In post 916, Formerfish wrote:This is fucking trash. I've been laying in bed wide awake for the last like 3 hours tossing and turning because I should go to bed and be normal, but I literally can't fall asleep.
I think I might get up and drink a red bull.
Discuss
Join me in sleeping on a Vladivostok schedule while living in the Americas
dooo eeeet
Posted: Mon May 18, 2020 9:23 pm
by Formerfish
I don't know what that is. I've pretty much been running on the sleep from 8am to 1-2pm and then from 9pm to 1-3am.
In post 92, Freddiethelady wrote:Gibus you’re like a ping pong ball with your votes. It’s looking sloppy and thoughtless. At some point I’m going to ask you to justify that. Are you prepared to do that?
This is a weird question. Why not ask him to justify them now? This feels like you have clocked an easy push and are just holding back for an opportune moment.
Last thing before painting time! This part of the case kept niggling at me.
Since you were reading it as part of catch up, Tuxedo, it should be particularly obvious that what Freddie said to Gibus was in the context of a very long RVS during which Gibus was hopping around a lot. Other players have even later commented that this was a good move to discourage the vote hopping so that the game could start doing serious votes and play instead and was one of the reasons that players were giving town reads of Freddie early on. Do you disagree with the timing context and the others' assessmentsor were you scanning back for quotes to cast as suspicious?
I think that this back and forth between Freddie and Tuxedo was in a short enough span of time that it's unlikely they are scum together and pre-coordinated the interaction or something.
I think that CopyKat had much, much scummier posts than Freddie does, still, so I'm still leaning town on Freddie. Basically, I read CopyKat's posts as being wildly Noobscum, while I read Freddie's posts as mostly newbie or occasionally non-newbie-scum.
Also I really don't think that Freddie being aware of being called out as scummy or low hanging fruit is alignment indicative. I see town do that frequently, even outside of newbie games. I think taking one's own behavior as perceived by others as a data point is a good analytical ability.
PEdit: @Formerfish it's a city at the very eastern end of Russia which aligns with my sleep schedule a hell of a lot closer than PST does
Alright party people, we need to start working our way to a lynch here. Tux and Wave are the leading wagons with 2 each, 3 vanity wagon votes, and 2 on the bench.
Lil, Osuka and Wave should unvote and indicate where they would vote between wave and tux
OR
We need to figure out who we are going to pivot to if one of the two leading wagons arent going to be pushed to a claim and then a lynch or a switch needs to occur.
We have 2 1/3 days to coordinate all of this and that can get hairy if we dont kinda light a fire under some asses.
Posted: Mon May 18, 2020 11:55 pm
by gibus
I should point out that Tuxedo has a vote on Fred. That makes it a three man tie.
Fixed.
Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 12:29 am
by Formerfish
So essentially this just became about Freddie and Tux, because if freddies vote is on the bench when someone is voting him I see where this is going.
Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 12:38 am
by Formerfish
VOTE: Freddie
We aren't lynching Tux today unless someone builds a fucking scotus level brief against them and destroys the view I have of that slot on review.
Copy was bleeding town.
Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 12:39 am
by Formerfish
Thats l-2 btw
Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 1:23 am
by Freddiethelady
In post 902, votato wrote:you should use the "preview post" function to see what your posts will look like before posting.
thanks. i will try it now.
Oh I see my mistake. i scrolled down, not up to see the preview. ugh.
I’m suspicious that Lilith is a little more experienced then she’s letting on. I’m not sure why she jumped on the gibus wagon either. I’d love to hear an explanation since it could be AI.
i was trying to sound clever. it was a really stupid comment that was sparked because of a misunderstanding of who was new. i honestly thought there mods would put one or two SE's with a bunch of newbies and i thought she might be one of them...boy was a wrong about the newbie to SE proportions. yes, it was a rocky start! i was trying to take the advice of a form that said (im paraphrasing) 'share your thoughts and don't be afraid of being wrong occasionally. it helps the game if you try to be genuine and explore your thoughts and observations.'
I still don't think this has been answered. It seems like the start of Freddie's Lilith read, which is pretty rocky ground.
In post 104, Freddiethelady wrote:I’m trying to learn the distinction also. its like throwing darts at a wall. I think the simple answer is that scum will try to be as inconspicuous as possible. Paying close attention to what a person says and how they say can Give you subtle hints. I’m not good at this yet but a healthy dose of skepticism will help you start to weed out leading clues vs gibberish. It’s not rocket surgery but it does take some practice.
Applying your thought process here, have you uncovered subtle hints in what people are saying? And would agree that applying this logic to your own posts would read them as scummy?
i've been trying to. i think confirmation bias is easily applied here because clearly youre less than impressed. ill get better at the rocket surgery asap!
