TM2012: White Flag Mafia (Game Over)

[Zachrulez]

Also on the OMGUS issue, I was voting TSQ most of the first day phase, and I haven't backed off on calling the slot scum... so OMGUS... right.

Seriously Bub... if you are town here, this is why you lose games.

[Llamarble]

My choosing scum in spite of preferring town last year was certainly partly for WIFOM reasons (the overall reason being I thought it gave our team the best chance of winning).
OMGUS comes from both alignments and you have to look at what kind it is, but yeah Nacho OMGUSed Zach more than the other way around.
Also Singer's page 34 stuff looks town.

[Equinox]

Vote Count 2.08

Cogito Ergo Sum (2) - Captain Falcon, Benmage
Nachomamma8 (2) - singersigner, Zachrulez
Zachrulez (2) - Nachomamma8, Bub Bidderskins
Llamarble (1) - Cogito Ergo Sum
Matias (1) - SocioPath
singersigner (1) - Matias

Not Voting (2) - Johhog, Llamarble

With 11 alive, it's 6 to lynch.

The deadline is Sunday, June 3, 2012, at 7:08 PM EDT (UTC-4).

[Llamarble]

Nacho's activity level looks high compared to Nacho scum.
I like his catch up.
I think CES is a good chunk more likely to be scum than Zach though.
VOTE: CES

I'm going to look at Amrun's wagon though. CES wasn't on it.

Also last year I killed IPie Because he was obvtown and wrongly listed me as town and I didn't want to give him a chance to change his mind. There are a lot of possible reasons for Regfan to die and I'm going to reread his / Amrun's arguments.

[Nachomamma8]

Regfan having 6 strong correct town reads and his 3 top scum reads all being wrong would be one heck of a coincidence.

And if I weren't pushing it, there'd be no extra suspicion thrown on 'marble and you (and people are ignoring me when it comes to that too). Let's not pretend otherwise.

Fair enough.

Tammy says I am wrong about you because you two have offsite experience.

Do you have any opinion on Nachos bad vote on Zach?

why do you think zach is town?

All that love from Nacho and he can't even look me in the eyes.

Zach won't get lynched without my intervention. You will.

[Nachomamma8]

To come to this conclusion you would have had to ignore day 1 completely...

You ignoring Amrun wagon:
Your two posts regarding Amrun on the end of the day were: #640, saying that you couldn't find a reason in Johhog's ISO for voting Amrun, and #664, which said that you were depressed about the Amrun wagon and you were satisfied with Johhog's reasoning with voting Amrun. The last time you called her town was in #224. The rest was just conversation with her, no actual commenting on the wagon itself.

If your point was that getting lurkers lynched wasn't hard, then you're really wrong and I shouldn't have to back that up.

Whatever you say.

Your entire ISO was you saying TSQ was scummy, saying you had a weird feeling about Benmage, and a townread on Haddock and Amrun. That's the full extent of all of your 40-something posts before that, and that's not really providing shit for content in my opinion.

Made you laugh cause you're scum? The whole thing in context is a sensible inquiry man.

You asked how Ben found CES and TSQ scum together.
Ben said he didn't have an opinion on TSQ yet.
You quoted a reads list where he put CES, TSQ, Amrun, and Bub under "remainders" in red lettering.
He noted the "remainders".
But you couldn't take that because he colored them red. Not because he had townreads on everyone else and because there were not many of them there, but because they were in red.

You couldn't be trying to have it both ways on this issue could you? Nah...

I was pointing out that I disagreed with the logic although I still found Llama scummy. Regfan pointed out the same thing after Llamarble's post in #642:

See, while I can follow your logic here I also think after last year and given his meta or liking pure scumhunting I think he would take white flag REGARDLESS of the role that his team had in it thereby nullifiying this entire line of logic or reasoning. Though I do think his play alone is scummy.

Hey, we've both been laying similar pushes on TSQ, so it should be entertaining to hear from you how you came to different conclusions regarding us. Don't worry, I have popcorn ready.

Spoiler: side by side

singer:

Has Shea posted yet?

Nope?

confirm vote: Thestatusquo

Zach:

Has Shea posted yet?

Nope?

confirm vote: Thestatusquo

Sure he has, if you're counting posts that aren't being made in this game.

