Open 642 - The Woodshed - Game Over

[innocentvillager]

Alpaca, explain your leaning townread on me? You tried to refute some of my posts, yet you call me town, why?

[BTD6_maker]

1 I think you need to be careful about how you read into things if this is actually your honest process.

2 I had an existing wolf read on ranger, saw a specific behavior as wolfy, and my comment connected the two after seeing ranger was guilty of it. Thinking that's a meta read is super weird; I feel like what I meant was obvious.

3) I'll go back and look.

4) THE POINT is that breeding apathy is anti town, and as soon as crap like "well u can still scum hunt" becomes acceptable voting rationalization, then scum hunting is near impossible, because it's easy for wolves to hide their insincerity. Votes should always have reasons, those reasons should be aligned towards finding wolves, and through that process, sincere townies and insincere wolves can be found. Mafia 101.

1 and 2: I understand what you mean now. When I was actually making the read I assumed the sarcasm was due to meta but apparently not.

4: I agree when that is the ONLY rationale. Otherwise you could, for example, have a very strong scumread on someone but must still be prepared for the possibility of a mislynch (as I did). In that case it is also necessary to minimise damage done by mislynching, which is in most games accomplished by asking for a claim. In this game this damage is reduced further.

For example, suppose someone claims PR in a closed game. You have to have an extremely strong scumread and be very sure that they are fakeclaiming before you hammer them. Now suppose they claim VT. You still need to be fairly sure that they are scum, but not as much as if they claimed PR. Now suppose (as in this game) that they claimed Tree. The penalty for mislynching is reduced still further so you can be less sure (but still fairly sure) that they are scum before hammering (as I did with a roughly 70% scumread). Ranger had a 95% scumread so would certainly be willing to lynch and accept the risk of them flipping Tree. This was how I interpreted it.

It's clear that if you are Town I am interpreting things differently than you.

[mhsmith0]

1/2 that's still a really bizarre interpretation. I'm skeptical it was real, but I'll at least mull it over.

4 the issue is that "oh it's OK if we mislynch, they can still help us" is an anti-town attitude to spread, and I'm pretty sure Ranger knows this. Could it (as referenced in 466) have been a mistake or careless wording or not thinking things through or one of those "I'm town so I'll just say whatever off the top of my head" moments? Sure. But Ranger's pretty competent, and I'm more inclined to believe it to be a deliberate thing than a mistake. Smoking gun? No. A reasonable part of the case? Yes.

PS

It's clear that if you are Town I am interpreting things differently than you.

If you're town I'd say this is very clear.

[mhsmith0]

Some other notes on your 852...

1) Given that what you cited criticized Ranger both for the "100%" bit on IV (which you apparently agree was bad given your comment) and the self-vote, I'm not sure why you'd think the self-vote by itself made it "an easy wagon to jump on". Self-voting is anti-town behavior, that town!Ranger absolutely should know better than (among other things, it's explicit in the IC guidelines http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... _a_good_IC ). So, again, I'm highly skeptical that this is just town!Ranger screwing up.

2) Notably, before i subbed in, the game had largely petered out, and while Ranger was the largest wagon (see 459, there wasn't any real momentum or push behind it. M&M had moved on to a vote whip on Alpaca (451), IV was complaining about the lack of life in the thread (450), etc. So despite her self-voting stunt, at the time I subbed in, Ranger wasn't in serious danger of getting lynched (even more so given that shotty town read Ranger (possibly for this?) at 427). So if the idea behind the self-voting stunt was to derail any potential "lynch Ranger" momentum and make the town lazy and/or confused, honestly it seems to have worked.

[AlpacaAlpaca]

Alpaca, explain your leaning townread on me? You tried to refute some of my posts, yet you call me town, why?

Sorry just a joke, I like to make some bad jokes every now and than and see how many people read it and get it but sometimes they get taken seriously.

[mhsmith0]

Alpaca, explain your leaning townread on me? You tried to refute some of my posts, yet you call me town, why?

Sorry just a joke, I like to make some bad jokes every now and than and see how many people read it and get it but sometimes they get taken seriously.

A good way to be excused for a "joke" is to produce enough content to make the "joke" stand out.

A bad way to be excused for a "joke" is to bury it in the middle of what looks like your attempt at genuine content.

Why should we believe this was a joke? Can you point to any similar examples of a BS read dumped in the middle of what was otherwise seemingly content (i.e. similar posts in completed games)?

[AlpacaAlpaca]

I have only completed three games on this site but I wouldn't even look through one to try and prove that was a joke. You are free to think of it as whatever you want but explain to me how you think that I would not know that IV had been lynched D1. Like I would have to have completely forgotten about this game and than when I came back just read the last 2 pages and made a post. the biggest thing that has happened this game so far was probably that lynch. And if I really didn't remember he had been lynched what would that mean? Probably that I am town since scum would be actually interested in who is dead and who isn't and let me tell you I am not smart enough to have slipped that into my post as a fake town slip and if you don't believe that than you can check out my completed scum game http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=66416 post 914 was an exceptional show of intelligence on my part

[Quaroath]

Replacing Shotty due to the ban.

Deadline will be 72 hour from the replacement joining the game.

Still looking. We've had A LOT of replacements, so if you know anyone that is looking that will stick send em my way!

[Ranger]

This game is cursed.

[mhsmith0]

This game is cursed.

Now this I can actually agree with.

[mhsmith0]

@mod: kappa prod? >48 hours since his v/la ended

[innocentvillager]

i think I'm inclined to lean town on Alpaca's rxn test and explanation of that

[Quaroath]

Prodded Kappy, Titus, and Town Mafioso

[Titus]

My bad. Was I'll.

