Mafiascum.net

Mariyta, Fonz or Wraith. Which one should I vote?

I don't like your "I take responsibility for my vote..." post after the back and forth I did with Fonz.

I don't think Fonz is town any longer due to the fact that I believe he's smarter than what he's saying. A pressured hammerer against a terrible role claim should be lynched? Okay to lynch a fallback claimed VT, but still think she was on the non-scummy side? I'm not liking the pieces put together.

Wraith is doing a lot of Fonz following and a lot of acting in response to SensFan. Why outwardly claim "Oh, cool, a softclaimed PR"? What town motivation does that have?

You three are at the top of my list. Jason would be too, were it not for his claim. I don't believe that every role is deceiving to the flavor, so I'll believe it for now.

Mariyta wrote: I understand there's a lot of irritation over the Mistlynch, but why are we discussing role mechanics (such as "She could have confirmed people by such-and-such") when it makes no difference now? Analyzing the wagon, I understand. But I don't see what analyzing how her role

would

have helped us will get us. Less stalling, more voting, please.

Because it's relevant. A town power role was hammered because she apparently had this 'unbelievable' ability THAT SHE COULD ACTUALLY HAVE CONFIRMED. That makes those responsible scummier.

DemonHybrid wrote:

Vote: Mariyta

I don't like your "I take responsibility for my vote..." post after the back and forth I did with Fonz.

I don't think Fonz is town any longer due to the fact that I believe he's smarter than what he's saying. A pressured hammerer against a terrible role claim should be lynched? Okay to lynch a fallback claimed VT, but still think she was on the non-scummy side? I'm not liking the pieces put together.

Well, that's cool, because I think your 'pressured hammerer/terrible claim' thing is moronic/scummy. You're completely ignoring how much sense it makes for scum there, and drastically overstating how scummy (rather than simply noobish) the way she claimed was.

As for the fallback, yeah. Day one lynches don't have a great hit rate, I didn't have a particular town read on DBE, she's a claimed VT. You're obviously unfamiliar with my emphasis-bordering-on-obsession with not outing any more town roles than absolutely necessary. An averagely scummy player who's already claimed VT is a much better lynch right up against deadline than trying to get a new wagon going, extract a claim there, etc.

Wraith is doing a lot of Fonz following and a lot of acting in response to SensFan. Why outwardly claim "Oh, cool, a softclaimed PR"? What town motivation does that have?

This is bollocks. Wraith was persecuting the mistwagon before I was. You can accuse him of a lot of things, but not following me.

No, I meant he's following your train of thought today, not Day 1.

And yes, it was a noobish claim. To the uninformed majority, it looked scummy. I'm not sure why you don't get this and are pushing the opposite, but okay.

Let me do some editing to an earlier post:

Oh yay, PR softclaiming[/sarcasm]

DemonHybrid wrote:No, I meant he's following your train of thought today, not Day 1.

And yes, it was a noobish claim. To the uninformed majority, it looked scummy. I'm not sure why you don't get this and are pushing the opposite, but okay.

And that would be the last like three posts I made (not including the one above) where I was pretty much saying the same thing as Fonz.

Wraith wrote:Let me do some editing to an earlier post:

Oh yay, PR softclaiming[/sarcasm]

That doesn't change a thing. I still don't like how you said it.

Fonz would be right if we had a cop claim hammered near endgame, as a strong scumteam would be more bold then, but when you're talking about a PR claim on a day 1 wagon, scum aren't going to want to be anywhere NEAR that hammer, because there's way too much game time past that lynch to take scrutiny.

For the point in the game we were in when the claim came, I would expect scum to have already been on the wagon, or off it waiting to see how townies would react to the cop claim. Regardless of whether they were on or off, I can't see them being vocal in reacting to the claim in any manner that doesn't jive with what the flip would actually end up being.

Dislike Jason's Doc claim, but he has a track record of pulling crap like this as town. Also concerned that he's specifically playing to that meta as I have known him to play with his meta to throw Sotty off at least.

With that said we're going to

(Post 2)

Hey Mariyta. I'm uninformed majority, and it didn't look that scummy to me that it would completely override the normal townie desire to ensure it was very clear what was being said before hammering a claimed cop. An informed minority member would imho jump at the chance to off a strong PR and not look scummy for it, though.

sottyrulez wrote:Fonz would be right if we had a cop claim hammered near endgame, as a strong scumteam would be more bold then, but when you're talking about a PR claim on a day 1 wagon, scum aren't going to want to be anywhere NEAR that hammer, because there's way too much game time past that lynch to take scrutiny.

You knows that's basically arguing that it benefits scum too much to be done by scum, right? All the way to endgame, there's likely to be a significant proportion of the town arguing that 'Scum wouldn't have done that, it's too risky' which is exactly why it's not that risky at all. Weigh that against the obvious upside of killing off the cop before rational town players on the wagon can get online and unvote.

