Newbie 2057: Mars! - End!

[six pomegranate seeds]

I take back when I said maybe you are scum - that was an emotional reaction rather than a read I made using my gut and my brain.

I will let you solve uninterrupted go ahead.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I'm likely done making any reads for the night but will check back in to see if anyone else posts.

[skitter30]

ok thank you, i'm sorry too, i also got a little heated when i shouldn't have

this is where i'm at:
-vc's were not illuminating
- i'm having a hard time synthesizing creative/wheme into a coherent team. therefore, i want to reread, once again, pooky's wagon, the claim, and daystart again to try to put the pieces together

basically my conclusion rn is that i don't have a satisfactory conclusion and i need to put some more thought into this

to clarify this does not inherently mean that i'm scumreading you, it means that i'm nowhere near comfortable with this solve yet to put a vote down and i need to do a little more work

[skitter30]

I take back when I said maybe you are scum - that was an emotional reaction rather than a read I made using my gut and my brain.

I will let you solve uninterrupted go ahead.

same i also started getting a little riled up, my apologies

[skitter30]

and tbh the whole emotional response to my analysis is probably +town?
maybe i should just assume you aren't, like, godtier scum and can't/wouldn't fake that just there
idk

[skitter30]

this is a surprisingly hard game and maybe i'm jsut like super overthinking it and it's just wheme + creative

[skitter30]

and tbh the whole emotional response to my analysis is probably +town?
maybe i should just assume you aren't, like, godtier scum and can't/wouldn't fake that just there
idk

(i hope this wasn't an offensive thing to say. if you're scum here you're clearly, very, very, very good at this. i'm just thinking that maybe the simple explanation is that you're really town just pouring your heart and soul into it vs. someone who's very skilled at faking emotion, analysis, and on-the-spot thinking. like maybe i should just assume this is all genuine and not get too worried about the musings of a paranoid brain)

[Kazyan]

I'll ask Kaz whether Skitter feels town here.

What Skitter is telling us is that, despite everyone agreeing in the miselim, she wants to go through every single interaction and make sure the solve fits. We also know she's not just stalling for time to get a no-elim day, because she explicitly brought up not losing track of Creative. So, yeah, this is town. But again, with Seeds and Skitter being very town, I keep bringing myself back to Whemestar because he's the only other option.

With his being so hard to read and laconic, I get the feeling that his posts are just...kind of random, maybe? That may be why it's so hard to produce a narrative for Whemestar, if he's just reacting in-the-moment. Maybe we can't figure out what his plans are if he doesn't have a plan.

[Kazyan]

*miselim assuming scum!Skitter. See, this is why I don't hyperpost very much; I use imprecise wording.

[six pomegranate seeds]

and tbh the whole emotional response to my analysis is probably +town?
maybe i should just assume you aren't, like, godtier scum and can't/wouldn't fake that just there
idk

(i hope this wasn't an offensive thing to say. if you're scum here you're clearly, very, very, very good at this. i'm just thinking that maybe the simple explanation is that you're really town just pouring your heart and soul into it vs. someone who's very skilled at faking emotion, analysis, and on-the-spot thinking. like maybe i should just assume this is all genuine and not get too worried about the musings of a paranoid brain)

I think I can be pretty good at faking analysis and on-the-spot thinking. I've had some pretty good scum games on my home site where I've surprised good players when the game ended with me as scum. It's probably much different than being scum in these forum games though, idk how good I'd be at that. I'm better at being able to sound like I'm spewing town as scum than plotting out a course of MLs with my partner in night chat which to me seems more important in these forum games.

Speaking honestly I don't think I fake emotion as scum much, if ever. I went through a phase where I would throw games as mafia because I just didn't really care about being mafia, I much prefer being town and I didn't feel like lying to people. But then other players expressed to me that they were upset with me for ruining games so I started trying harder. I think for a lot of players it's true that people more commonly get emotional when they are town. That's true for me as well.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I'll ask Kaz whether Skitter feels town here.

What Skitter is telling us is that, despite everyone agreeing in the miselim, she wants to go through every single interaction and make sure the solve fits. We also know she's not just stalling for time to get a no-elim day, because she explicitly brought up not losing track of Creative. So, yeah, this is town. But again, with Seeds and Skitter being very town, I keep bringing myself back to Whemestar because he's the only other option.

With his being so hard to read and laconic, I get the feeling that his posts are just...kind of random, maybe? That may be why it's so hard to produce a narrative for Whemestar, if he's just reacting in-the-moment. Maybe we can't figure out what his plans are if he doesn't have a plan.

