Yeah,I'm not a huge fan of Sakura's logic here. When I said "what Sakura said" earlier i was referring to the exact post by you that she was quoting more than anything else.
I don't think he was actually "trying" to accomplish anything in particular. Assuming Mirhawk is scum, this was purely a case where scum knowledge informed behavior.
pedit: I'm going to need to check your iso to confirm that Mirhawk. I believe I recall a greater degree of suspicion of the counterclaim than was reasonable, in my opinion, from the very beginning, coupled with an expression of uncertainty about the situation and a terrible "ah fuck it" vote.
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:21 pm
by Rob14
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:24 pm
by Amihan
↑Sakura Hana wrote:So I headed back to read what the crap is going on about wrt Mirhawk.
But it didnt matter because:
↑Mirhawk wrote:I decided after posting that there was no way find out if the CC was legit or not without flipping one or both of the people involved, so I voted for pistachio anyways.
This right there is scum lining up lynches.
with that said i dont mind Mirhawk dying today either VOTE: Mirhawk
If I had to call one of the people in this exchange scum for opportunistic voting... it wouldn't be Mirhawk.
The reasoning overall is sound, but it's starting to feel too much like people harping on a town logic error. Mirhawk's responses don't even sound that bad (I might even be starting to like him read-wise), and how people from all across the board just enter taking only a short time to vote Mirhawk... I'm getting the impression that scum really like this wagon.
Can we lynch Skybird instead please?
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:25 pm
by Axelrod
↑Cerberus v666 wrote:Axelrod, I think everything through. Too far through, generally speaking. Your point that scum!Mirhawk has little to nothing to gain from reacting this way in this circumstance is valid, but that doesn't change the fact that he did act in a fashion which, contrary to your beliefs, really does not make any sense. If you have ANY doubt about a counterclaim, you don't lynch the fucking original claim. How backwards is that?
How so? I strongly disagree with your statement that you don't lynch the original claimant if you have ANY doubts about the counter. That's kind of case by case, isn't it? There will be plenty of times when I'm not sure who to believe, but I believe one of them needs to get lynched.
↑Cerberus v666 wrote:Axelrod, I think everything through. Too far through, generally speaking. Your point that scum!Mirhawk has little to nothing to gain from reacting this way in this circumstance is valid, but that doesn't change the fact that he did act in a fashion which, contrary to your beliefs, really does not make any sense. If you have ANY doubt about a counterclaim, you don't lynch the fucking original claim. How backwards is that?
How so? I strongly disagree with your statement that you don't lynch the original claimant if you have ANY doubts about the counter. That's kind of case by case, isn't it? There will be plenty of times when I'm not sure who to believe, but I believe one of them needs to get lynched.
That means you have doubts about both. He didn't say that. He specifically had doubts about the counterclaim.
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:30 pm
by Mirhawk
↑Cerberus v666 wrote:Mirhawk, it is perfectly reasonable for town!Mirhawk to have looked at the situation and come to the conclusion that one of the two claims is likely fake. Your CERTAINTY of that, though, was far greater than an uninformed slot SHOULD have had. Perhaps you're just confident, but that confidence looks like the sort of confidence a scum slot can have when they "fight" against a mislynch because they KNOW the person is town.
Do you follow that?
Alright, now the lying idea. If you believed that there was truly no counterclaim to pistachion's claim, why did you vote for her? Your response to this was that you figured the only way to sort out whether the counterclaim was true or not was to flip one or both of those slots claiming miller. Your response does NOT address the question. You were confident it was a fake counterclaim. There is no reason to vote pistachion, or to attempt to flip EITHER party on the basis of that alone. Therefore, either you are lying about your belief that it was fake at that time, OR you are lying about what your reason was for continuing to vote pistachion.
If there's another explanation, I would be glad to hear it.
Except my certainty wasn't uninformed. It was because Ami kept dodging the question every time someone asked her if she was a Miller or not.
I voted for pistachio because at the time I did think it was a legit counterclaim. It wasn't until several posts later that I changed my mind.
This is all stuff that's in the thread. Hell in the last three pages even. I get that you haven't read the whole thread yet but its kind of annoying me that you're demanding answers to things I just said.
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:30 pm
by Amihan
↑Rob14 wrote:Mirhawk: davesaz, THE WRONG LYNCH, SirCakez, The Pied Piper, Cerberus v666, Sakura Hana (6)
It felt like more than just 6 people voted him. Certainly more than 6 people have been forming what feels like a mob against him.
I don't remember how the first two joined, but I think I remember TWL's reasoning. There wasn't anything bad about it, but nothing town-sounding either.
I liked how SirCakez and The Pied Piper expressed their dislike for Mirhawk's posting, and both felt genuine. I sort of like Cerb's wording of the case, but I think that kind of objective reasoning can be very easily faked by logical scum.
I really didn't like how Sakura joined the wagon.
