In post 758, BROseidon wrote:Why is consistency town-motivated? Also, in the second quote of his you've posted, what is the town-motivation of stating theory that is wrong (his part about wagon-speed being null is just outright wrong).
Consistency betrays earnestness which I find is difficult for scum to fake. It also makes the progression of his read transparent.
The second question is pretty loaded. What makes wagon speed alignment indicative?
What kind of consistency are you talking about here, desp?
Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:01 am
by Faster Than Light
@AJ: Consider, instead, that I already have a hard time reading Nacho. Through seeing how Nacho's thinks, and what he thinks about certain players, I can better situate him as town or scum and I can see where he stands in relation to these other players. Also, I value Nacho's input regardless of alignment, so I'd like a bit of help with specific players that I'm having trouble reading outright. I never said I wasn't having dissonance, in fact, the post you quoted admits to that. You're getting hung up on that bolded shit instead of reading all of what I wrote, which is why I hate being long-winded in my town games. I always get read wrong because of people who can't swallow my entire posts and get all sour over one bit when other bits make that bit more understandable.
@TD: Cool vote, homie.
PEDIT:
@Nickthename: He didn't? Holy shit, you're right. I must've misread his 128, it's a lot more clear now that he's just pissed at how Venmar played his PGO claim. I've never hydra'd with metal sonic, but we've got several PMs sent between us trying to get in touch. Skype isn't letting our messages hit each other, and MS isn't responding to me in the MafiaChat, so I just PM'd him my facebook account, so I hope he'll get in touch with me through that. MS plays this sort of way in all of his games, which is why I hydra'd with him. I'm usually way more long-winded and I focus on individual posts a lot. MS is tangental and assess the game as a whole, his posts seeming disconnected from the post-by-post discussion. Also, I can never fucking read him, so I'd rather be on his side than not.
No. I'm happy also. I just finished 5 games and four of those were scum in a row.
Sounds fake. I've heard players express a true elation at the fact they've drawn town, whereas this is just boring for someone who seems to not want to play as scum.
In post 738, Malakittens wrote:Yep, fuck this shit. The next person to call me scum off my ISO receives my damn vote. I'm not fucking done catching up.
No. You're scum-reading us, yeah? Give me reasons. Otherwise, I call bullshit.
Calling me scum off my ISO without me being fully caught up is the most stupidest fucking thing I have seen. It's like not even giving me a freaking chance.
Want to know why? I don't see town-Mollie at all in the
15 pages I read
before replacing in. She's more "out spoken, aggressive and hunting for reads" and so far she isn't. I am scum reading you guys do to that and I already said that when I asked for Fery's explanation, but damn if I knew Mollie was going to rage-replace out due to Fery's answer I would have never asked in the first place.
Keep calling me bullshit when I already made the comment, but I never noted specifics.
This.is.not.town.Mollie.
VOTE: BeautyAndTheBeast
No, that's Jiffy-town. Same as always, almost lovable majiffy. But odd... 15 pages before your replace in, and yet... Apply some pressure and we get to see a bit of a reversal.
Someone REALLY cares about how they look right now.
Hm. Someone caring how they look is a scum tell? But more or less, that was explaining where he'd be... So, let's see how you're doing. In any preceding post, a contradiction to this tell will be
bold
.
In post 774, Malakittens wrote:I have seen town-AJ once and I'm not really seeing it, but I will need to take a closer look. So they were impatient and started w/o me on League. (fuck you andy </3)
The game you played with me was a game where I was radically outspoken and my first town game on site. I had both you scum nailed down by day 2, and unfortunately no one listened, so I spent the rest of the game trying to get the rest of them to see my point.
... Can we not defend me? Let me defend for myself, thank you.
Caring about how you look? Could be coaching, but being to Thezmon, he's way smarter than protect a scumbuddy blatantly. He'd let you drop at this point.
