In post 855, beeboy wrote:You can't link 25 mason fake claim games and think even as town I should care about this lol.
Well this shows you didn't click any of those links or even read the post because it wasn't 25 mason fakeclaims and I said as much in the post where I gave the links. I literally said in that post it wasn't 25 mason fakeclaims. Heck in the majority of the games that had the mason claims, I actually had a mason-like power or a damn good reason to fake one. (I.e. in the Normal game, as a Disloyal Messenger, setting it up as a gamewide gambit to catch scum since if scum got my message and corroborated my claim in-thread, they'd be caught, which did pay dividends since on the last gameday the last scum DID get caught by my role and was outed scum from it. So I had a damn good excuse for the fakeclaim in that game, to catch scum, and I did.)
In post 856, beeboy wrote:Like idk your just like a player like Trasncend and the others who like to fake claim to gain leverage.
I don't.
In about 80% of my total games, I realclaim in the entirety.
Of the 20% remaining, none are scumgames (the entirety of the scumgames are realclaims), and the reasons for not realclaiming in my entirety have damn-good, often self-evident, reasons for backing them, e.g. where realclaiming is detrimental to the town but holding some info back can do nothing but good things.
Fakeclaims are explicitly gambits designed to put the scum at a disadvantage, but have self-evident reasons backing them and are backed by a grain of truth, e.g. claiming bulletproof as macho or macho as bulletproof being a deception meant to either keep the scum from killing you or the inverse of making scum waste a kill on you, where you're telling the truth about having a modifier that adjusts your susceptibility to the kill but where explaining it truthfully wouldn't do the town any good. That is the one and only type of fakeclaim I will ever make as town and there's never an appropriate situation for a true fakeclaim as scum.
And this is a stance of mine that is incredibly well-documented. It's there in MD, it's there in endless number of games as both alignments, where I as town and scum alike say I don't fakeclaim as scum, where the scumgames do have trueclaims to them every single time. It's not a trust-tell because I COULD change the stance at any time--but it's long-standing and established because as scum it's always fucking moronic for me to fakeclaim especially since I can't fakeclaim worth a damn and having the truth on your side gives a level of sincerity that cannot be faked.
Regardless of your alignment, the truth is your greatest weapon--knowing you are in the right is something which cannot be faked. I can gambit as town, sure, claiming masons when I'm technically not the role mason. But these gambits still have elements of truth to them and self-explanatory reasons for them along with obvious end dates to them if need be. Gambits that have low-to-zero risk, but medium-to-high reward, and which are still holding to basic truths, just often...slightly adjusted for the sake of the gambit.
If I were going to gambit here, the gambit would've been "Deimos and I are actually masons". I'd lie and say that Deimos's early push on me was mason-distancing, and that behind the scenes, we were having disagreements with how to handle it, with Deimos wanting distancing but me being flagrantly obvious about it because that's just what I do. (And that would have truth behind it because behind the scenes, Deimos and I DID disagree. I wanted to treat the neighborhood as a masonry from the onset. Deimos was incredibly suspicious of me and thought I was probably scum until he was literally handed a result that told him I couldn't be.)
But I decided that lying and committing to a false mason claim would've done more harm than good here because while we are basically a masonry,
technically speaking
, we are not one, and that to save Deimos while Deimos is absent I needed to tell the entirety of the truth--which I have.
Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:16 pm
by mastina
In post 861, Starbuck wrote:I'm still not liking your consistent dismissal of Panzer either.
My consistent dismissal of Panzer is valid and justified; again I will reiterate. Talk to the people in the Stop Being Banned! thread about Panzer as a mafia player. See what stances and opinions
they
hold about Panzer, the actions they explain he has done, the links they can provide to his play, and then after having done so go back here and tell me that my stance is in any way unjustified. Suffice to say, YES, I have good reasons for holding that stance.
Beyond that, I happen to legitimately think he IS scum because he literally claimed my auction power as his own and I don't believe his third party claim. His play in of itself is largely NAI I will fully admit that much but I feel my suspicion on him has merit.
Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:18 pm
by mastina
In post 862, beeboy wrote:It's not scum just because it's fake. It's just something mastina does to leverage other players in games as both alignments.
False, because as has been established: I don't fakeclaim as scum. I
could
, which is what keeps it from being a trust tell, but I don't, and haven't.