*waits on replacements*

[BTD6_maker]

Sorry. My Internet was down for some time.

By the way, Mhsmith, the IC guidelines are specifically for Newbie games, where there is virtually never any reason for Town to self-vote. Here it could possibly be useful in very specific situations, such as turning yourself into a nigh-Deathproof confTown player. Of course, this comes with the hefty penalty of costing Town a mislynch but theoretically it is possible (but rare) that this helps Town. Add this to the fact that Ranger promised to get lynched and you can see some reasons for the self-vote. In fact, Ranger explicitly said it was "not optimal, but viable".

[mhsmith0]

Sorry. My Internet was down for some time.

By the way, Mhsmith, the IC guidelines are specifically for Newbie games, where there is virtually never any reason for Town to self-vote. Here it could possibly be useful in very specific situations, such as turning yourself into a nigh-Deathproof confTown player. Of course, this comes with the hefty penalty of costing Town a mislynch but theoretically it is possible (but rare) that this helps Town. Add this to the fact that Ranger promised to get lynched and you can see some reasons for the self-vote. In fact, Ranger explicitly said it was "not optimal, but viable".

If Ranger had really strong reads and was simply not believed by the town, then "fine I'll kill myself and show you I'm telling the truth that way" is a plausible town perspective (even if I think it's sub-optimal). But "I don't really have reads, so I guess let's just kill me and then, uh, I guess we'll scum hunt tomorrow" (not what she said but kinda the gist of the idea)... how does that even work as a town perspective?

"Don't self-vote as town" is a clear tenet of the IC guide for good reason. Violating it in this game for town!Ranger would require a good reason. Said good reason does not exist, or if it does, I utterly fail to see it. Like, if town!Ranger were to get lynched D2, it would be FAR more pro-town for that lynch to be the result of other peoples votes/reads (so the town can evaluate those votes and see which are likely from town and which from wolves).

So here's the question: what specific pro-town objective does ranger's self-vote achieve, that active and normal scum-hunting would not? Especially given the known fact that if she's a tree, she can be primed anyway tonight (and if she gets primed without getting doused, then she's even deader than if she was just stumped). And the fact that "self-voting is scummy" is a pretty easy vote justification for players of either alignment. How exactly does this stunt help the town?

[Ranger]

My body sucks.

Mod: V/LA yesterday, today, and tomorrow to recover.

I hate feeling this sick every couple of weeks or so, but I can't magically wave a wand and make the sickness go away.

[BTD6_maker]

I never said it was pro-Town to self-vote. I said that it is possible but extremely rare that self-voting is pro-Town. In this case, even if I had promised to get lynched, if I were in Ranger's position I would let Town lynch me and read my wagon rather than self-voting.

What I knew, though, was that Ranger thought she had a reason. That was my point in that post. I fail to see why she self-voted (as do you) but only Ranger knows why she thinks it to be pro-Town (unless she is actually scum and thought her lynch was inevitable, trying to benefit scum by self-voting).

[mhsmith0]

I never said it was pro-Town to self-vote. I said that it is possible but extremely rare that self-voting is pro-Town. In this case, even if I had promised to get lynched, if I were in Ranger's position I would let Town lynch me and read my wagon rather than self-voting.

What I knew, though, was that Ranger thought she had a reason

. That was my point in that post. I fail to see why she self-voted (as do you) but only Ranger knows why she thinks it to be pro-Town (unless she is actually scum and thought her lynch was inevitable, trying to benefit scum by self-voting).

1) Why did you know this?

2) Why do you continue to choose not to deal with the possibility that by self-voting she INTENTIONALLY tried to create a situation where she would NOT get lynched?

3) What pro-town outcome can you think of? "Well I'm sure there was one" is an incredible cop-out. Put some thought into it. Can YOU think of any pro-town outcome of this? If you cannot, then you need to demand Ranger explain wtf she was doing and why (or you need to conclude that there was no pro-town reasoning, which then leads ot the obvious next step conclusion that she's mafia).

Note that this sort of thing is what most people would call "scum hunting". I'm fully aware that I'm being condescending, but if you start to do stuff like this (as opposed to dumping out naked reads), then maybe you won't get quick-lynched so often as both alignments, and will better be able to show your teammates you're town when you're town (takes off IC-wannabe hat).

[Quaroath]

Looking for a kappy replacement as well, as he has left the sight.

[mhsmith0]

Actually...

@Ranger: you self-voted in longnight, right? Do/have you ever self-voted as town otherwise? Is this something that's potentially just a weird part of your town meta?

[Titus]

Game needs heads.

[Ranger]

I'm sorry.
I'm too tired to focus properly, and I DO need to get sleep.
So this game will have to wait until tomorrow.

[Ranger]

I'm taking a break from mafia.
Swear to god, if ONE little time of things going wrong causes me to be unable to keep up with my games

this badly

, this consistently, I'm clearly in no shape to play.

This game has less than one page of posts.
So I can quickly answer mhsmith.
There was another game I self-voted: shortnight.
It had the same mechanic. I actually self-hammered there. And that game, I took the correct shot. It's just that for the second scum, I was wrong and unable to influence the game anyway even if I hadn't been wrong.

[mhsmith0]

@Ranger: no rush (not like the game is really moving right now), but can you clarify why it'd be pro-town to self-vote in this game? Especially given that it seems like both times you self-voted as town, it (from what I can tell) worked out badly?