Again, now you're trying to deflect votes. So, FTL is scum telling by explaining why he disapperars. And you're just asking Jiffy to back off so he doesn't get you voted? That's a scumtell. Appealing to the other slot in a hydra to stop that hydra's vote is pretty awful.
are you the cat who hydra'd with mara in HxH mafia?
i am the sonic who masoned with gif and bork(our mod) over here
nice to meet you
Yes.
You aren't playing the same.
You scum slipped.
You are scum, tyvm.
Nice to meet you though.
This is my thinking. MS is always straightforward. As stupid as some of the stuff he says, he doesn't take any level of deception skills. So when he goes and tries to identify who Mala is, I feel that scum would already know the teammate switching in. I also remember Mala being incredibly hesitant to buzz JasonWazza in the newbie game and actually getting caught for it (unfortunately never lynched) so the whole interaction does not show true for either to be on the same team. Speculation? Yes. But it's enough to deter me.
Spoilered so Venmar can completely ignore a wall.
Vote:Malakittens
I have to say, though, I'm slightly flustered that Mala hasn't even attempted what I took for granted as a town meta replication in the newbie game. No analysis walls put with links that seem completely perfect. A lot of emotional play, but yet inefficient emotion in the expression of elation in her happiness to be town. All of this is off from what I've taken as Mala-town play (and I did a meta dive of her in the newbie game to try and find a flaw to exploit to get her lynched.)
Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:07 am
by zMuffinMan
The spoilered contains a wall of responses, comments and questions to different people (TD, nick, BRO, desperado, malakittens). The rest of the game is free to ignore it if they want.
Spoiler: wall of bullshit
TD wrote:Muffins, you are either misrepping hard or incapable of actually reading. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here.
I would prefer you didn't give me the benefit of the doubt here, and instead tell me why what I've said is "misrepping hard" or wrong.
Do you have a reason to think I'm town or something?
---
nick wrote:Since these are fairly controversial, could you, like, post at least a summery of why you think them?
re TFL, I was pretty much entirely null on his posts when I first looked over them (I think I already mentioned this in one of my earlier posts) but after the exchange with MS on p22 I decided FTL was likely town. This is mostly to do with the responses I was getting from MS and my assessment that he is more likely to be open about his reads without consulting with his other head if he's town. But yeah that was the catalyst for me thinking he's town. I still have minor issues with his early play, but not enough to think he's scum, and some of his other posts have felt kind of townish. At the very least, I haven't seen anything particularly convincing in the way of a case on him yet, so I'm happy with him being a town read for now.
re Mac, this is mostly to do with the way he is approaching the game. It looks like he's been trying to figure out what's going in this game and the way he's doing this looks really town - mostly due to the lack of confidence I'm seeing here. His latest posts have reinforced this. I don't find the reasons for his vote on TD particularly scummy at all. And again, I don't think any of the cases I've seen for Mac being scum are convincing. Only real issue I have with Mac at the moment is he just unvoted and is now doing nothing with his vote, but meh, I'm beginning to think there's something wrong with this game in that regard, because half the player list is not voting at the moment.
---
BRO wrote:I'm getting a less scummy feeling from muffinz
Elaborate on this read when you have time. What about my early posting did you feel was "scummy" and what about my posting after that changed this?
BRO wrote:I am also scumreading Mac.
Also elaborate on this read, too.
---
desperado wrote:Mac's TD push her is very reminiscent of Mac's push on monkeyman as scum in WWE mafia--it begins in #2056 and extends to #2108
I really dislike meta as an argument, but I had a look over that game anyway and see distinct differences in the way Mac approched the push on monkeyman in that game and the way Mac has been playing here. For example, in that game you get confident statements like "today we lynch monkey chaps", "monkey votes please. he is today's lynch", "it's blatantly obvious that you were feigning stupidity" - I could go on and on, but what I'm saying here are there are a lot of statements that reek of confidence in that push. In this game, however, Mac has been more inquisitive, less confident, etc etc. This is all stuff I mentioned earlier in this wall (in my response to nick), but I feel it's even more apparent now that you've linked his scum meta. So uh, yeah.