I can literally link to every single scumgame of mine onsite as proof of this statement.
But people will keep lying and saying I do it as both alignments because I have too many games and all of them are lengthy so they will keep going "I'm not going to read all of that to confirm, it's self-meta anyway and is thus worthless!!!"
When they are claiming something that is factually incorrect, and provably and demonstrably so.
Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:31 pm
by mastina
In post 864, Starbuck wrote:And 796 just made my eyes roll into the back of my head. Freaking seriously on this shit? Then the OMGUS on Panzer in 800 is just the topping on the cake. Given your complete dismissal of anything that he says and keeping him in your scum reads, that vote feels personal and I'm not here for it.
My vote on Panzer is in no way OMGUS. Panzer has been a scumread of mine the entire game. I switched my vote to him for one simple reason:
I don't believe in Not Voting, barring special mechanical reasons not to (i.e. there's obviously a damn good reason to not vote in lylo).
The two universal weapons of the town are their Voice and their VOTE. It's my opinion that not using one is JUST as wasteful as not using the other--so parking a vote in Not Voting is a complete and total, utter, waste.
So when I want to take my vote off of someone, I NEED to place it on someone else.
I was removing my vote from the Battle Mage slot, and my reasons why I've since explained (tho I admit in the post I switched votes I didn't give the details since I was rushing it). I no longer scumread the slot--and no longer scumreading the slot, my vote needed to move to another slot.
Panzer was the obvious choice as a game-long scumread. I didn't want to vote catboi for similar reasons, I didn't want to vote Titus/Shiro either, literally the only other vote option was beeboy, and my thoughts on beeboy were still coagulating at the time, I wasn't sure I was comfortable voting beeboy at the time. (I've since decided that, yes, I am okay with voting beeboy, but as I have said before: I only have one vote, so I can't vote both at the same time, and Panzer is the stronger scumread.)
In post 864, Starbuck wrote:If you dislike her this much, why didn't you /in ? I've been standing up for you because I don't like her personal attacks towards you, but this selfishness can't be had either. You can't be like "well if she's still here, I'm not gonna be around." That's super unsportsmanlike and rude to the rest of the player list. I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, but you're only hurting the other 11 of us by doing this. Not to mention how super lame it is.
Guess what Starbuck? This from Panzer is Panzer being
extra extra nice
, practically suspiciously so in fact. Yes. THIS from Panzer is him being EXTRA NICE.
Not fucking joking when I said that if you talked to people from the Stop Getting Banned thread about Panzer's antics as a mafia player, that my stance on him is comparatively generous and lenient of his antics. This game is Panzer
at his absolute best behavior
. Panzer can, has, and does, get much much worse than what he is in this game.
I have very low expectations from Panzer as a player in games. That doesn't mean my 'attack' on him is personal though, because I legitimately feel I have good reasons for actually feeling he's scum this game. The majority of his play I fully acknowledge is presumably NAI--but the remainder I think IS scum-indicative.
I think his claim is scum; I think his play does, loosely, indicate scum, in the little areas it indicates anything beyond his personality.
The idea of "mastina is attacking Panzer purely because she doesn't like him" is entirely false. Yes, I have low standards of him, I feel justifiably so, but I also feel that there's genuine reasons to believe he is scum.
Posted: Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:38 pm
by mastina
In post 865, Starbuck wrote:One of his first posts was a gif of Captain Hook locking away Tinkerbell.
Deimos was explicitly breadcrumbing that he was trying to hook/bait me, the TITLE FAIRY, into a trap, more or less, and this is something that is evident with access to my PT too. Deimos didn't begin the game knowing I was town and to the contrary, posted everything he did earlygame in-thread and in the PT under the belief I was scum.
I fully expect, even, that Deimos thought his auction power would expose me as scum. Look at that image knowing that Deimos's auction power reveals my alignment and it becomes pretty obvious what Deimos was thinking; he was thinking that once auction ended, he could out me as scum for free, but then he got blindsided by me actually being town.
As for defending Deimos when Deimos is gone.
Deimos was being wagoned, we have one day until deadline, Deimos was prodded and I suspect siteflaked so will be replaced, yet by the time the mod would announce Deimos would be replaced, due to the deadline, Deimos was looking an awful lot like he was going to get deadline-lynched with nobody except for me apparently aware that Deimos's absence was due to having flaked. Deimos, who I'm convinced is town, was at risk of being lynched, with no chance to claim for himself due to being replaced.