In post 92, Freddiethelady wrote:Gibus you’re like a ping pong ball with your votes. It’s looking sloppy and thoughtless. At some point I’m going to ask you to justify that. Are you prepared to do that?
This is a weird question. Why not ask him to justify them now? This feels like you have clocked an easy push and are just holding back for an opportune moment.
justify now? as in this moment?
In post 345, Freddiethelady wrote:
Lilith hasn’t posted much lately, has she? I wonder why. Ive been suspicious of her without being able to collect my thoughts or any evidence (if in fact there is any) against her yet.
This happened 7 irl days ago, and over HALF the game ago. Yet they have still done nothing with this. Where is the evidence Freddie? Where are the reads?
i don't know yet. i do like her. i like her questions and observations and i loved how she ate fried fish during her arguments with him. what say you @lilith? how can i engage you or anyone better?
So reading Freddie I don't find scum hunting, it is mostly excuses and questions about site stuff. There is very little pushes or curiosity. I also read through their ISO of Newbie 1997 and they feel very different there. For one, they replaced into that game and have nearly as many posts there as they do here. And in that game, they don't seem nearly as lost and unsure, constantly pursuing things and asking questions. This really feels like scum that doesn't know what to say.
VOTE: Freddiethelady
i know im sus, its okay. its easy to pick on low hanging fruit isn't it especially when you subbed into the slot you did? copycat was pretty anxious
@Freddie: Did I successfully pick out the parts of this comment that YOU wrote? I was so extremely confused by the formatting screw up that I'm putting this here to potentially help clarify for anybody else
In post 886, Freddiethelady wrote:i know im sus, its okay. its easy to pick on low hanging fruit isn't it especially when you subbed into the slot you did? copycat was pretty anxious
You can't call yourself low hanging fruit. If you do then it indicates you know what you're doing is subpar for town, yet are still doing it anyways for some reason.
I agree that it's little blurbs like this that you probably feel is how town should react, but it's really really not.
cool! that's the first time someone has indicated i *might* know what im doing here! lets just go a head and move my experience to SE...its damn near perfect
In post 871, Freddiethelady wrote:"Do you think that Formerfish would have hopped off of the wagon to attack the person who left the wagon just before him whether it was your or Lilith interchangeably?"
@nauci that was what I was trying to figure out. I explained why i unvoted ironcat and fishy immediately abandoned his suspicions of ironcat to vote me. i really didn't know what to make of that, except that he wasn't committed to his vote, or he and his scumbuddy were just trying to lynch anyone...i suspect a sloppy move like that it would be a newbie thing to do, but fishy is obviously not newbie so it leaves the alternative. am i missing something?
I think this is a pretty simplistic view of the game. Town is ignorant and paranoid, shifting focus, and constantly pursuing new leads is part of why I town read FF. Do you really think it is that simple to catch scum? That ScumFF would immediately abandon a lynch he wants because you moved off? Or is it more likely that Town!FF who has a lot less info, and don't actually know Cat's alignment, but only has suspicions would suddenly be MORE suspicious of your sudden abandonment of the wagon?
I didn't think my explanation was a 'sudden abandonment'...it took me days to come to that, i said that, and i didn't vote someone else...where as FF did. he just said 'freddie, youre sus cause you changed your mind'. is that how we role? that points to a lot of scummy people here - im newbie, he isn't. im being thoughtful. he shouldn't be given a get out of jail free card for that one, in my opinion.
and no, i definitely don't think finding scum is that easy. you seem to think it is though - youre picking on the new kid saying im clever enough to be scum....while i appreciate the comment, i think lots of people here can see youre just wrong on this one.
I think you're misinterpreting (or mischaracterizing) again here
Tuxedo was saying that you shouldn't have scumread FF for what he did, not that he's scum reading you for it in that specific part
Oh, okay. to clarify (he means FF not tux) FF was scum reading me for unvoting ironcat? but then why did FF vote for me right after?
In post 893, Freddiethelady wrote:
and no, i definitely don't think finding scum is that easy. you seem to think it is though - youre picking on the new kid saying im clever enough to be scum....while i appreciate the comment, i think lots of people here can see youre just wrong on this one.
Hey, look at our join dates. I'm as new around these parts as you are. I'm taking other's thoughts into consideration, it's why I'm asking them to give me a more in-depth explanation into your slot. But I also want to be better and standing with my reads, so I'm not ready to drop this yet. Though the antagonism between us is something I'm not enjoying, so I'd rather that get dropped as we continue discussing.