I acknowledge that there are also similarities between that game and this one, kinda... But they don't point to Mac being scum IMO.
Maybe you can tell me why I'm wrong here, or perhaps link me to other games that show a similar playstyle from Mac as scum.
---
malakittens wrote:I'm not liking Muffin
Why? Why did you basically explain every other read and not this one?
malakittens wrote:Holy fucking scum-tell Batman.
Someone REALLY cares about how they look right now.
Talk about your vote on FTL a bit, please. I don't see the "scum-tell" there or anything particularly scummy in that post.
malakittens wrote:Can you give me links on Mastin's accuracy to read you?
I cbf getting the links for the games, but there's Brightest Day (Large Theme), Large Normal 137, Large Normal 146 (where he was the only active member of Palisade, I'm just remembering this read off the top of my head because the records of it have been deleted but mastin may be able to verify this if he remembers the game), Large Normal 143 (although he was scum in a multiball game here, so this doesnt't count for much), Mortal Kombat (Large Theme) (he had me as a town read for most of it and never thought I was particularly scummy outside his mastin-esque VCA). There may be other games that I'm forgetting or were deleted back around the end of 2011.
Looking back, I realised I don't recall ever playing scum in a game with mastin, unless it was on an alt I don't know about.
malakittens wrote:That's actually just normal for Rach in any alignment. She tends to do that =\
If it was as simple as not having done anything so far, then perhaps I'd be inclined to believe it's not alignment indicative. It has more to do with the stuff she's actually done in place of scum hunting that bothers me. I elaborated on this a bit in the spoiler below (in my reply to mastin) if you're actually interested in my thoughts about this.
Special spoiler wall for mastin:
Spoiler: 8==D
mastin wrote:I'm a bit concerned about [Muffin's] stances, such as nicktown, Rachscum, maScum2, TD as scum
What specifically concerns you about these reads?
Also can you put all your current reads together in one post (just the reads, don't give a shit about the explanations for now).
As for the RM-town stuff, no. Just no.
Here are my basic thoughts on RM:
RM wrote:Besides his reaction to Venmar's claim is there even a case on TD? Something other than oh he was scum last time please.
RM wrote:Could you explain your case on him, besides the whole thing with Venmar?
RM wrote:I gather from that that Notty is basically an Innocent Child mod verified?
RM wrote:Could someone let me know who the heads of the hydrae are?
A bunch of quotes from RM with questions that should have been self-apparent to anyone even skimming the game. I added some that you left out to further illustrate the point. All of these are pointless questions that she should either already know the answer to, or should be able to find out with 30 seconds of reading. What this actually looks like to me is RM-scum thinking, "If I ask these questions, maybe I'll look like I'm town who is curious!" or something along those lines.
RM wrote:peeps with votes on Venmar need to like remove them for a bit, the claim will sort itself out soon enough.
This is nothing but fence-sitting. It doesn't suggest anything about her thoughts on Venmar, just that the PGO claim isn't necessarily scummy. She isn't accountable for anything here, so regardless of whatever you think it implies, it doesn't actually mean anything. You can't look back at this and go, "oh, but she thought he was town here!" if she later calls him scum. Also this is
exactly
what I imagine RM-scum would say about this - it is the most simple and basic example of fence-sitting and pretending to be busy.
RM wrote:Want to take a look at the interplay tween B n B and SoS
I do realize of course that the Mollie head and the fery head are long time friends from another site, but want to be sure it is not being used as a cover for buddying.
This is nothing more than a throwaway comment. I would agree that it could be perceived as town
if she actually followed it up with anything
but she never does. What this actually looks like to me is RM-scum just throwing this out there to look like she's being busy when she's actually not doing anything productive at all. You'd have a case for calling her town if she did anything with this, but the far more likely scenario here is RM-scum throwing this out and doing nothing with it (I am aware that you think she did something with this, but I'll get to that in a bit). Do you imagine RM-scum would have said it differently or just not commented on it or something?