By necessity, I needed to step in and do so for him, at least to some extent. The exact nature of Deimos's non-auction power I want to leave the decision on claiming to the holder of the slot, due to the nature of the power being something that they the user should have full discretion over the usage of in my opinion. But I could claim the auction power freely due to it already having been used.
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 1:49 am
by catboi
In post 865, Starbuck wrote:I have a whole ISO full of content that could fix that, but no "let's give Starbuck a pass thanks to HoldenGolden." That just sounds like you're too lazy to go read and form an opinion.
I'm not lazy (okay, maybe a little), it's just that the whole {quote} {comment} catchup format is inherently hard for me to read in a game sense (and yes, I know I'm doing it here). Do you think I am purposefully avoiding commenting on your posts rather than making something up about them?
In post 863, catboi wrote:The accusations of "plagiarism" are so weird, this is the same thing Tipsy was fending off earlier. Those are my own thoughts as I was reading the thread? Who am I supposed to be ripping off and why? I'm good enough to fake reasoning as scum anyway, so it's not like it matters, but that just makes it all the more bizarre.
I had a feeling like I've read it before. I should do a side-by-side of yours, mastina's, and Tipsy's read lists and see what's catching me up there.
I find the accusation I've stolen mastina's reads deeply offensive when I'm not even bothering to read her posts anymore. I remember her first readlist being pretty bad and that's about it.
In post 868, jks wrote:For what it's worth, I expect there's going to be a bit of role overlap in this game (I think it's role madness and I think there's probably more than one other overlap), so I don't think the fact that two people have something in common role-wise is an indication that one must be scum. This isn't like a situation where there's a counter-claim.
(And if it isn't obvious what the followup questions here are, "why did you vote Deimos27 when Titus asked you to?" // "why don't you have any gripes about Titus leading that wagon?")
[/quote]null-scum, I don't care because we have something like a day until deadline, I will vote anyone I don't have a townread on in self-preservation without regard to the wagon composition.
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:19 am
by Tipsy
TITUS FLASHWAGON?
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:33 am
by Starbuck
In post 880, catboi wrote:I find the accusation I've stolen mastina's reads
I never said the words "catboi stole mastina's reads." Don't put words in my mouth. However,I feel like I read something similar already in the thread. It could have just been your own posts for all I know. Hence, why I said I need to go back and see what was pinging me.
In post 880, catboi wrote:I find the accusation I've stolen mastina's reads
I never said the words "catboi stole mastina's reads." Don't put words in my mouth. However,I feel like I read something similar already in the thread. It could have just been your own posts for all I know. Hence, why I said I need to go back and see what was pinging me.
૮( ᵒ̌▱๋ᵒ̌ )ა You used the word "plagiarism", which, last I checked, has a pretty specific definition!
In post 862, beeboy wrote:It's not scum just because it's fake. It's just something mastina does to leverage other players in games as both alignments.
False, because as has been established: I don't fakeclaim as scum. I
could
, which is what keeps it from being a trust tell, but I don't, and haven't.
I can literally link to every single scumgame of mine onsite as proof of this statement.
But people will keep lying and saying I do it as both alignments because I have too many games and all of them are lengthy so they will keep going "I'm not going to read all of that to confirm, it's self-meta anyway and is thus worthless!!!"
When they are claiming something that is factually incorrect, and provably and demonstrably so.
Didn't you link 4 earlier this game?
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:05 am
by beeboy
I don't really want to partake in this debate, sorry. If Deismos gets more pressure then talk to the other people on the wagon on how you faking results previously is good for town.
I just don't have the mental energy to parse walls about a topic like this. Person who thinks fake results are toxic thinks someone who like to use fake results cannot be trusted. I love fake claims, I do them still. Fake results on the other hand just fuck up the game because a lot of players can look at information like X is conf town and leverage their entire game around it. It doesn't sit right with me to do make a play I think is slightly above EV knowing if I am wrong it just kills the game for someone.
You aren't persuading me on this during the course of a game when I also have to discern your alignment while reading your posts. Can you just accept my stance or nah?
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:07 am
by beeboy
Idk I view a major difference between bluffing and fake mason claims and so on.