Unvote: Vote: Thestatusquo

singer:

Gawdfuckingdamnit.

I'm doing the additions of thoughts to my previous post of quotes as we speak.

Shea's still scumscumscum. Notice how he came back to the game RIGHT as another wagon took off. Convenient. Also, his vote on CES is and he's only reading Amrun as town to discourage her from hoping on his wagon.

In the words of Team Skittles: KILL IT, KILL IT WITH FIRE.

Zach:

It's time for TSQ to burn.

How much more lurking do you need?

singer:

This is the only post in your ISO that DOESN'T have to do with you (minus one calling Amrun town?). Why is defending yourself the only important thing, when, as you say, you're not even "up on the chopping block" as far as you're concerned. If you don't think you're going to be lynched, then why is most of your attention on yourself?

See, the problem is no long that you're lurking, but that you're not contributing while insisting that you are, only concerned with yourself while claiming that you're posting "content," and repeating the same arguments...probably to make it look like you're posting more content than you are.

I'd really like you to address the questions that have been posed to you thus far, Shea, because I see you decided they were worth skipping.

Zach:

On TSQ's town reads. They are exclusively on people who were on the fence with him annoyed with his lurking, but not sure if it made him scum. I think that's all that needs to be said there.

singer:

Basically it comes down to this: Shea just said that the lurking case on his was bullshit, and now that he was around and posting, he should be lynched because of lurking...but the only things he was posting AT THAT TIME were defenses of his lack of lurking. It's a twisted circle, and I haven't seen him provide anything that's worthy of labeling as "content."

Zach:

I really don't want to reward TSQ's play/lack of play by allowing him to get any deeper in the game, especially when there's a really good chance that it's scum motivated on his part. (To all those arguments that it makes him town. Fuck you.) To me, that's a lot worse than lynching anyone else who's actually bothered to contribute reasonably today.

Vote TSQ in 2012!

singer:

I'm tired of empty promises from Shea. He promised his catch up analysis last night and what did he do for hours instead? JUST GUESS.

I was willing to be patient, but enough's enough.

vote: Thestatusquo

Zach:

I'm with you in spirit, but at the moment I am suffering from I only have one voteitus.

singer:

If you wanna play that game, can you simultaneously talk your mother out of kicking your brother out of the house and be in scumchat talking about this girl who won't get back to you about an "adventure" you were planning on taking her on THE NIGHT YOU PROMISE A CATCH UP ANALYSIS. No. You made a fucking commitment. Don't talk about "my mother this" while you plan a date the same night you promised content. Or were you planning on simultaneously doing those things together as well?

Fucking-A. All we wanted was an excuse, an explanation, something, anything, to offer up why you received three prods D1, why you didn't deliver last night, why you didn't replace out sooner. But you continue you waste our time, talk in circles, No, he overstepped his welcome. Sorry replacement, you can feel free to blame Shea for not even giving you a chance to pretend you're town.

Zach:

Or she's frustrated because she actually believes he (and his slot) are scum and can't get him lynched.

The main point against TSQ is that in showing as much site activity as he has, he clearly has time for this game and is choosing/chose not to participate in it. The real life issues he claims to have aren't relevant, the choice is.

So, in short, singer actually believed that TSQ was scum, made an effort to come up with new reasons as to why TSQ was scum, kept pushing the wagon the next day, and actually responded to him when he posted.
You parked your vote on him, brought the "he's not here but posting elsewhere" reason all the way to the bank, and dropped it after his wagon wouldn't work the first time.

There's a big difference.

Why does the idea of me sheeping CES bother you so? WHY?

you can sheep people, that's cool.
as long as you do something except for sheep them.
and all you do is sheep. that's it.

Me lurking? Are you serious? I think I'm going to have to laugh now.

Active lurking. Making a lot of posts, not really saying shit.
Also, why did you pressure Ben and TSQ while ignoring Socio completely?

You're well over the limit of mentioning how scummy socio is without doing anything about it at this point. WAY OVER THE LIMIT.

Sorry, I only have one vote. Socio doesn't shit all over the thread quite as much as you do.

Cool your narrative on Socio makes way more sense than your narrative on me... yet...