It's good you think she's town. I think trying hard is not very alignment indicative - it would seem more sus for skitter to just show up at night and say "well I think this is basically over let's quick hammer!" than to do what she's doing now.

But I think the reasons I want to TR skitter is that creative brought up the idea he is a mason with her d1, that Creative posted an illegal incomplete ISO when it feels like he could have asked her for one if he was in a mafia chat with her (maybe this is a bit NAI if he just posted without asking), and I think most of all Andante is now confirmed town and she said that Skitter and I were TvT. I think the andante night kill supports the skitter town case as well and I lived for scumming you kaz and skitter, although I had revealed to skitter how I interpret night kills and that technically can be a gambit to get me to TR scum skitter. These seem like real reasons to me.

I'll think about it more tomorrow.

[six pomegranate seeds]

I hope you are a town Kaz. I will be sad if you are mafia.

Good night.

[Kazyan]

It's good you think she's town. I think trying hard is not very alignment indicative - it would seem more sus for skitter to just show up at night and say "well I think this is basically over let's quick hammer!" than to do what she's doing now.

But I think the reasons I want to TR skitter is that creative brought up the idea he is a mason with her d1, that Creative posted an illegal incomplete ISO when it feels like he could have asked her for one if he was in a mafia chat with her (maybe this is a bit NAI if he just posted without asking), and I think most of all Andante is now confirmed town and she said that Skitter and I were TvT. I think the andante night kill supports the skitter town case as well and I lived for scumming you kaz and skitter, although I had revealed to skitter how I interpret night kills and that technically can be a gambit to get me to TR scum skitter. These seem like real reasons to me.

I'll think about it more tomorrow.

Regarding paragraph 1, that seems kinda WIFOMy? I still don't know how to evaluate that. It seems within Skitter's scumrange.

Regarding paragraph 2, I do think that's a valid +town argument for Skitter. Creative could have posted without asking, since he had a high post volume, but merely eliminating that asking-of possibility make Skitter townier from a Bayesian probability perspective.

Regarding paragraph 3, good night.

[WhemeStar]

ok im here

[WhemeStar]

Why would I take claim tracker to get samcro lynched as scum if it meant that I was going to be lynched next day, I would have just had my sum partner tie it at EoD and then killed someone on my wagon to be able to easy eliminate samcro and get a win. At this point as scum I would have given up and admitted it but I'm not scum so I haven't because I don't want town to lose because I made a stupid mistake that I regretted immediately after I made it because I realized if Sam was town then we(town) would lose. My mind set was that at least one scum was hard defending Sam and I believe he would bescum and that backfired, I'm saying if you think wheme is also scum eliminate him before you attempt to eliminate me I can guarantee I am not mafia though and town will lose at EoD we had 2 miselims and mafia want me to be eliminated for a third to win, I can guarantee after the first vote on me I'll be quickhammered by scum faster than anyone can anticipate to stop it and then it will be GG and WP.

Because you thought you were going to die so you fakeclaimed to get a mislynch through.

[WhemeStar]

it

I dont make scum cases its not how I play you can read all of my games if youd like .

[WhemeStar]

Know what, I kinda just want to hammer Creative. is that a bad thought? Like, we gain something from a creative flip yes?

Thanks for your answer Kaz, was rereading this. Andante expresses they may hammer Creative.

537 Whemestar who is convinced that Creative is scum has a chance to say "YASSSSSSSSS HAMMER YAAAAASSSSSS DEW IT"

His response is instead "I haven’t really thought about what happens if creative flips town because there is no possibility for me that he does." This is not very convincing in getting Andante to hammer, she instead says lets not hammer and wait. Wheme's line also ends up making people sus of wheme instead. When skitter expresses sus on Wheme, wheme apparently doesn't really care that much about getting Creative hammered

575 "You can vote me since you aren’t gonna vote creative" I initially thought maybe that's a townie thing but for someone who is so convinced creative is scum why is that his response? Does he actually want the wagon swung onto him so it looks like creative is easy town? Creative has gotten TRs from me and skitter at this point and if SAM lives into ELO SAM is looking like an easy miselim. Idk I just feel like that's such a weird response from someone who fels they have scum on the chopping block.

If I said "YASSSSSSSSS HAMMER YAAAAASSSSSS DEW IT" I would hope you would vote me off for being super fake.

My response is me saying hey I know this dude is scum (turns out I was right!) I don't get how thats a bad response but whatever.

Im not really sure how your logic makes any sense. I want the wagon to loosen up on creative so I pressured him and made scummy posts so that I would get voted off? Why would me as scum ever do that for my partner when my partner is caught. If I didn't manage to die and wanted to push SAM the following day that would just be a huge scumtell because I have been calling him obv town all game this doesn't make any sense and I don't get what you are trying to say here.