In post 898, Freddiethelady wrote:
I still don't think this has been answered. It seems like the start of Freddie's Lilith read, which is pretty rocky ground.
here are the comments i made when i messed up (sorry again!)
i was trying to sound clever. it was a really stupid comment that was sparked because of a misunderstanding of who was new. i honestly thought there mods would put one or two SE's with a bunch of newbies and i thought she might be one of them...boy was a wrong about the newbie to SE proportions. yes, it was a rocky start! i was trying to take the advice of a form that said (im paraphrasing) 'share your thoughts and don't be afraid of being wrong occasionally. it helps the game if you try to be genuine and explore your thoughts and observations.'
i've been trying to. i think confirmation bias is easily applied here because clearly youre less than impressed. ill get better at the rocket surgery asap!
justify now? as in this moment?
i don't know yet. i do like her. i like her questions and observations and i loved how she ate fried fish during her arguments with him. what say you @lilith? how can i engage you or anyone better?
1: Thanks for the honesty, the amount of SEs seems like a weird assumption to make. It's public knowledge. Why did it take you so long to say this?
2: I meant at that moment? Why not just as Gibus to justify his votes as he was making them, not saying you will later.
3: Well it sounds like you do know. Do you think that lilith being better at arguing than Fish is town indictive? Or just playstyle?
In post 886, Freddiethelady wrote:i know im sus, its okay. its easy to pick on low hanging fruit isn't it especially when you subbed into the slot you did? copycat was pretty anxious
What's with this shade? You're also parroting what others have said, again. Do you scum read my slot? I don't see it in your ISO.
was i shading myself? lol
im parroting people i think are right and faster to get to the point than i am.
No, you're shading me. Being "low hanging fruit" is not a defense of your actions. You're essentially scum reading me for scum reading you. Then you also throw Copy Cat under the bus, when it didn't even seem like you were scum reading them before. Who are you scum reading?
@Votato & CsGO guy I forget your name can you answer my questions about Freedie's slot?
I have more, but I gotta sleep because my SO is mad at me for playing in bed. Sorry.
1. why did i explain it until now or why wasn't it obvious to me when i made the comment? ill answer both to save time: because i was too embarrassed to admit how stupid that comment was and im not sure why it wasn't obvious to me when i made the comment. i don't really know how to go back in time to point out why i didn't notice something...it just didn't didn't occur to me.
2. ugh, i don't know. when a lot of comments pile up i felt overwhelmed by how much i felt like i needed to respond to and underwhelmed by how little i felt i could add to the analysis.
3. it was just playstyle and articulation. fish was being a dick and she called him out point for point. i was impressed, but have no AI because of that particular comment.
3a. during RVS she seemed like the only serious person, which made me thing she was scum. i recognize that is the thinnest argument for SR in the history of mafia but i wasn't able to develop an opinion beyond that. she still seems a little scummy to me at times but not as scummy as fish - i didn't know how to touch that though. fish was too big for me to fry (lol). the other thing i couldn't decipher as the game developed was whether lilith looked better in proximity cause fish was a dick, or if she just better at being inconspicuous during all the noise and she was really just lurking. (i still don't know how to make that distinction). it seems to me that i've spent more time defending some vague shadowing i cast on lilith than developing a solid read on her...which is why i didn't vote her i just mused. so i know this isn't helpful, i'm just trying to explain my reasoning since everyone keeps asking me to explain myself.
3 people on a wagon puts pressure on the person being run up.
You took away the pressure for little reasoning, and did nothing with your vote after unvoting.
So I voted for you for releasing the pressure on the wagon and for doing nothing with your vote.
Continue to misrep me please, i love it.
ahhhhhhh, i see. okay! thanks. that helps!
also, you don't have to ask for more misrep...i do it a lot apparently...its bound to happen again.
Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 2:30 am
by Tuxedo Mask
In post 927, Nauci wrote:Since you were reading it as part of catch up, Tuxedo, it should be particularly obvious that what Freddie said to Gibus was in the context of a very long RVS during which Gibus was hopping around a lot. Other players have even later commented that this was a good move to discourage the vote hopping so that the game could start doing serious votes and play instead and was one of the reasons that players were giving town reads of Freddie early on. Do you disagree with the timing context and the others' assessmentsor were you scanning back for quotes to cast as suspicious?
I do know the context. Gibus continued to RVS (shortly after) and, Votato in jumping with an actual explanation of why he should stop and Lilith's vote also helped cut those things out.
However, my main point was that saying "I'll ask later" and not just asking then felt weird. I don't see the town motivation for it, and asking him to justify it then would have been just as effective. Do you agree?