My narrative on you being scum makes less sense than my narrative on my other scumsuspect. Imagine that.

So I'm scum for WIFOM purposes? WOW.

That's not all I wrote, now was it?

There's literally no way Nacho comes to the conclusions he has if he's actually legitimately trying to read me. HIS case is literally I chose scum for WIFOM reasons. Cut through all the bullshit, and that's what it is.

because you doing nothing but sheeping CES is you choosing scum for WIFOM reasons
not doing shit while attackers others is you choosing scum for WIFOM reasons
you attacking TSQ and Benmage while ignoring obvious lurker Socio is you choosing scum for WIFOM reasons
seriously, how is this all you got out of my case on you?

[Nachomamma8]

Also on the OMGUS issue, I was voting TSQ most of the first day phase, and I haven't backed off on calling the slot scum... so OMGUS... right.

Seriously Bub... if you are town here, this is why you lose games.

welp, Bub's town.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho's activity level looks high compared to Nacho scum.
I like his catch up.
I think CES is a good chunk more likely to be scum than Zach though.
VOTE: CES

I'm going to look at Amrun's wagon though. CES wasn't on it.

Also last year I killed IPie Because he was obvtown and wrongly listed me as town and I didn't want to give him a chance to change his mind. There are a lot of possible reasons for Regfan to die and I'm going to reread his / Amrun's arguments.

Last time you tried this, you didn't get CES lynched.
What new things are you bringing to the table?

[Zachrulez]

Nacho, I didn't join the Amrun wagon because I thought she was town strongly. I'm pretty sure I stated that pretty clearly. I DID push TSQ for day one. My ISO will show this.

Also on the OMGUS issue, I was voting TSQ most of the first day phase, and I haven't backed off on calling the slot scum... so OMGUS... right.

Seriously Bub... if you are town here, this is why you lose games.

welp, Bub's town.

That's pretty much the read I've had since early day 1.

[Zachrulez]

Ok, maybe not as clearly. But my town read on Amrun was stated here.

[singersigner]

I can't explain without point deductions.

Let me just say CES has two different opinions.

I'm tired of people using ~reasons unknown~ to either vote for someone or call them scummy (Amrun did this yesterday). If that's the only thing you have going for you and you can't even explain it, then how is that ANY better than someone who places an empty vote?

As far as who is scummy, I think that Socio guy is scummy as hell.
He has lurked all game, and hasn't provided much content. (if ANY real content)
Hasn't been helpful at all, hasn't been cooperative with the town and clear townies out there.
Still alive D2 despite being on the returning champion's team with all the insight and knowledge that goes with that.
Has said ONE WORD today so far, which only looks to have been said to dodge prods.

Add "goes after easy targets" to that list. Matias is probtown.

How in the world is going after Matias an "easy target"? You admit he's one of the towniest players, by far...would that not mean it would be even harder to convince people to lynch him?

Did SocioPath regurgitate a read from mid Day 1 that is 100% outdated, using it as a vote for early to mid Day 2?

..Socio, do you really have nothing else to say about anyone else?

It's not the read, it's the contradiction. Reads can change and not be indicative of alignment, but making contradictions while making/changing them is scummy.

Also, if that has anything to do with my lynching Amrun, remember that my vote on Amrun was not ideal in the slightest. It was just the only one I could compromise on, because like fuck was I going to lynch TSQ.

And I still don't understand how you weren't willing to take a second look at it. Especially today when I called him out on a lie that you're still disregarding. You also haven't given me evidence of Shea acting like this as town when you say it's not indicative of alignment...even though I've asked twice now.

Sorry about not posting. I've been following the game, but I don't really have much to say when my number 1 scumread right now is lurking. Do you hear that Llmarble? Get the fuck in here.

Also, socio's reads are total bullshit. He called two the consensus most townie players scumbuds. But to me, it almost seems like Socio's trying to make himself look townie by saying stuff that scum would "never" say. Like calling himself scummy. Like attacking two players with no votes on them. It really seems forced to me, but that's just a gut read

Matias, yes. You, no.

I have a bad gut feeling of the Llamarble wagon and I think it might be scum driven (I think the case is weak and there was no wagon yesterday).