Their is a reason I view my older play as incredibly toxic and I always resigned my fake claims within the first day phase.
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:14 am
by beeboy
@Starbuck I forgot you could have assumed that game was multiball day 1. Idk I need to think about it a bit more and read your ISO in your private PT to see what your perspective on the game was.
Maybe I am constantly fishing for the aggro play style you showed in the first game we ever played together but I might not ever get that again.
I am just stumped on reads tbh and I am not enjoying this game nearly enough to want to dive into ISOs and try to improve them.
I kinda just want to lynch Mastina but I don't think I am getting that today but let's see.
VOTE: Mastina
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:02 am
by Tatsuya Kaname
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:06 am
by Starbuck
In post 887, beeboy wrote:Maybe I am constantly fishing for the aggro play style you showed in the first game we ever played together but I might not ever get that again.
I mean, that had a lot to do with dealing with a super toxic player in my first game back on site who is now perma-banned.
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:07 am
by Starbuck
Oh shit, catboi's in Tuxedo's slot. Maybe that's where the oddity is coming from for me.
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:07 am
by beeboy
What do you think of the Deimos claim that he is loved so he takes another vote to be lynched but it also works in lylo?
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:09 am
by Starbuck
In post 891, beeboy wrote:What do you think of the Deimos claim that he is loved so he takes another vote to be lynched but it also works in lylo?
Deimos or mastina?
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:17 am
by Donkey Kong
Ouch! Poked yet again by the 10 foot pole. Is it really a problem if I nap for a couple of days? Leave me alone, dude...
Hey, orangey-lady! That's gonna have to be what I call you since you never gave me your name - it's not too late for that by the way! Anyway, what are you doing voting for mastina? Isn't she like one of the leaders of this cult? She even gave a lecture a little while ago, don't tell me you really think she's doing this good work for you dudes while also being a double agent? Stuff like that only happens in the movies.
You should vote for the masked man who seems to have transformed into a cat person. He seems dishonest. That's who I'm voting for! Also, what happens to the person who gets the most votes? I don't actually know...
Posted: Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:23 am
by catboi
UNVOTE: VOTE: mastina
In post 893, Donkey Kong wrote:Ouch! Poked yet again by the 10 foot pole. Is it really a problem if I nap for a couple of days? Leave me alone, dude...
Hey, orangey-lady! That's gonna have to be what I call you since you never gave me your name - it's not too late for that by the way! Anyway, what are you doing voting for mastina? Isn't she like one of the leaders of this cult? She even gave a lecture a little while ago, don't tell me you really think she's doing this good work for you dudes while also being a double agent? Stuff like that only happens in the movies.
You should vote for the masked man who seems to have transformed into a cat person. He seems dishonest. That's who I'm voting for! Also, what happens to the person who gets the most votes? I don't actually know...
I did not link four scumgames where I fakeclaimed. I linked to four scumgames, out of 25. And
in the post that I did so
, I very specifically said that in any of the games where I claimed mason, regardless of how legitimate the claim was, I was not scum.
I linked to 25 games with a "pick which four of these are my scumgames". Those 25 games were the last 25 games I've played solo on-site, every game I've played solo onsite in the last two years. And it so happens that in the last two years, there's four solo scum games and 21 solo town games. The challenge was to figure out which of the four games were the scum games from just a brief, 30-second, skim of the iso of each game, to show that there's a night and day difference between my towngame and my scumgame.
In post 885, beeboy wrote:If Deismos gets more pressure then talk to the other people on the wagon on how you faking results previously is good for town.
I've never faked a result in my life. I have fakeclaimed! I have never faked a result. Never claimed a cop inno when not a cop, never claimed a cop guilty when not a cop. The closest I have gotten is The Mason Gambit, but claiming masons with someone isn't a fake result claim, it's either a realclaim or a fakeclaim, with no result attached to it.
Considering you're probably scum and you're literally
voting a slot that is conftown
? Something that you're taking advantage of the absence of the slot that would verify it to push me on, when if the Deimos slot were filled they would instantly confirm it and back my claim up, when all you'd have to do is wait for the replacement and then they would confirm me?
2: Deimos has apparently siteflaked as his last visit to the site was three days ago--in light of his slot inevitably needing to be replaced, but due to his prod timer until replacement technically being after deadline, can we have deadline halted while you search for a replacement?