Mini 1630: Edgar Allan Poe uPick GAME OVER!

[Catastrophe]

That last post was from me by the way.

--tool.

[copper223]

@Catastrophe
Ok that is a fair point, so is there such a player on the lynch that could have tried to get scanned without knowing it was a bad idea?

- I can say there is nothing in my role PM which would suggest it, so it's not me.

[Kthxbye]

- I can say there is nothing in my role PM which would suggest it, so it's not me.

^ditto

[Bookitty]

Okay. @Copper:

You parsed the "at least one" thing very carefully. But if you are going to say "at least one" non-morbid on the lynch, then that indicates that one and perhaps more than one non-Morbid is on the lynch. Third parties aren't interesting to me right now, only Morbid town and non-Morbid. For purposes of this discussion, we can even assume four scum if one is third party. That would put it at two and two, something we don't know not to be true.

What I can say is that if there is a third party with a nightly killing role, they must have targeted COA by the claims we have. If they don't have a killing role, I'm inclined not even to care about them at this point. I think this discussion of third parties is pretty useless, honestly.

I empathise with Kthxbye.

@Cat: If a townie was unscannable and that wasn't revealed to them in this game, I'd regard it as pretty bastard given the nature of Lynx's role. This isn't a bastard game, so I think that's an unlikely scenario.

[copper223]

@Boo
I'm trying to interpret mod language for you to show you why saying at least one morbid is perfectly compatible with having a blank and having to rely that information to the players.

[Catastrophe]

@Catastrophe
Ok that is a fair point, so is there such a player on the lynch that could have tried to get scanned without knowing it was a bad idea?

- I can say there is nothing in my role PM which would suggest it, so it's not me.

Nothing in our PM to suggest it either.

@Cat: If a townie was unscannable and that wasn't revealed to them in this game, I'd regard it as pretty bastard given the nature of Lynx's role. This isn't a bastard game, so I think that's an unlikely scenario.

I don't follow. Why would that be bastard? I think it makes sense not to tell a player that they're unscannable because if you do then it tells that player that there's a scanner in the game. Especially for town it makes sense, because then that player could independently confirm Lynx's claim.

That being said, three out of five remaining players who were on the Lynx wagon say that they don't have anything in their PMs to suggest that they might be unscannable so it might be a moot point.

[Bookitty]

But you can't interpret mod language for me, Copper. That's my point.

We know what Lynx's role PM says. If there's an immune-to-investigation role out there, then his role PM is a lie. It's inaccurate. It's assuring Lynx that there isn't a role that there actually is. That's far worse than giving an ambiguous flip on a sensor.

Ffery has already said her results were accurate. One, at least one. Either the role PM was inaccurate or it was an exact result of one.

[Bookitty]

It would be bastard, copper, because it would make Lynx's role PM a lie. An unscannable player makes Lynx's role PM inaccurate.

We're talking about wording here. Go read his role PM. There's no ambiguity there. If Ffery deliberately inserted ambiguity into the sensor-flip, then why the hell wouldn't she do it there as well?

[copper223]

That is complete crap.

If you are a vigilante and your shot does not go through you have to assume the other player was bullet proof or someone else prevented your kill from happening, since when do you need to be told your role PM about it

[Catastrophe]

If there's an immune-to-investigation role out there, then his role PM is a lie. It's inaccurate. It's assuring Lynx that there isn't a role that there actually is.

What? When you give a role PM to a vig you don't tell them whether there's a BP in the game. When you give a role PM to a gunsmith you don't tell them whether there's a faction they'll get a negative result on that's still scum (Werewolf/SK). When you give a role PM to a cop you don't tell them whether there's a godfather.

The role PM tells Lynx what his ability does when it works properly. It seems wrong to me to assume that if there was a role out there that would mess with the result, the mod would spell that out in Lynx's role PM.

[copper223]

+1

[copper223]

I want to lynch you for that alone frankly.

[Bookitty]

Welcome! You are The Black Cat! You are one of the Morbid.

You have the following abilities ~

While Alive:

- Your vote and your wits.
- You are a self-voyeur. After each night, you will learn all (if any) actions that targeted you, but not who performed the actions.

While Dead:
- If you are lynched, the number of scum who voted you will be revealed in your cardflip.

Lynx's role PM for those who don't want to search back through.

Note it doesn't say "may be revealed." If the ambiguity is intended and there are two scum on Lynx's wagon, then Lynx's role PM was inaccurate and misleading.