Looks like we're black and white then, Fonz. Just know that I'm keeping my eye on you.

DemonHybrid wrote:

Wraith wrote:Let me do some editing to an earlier post:

Oh yay, PR softclaiming[/sarcasm]

That doesn't change a thing. I still don't like how you

sarcastically

said it.

Well I don't like any of your suspects. Two of three have suspected Hiraki, a different two of three are putting the hate on the members of the Mist wagon. How come you're defending what was a terrible wagon? No suspicions of those people at all? Let's take a look at the votes and their reasoning:

Jason wrote:Also holy rolefishing for a doc mist.. your tryin to get a doc claim and counter-claim all while trying to say its not what you want... why even bring it up? your playstyle, though maybe funny for you, has for once not got me chuckling.

unvote
vote:Mist

This is a big 180 from Jason here. Barely two or three posts before this he is in total agreement with me about Mist being a distraction and an obvious mislynch target. But he's semi-safe with a believable Doc claim.



I cannot actually find a post where Hiraki voted Mist. O_o



I've already commented on how I don't like SensFan's vote. What with the "can I get some wagon support on Mist before I vote? I can? kthxvote"

Lowell is actually playing not at all to his horrific meta, so unvote, vote: Mist

I've gone off the Kage lynch a bit. All the other wagons but Mist's seem to be 'This player has said a few dumb/confrontational/emotive things' and that's the sort of thing that nearly always leads to D1 mislynches. Mist's last post seems to be a lot of IIOA and stating the obvious, and couple that with the scummy alt-guessing business, she's both VIish and actually scummy.

SensFan wrote:Speaking of relations, if Mist was Town, Scum would be bending over backwards to do everything in their power to fire off a nice mislynch. That's not happening.

Massive oversimplification alert.

Assume all the major wagonees and Mist are town. The scum have nothing to gain from moving onto Mist, when they've got a perfectly juicy mislynch of a player who's actually more valuable to the town, moving might look scummy, and the Mystlynch will still be available on later days.

Imagine one or two of Darla/Hiraki/Kage is scum. Scum have more chance of succeeding with the already existing counterwagons which have presumably some town support than trying to start a new one on a VI replacement who at least some town are going to defend with vifom.

The only way you'd really EXPECT scum to attack the VI replacing in here is if pretty much all the leading candidates are scum.

Honestly, I really don't like this vote. Probably even less than SensFan. AFA I can tell he's saying "scum have no reason to mislynch a VI unless the other leading wagons are scum, so I'll vote for the VI." It boggles my mind. HOWEVER, you (DH) aren't suspecting Fonz for this, you're suspecting Fonz for attacking the people who supported lynching Mist based on her being a VI and having a badly-worded claim.

Unvote: Vote: Mist

Comes out of nowhere and is stupid, with no explanation. *facepalm*

Unvote: Vote: Mist

Also comes out with no explanation, but not out of nowhere. DBE actually has a reason to vote for the Mist wagon, because she is one of the leading wagons.

unvote
Vote Mist

The more I think about it, the lmore my townread of LlamaFluff decays. For some strange reason he thinks Hiraki and DBE are town (DBE is meh-on-the-fence for me, probable VI) (I don't buy the Hiraki-is-town argument at all. He had awful posts early on and only about one WoT attempts to make up for it). AFAIK LF gives no real explanation for these reads, refer me to the post if I'm wrong. But this just comes out of nowhere, and also AFAIK LF had not previously commented on Mist at all (again, refer me if I'm wrong).

God. No chance at Darla huh?

Unvote
VOTE: Mist

This vote is also down there with the "scummy and with ulterior motives," meaning it combines SF and DBE's votes into one really really nefarious vote. Kagelord has two easy mislynch targets he's pushing at this point, Mist and DBE, and he's under great suspicion himself. IMO he is trying to get the pressure off himself to someone easier, which he succeeded at doing.

Unvote, Vote: Mist

Here we are, you are part of the little so-called "Axis of Evil Votes" I have here, along with SensFan and KageLord. Your vote comes later than your suspicions, just after the massive string of nonsensical "we're close to deadline" votes. Before Mist came along, you were all for a Hiraki lynch (IMO it looks like bussing) and even questioned SensFan's judgment on voting Mist. But after the wagon got steam you jumped on. I want to look at this 180, which is similar to Jason's:

ISO #40

SensFan wrote:I'll lynch someone on whom I have no information over someone on whom I'm leaning Scum any day of the week.

....why?

ISO #49

In total agreement with Sens. Please do.

These are before and after the claim.

