumtell... It's actually a TOWNTELL for MoI.

Keep in mind I didn't designate "ramping up" per se as a scumtell.

It's a scumtell when it's not in earnest and you're just looking for any reaction you can somehow twist and turn to call the opponent scum.

No, it's not - not when he does this more often as town as scum, but this is especially funny because you are doing that right now with MoI.

Point in case: yesterday, the EXACT SAME BEHAVIOR from MoI made him town by meta, according to you, but then you flip flop for no discernible reason other than pressure? Meta can't equal town AND scum. This meta flip flop from you is extremely scummy, especially without addressing it when you made the flip flop AND after it was pointed out.

MoI's stretches are, at best, null. He does this all the time. Usually, when he starts really fucking annoying me, I know he's town. He's not quite at that level yet, but he's getting there.

I think you're stretching a lot too with MoI. The original point you had was valid, that he said the wagon was scum driven but then didn't show how it was and the reads don't match up, but it's not much by itself. How much you've tried to make out of it is silly. All other points are silly.

↑ whispersilk wrote:

@Amrun:

If you could stick around for like 5 minutes to answer something: Why is IG scum?

I have found him extremely scummy starting from yesterday; I dislike how he questioned Arugula's townread on me while NOT having a scumread on me. In general, most of his reads don't gel in this way. This is a hallmark of "looking for things to attack" rather than genuinely scumhunting, and undermining town reads like that is a favorite scumtell of mine.

Today, I have found him pretty hypocritical, as outlined above, and he is contradicting himself to make his argument look better in whatever time he's posting it in. I also don't like how he misconstrues attacks against him and strawmans them, like he did with yours. He countered by saying, "So changing reads is scummy?" when CLEARLY you were not saying that - you were saying that the context he changed them in and how he changed them made him scummy. Incorrectly boiling it down to "so changing reads is scummy" is super disingenuous.

But that's quite interesting, because you have just done the same thing. I cannot comprehend your jump from IceGuy to MoI. It makes zero freaking sense.

I really liked your case on IceGuy, and then you ruined that nice town sense I had of you by changing gears so suddenly and now I'm conflicted. It's one thing to change your vote, and quite another to suddenly vote for the person your previous scumread has been pushing, with whom the arguments with were the basis of your original suspicion.

↑ whispersilk wrote:

↑ Amrun wrote:Made it to page 25, will have to finish up when I finally get home as I'm about to get back on a train.

Thoughts so far:

-IceGuy still scum. What's really funny is that he's saying MoI "ramps up" a person's scumminess, which is totally true, but is NOT a scumtell... It's actually a TOWNTELL for MoI. And it's doubly funny because IceGuy also does this, but I've never observed him doing it as town.

Really? Cuz in a game I played with him where he was scum and I was town, he hella ramped up my scumminess and spent all of the first two pages pushing a policy lynch on me by telling everyone I was the worst player around and was power-lurking scum. Except he can't pull that in this game cuz I'm obv town playing completely against my lurk-scum meta.

Which thankfully Hoopla pointed out for everyone.

That's not my experience with him as scum. I'm sure he does it sometimes as scum, as well - my point was that it's not a scumtell.

The bolded really pings my scumdar. It has all the hallmarks of "teehee I killed Hoopla so nk analysis wouldn't implicate me! Now I can use her meta tell on me as legit and no one will question it!"

If my read on IceGuy wasn't so strong, I'd be voting you.

↑ Amrun wrote:
No, it's not - not when he does this more often as town as scum, but this is especially funny because you are doing that right now with MoI.

Uhm, no. I have had a pretty consistent scumread on him since the end of D1, and I did not twist his posts into something scummy.

You will see a small difference - when I'm up against MoI, MoI will somehow claim every single line of my preceding post makes me confirmed scum, while I only take points that are legitimately scummy.

Point in case: yesterday, the EXACT SAME BEHAVIOR from MoI made him town by meta, according to you, but then you flip flop for no discernible reason other than pressure? Meta can't equal town AND scum. This meta flip flop from you is extremely scummy, especially without addressing it when you made the flip flop AND after it was pointed out.

I know pseudo-scumhunting is common with MoI, but when he's town, he will not go as far off the deep end as he does at scum, which explains my change of reads - his alignment becomes more and more clear as the game progresses. In the end, we have statements such as his latest two posts which are definitely not something that comes from town-MoI. There are other subtle tells I'm less sure, though, for instance town-MoI tends to give more townreads, but scum-MoI tends to give more scumreads.

I think you're stretching a lot too with MoI. The original point you had was valid, that he said the wagon was scum driven but then didn't show how it was and the reads don't match up, but it's not much by itself. How much you've tried to make out of it is silly. All other points are silly.

I cited that point in detail because it was a good and blatant example of MoI's tactics - in the course of the game, I have made several other points against him, such as the "ramping up" strategy, his claim that my suspects == players I voted on, the fake "did not vote for" scumtell, and his second "scum driven wagon" claim that makes even less sense than the first one.

Clicked submit too early.

I have found him extremely scummy starting from yesterday; I dislike how he questioned Arugula's townread on me while NOT having a scumread on me. In general, most of his reads don't gel in this way. This is a hallmark of "looking for things to attack" rather than genuinely scumhunting, and undermining town reads like that is a favorite scumtell of mine.

You seem to be missing my point.

My point was that, at this point, you posted so little that there was no way anybody could have an honest read on you, town or scum. You're also a "safe townread" since you generally appear town at least early in the game, so "Amrun is town" at this point was a read that was not based on facts, but rather made to appear as if one has a genuine read, and a read nobody is called out for or even called to explain. Also, Arugula did not explain his townread on you with more than "her posting looked town", so I'm pretty sure it was actually a fake read.

Today, I have found him pretty hypocritical, as outlined above, and he is contradicting himself to make his argument look better in whatever time he's posting it in. I also don't like how he misconstrues attacks against him and strawmans them, like he did with yours. He countered by saying, "So changing reads is scummy?" when CLEARLY you were not saying that - you were saying that the context he changed them in and how he changed them made him scummy. Incorrectly boiling it down to "so changing reads is scummy" is super disingenuous.

My point was that whisper criticized me for changing reads, and did the same in a similar situation. This is not misconstruing or strawmanning, this is drawing parallels:

↑ IceGuy wrote:
Well timed such as your sudden change to "IceGuy is scum" when a DCL lynch was imminent? Doesn't that look like "well timed"?