[copper223]

No, it means (unless you are right and Ffery is screwing with us and that is post game discussion for me) someone else's power interfered with Lynx's and the result was ambiguous, something that can happen in a plethora of role interactions, that does not make his role PM in any way a lie.

[Bookitty]

Okay, Copper: Explain to me the point of making the reveal ambiguous when the Role PM is not?

Why would you design a role that essentially undermines the sensor role and then tell everyone about it by being deliberately ambiguous in your wording of the flip? How does that scumrole make sense? How does it even help scum?

I already said I think I may be the lynch for today. If CoA lives through the night and if he is town, at least he won't be wasting what may be his only investigative shot. At a minimum it would preserve more useful powers for town.

[copper223]

@Boo
What is the point of giving town a role and giving scum a counter? You give both factions a chance to get an advantage if they manage to outmaneuver the opposition, that is the definition of balance.

It does not negate Lynx's role, it still offers information but less than if Lynx had managed to get himself lynched without revealing his intent, so scum get a mislynch and we get less information than we could have because they likely managed to place the uncheckable on the lynch, if Lynx had managed to avoid letting them know he might have had a bigger advantage, as is scum had to accept a play from town but probably could counter it somewhat.

What is the point of putting a cop and a role blocker in a game? So you can get checks as town but if scum get wise about your role they can block you every time... does that mean the cop role suddenly becomes a lie? Definitely not.

[Bookitty]

Okay. Let me line out my own thought process for you on this:

You're assuming two scum on the wagon (you were, at least. Perhaps this has changed) because of Ffery's wording. Ffery's wording is ambiguous, perhaps deliberately so.

So say I'm Scum A. I know I'm unscannable, so I get on the wagon. Then Ffery says something that makes everyone know that I'm on the wagon. That means that now I'm spotted (remember, two out of four for any townie, 50 percent. GOOD odds.) and I'm in a very small pool of people to hide in. One out of five is okay, but two out of five?

Scum killed Policy Lynch last night (there's another possible theory, but I find it a little farfetched). I wish that the jailkeep had gone on him, but that wasn't my call. They had full access to the thread and Ffery's remarks and they didn't change the kill over to the larger pool. If there were two scum-scum on that wagon, don't you think they would have? It would have been easier to hide in a larger group as two scum, but that's not what they did.

If I were unscannable scum and Ffery posted that, I would have FOR SURE noticed it and tried to optimise my chances of hiding in the groups through the nightkill choice. That didn't happen

It has nothing to do with opposing roles and everything to do with wording and how Ffery put things and how that affects scum behaviour and the value of their role abilities in this game. If you're going to out the role ability as soon as the sensor is used, it's essentially the same as saying it up front. We couldn't have analysed it prior to the flip anyway.

[copper223]

@Boo
Ok now we are back to discussing interesting points.

I see what you mean, but scum has to split 2-1 anyway so there is no inherent advantage for the non checkable, providing he exists, not being on the lynch, then we would know for sure there are 2 between the 6 left out (because the result comes back with 1 for sure on Lynx), assume they would still lynch policy, that would mean 1 in 5 and 2 in 6, we would go for the 6 and have 33% odds.

What changes like this, now we are trying to speculate if there are 2 in 5, and most players still prefer to lynch in the other 1 6 pool as the Medea votes can attest, much better odds for scum! Not only this, but we are eliminating the plays were scum manages to hide the meaning of the sensor like Ghato and you (on purpose or not) did (Ghato was also in a prime position to control the information as he said he neighborized Lynx).

So they kill the strongest know PR, they get better odds anyway than they would have by leaving the uncheckable off the wagon not to mention creating potential uncertainty and who know what town is going to swallow up today, I don't see why the Policy kill points to Ffery just making the message ambiguous on purpose.

You also have to remember the 2 5 pool are what we considered yesterday our most townie players, the two are not equal and scum can make an educated guess that most of the suspicion is going to fall on the 1 6 left out anyway.

[Bookitty]

To my knowledge there are more votes on me than on Medea. (I haven't checked.)

The other pool is actually much smaller thanks to Brantz and FTL, though. CoA is off the table completely. If CoA were scum, I think he'd be pushing like mad to try to get the votes over here instead of on the off-wagon crew. He's not doing that, so I'm actually leaning town on him by play (yeah, I was surprised too). It's irrelevant regardless because we are not lynching a claimed town investigative role.