I said if your not gonna vote creative then vote me because your vote is useless and I was confident I wasn't gonna get voted off over someone like Creative.

[WhemeStar]

I honestly had a little paranoia that Creative could be town but this particular observation makes me feel comfortable he isn't:

Skitter 31
Creative 11
seeds 65
Kaz 21
Wheme 22
Post count so far excluding the past couple of posts (I counted this up earlier this afternoon)

Creative went from top poster to ghost mode, consistent with the fact that he's just outted. I think Kaz's answer to Creative being mafia was fine, didn't lean one way or the other too much.

If his posts today aren't obvious that he gave up as scum to you then I have no idea what to tell you if your town.

[WhemeStar]

I thought it was fairly obvious who scum were but I guess not

wheme why is me?

Your reads have been very subpar this game. You've stayed close with Creative which is what I think an SE scum partner would do with a newbie in the newbie queue. I feel like you have been on the fence all game without trying to heavily jump to one side or the other. I think you've tried to focus on appearing towny this game rather than focus on finding scum. One more thing pinged me but I forgot it maybe itll come back to me.

[WhemeStar]

I'm not sure I got that much out of the skitter iso other than that everyone will TR her when she's scum lol just as I had assumed on d2.

I do still want to think this through properly I regret just insta voting SAM rather than taking my time.

My question for you guys is why did Andante die there?

I think the better question is why did you not die

[WhemeStar]

Like Seeds if your scum here I think you deserve the win because of how towny you have been. But part of me thinks this logic from you makes you scum

[six pomegranate seeds]

I'm not sure I got that much out of the skitter iso other than that everyone will TR her when she's scum lol just as I had assumed on d2.

I do still want to think this through properly I regret just insta voting SAM rather than taking my time.

My question for you guys is why did Andante die there?

I think the better question is why did you not die

I interpreted it as my expressed reads were wrong. I express some sus on skitter some on kaz andante who TRs skitter dies. My initial interpretation is that it points mainly to you or even Kaz as maf remove skitters buddy to make her a viable ML. At this point with how hard kaz is being TR by everyone I’m kind of just hoping mafia has outted that lax is town by this point by going for the pocket rather than all the town have misread him. So the kill implicates you the most since I had you as TR prior to today. But perhaps it could be that scum skitter sees kaz will be TRd status post creative flip and sees how I interpreted T3 death and kills Andante to gambit she could get a TR out of it from me specifically. Also I’m inclined to just partially take creative at his word that andante was not MLable while people have sussed me at various points in the game. I’m trying not to get paranoid about kaz so today is about deciding who I think is mafia I saw some town points on skitter so I tried scumcasing you. If I’m wrong I think town probably loses this game but I want to take more time this day - by no stretch of the imagination will I just assume I am right. Wheme what do you think about skitter saying she would have distanced more from creative had she known he would claim tracker?

[six pomegranate seeds]

Easy working day. Home early.

This game seriously goes on forever.

The reason I wanted an ISO on you wheme is that I think part of the reason I'm SRing you is that your lack of doubt is not something I have as town, as town even when I think a read is good I often feel insecure about it. You've seemed just pretty confident this game that you've been right the whole time. Maybe you just play that way as town and don't second guess yourself at all and had great reads this game.

Today I will reread the creative/wheme hammer interactions.

I will rearead Kaz and think about whether I should question my TR at all.

I will think through my reasons for TRing skitter and think about whether they are strong enough.

[WhemeStar]

Easy working day. Home early.

This game seriously goes on forever.

The reason I wanted an ISO on you wheme is that I think part of the reason I'm SRing you is that your lack of doubt is not something I have as town, as town even when I think a read is good I often feel insecure about it. You've seemed just pretty confident this game that you've been right the whole time. Maybe you just play that way as town and don't second guess yourself at all and had great reads this game.

Today I will reread the creative/wheme hammer interactions.

I will rearead Kaz and think about whether I should question my TR at all.

I will think through my reasons for TRing skitter and think about whether they are strong enough.

That’s how I play as town idk what else to say

[six pomegranate seeds]

Know what, I kinda just want to hammer Creative. is that a bad thought? Like, we gain something from a creative flip yes?

Thanks for your answer Kaz, was rereading this. Andante expresses they may hammer Creative.

