In post 886, TwoFace wrote:I don't think you'll be force replaced either. Hope not anyway.
I still don't know why we're letting wobbuffet off the hook. I've caught him in 2 lies already.
Which are...?
Unwilling to contribute though fully to the game
Lashed out at people who've asked for reasons and I've refused to give them
Not justifying my scum reads
Refusing to give reasons
Avoided the question
That my reason for scum reading your slot was because I disagree with the term lynchbait
Not contributing to the game by giving actual reasons
That I'm trying to get mort lynched.
None of these are true. Yes I realize some of these are duplicates. It's one thing to make a simple mistake. It's another to repeatedly lie over and over again.
In post 886, TwoFace wrote:I don't think you'll be force replaced either. Hope not anyway.
I still don't know why we're letting wobbuffet off the hook. I've caught him in 2 lies already.
Which are...?
Unwilling to contribute though fully to the game
Lashed out at people who've asked for reasons and I've refused to give them
Not justifying my scum reads
Refusing to give reasons
Avoided the question
That my reason for scum reading your slot was because I disagree with the term lynchbait
Not contributing to the game by giving actual reasons
That I'm trying to get mort lynched.
None of these are true. Yes I realize some of these are duplicates. It's one thing to make a simple mistake. It's another to repeatedly lie over and over again.
This is all subjective. You might believe that these are lies, but in my opinion most of these statements are true. The ones that aren't were mistakes that I made because you'd refused to actually prove that what I was saying was false.
In post 886, TwoFace wrote:I don't think you'll be force replaced either. Hope not anyway.
I still don't know why we're letting wobbuffet off the hook. I've caught him in 2 lies already.
Which are...?
Unwilling to contribute though fully to the game
Lashed out at people who've asked for reasons and I've refused to give them
Not justifying my scum reads
Refusing to give reasons
Avoided the question
That my reason for scum reading your slot was because I disagree with the term lynchbait
Not contributing to the game by giving actual reasons
That I'm trying to get mort lynched.
None of these are true. Yes I realize some of these are duplicates. It's one thing to make a simple mistake. It's another to repeatedly lie over and over again.
I'd like to suggest a thought exercise with you. Now I'm not gonna argue your points here but what I'd like you to do is read back with the thought pattern of his replacement was just a terrible player and then judge only wobb. Baring in mind that they was also on mobile like yourself and it isn't easy for them to read back. Then I would like to know if going off wobb's actions if you believe they are Red! I would also appricate it if you would reveal what you found to the group as a whole as I believe that it'll be useful from your perspective
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:13 am
by Naomi-Tan
EBWODP
Yeah i meant read back as if the original player was just bad to see if your just tilted.
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:26 am
by Human Sequencer
Yo.
Internet is down, on my mother's mob data.
Just checking in to let you guys know the situation and givd the thread a quick read.
It should be back up tomorrow, so I should be able to properly post on 24h
If there's anything you want me to answer all quick and dirty like you got me for maybe 1h
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:29 am
by TwoFace
Yeah no I'm not going to do that Naomi. It's his job as s replacement to read first before making baseless accusations. If he was unable to he should have just said that. Like when I said I was unable to because I was on a mobile, which of course he twisted that into me refusing. Y'all want to make excuses for his behavior go right ahead but I don't see how any of that comes from town.
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:36 am
by Naomi-Tan
In post 906, TwoFace wrote:Yeah no I'm not going to do that Naomi. It's his job as s replacement to read first before making baseless accusations. If he was unable to he should have just said that. Like when I said I was unable to because I was on a mobile, which of course he twisted that into me refusing. Y'all want to make excuses for his behavior go right ahead but I don't see how any of that comes from town.
No im saying go read him ignoring who he replaced and see if you come up with a different result. or if his actions are interdependently red. It could be that he just replaced a bad player and I wanna see if you feel that way.
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:43 am
by TwoFace
I just posted many examples of him lying. Regardless who he replaced that's it green behavior
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:44 am
by TwoFace
That's not green behavior
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:04 am
by Drone
Lol.
