Open 642 - The Woodshed - Game Over

[BTD6_maker]

Was I seriously due a replacement? And does every single living player other than Mhsmith and Ranger need prodded? This game really is cursed.

I never said it was pro-Town to self-vote. I said that it is possible but extremely rare that self-voting is pro-Town. In this case, even if I had promised to get lynched, if I were in Ranger's position I would let Town lynch me and read my wagon rather than self-voting.

What I knew, though, was that Ranger thought she had a reason

. That was my point in that post. I fail to see why she self-voted (as do you) but only Ranger knows why she thinks it to be pro-Town (unless she is actually scum and thought her lynch was inevitable, trying to benefit scum by self-voting).

1) Why did you know this?

Ranger declared this a viable option. That is why I know she at least thought she had a reason.

2) Why do you continue to choose not to deal with the possibility that by self-voting she INTENTIONALLY tried to create a situation where she would NOT get lynched?

This is a possibility. However, bear in mind that the IC guidelines allow self-voting as scum if it benefits your faction and self-voting thus appears to be a scummy action. It is certainly highly risky to use it to avoid getting lynched. If you still think she did that, we can still lynch her.

3) What pro-town outcome can you think of? "Well I'm sure there was one" is an incredible cop-out. Put some thought into it. Can YOU think of any pro-town outcome of this? If you cannot, then you need to demand Ranger explain wtf she was doing and why (or you need to conclude that there was no pro-town reasoning, which then leads ot the obvious next step conclusion that she's mafia).

Again, forcing a thorough explanation (other than "I did this in such-and-such game as well") would help. My only idea is that she wanted to flip so she would be confTown and could thus help to solve the game without suspicion being cast on her, while also being near-Deathproof (if scum did not prime her N1, scum probably wouldn't prime her). It's very rarely worth spending a mislynch, but it's a possibility.

Note that this sort of thing is what most people would call "scum hunting". I'm fully aware that I'm being condescending, but if you start to do stuff like this (as opposed to dumping out naked reads), then maybe you won't get quick-lynched so often as both alignments, and will better be able to show your teammates you're town when you're town (takes off IC-wannabe hat).

I was only quicklynched so often for taking on far too many games at once. My load has reduced considerably now. I can scum hunt and be more invested in all of my games.

[Titus]

Game still needs heads.

UNVOTE: BTD

Trying in this is a town tell.

[innocentvillager]

prodge lol

[BTD6_maker]

Here's a quick summary of activity.

Kappy is being replaced.
Shotty is banned.
Alpaca and Town Mafioso have disappeared after their prod.
IV is prodging.
Ranger is apparently too tired.
Mhsmith, Titus and I are trying to be active, but with such little contribution it can be difficult.
The game is stagnating.
The mod has been offline for long enough to warrant a force-replacement if they were playing.
We have had 7 completed replacements (8 counting Music and Mail separately)

In short, this game really is cursed. Let's hope the curse does not spread to the replacers.

[AlpacaAlpaca]

Wow I was going to come here and say that I am going to be V/LA for this weekend but than noticed that I haven't posted in 6 days and 17 hours and actually havent been prodded yet. I am leaving now for this weekend but when I get back on monday I will remind myself to try and start conversation and hopefully the replacement will be here by than.

[BTD6_maker]

I am hoping that one or both scum are inactive. If both scum are active in such a slow, stagnant game our chances look bad.

[Titus]

if no actions are made by a mod in 24 hours, I am PMing a documented backup mod or a list mod.

[mhsmith0]

Given that:

1) Ranger remains my top suspect, and she's still ill (so is unavailable to answer my accusations);
2) BTD6 is promising to actually do some scum-hunting at some point in the near future;
3) Two others are being replaced, TM hasn't been around for over a week, and Alpaca was gone for nearly a week then prodged;

I'm not particularly inclined to really do much here until/unless things change.

PS Titus you'd mentioned that Ranger reminded you of the time you were mafia with her. Can you talk about that in more detail? What specifically are you seeing that reminds you of that game?