RM wrote:Cause though I can see how that would look scummy, the fact we have a wagon build up this fast this early before everyone has even posted kinda sets up my scumdar a tad.
RM wrote:Whether TD is scum or town I am not sure on, but I am leaning town cause that wagon hell Nacho has not even posted yet..... And a few others as well. 8 of 11 votes? Cmon guys n gals we need to examine those on his wagon duh.
These are just throwaway comments. They mean nothing. You can't hold her to a read here or ask her to explain anything, because there
is no read
. There's no accountability in this statement. She's not saying she thinks TD is town and the wagon is bad, or she thinks TD is scum but the wagon has her doubting this, she's just saying the wagon was quick, and it should be examined. And again, this is another throwaway comment because she never actually
does anything
with this... It's another useless statement and far more likely to come from RM-scum than RM-town.
RM wrote:No need to get worried Mollie just I am not 100% sold that both your slot and hers are town. Given time will be better at sorting it out. And part of that would be finding out if its just hey we know each other or that you are playing buddy buddy knowing peeps would think it too blatant to be buddying. As Jiffy and Syr post that will help too.
This is not a followup of her earlier statement about looking into the interplay between SoS and BnB. This is nothing. Literally nothing. It doesn't show she's done anything more to look into it than she did way back when she first said she'd look into it, and there's absolutely nothing here that she can be held accountable for as a read.
And here's the thing mastin, I could deconstruct her entire ISO and show that not only the above stuff points to her being likely scum, but that she has quite literally done no scum hunting, given no reads that she can be held accountable for, has not voted anyone yet, and has basically coasted through the game mostly unnoticed or ignored for reasons I'm not quite able to comprehend at this point in time.
You say she's trying to figure things out? No. Mac is an example of someone trying to figure things out. He's been asking game-relevant questions, giving his positions on players, etc. Compare this to RM and you'd be lying if you actually said she's been trying to figure anything out in this game.
The fact you think all this makes her town and that there's nothing scummy about all this is intriguing.
Haven't sorted my thoughts on the rest yet. May look through ISOs later if I can be bothered. If not, tomorrow.
Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:11 am
by TiphaineDeath
See, I was not voting FTL because I had varsoon scum and MS town, luckily I have both of you as scum now, so bombs away. I'd still rather lynch mac honestly, but that doesn't look like it's happening today.
Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:15 am
by zMuffinMan
I will be glad to look at any cases on my town reads tomorrow and give my opinions on why they're all shit.
In the mean time, it should be rather obvious that I'd prefer they not be lynched.
This is bad. Confirmed town is still confirmed town, regardless. Make the scum kill this slot because they can't really let confirmed town stay alive. Less places to pressure, and should they get into lylo, their chances of success are devastatingly lower.
Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:19 am
by Faster Than Light
In post 880, TiphaineDeath wrote:See, I was not voting FTL because I had varsoon scum and MS town, luckily I have both of you as scum now, so bombs away. I'd still rather lynch mac honestly, but that doesn't look like it's happening today.
"MY wagon on scum isn't happening, so instead of pushing it with hard articulation, a good ISO, and putting realistic pressure on my top scum-pick, I'm gonna vote for FTL 'cus he's scum. Why? Oh, no, I'm just reading him as that. Why? ~reasons~!"
C'mon, TiphaneD.
Diddle my wiener and give me something to latch on to.
Besides, given that someone finally told me that you never voted venmar, most of your points on me are moot. I was operating under the idea that you had, and so your responses to those responses deny that revelation.
@Muffin: While you're still here, why are you reading Rach as scum? Can you give a quote or something for me to look at, and explain that read a bit more thoroughly? I've seen too many rach mislynches pushed through due to Rach's playstyle, and, frankly, she's indecipherable for me.