I'll also ask yet again why SocioPath isn't scum, because to me his lurking was ten times worse than TSQ's lurking but despite this TSQ was the only one to get called out for it.

Because SHEA'S lurking was SCUMMY. Socio wasn't ignored by any means, and he certainly was called scummy for it a couple times. I just believe that Socio had town motivation for doing so, and Shea had scum motivation for doing so (which I've pointed out several times).

If Regfan had 6 strong correct townreads, then he would defend him. Killing him gets suspicion thrown on me and llamarble, and it means that scum can safely push people in that pool of 6 without getting too much shit for it.

see: Sociopath.

This is shit. There was suspicion on BOTH of you from the start of D1, and as far as I can see, no one's even attributed the suspicion on the two of you today as being a result of the night kill (please correct me if I missed something). Sluffing off the suspicion on you to the night kill is 100% wrong.

All that love from Nacho and he can't even look me in the eyes.

And?

Don't act so confused. Benmage ain't doing shit, and that's not the Benmage I know.

Are there any examples of ScumBenmage acting like that? (Hint: the answer is no)

Any examples of TownBenmage acting lackadaisical? (Hint: Yep)

I was wrong. The only experience with you (that I can remember) is from Weather Mafia II where you were town, and I must've gotten a weird vibe from you at the beginning, because Zach's right, this isn't the aggressive town Benmage I saw there (sleeping dragon aside >_>). Can you give me evidence of you doing this as town?

unvote; vote: zach

That case on nacho is terrible. The whole thing is total fluff that's been trumped up with quotes to make it look like something. It basically boils down to "y u voting me when u say socio scum, too." Which is stupid. The whole case is OMGUS.

Zach's already pointed out why this is the worst ever. He's had suspicion on Nacho's slot since the beginning of time, so if anything Nacho's case is OMGUS. Just because you don't place the first vote, doesn't mean you weren't the first to cast suspicion.

Ok, so I know Nacho's been doing catchups in walls (as have I), but I haven't read his and Zach's exchange in full yet. I DID note the spoiled thing in his most recent post, and to be fair Zach was the first one to bring up that Shea was posting around the site but not in this game. I had only his activity in scumchat to reference. There was another thing that I noticed but I can't remember it right now.

Notes:
-Amrun's something that I need to reread or do something about that I'm too lazy to go back and see what Matias was talking about again...
-Nacho/Zach stuff that I'm too lazy to read right now.

Oh, and this CES wagon is crap, too.

[singersigner]

Also, it's funny that Nacho and Zach used the same reasons for not switching votes (only have one). lulz.

Also, also, Nacho, I'd like to know what you think of the CES wagon.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

You asked how Ben found CES and TSQ scum together.
Ben said he didn't have an opinion on TSQ yet.
You quoted a reads list where he put CES, TSQ, Amrun, and Bub under "remainders" in red lettering.
He noted the "remainders".
But you couldn't take that because he colored them red. Not because he had townreads on everyone else and because there were not many of them there, but because they were in red.

How does Zach's alignment come into this, exactly?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

How in the world is going after Matias an "easy target"? You admit he's one of the towniest players, by far...would that not mean it would be even harder to convince people to lynch him?

He's very easy to attack though. I do think he's pretty townie but that's despite a bunch of things he did; I could fabricate a case on him, no problem.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Nacho's activity level looks high compared to Nacho scum.

Do you think Nachoscum could afford not to be this active? The silly anti-Zach stuff is very much consistent with scum trying to force it a little.

[Johhog]

VOTE: Benmage

He's blatantly lurking and his only defence is some WIFOM bullshit. I'm willing to leave SocioPath for now as his play this game has been consistent at least while Benmage was active earlier but now when he isn't getting any heat he's just spouting out one-liners to dodge prods.

[Bub Bidderskins]

I HAVE RETURNED.
If anybody actually thinks I was lurking tactically, I am happy to provide a list of the things I've done in the last 10 days.

Why do you feel the need to offer that?

Also Bub, my post wasn't a "case." It was more tearing Nacho's crap down.

Wait, did just admit to voting for nacho without a case?

Singer, get out of your TSQ rut. Seriously. Is nacho's posting townie or scummy?