PPS Maybe this was just carelessness in language, but "Ranger is apparently too tired" is a pretty cheap shot, BTD6. She's made it pretty clear her health is being an issue. Please be careful to respect that (and respect that from other players in the future as well).

[BTD6_maker]

I'm sorry.
I'm too tired to focus properly, and I DO need to get sleep.
So this game will have to wait until tomorrow.

Sorry. This is why I thought "Ranger is apparently too tired". It was probably just missing Ranger's sick post.

[BTD6_maker]

Also, if this sort of thing is what most people would call "scum hunting" then I have already scum hunted by answering the points about Ranger. I can't do anything with them, though, until Ranger replies.

[mhsmith0]

What do you mean by "this sort of thing"?

[BTD6_maker]

I never said it was pro-Town to self-vote. I said that it is possible but extremely rare that self-voting is pro-Town. In this case, even if I had promised to get lynched, if I were in Ranger's position I would let Town lynch me and read my wagon rather than self-voting.

What I knew, though, was that Ranger thought she had a reason

. That was my point in that post. I fail to see why she self-voted (as do you) but only Ranger knows why she thinks it to be pro-Town (unless she is actually scum and thought her lynch was inevitable, trying to benefit scum by self-voting).

1) Why did you know this?

2) Why do you continue to choose not to deal with the possibility that by self-voting she INTENTIONALLY tried to create a situation where she would NOT get lynched?

3) What pro-town outcome can you think of? "Well I'm sure there was one" is an incredible cop-out. Put some thought into it. Can YOU think of any pro-town outcome of this? If you cannot, then you need to demand Ranger explain wtf she was doing and why (or you need to conclude that there was no pro-town reasoning, which then leads ot the obvious next step conclusion that she's mafia).

Note that

this sort of thing is what most people would call "scum hunting".

I'm fully aware that I'm being condescending, but if you start to do stuff like this (as opposed to dumping out naked reads), then maybe you won't get quick-lynched so often as both alignments, and will better be able to show your teammates you're town when you're town (takes off IC-wannabe hat).

[mhsmith0]

What is your understanding of what I meant by "this sort of thing"?

[BTD6_maker]

My understanding was that "this sort of thing" was asking and answering questions about other people in the manner that you did.

[mhsmith0]

Specifically, it was asking aggressive and potentially game-solving questions, I.e. Pushing the game forward. That's scum hunting (or one form of it). Answering peoples questions is just playing defense, something quite different.

[innocentvillager]

Props to BTD and mhsmith for keeping activity going.

I'll try and contribute some too. Mhsmith, BTD, do either of you want my thoughts on anything in particular?

[mhsmith0]

Yes

Spoiler: .

[BTD6_maker]

That's one day since Titus posted.

Requesting a backup mod

IV, can you please give your thoughts on why Ranger self-voted, and whether it was scummy or not?

[mhsmith0]

I think current ranger thoughts would be useful. I think your d1 wagon was pretty garbage and I feel like ranger in particular would/should know better as town, and I keep thinking all the rest has been damage control.

Ps feel free to weigh in on her meta read of me as well. I think that was weirdly over specific for a game where I subbed in at mylo and then watched as the wolves quick-hammered. Do you, or would you, meta read someone to that find level of detail on such a short exposure?

[mhsmith0]

Fwiw, and I know I could be conf!biased since I subbed in knowing iv's flip, but I HATE that people scum read 110. That's like the epitome of putting your thoughts, warts and all, into the thread. That's like the epitome if what you're supposed to be doing as town... and your getting wagoned for it makes me think it was scum driven, which puts me back at ranger.

I suppose it's possible a wolf intentionally stayed off your wagon BECAUSE it was so bad (which I guess would point to m&m if that was actually the case), but I think it's likelier there were two wolves on you or that one was hard pushing you. Because if that was a town driven wagon, that's disgusting.

[LlamaFluff]

Looking into the missing mod situation.

If people can send me their roles so I can get a headcount of who is here and who needs replacing I would appreciate it.