They have KB, Medea and Tiershift. I'm still thinking Tiershift is town and COA agrees, so consider that for a moment. That's one out of two from my perspective and I'm not even on that side of the equation.

For me, the possibles on our side are Ghato, catastrophe and you. I don't read Kthxbye as scum AND he claimed a role that has been proven to be true. Could he be scum with that role? Sure, but it would be a really horribly anti-scum role to have. More info ONLY benefits town.

So my lynchable pool is this: {Medea the Alien, Krystal Bald, copper, Ghato, catastrophe}. I'm waiting for Ghato to respond to my question that I asked him to ask of Lynx. That could take a while, but since Lynx said he wanted to be neighbourised and he was, I am assuming he will be forthcoming with the answer at some point soon.

If you think I'm scum (and pretty much your whole push today has been that) AND you think there are two scum on the wagon, you're narrowing it down pretty far for town, so I'm great with being lynched. I do think the Medea lynch offers greater opportunities for town in narrowing down a smaller group since I think there are two scum on THAT side, but I think either way it's narrowed down pretty far, especially given that CoA will likely be dead or have an investigation to give. (yeah, I am thinking he's town now. I kind of hate myself.)

[Faster Than Light]

I've returned. Boy, did this game blow up.
I still think we should lynch off the wagon, between krystal and medea.

@BOO:
1. Why did you think that a failed vig shot made Cask for certain scum?
I thought he was bulletproof scum, which makes sense from a balance perspective. Either that or scum with a protective ability scum-sided.
2. Why would the fact that Brantz jailkept Cask last night negate that read?
It doesn't, really, and I still have fair suspicion of Cask, but Brantz claim means CoA possibly is not a scum-role to counterbalance mine.
3. Did you consider bulletproof when consulting with Metal Sonic?
Yes. I was unsure of if we should claim or not because of the info available to us.
4. Why did you say that it was a guilty, more or less?
Between CoA's play, my failed kill on him, and the fact that he continued to insist on me being a rolecop (weird) and that he had no passives (like bulletproof), it felt way too suspect. Also, I like to go all-in on players who I think are scum, even if I don't have a guilty. Conviction is important.


Boo, I -really- -really- don't want you to be scum this game. :/

[Catastrophe]

OK that's two people now who have said that Kthx's role has been confirmed. What am I missing? How has it been confirmed?

--tool.

[Bookitty]

@tool: Kthx claimed a role I have had previously and that I know that Ffery has seen. While he is alive, the entire role PM is flipped for dead people, not just alignment and rolename.

We've seen that happen twice now. That's why his role (but not his alignment) is confirmed.

It's a pretty anti-scum power to have if Kthx was scum, though.

@Varsoon: No worries there. But I might be the best lynch for today. I'm still trying to figure out the pros and cons of me vs. Medea.

[copper223]

@Boo
I'd rather not mislynch you if you are town to begin with, and who knows if I am right, my arguments make more sense to me but that's why we have other people to judge the merits of both. As far as I know it's just me myself and I voting for you at the moment, medea has 3 or 4.

From my pov you are forwarding scum agenda, that's why I think you may be scum, some of the things you brought up also make very little sense and in some posts it looks like you are arguing a position you have to keep rather than one you know to be true, but if I had to go on gut or past experience with Boo I might still say town, I don't know if you play similarly as scum and if I can make that call based on that.

[Catastrophe]

The role could have been given to him as a fakeclaim; I don't buy that his role is real just because fferyllt has used it before.

Is the full role PM not what we would normally get in a UPick game where lots of people have multiple PRs complete with flavor? I kind of thought we would normally get that.

And I see the loss of role info upon flips as more anti-town than anti-scum. Scum loses the knowledge of what PRs have been killed; town loses the ability to know whether scum is claiming the role of a dead player.

[Bookitty]

The role could have been given to him as a fakeclaim; I don't buy that his role is real just because fferyllt has used it before.

1. Is the full role PM not what we would normally get in a UPick game where lots of people have multiple PRs complete with flavor? I kind of thought we would normally get that.

2. And I see the loss of role info upon flips as more anti-town than anti-scum. Scum loses the knowledge of what PRs have been killed; town loses the ability to know whether scum is claiming the role of a dead player.

1. I don't know. In previous U-Picks I didn't get that. Kthxbye claimed it before any flips, so there is no way he could have known it would be the case at that point if it was a fakeclaim. It would be an odd fakeclaim.

2. Please rephrase. I think you're saying the same thing as me while disagreeing with me. This confuses me.