[singersigner]

1. Showing how wrong someone is doesn't make a case, but if being wrong makes them scummy, then you sure as hell better vote/suspect them. You basically just slung suspicion on him without acknowledging there was still purpose to his line of questioning/poking/etc.

2. Did you see me unvote?

Though I do agree with wondering why Llamarble felt the need to specify that he could provide "proof" of his absence...

[Benmage]

he's just spouting out one-liners to dodge prods.

qft

[Captain Falcon]

why do you think zach is town?

I think I've already explained this, but I'll say it again since you just replaced in.

How far along with your read through are you?

Anyway, I think Zach is town because I, Oversoul, just played a game with Zach where we were both scum. He announced in the QuickTopic that he hated playing scum because he was generally worse as scum than town. He lurked as scum and postured when he did rarely post which caused others in the town to suspect him. He stated he finds being scum stressful which is something he didn't like.

Zach isn't lurking in this game and he is taking stances on people. In addition, given the option to play scum, or to not play scum, I highly doubt Zach would take the chance of being scum

Also on the OMGUS issue, I was voting TSQ most of the first day phase, and I haven't backed off on calling the slot scum... so OMGUS... right.

Seriously Bub... if you are town here, this is why you lose games.

welp, Bub's town.

This is faulty logic and continues on the path of no one really explaining why Bub is town.

Are you basing this comment on the fact that you think Zach is scum?

I'm tired of people using ~reasons unknown~ to either vote for someone or call them scummy (Amrun did this yesterday). If that's the only thing you have going for you and you can't even explain it, then how is that ANY better than someone who places an empty vote?

They aren't reasons unknown and I've already eluded to the reasoning, but I was warned which is why I am now being cryptic.

My teammate thinks I am wrong about the CES read anyway and admittedly my vote is primarily based on the "unknown" reason.

Though I do agree with wondering why Llamarble felt the need to specify that he could provide "proof" of his absence...

I third that notion.

VOTE: Llmarble

[Captain Falcon]

I also ask Nacho and Zach to stop cross voting since that accomplishes nothing and is flooding the thread with ego driven walls.

[Nachomamma8]

Because SHEA'S lurking was SCUMMY. Socio wasn't ignored by any means, and he certainly was called scummy for it a couple times. I just believe that Socio had town motivation for doing so, and Shea had scum motivation for doing so (which I've pointed out several times).

but. he's. still. lurking.
and now he's attacking obvtown Matias, for no apparent reason.
How long will you let that go on? Until LyLo, when he kicks it into high gear? Fuck that.

This is shit. There was suspicion on BOTH of you from the start of D1, and as far as I can see, no one's even attributed the suspicion on the two of you today as being a result of the night kill (please correct me if I missed something). Sluffing off the suspicion on you to the night kill is 100% wrong.

That was my response to CES asking why I thought scum would kill Reg if me and Llama were both town. I wasn't blaming the suspicion on the night kill at all.

Also, also, Nacho, I'd like to know what you think of the CES wagon.

It sucks. Llama is probably scum on it.

How does Zach's alignment come into this, exactly?

He was making up bullshit reasoning in order to make Ben look like a liar after he said he didn't call TSQ scum. I find that scummy.

How far along with your read through are you?

I'm done.

He lurked as scum and postured when he did rarely post which caused others in the town to suspect him. He stated he finds being scum stressful which is something he didn't like.

What game was this?

This is faulty logic and continues on the path of no one really explaining why Bub is town.

Are you basing this comment on the fact that you think Zach is scum?

The quickest way to a man's heart is following his vote.
Bub is town for other reasons, though.

[Zachrulez]

I also ask Nacho and Zach to stop cross voting since that accomplishes nothing and is flooding the thread with ego driven walls.

I wrote one wall and I'm done responding to him in that fashion now because that's what it will turn into.

[Nachomamma8]

Why do you think that I'm scum?

[Zachrulez]

Also on the OMGUS issue, I was voting TSQ most of the first day phase, and I haven't backed off on calling the slot scum... so OMGUS... right.

Seriously Bub... if you are town here, this is why you lose games.

welp, Bub's town.

This is faulty logic and continues on the path of no one really explaining why Bub is town.

Are you basing this comment on the fact that you think Zach is scum?

I think he's trying to say it's a scum slip on my part.