[Quaroath]

Vote count 2.10

mhsmith0 - (2) Ranger, BTD6_maker
BTD6_maker - (3) Kappy, drmyshottyizsik, Town Mafioso
Ranger - (1) mhsmith0

Not Voting - (2) AlpacaAlpaca, Titus

With 8 eligible to vote, is takes 5 to lynch.

Still seeking replacements for Kappy and Shotty. Town Mafioso never picked up a prod and hasn't been on site since 7/4 soo I'm looking for that spot as well.

My apologizies for the unexpected V/LA on my end. Life's been... interesting and Mafia hasn't been top of mind the last three days.

Also, Oddly, I no longer get emails when I get pm'd. That's annoying.

[innocentvillager]

Fwiw, and I know I could be conf!biased since I subbed in knowing iv's flip, but I HATE that people scum read 110. That's like the epitome of putting your thoughts, warts and all, into the thread. That's like the epitome if what you're supposed to be doing as town... and your getting wagoned for it makes me think it was scum driven, which puts me back at ranger.

I suppose it's possible a wolf intentionally stayed off your wagon BECAUSE it was so bad (which I guess would point to m&m if that was actually the case), but I think it's likelier there were two wolves on you or that one was hard pushing you. Because if that was a town driven wagon, that's disgusting.

Yeah looking back I also feel like 110 should've been townread. I guess people really hated me for fencesitting on the Ranger v M&M debate, but honestly I feel like that would've been way too blatant for me to post as scum, and that alone is kind of a dumb reason to go from town!IV to scum!IV since town could reasonably think that way too.

I think current ranger thoughts would be useful. I think your d1 wagon was pretty garbage and I feel like ranger in particular would/should know better as town, and I keep thinking all the rest has been damage control.

Ps feel free to weigh in on her meta read of me as well. I think that was weirdly over specific for a game where I subbed in at mylo and then watched as the wolves quick-hammered. Do you, or would you, meta read someone to that find level of detail on such a short exposure?

IV, can you please give your thoughts on why Ranger self-voted, and whether it was scummy or not?

@smith But why create that "damage" in the first place? That is what I don't get. scum!Ranger comes in with a super aggressive scumhunting playstyle (maybe to emulate town meta, fine), pushes a lynch on me with 100% certainty when there are plenty of other options, almost mockingly claims she'll lynch herself if I flip town (which scum!Ranger would know), and sulks/selfvotes on D2 to avoid suspicion. The only reason I can think of scum!Ranger doing something like this is if she's not actually trying to optimally fulfill her wincon—rather, she would want to see, maybe for purely entertainment purposes, if she could win a game by basically just fucking with the town and AtE shitting all over the place. In response to: "Ranger in particular would/should know better as town" I mean maybe, maybe not? Even if you think she's a really good scumhunter normally, you can't expect her to get every lynch right. I get that maybe it's a scumtell if you thought I was so town that townies should've noticed, but honestly I got lynched by 4 other people anyway so clearly I wasn't nearly that town at all. So based off of recent actions, I believe that Ranger is most likely town, unless she's just fucking around or being psychotic. I might look into the her meta read of you when I have more time but I wanted to give this out at least.

tl;dr I just don't see optimal scum motivation to play the way she did.

@BTD a lot of my ranger comments are above with respects to smith's comment. I find it null/maybe slightly leaning scum to selfvote, tbh. If she's scum, she kinda has to selfvote since she claimed to go for my wagon on D1 and agreed to get lynched if she was wrong. If she's town, I can kinda understand that she's gotten a bit sulky/hesitant on her reads and selfvotes to uphold her promise. She thinks she is being protown by doing this. The only reason I say it could be slightly leaning scum is that there is more scummotivation to selfvote than town motivation, tbh. I can see town being like "oh fuck, I'm really sorry guys, I'm going to really refocus my reads and try to hit actual scum this time" instead of selfvoting, but I can't really see scum acting like that in conjunction with pushing a 100% scumread on me d1 knowing I would flip town.

[Titus]

Someone asked why I thought ranger could be scum. See open 627.

[mhsmith0]

Someone asked why I thought ranger could be scum. See open 627.

Can you clarify that a bit? I'm cool w looking at that game but if like to know what you're referring to as being a parallel.