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:04 am
by Drone
You're trolling, aren't you?
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:08 am
by TwoFace
No I'm dead serious.
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:50 am
by Naomi-Tan
In post 908, TwoFace wrote:I just posted many examples of him lying. Regardless who he replaced that's it green behavior
In post 886, TwoFace wrote:I don't think you'll be force replaced either. Hope not anyway.
I still don't know why we're letting wobbuffet off the hook. I've caught him in 2 lies already.
Which are...?
Unwilling to contribute though fully to the game
Lashed out at people who've asked for reasons and I've refused to give them
Not justifying my scum reads
Refusing to give reasons
Avoided the question
That my reason for scum reading your slot was because I disagree with the term lynchbait
Not contributing to the game by giving actual reasons
That I'm trying to get mort lynched.
None of these are true. Yes I realize some of these are duplicates. It's one thing to make a simple mistake. It's another to repeatedly lie over and over again.
If you mean this post its not an example of him lying.. If not I'll go hunting..
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:57 am
by TwoFace
That post is all of the examples of him lying.
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 4:59 am
by TwoFace
for some reason everyone wants to give him a free pass and I have accepted that. I am not ok with it, but I have accepted it. since his lynch isn't going to happen, i'll probably join the hs wagon
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 5:03 am
by TwoFace
@naomi- can you please show me any examples of green posting from wobbuffet and explain why they are more likely to come from green and not red. Obviously I am biased but i don't see a single useful post from him
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:15 am
by Naomi-Tan
In post 916, TwoFace wrote:@naomi- can you please show me any examples of green posting from wobbuffet and explain why they are more likely to come from green and not red. Obviously I am biased but i don't see a single useful post from him
I was trying to work out your motives. That quoted post only says things you say he has done but has no real proof.
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:21 am
by TwoFace
Those things I typed are almost word for word what he says in his posts. I didn't quite them as I was on a mobile.
If you read his posts you will see they are true. The fact you just said that saddens me because it seems like you aren't reading his posts.
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 6:22 am
by TwoFace
My motives are clear. Prove my scum read has lied multiple times.
If somebody can justify that as green behavior please go ahead. I need a good laugh
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:08 am
by Naomi-Tan
yup thats pretty much what happened.. I got kinda bleh about the shitty negativity and just skimmed over for anything that was independently scummy without looking at the points at more than face value. which is why that post with everything in it stuck out.. argument seemed like old ground where your both reading each other as red as thats about as far as it goes... couldn't get more out of it so just been kinda skimming it.
I'll take a look back at the argument properly when im in a good head space to deal with it.
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:09 am
by Naomi-Tan
If you look back at my first post on that big quote It was designed to try and get you to expand your reads out from a narrow field :3 so... I didn't really wanna get drawn in myself
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:30 am
by Toto
I went to our previous newbie 1744 and tried to find references of HS role-fishing and could only find this:
In post 198, Human Sequencer wrote:
I also think it's potentially a very bad thing people are viewing Copper as so towny so consistently in general. There are two possibilities, Copper is scum and now hard to lynch, or Copper is town and now has a target on his back.
It could be disastrous if he carried a power role
. I don't think he does, though.
The tone above was that of a concerned townie being protective of our PRs. I think the rolefishing going on here is different:
In post 649, Human Sequencer wrote:Guys, I think TwoFace is claiming vig. He's constantly asking to last until day 2.
In post 694, Human Sequencer wrote:Funny this comes on the heel of TwoFace's best post all game. I could've used that pages ago.
But holy shit having him as a vig would be RIP.
In post 734, Human Sequencer wrote:Toto and Creeps are either masons or are so in synchronization with each other that they know precisely how to fuck with me.
The tone of these three posts sound more like HS is actually threatened by the town PRs and wants to get rid of them. Here is one more thing which I think is very bad:
In post 198, Human Sequencer wrote:
I also think it's potentially a very bad thing people are viewing Copper as so towny so consistently in general. There are two possibilities, Copper is scum and now hard to lynch, or Copper is town and now has a target on his back.