@AJ: I think that muffinman vig shot deal is a joke, tbh. Notscience oscillates between contribution and high-noise fluff. I agree with your points on how to engage with the IC.
-V
Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:21 am
by zMuffinMan
Scum killing notscience would be playing against their wincon. Read his ISO.
ftl wrote:why are you reading Rach as scum?
Click the mastin wall.
Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:23 am
by Faster Than Light
In post 885, zMuffinMan wrote:Scum killing notscience would be playing against their wincon. Read his ISO.
ftl wrote:why are you reading Rach as scum?
Click the mastin wall.
Thanks.
Also, dat first line.
Unf~
-V
Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:24 am
by Faster Than Light
Logging out for awhile.
If you need to address me, use bold around my name when doing so.
Here's to hoping I can reach MS today.
-V
Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:26 am
by notscience
Yo Muffin
Let me let you in on a little secret
Because I'm town
If I get to Lylo, anyone who IS town has a higher than 50% chance to find scum.
And who knows, maybe I'm throwing you all through a loop
Maybe I intend to get to lylo.
Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:27 am
by zMuffinMan
You assume lylo is 2:1.
Lylo with you still alive is likely 7:6 or 6:5.
Scum know this. They won't kill you.
Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:30 am
by Venmar
6 is a pretty big scumteam for 21 players
Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:30 am
by notscience
Not really.
Say you're town. We're both in 6v5 Lylo. You now know 2 of the 6 town. Therefore it's 5v4 , or a 5/9 chance to vote scum.
Which is over 50%.
Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:33 am
by zMuffinMan
notscience wrote:Not really.
Say you're town. We're both in 6v5 Lylo. You now know 2 of the 6 town. Therefore it's 5v4 , or a 5/9 chance to vote scum.
Which is over 50%.
And 5/9*4/7*3/5*2/4*1/3 is not good odds to get to a 2:1 lylo at which point we'd be left with you to make a decision, meaning 0% overall chance of town win.
Scum know this, they want to keep you alive.
Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:34 am
by zMuffinMan
er I scrwed up the maths at the end but point still stands
Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:35 am
by notscience
You're assuming no scum bus, first of all.
And if scum don't bus in Lylo and we lynch scum, guess what happens.
- I've already talked about this, but her entering the thread looks towny.
zMuffin
- Feels authentic, although I'm still waiting on his new reads.
thezmon
- Arguing against him feels like arguing with a thoughtful townie, although I disagree with some of his reads
BROseiden
- I like his notes regarding ghostlin, a player most people seem to have overlooked. His liar tell thing seems dumb, but it also seems town.
I love lists.
remind me again why mala's entrance was town? I thought it was very bad and was starting to scum read her for it but she is looking better and majiffy getting under skin feels like it is coming more from frustrated townie than a scummy act.
so muffin looks authentic and that is why you have him as town? can you expand on that?
thez read is decent
bro read looks vaguely like grooming an unconfident townie.
Null
:
Rach
- She's right up there with zMuffin as far as time since we last heard from her, and her play before didn't really give me much of an opinion on her.
Skull
- Nothing to see here
Nacho
- Not contributing much, but nacho never contributes much. Until something serious that he is forced to react to, I doubt I'll get much of a read here.
Andrius
- His scumread on me feels forced, but his read of the game feels towny. Dunno, really.
Ghostlin
-Yet to see very much from him. His vote on Mala is dumb, but it doesn't really pop out is scum to me. I'd like some reads from him.
TD
- His emotions seem legitimate, but I'm not sure I'm a fan of how quiet he's been lately.
Venmar
- Who knows? Not me.
Those other 2 hydras
- Too hard to read for anything real D1, methinks.