537 Whemestar who is convinced that Creative is scum has a chance to say "YASSSSSSSSS HAMMER YAAAAASSSSSS DEW IT"

His response is instead "I haven’t really thought about what happens if creative flips town because there is no possibility for me that he does." This is not very convincing in getting Andante to hammer, she instead says lets not hammer and wait. Wheme's line also ends up making people sus of wheme instead. When skitter expresses sus on Wheme, wheme apparently doesn't really care that much about getting Creative hammered

575 "You can vote me since you aren’t gonna vote creative" I initially thought maybe that's a townie thing but for someone who is so convinced creative is scum why is that his response? Does he actually want the wagon swung onto him so it looks like creative is easy town? Creative has gotten TRs from me and skitter at this point and if SAM lives into ELO SAM is looking like an easy miselim. Idk I just feel like that's such a weird response from someone who fels they have scum on the chopping block.

If I said "YASSSSSSSSS HAMMER YAAAAASSSSSS DEW IT" I would hope you would vote me off for being super fake.

My response is me saying hey I know this dude is scum (turns out I was right!) I don't get how thats a bad response but whatever.

Im not really sure how your logic makes any sense. I want the wagon to loosen up on creative so I pressured him and made scummy posts so that I would get voted off? Why would me as scum ever do that for my partner when my partner is caught. If I didn't manage to die and wanted to push SAM the following day that would just be a huge scumtell because I have been calling him obv town all game this doesn't make any sense and I don't get what you are trying to say here.

I said if your not gonna vote creative then vote me because your vote is useless and I was confident I wasn't gonna get voted off over someone like Creative.

Idk maybe you are town and I'm wrong. Part of me was just thinking that Creative had been light scumming you all game but never voting you could be classic distancing. It seems like a level one thing to do. Say ur partner is sus but actually vote to save them on d1 in the pooky debacle.

Rereading hammer stuff it makes me think creative maybe claimed tracker off the cuff because I'm not sure why he waited so long to claim. You put in at E-1 3/10 7:01 pm and its 3/11 9 pmish when he fake claims. Maybe it is too risky to put your partner on E-1 for that long. I have no idea what that would feel like as mafia.

I'm thinking about skitter and creative hard aligning more. Skitter first voted sam, creative followed. Then skitter voted me and creative followed. Then skitter voted SAMCRO again and creative followed LOL. He sheeped 3 of skitters votes it was more than just 207 and 210. He was clearly self pres voting in retrospect. But idk that creative would sheep his mafia partner so hard there. It seems more like taking advantage of skitters votes.

I was rereading Andante's scum case on Kaz. I was scumming Kaz on previous day. Idk I was trying to reread things to scum Kaz but I'm really tired and will take a break.

I feel like this quote 664 "Is it bad that I just want to sheep whatever Seeds's final conclusion is? I give him like a 2% chance of being a deepwolf, tops." Just sounds townie idk. Why would a mafia just openly say I will sheep it just sounds so scummy lol. Andante said the same thing to skitter. I think this reads as anxious town imo. I also don't want to take responsibility for losing town the game with the wrong suspicion.

Also 663 "I was considering Creative/Andante, because of the "1 active, 1 inactive" thing that Creative kept bringing up. That could have been the actual Refuge In Audacity he was talking about--telling the game his entire plan. But I guess now I can take off the tinfoil hat, there." Idk stuff like this just sounds so townie. Sharing your weird theories that didn't pan out just seems townie to me. And I also took note of that comment from creative but andante just seemed too town.

523 I just don't understand why you say this "I would like for us to come to some kind of consensus on voting. I will admit, forthright now, that I am willing to hammer SAMCRO or to keep my vote parked on Creative" as mafia if you know you are voting your partner. That sounds so scummy if people figure out that Creative is mafia and you're literally like "I'll vote either I literally don't care." Your forfeiting all of the town credit you should be accruing for voting creative.

423 "If Creative somehow flipped town, it would be downright irresponsible not to immediately scumread me at that point, since I've been the one yelling about him the most." This quote I remembered actually pinging scummy in real time and does ping scummy in hindsight. If that guy who's red flips town you can go ahead and sus me. lol.

There was one other thing that made me think Kaz town actually - 72 Kaz calls out creative and creative responds by saying "That's quite ok, because it means you're acting kinda solvey." This doesn't really read as distancing, I don't think that creative would act buddy buddy with his partner after his partner susses him.

There was also a moment where Kaz admitted relief that he thought I was TRing him 637 "I don't see how that's a townslip but I'm reassured if you think so lol" he thinks I'm TRing him (I was trying to SR him with stupid logic) and just kinda laughs and says thats kinda dumb but its nice you think I'm town. That seems town to me.

anyway I didn't really Scum case Kaz maybe I'll try again some other time but most of me just wants to townbin him and let scum kaz win the game. I think thats what I will do for now.