Also like SensFan you are attempting to justify your vote EVEN THOUGH YOU WERE WRONG AND SHE FLIPPED EXACTLY LIKE SHE CLAIMED. This is the biggest thing that gets my attention. Mariyta (who I'll get to soon) came right in and said "Well I fucked up, let's do this right." You've defending and justifying your vote for Mist based on poor and what has been CONFIRMED to be flawed reasoning.

oh fine

unvote;vote:Mist

Wraith needs rope though.

I really don't know what NC's beef with me is other than "what a fucking jerk let's lynch this guy" but I understand this vote. It's Nero Cain being Nero Cain.



Mariyta's vote, out of everyone's is easiest to understand. It's irrational and motivated by frustration, and she admits it.

We are NOT doing this again, so knock it off. Jesus H. Christ. Why can't people just freaking play mafia instead of playing little "guess who I am" games to waste everyone's time and distract from the game????

UNVOTE: , VOTE: Mist For being a freaking tool.

It was an irritated, irrational vote. I'm just sick of the guessing games and the bullshit people pull into MS. I just want to play the damn game without all the drama and hoop jumping.

UNVOTE: Mist, VOTE: Hiraki

Fine. Whatever.

UNVOTE: Hiraki, VOTE: Mist L-2 Claim time.

How are we idiots? Her play was absolute shite.

VOTE: Hiraki This should have been done yesterday.

Even though she says "oh it doesn't matter, she was playing like shit" she adds that we should have lynched Hiraki yesterday instead. This is why Mariyta is probably my strongest town read right now. She owns up to her mistakes instead of trying to avoid them.

How does Homer investigate people Mist? Paraphrase, dont quote. Paraphrasing is allowed. I am not convnced wth this qt thing at all.

edit: vote mist

I voted mist because I was not happy with his claim.

Meeeh...I honestly can't say much about this one, because I really haven't been paying attention to boberz. I don't like that it comes late to the party just because of a bad claim, but at least he says "Didn't like the claim, that's about it" and not "Oh come on mod meta means overpowered role claim is shit." Maybe I'm being selectively biased here. I dunno. Null.

HOWEVER, reading further, this post is really really bad:

unvote dbe but he is still scum

vote jason not buying hibbert as a doc. at all.

You vote for the CLAIMED DOC over someone you are CONVINCED IS SCUM? Major Although you did change it back.

And now mist isn't even viewing this forum. Time's up.

Vote: mist

The person who brought the hammer down. This is totally null for me because he was pressured into the hammer primarily by SensFan. +townpoints though because he at least tried to give her a chance with people shouting at him to hammer, instead of going "oh mod meta bad wording VI shes scum"

That's my two cents for now.

PREDIT: I'll read the last three posts I just missed later.

Oooh, I'm soooooooo scared.

Oops, Wraith. You typed all of that up for nothing.

I'm not defending the wagon. I'm defending the hammer and the votes against the claim, not the pre-claim votes.

DemonHybrid wrote:Oops, Wraith. You typed all of that up for nothing.

I'm not defending the wagon. I'm defending the hammer and the votes against the claim, not the pre-claim votes.

Well it's there, and I type really fast. So whatever.

DemonHybrid wrote:Oops, Wraith. You typed all of that up for nothing.

I'm not defending the wagon. I'm defending the hammer and the votes against the claim, not the pre-claim votes.

Hang on a second

You voted before the claim. But you're justifying that vote. Something doesn't add up.

Wraith wrote:

SensFan

I've already commented on how I don't like SensFan's vote. What with the "can I get some wagon support on Mist before I vote? I can? kthxvote"

Great idea! If only I wasn't the second person on the Mist wagon, it would really be something worth pursuing!

Also of note, Wraith, you can't exactly directly ask me if I have hidden information, then bitch about softclaims when I answer. It comes off as remarkably hypocritical of you.

/facepalm

I'm not justifying MY vote. How many times do I have to say that it was a bad vote on my part and that I welcome the questioning (albeit GOOD questioning, not illogical crap)?

I'm defending RIBWICH'S HAMMER and EVERYONE FOR THE HAMMER (that includes me), not on the wagon PRE-CLAIM.

SensFan wrote:

Wraith wrote:

SensFan

I've already commented on how I don't like SensFan's vote. What with the "can I get some wagon support on Mist before I vote? I can? kthxvote"

Great idea! If only I wasn't the second person on the Mist wagon, it would really be something worth pursuing!

Also of note, Wraith, you can't exactly directly ask me if I have hidden information, then bitch about softclaims when I answer. It comes off as remarkably hypocritical of you.

I meant to imply that you were scum, not a PR. Which I still think.

PREDIT: I'm not attacking RIBWICH, though.

Like I was, you can be vocal for the hammer and still cast a bad vote. I apologize for the bad vote. I do not apologize for pushing the hammer, the claim was a fucking mess.

Preview edit: Then I see no need for you to butt in when you have nothing to say.

Oh shit, deja vu.