It could be disastrous if he carried a power role
. I don't think he does, though.
In post 839, Human Sequencer wrote:I wasn't aware at the time, because in my first game both roles were hardclaimed D1 (and town went on to win!), but I'll take that knowledge (role fishing=bad for town) and put it in my databanks for next game.
Contrast the two posts. In first post HS is very aware that putting a target on PRs is a bad thing. In the second one they say they did not know how that was bad for town.
I think I'm convinced now
VOTE: HS
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:33 am
by TwoFace
good post by toto
Posted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:41 am
by MortFeld
Going to do the legwork here so people aren't confused and so we don't get another back and forth with TwoFace about facts. I'm not looking for a response from TwoFace, but it's a disservice to both town and to Wobbu himself if TwoFace just says 'Liar!' and doesn't even quote posts. Here are the posts where Wobbu allegedly lies:
Spoiler: every alleged lie TF pointed out minus one repeat
As much as I TR TwoFace, I feel like a policy lynch is necessary here.
He's already shown that he's unwilling to contribute thoughtfully to the game
, so I think that lynching them won't hurt too much even if they do flip town. And yeah, maybe it'll turn out that they're actually mafia.
Though this might not be strictly true, it's also not a lie. TF's arguments are often tenuous when originally expressed - TF usually explains them fully later but it's difficult to follow. Also TF has made a number of distracting posts that could definitely be characterized as lacking thoughtfulness.
As much as I TR TwoFace, I feel like a policy lynch is necessary here. He's already shown that he's unwilling to contribute thoughtfully to the game, so I think that lynching them won't hurt too much even if they do flip town. And yeah, maybe it'll turn out that they're actually mafia.
I've contributed thoughtfully. Thanks.
Uh, no. You've thrown out random scum reads and then
lashed out at people who've asked you to give reasoning behind them, and you've refused to do so
In post 623, ChaosOmega wrote:Wobbuffet, how do you strongly townread TwoFace if you don't understand why he's scumreading you?
I don't strongly townread them. However, I do get the feeling that they're a townie who's made the mistake of
not justifying their scumreads
and being overly defensive. I could very well be wrong though.
This one actually pings scummy to me, whether or not it's a lie. It's sort of a lie, I think TF has justified their scum reads but the cases are bad so it's understandable that Wobbu might think they're unjustified. What's weird is the 'He's probably town and bad, but I might be wrong!'
Not going to quote this, 677 Wobbu accuses TF of avoiding the question of why TF scumreads Wobbu's slot. This isn't a lie, TF said Wobbu should read the thread for the reasons but didn't answer the direct question. Whether or not TF has an obligation to summarize the case when prompted is up to debate but this wasn't a lie.
In post 202, TwoFace wrote:Oh yeah that's bad. The over explanation about scum being can be lynch baity makes it bad. Scum can't be lynch bait
This needs a flip. Should I vote?
Heads
VOTE: copper
Well I dug through the thread and I found this is where you lynched my slot.
That's your reasoning? You disagreed over the definition of a term and you were so arrogant that you decided to lynch over it?
Please.
Either a lie or misreading. To be fair, I had this misreading at first too but it was cleared up prior to Wobbu's entrance.
In post 806, DeathByWobbuffet wrote:I used to TR TwoFace, but I'm not so sure anymore. They seem to be getting overly defensive whenever anyone makes any kind of accusation about them. They're also
trying to get Mort lynched
for something that was pretty clearly a mistake, and was quickly fixed.
This is a lie. TF's pressure on me for mistakes in my rushed SRs list was dumb but looked !green motivated to NAI at worst. If TF tried to get me lynched over that it would have been red! motivated. Scummy lie.
Conclusion: I agree none of this looks !green motivated. Mostly NAI to slightly !red motivated. Adds a bit to my own scum read of Wobbu.