Everyone else I forgot.
if nicky flips scum then andy is most assuredly is his partner. scum always always always put at least 1 partner dead in the middle and hey! I was scum reading andy anyways so
the nacho never contributes much is a bunch of crap and untrue and there should more peeps than just me who will point this out.
nothing to say about venny's claim or play? lol hedge.
Scum-leaning:-
B&B
- The harass of Mala doesn't look towny. That said, the hydra dissonance is strong with this one, and i'm having a hard time even figuring out what they believe. Also, sign your posts, seriously, it's not hard. Can yall like, talk to eachother and agree on reads or something?
FTL
- Have these 2 ever played in a hydra before? Seriously, you guys are harder to figure out then B&B, and not in a good way. MS is barely even legible, and all his question seem completely random and pointless. I see a tiny bit of scummieness poking through from Varsoon in posts like this: VOTE: FTL
I don't get the feeling they are putting any effort at all into working together, making it hard to get a read. Hopefully they'll eventually feel enough preassure to do it, and then I can be more definitive in my read.
Mastin
- Is dumb and doesn't make much sense. His read on me also looks pretty forced, but since he doesn't really bother to back it up, it's hard to tell. It worries me that he doesn't really do any analysis on the TD wagon, which seems like something someone who considers themself to be as analytical as Mastin seems to think he is would do.
Mac
- Reasons are in my iso. Scum.
reads are bad bad bad, and if I had a go at it I would say that he is either bussing ftl (it is around that time) and that (sadly) mastin might be scum (again he puts a scummate in the middle). mastin is also a very good player and 1 of the biggest mistakes is that they will claim a skill beyond their level of experience and scumhunting mastin falls into that category (if mastin is indeed scum). while nicky is being incredibly elegant about it reads like a pile of weaksauce.
wrt the scumread on our slot, none of those are scumtells. majiffy pushes people for reactions that is just how he is. he goes overboard cos he does not always pick up on social cues of when he should stop. I already explained we give independent reads on d1 and then fight about them in the night round and their are players here who are familiar enough with us to know that. I have reigned him in a bit and I now have him on a tight leash which is pretty much what I had to do in xeno1. his d1 reads sucked during that game but he was really hitting it on d2, majiffy is the type of player who does much better with flips and info to work with.
I wanna see a nicky flip cos I am really feeling it that he is scum in this game and I think it will provide a whole lot of info. his case on mac looks like scum leaping all over an inconsistency when town can sometimes be inconsistent with their thoughts too. his vote on ftl looks like he is either bussing or being opportunistic.
VOTE: nicky
gonna type up a full list of my reads in a minute.
Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:37 am
by RachMarie
how can you be so sure. every game I have been in with innocent child the scum make an effort to kill the innocent child (or in the case of Less Pressure--Innocent children).
I have not given a large list of reads yet because oh duh 36 friggen pages with some peeps not yet talking or not talking much....
On top of that had some modly things to do.
And yeah my knee still hurts.
BTW I will get on this game a lot more after I rest my knee and we take Lucky to the vet today. He has been throwing up a lot and I am worried about him.
yes Z dude is the zmon one I call the other one muffin to keep them straight. Also call notscience Notty so it does not get confused with NS who is my fiance.
Var you and MS really need to get it together more its making extremely difficult to figure out your slot.
more later dudes and dudettes
Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:38 am
by Aj The Epic
Oh God... now the issue with Notscience and Rach living together...
Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:42 am
by Venmar
I believe Mastin and FTL are scum like Nick, and that Muffin and Mala are town like Nick. Not to mention his vote on me in response to my claim which looked like he definitely had a read on me...
HOW DOES NICK NOT HAVE A READ ON ME, WTF IS THIS FAKE MADE UP BULLSHIT
Posted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:48 am
by nickthename
@895Be careful mollie, if you keep grasping at straws that hard, you'll break them, and then you won't be able to keep drinking whatever hard liquor you were drinking when you made that post. Can yall like talk about reads before the end of day one? Is there some reason why have to wait for the first night to talk?