With my magic powers I predict a major wagon on me within the week.

Wraith wrote:

SensFan wrote:

Wraith wrote:

SensFan

I've already commented on how I don't like SensFan's vote. What with the "can I get some wagon support on Mist before I vote? I can? kthxvote"

Great idea! If only I wasn't the second person on the Mist wagon, it would really be something worth pursuing!

Also of note, Wraith, you can't exactly directly ask me if I have hidden information, then bitch about softclaims when I answer. It comes off as remarkably hypocritical of you.

I meant to imply that you were scum, not a PR. Which I still think.

How would Scum have hidden information about the fact that Mist lied in her claim? Your story isn't adding up.

SensFan wrote:

Wraith wrote:

SensFan wrote:

Wraith wrote:

SensFan

I've already commented on how I don't like SensFan's vote. What with the "can I get some wagon support on Mist before I vote? I can? kthxvote"

Great idea! If only I wasn't the second person on the Mist wagon, it would really be something worth pursuing!

Also of note, Wraith, you can't exactly directly ask me if I have hidden information, then bitch about softclaims when I answer. It comes off as remarkably hypocritical of you.

I meant to imply that you were scum, not a PR. Which I still think.

How would Scum have hidden information about the fact that Mist lied in her claim? Your story isn't adding up.

Something else isn't adding up. Why would Mist's flip be a lie? This isn't a bastard mod.

Wraith wrote:
Honestly, I really don't like this vote. Probably even less than SensFan. AFA I can tell he's saying "scum have no reason to mislynch a VI unless the other leading wagons are scum, so I'll vote for the VI." It boggles my mind. HOWEVER, you (DH) aren't suspecting Fonz for this, you're suspecting Fonz for attacking the people who supported lynching Mist based on her being a VI and having a badly-worded claim.

Your mind boggling boggles MY mind, because this is exactly what I'm saying and also absolutely, 100% true. Can you explain to me why scum would either a) Move en-masse off a town lynch for a lynch of a less useful townie or b) choose a less viable counterwagon to the one on their partner? It's really obvious common sense.

Let's say you're scum and Hiraki is scum with you. Which wagon is more likely to successfully beat out the Hiraki wagon, a six-man Kagewagon or a two-man mistwagon? Now imagine Kage is the scumbuddy. Do you push the eight-man wagon that's already in the lead, or the aforementioned two-man wagon?

Mariyta and ribwich are particularly scummy for being on both the mistwagon AND the Hiraki wagon.

Wraith wrote:

SensFan wrote:

Wraith wrote:

SensFan wrote:

Wraith wrote:

SensFan

I've already commented on how I don't like SensFan's vote. What with the "can I get some wagon support on Mist before I vote? I can? kthxvote"

Great idea! If only I wasn't the second person on the Mist wagon, it would really be something worth pursuing!

Also of note, Wraith, you can't exactly directly ask me if I have hidden information, then bitch about softclaims when I answer. It comes off as remarkably hypocritical of you.

I meant to imply that you were scum, not a PR. Which I still think.

How would Scum have hidden information about the fact that Mist lied in her claim? Your story isn't adding up.

Something else isn't adding up. Why would Mist's flip be a lie? This isn't a bastard mod.

Are you bothering to read the thread at all? A page ago, I said that Mist lied in her claim, and your response wasn't "This isn't bastard mod!", it was "Do you have information we don't?" Now I'm asking for how that was supposed to imply that I'm Scum, rather than that I have role-related information that she lied?

The Fonz wrote:

Wraith wrote:
Honestly, I really don't like this vote. Probably even less than SensFan. AFA I can tell he's saying "scum have no reason to mislynch a VI unless the other leading wagons are scum, so I'll vote for the VI." It boggles my mind. HOWEVER, you (DH) aren't suspecting Fonz for this, you're suspecting Fonz for attacking the people who supported lynching Mist based on her being a VI and having a badly-worded claim.

Your mind boggling boggles MY mind, because this is exactly what I'm saying and also absolutely, 100% true. Can you explain to me why scum would either a) Move en-masse off a town lynch for a lynch of a less useful townie or b) choose a less viable counterwagon to the one on their partner? It's really obvious common sense.

Let's say you're scum and Hiraki is scum with you. Which wagon is more likely to successfully beat out the Hiraki wagon, a six-man Kagewagon or a two-man mistwagon? Now imagine Kage is the scumbuddy. Do you push the eight-man wagon that's already in the lead, or the aforementioned two-man wagon?

Mariyta and ribwich are particularly scummy for being on both the mistwagon AND the Hiraki wagon.

Meh, I suppose I didn't look at it in that context. I'm biased and haven't been taking into account that the Mist wagon didn't really explode until a bunch of people jumped on later.

Should I take that last comment as a "I think Hiraki is town" read?