In post 901, Freddiethelady wrote:the rest of the post read: I didn't think my explanation was a 'sudden abandonment'...it took me days to come to that, i said that, and i didn't vote someone else...where as FF did. he just said 'freddie, youre sus cause you changed your mind'. is that how we role? that points to a lot of scummy people here - im newbie, he isn't. im being thoughtful. he shouldn't be given a get out of jail free card for that one, in my opinion.
and no, i definitely don't think finding scum is that easy. you seem to think it is though - youre picking on the new kid saying im clever enough to be scum....while i appreciate the comment, i think lots of people here can see youre just wrong on this one.
Okay, this was the last thing I wanted to address last night. Freddie when I say your unvote was sudden, it is because it was. Read the game and your progression on Ironcat, it isn't in this game. Maybe it took you IRL days to reach that conclusion, but we can't see or prove that. All we have to go on is what you posted. So to us, it is sudden. Very earlier on Votato said the best way for us to town read people is for them to play the game. When you're keeping everything back because you're scared of how it'll make you look well then it makes you look bad. Bad = scummy not bad = you suck.
Also, do stop using the newbie card on me. We joined at around the same time, and both only have one completed game. Something we replaced into late.
Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 2:52 am
by Tuxedo Mask
In post 931, Formerfish wrote:So essentially this just became about Freddie and Tux, because if freddies vote is on the bench when someone is voting him I see where this is going.
Don't mean to shit on your parade, but what do you think of Freddie's recent posts?
I'm torn because they're really leaning into the newbie pass other players are giving them, and their sudden verbosity is a hell of a 180 from their previous postings. Some of their answers don't sit well with me like suddenly hinting they've been scum reading Copy Cat.
However, many of their answers to my questions feel genuine. It's unfortunate it took so long to get them, but they aren't stretching to make things make sense. Just admitting cleanly to mistakes.
Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 3:18 am
by votato
I won't be lynching Freddie today. Yes there have been some bad posts. Freddie needs to do a better job explaining her thoughts. But i know her well enough that i think i can read her pretty well. Anyone on that wagon when it flips town gets major scum points for not listening to me and backing off. It sucks that brass replaced out. I trusted him and felt like i could work with him. Wave seems off in his own little world. If tuxedo isnt happening today i can compromise on osuka
In post 649, osuka wrote:hahahah I was thinking to myself, ironcat reads as town before I realized that's my fucking slot
what a day
Can you explain what you town reading about Ironcat's posts?
In post 645, osuka wrote:gibus does not read mafia right now but I'd love to hear your reasons as to why freddie is town
What do you think of the defenses for Freddie raised? Also can you explain your scum read of Freddie? I see the vote on a post you call scummy, but that was a super early post. Anything else?
Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 5:49 am
by gibus
@wavesarc
In post 846, wavesarc wrote:I don't like his behavior around the gibus wagon--he's scumreading copykat at this point, but doesn't vote for her until the momentum shifts from gibus to her.
I thought #254 was a fluff post. Copykat just replaced at that point so scumreading him doesn't make sense. Votato was the one who fully shifted the momentum by paraphrasing #283.
It fits into his pattern of behavior so far this game--his posts lack content, and really a lot of his early stuff was just answering questions. I agree that the townreading questioning is something scum could be afraid to do, but I also don't think it's a big risk--it's just a lot of WIFOM tbh. I think votato's general vibe has been pretty cheeky and that he would be comfortable saying something like that.
Your case does not look clear at all to me. Are you scumreading votato for having a lack of content (in the early part of the game)?
I don't think votato has been pushing much at all. At least not in a way that would cause major direction. He's really just gone after low hanging fruit: feathers at the beginning, ironcat when they were in their feelings, copykat after her L-1 vote.
He did push on copy's slot with good reason, did go after lilith and fish and he strongly townread feathers.
The read looks awkward to me in a way that suggests you aren't really looking for scum. Do you have any other reads?
Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 5:55 am
by lilith2013
In post 945, gibus wrote:He did push on copy's slot with good reason, did go after lilith and fish and he strongly townread feathers.
The scumreads on me and fish didn’t really go anywhere though, like he didn’t actively engage with either one of us or even copykat really to further develop the reads, and he didn’t really “go after” anyone in terms of hard pushes, so it seems he is playing the game at arm’s length. I think wavesarc made some good points - I don’t see a lot of pushing or gamesolving in votato’s posts.
Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 5:56 am
by lilith2013
VOTE: votato
Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 5:58 am
by votato
interesting. you dont think ive "gone after" copykat?
Posted: Tue May 19, 2020 6:03 am
by lilith2013
You interacted with copykat a total of one time when explaining your vote on him and then never talked to that slot again