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:36 pm
by Amihan
The problem is I can easily see Mirhawk being genuine here as both town and scum: genuine as town in that his thoughts really formed instinctively the way he's been reasserting, and genuine as scum in that he honestly believes town would have come to the conclusion he did. I don't think he's trying to reframe anything he did if he's scum, just honestly trying to explain the thought process he came up with.
The turn the case is taking, with Cerb's post summarizing it, seems to come down to a question of whether or not Mirhawk followed the optimal logic. I'd argue it is very possible he didn't if his references to the game where a fake miller claim/counterclaim burned him are true, because bad memories or instinctive negative reactions can both easily impair the use of optimal logic.
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:37 pm
by Cerberus v666
I've read the whole thread Mirhawk. Your point about Ami "dodging" is terrible. Her counterclaim was clear, there is no universe in which she could get away with saying "naw guys, you misunderstood me, I NEVER said i was a miller".
↑Cerberus v666 wrote:Axelrod, I think everything through. Too far through, generally speaking. Your point that scum!Mirhawk has little to nothing to gain from reacting this way in this circumstance is valid, but that doesn't change the fact that he did act in a fashion which, contrary to your beliefs, really does not make any sense. If you have ANY doubt about a counterclaim, you don't lynch the fucking original claim. How backwards is that?
How so? I strongly disagree with your statement that you don't lynch the original claimant if you have ANY doubts about the counter. That's kind of case by case, isn't it? There will be plenty of times when I'm not sure who to believe, but I believe one of them needs to get lynched.
That means you have doubts about both. He didn't say that. He specifically had doubts about the counterclaim.
His post #378 is addressing basically this exactly.
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:40 pm
by Sakura Hana
Axel did you come back just to totally ignore my question?
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:43 pm
by Amihan
↑Cerberus v666 wrote:I think everything through. Too far through, generally speaking.
But not everyone does. Which is more or less my point on Mirhawk right now, that the details of the case seem to assume perfect logic.
In short what I'm saying is I'm seeing a scenario that Mirhawk is conveying (somewhat) but that others are ignoring: he had negative personal experience with Millers and instinctively didn't like my claim, and just didn't fully think it through, as town. I think there is a decent chance of that having happened.
His back and forth posts with Spiffeh where it's like they're talking past each other (mostly Spiffeh having to try and get Mirhawk to understand his point of why it looked scummy) seem to lend this credence.
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:44 pm
by Axelrod
↑Sakura Hana wrote:Axel did you come back just to totally ignore my question?
I still have several questions to answer from back in the thread, but I'm talking about the most immediately relevant thing. Which question are you talking about, the one you
just
asked? (#927?)
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:44 pm
by Amihan
↑Cerberus v666 wrote:I've read the whole thread Mirhawk. Your point about Ami "dodging" is terrible. Her counterclaim was clear, there is no universe in which she could get away with saying "naw guys, you misunderstood me, I NEVER said i was a miller".
No, I actually did dodge it, and then disappeared when pressed again. Mirhawk already pointed this out when he returned afterward.
↑Sakura Hana wrote:Axel did you come back just to totally ignore my question?
I still have several questions to answer from back in the thread, but I'm talking about the most immediately relevant thing. Which question are you talking about, the one you
just
asked? (#927?)
Yes
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:47 pm
by Amihan
I don't even know myself if I'm trying to defend Mirhawk, but my main thought right now is that too many people don't like him, and the reasons for that are either flimsy/based on too many assumptions, or attribute guilt to that which simple error can explain just as sufficiently.
I like Skybird for scum. And the suspicion is there, multiple people have expressed this, but the votes aren't. What's up with that?
↑davesaz wrote:Skybird, are you caught up? Any reads?
Yeah, I'm starting to do ISO's now to further my reads but right now here's where I am:
My strongest townread is Tammy. I'm feeling pretty confident she is town. Spiffah is also pretty town.
I'm leaning town on Dramonic. He's playing like he did in the last game I was in with him. I'm also leaning town on you.
I'm not sure about Beeboy. He's making a lot of noise and I don't see his push on FS. But maybe I'm missing something that FS has did that makes him scummy. FS is on my ISO list.
I'm trying to sort Ami right at the moment. I didn't like her statement in 685 because it sounds like she doesn't want to scum hunt.
I have a lot of null reads because they haven't posted or what they posted didn't make a big impression on me.
p-edit: TWL, what am I missing? Ami's post struck me as weird. Why does it not bother you?
Have you ISO'ed anyone yet?
I find your post kind of weird. Mostly due to the fact that the people you comment on are pretty spread out between the various groups of players.
I am commenting on things as I see them. I'm really not quite sure what you are getting at with the spread out comment.
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:00 pm
by Mirhawk
↑Cerberus v666 wrote:I've read the whole thread Mirhawk. Your point about Ami "dodging" is terrible. Her counterclaim was clear, there is no universe in which she could get away with saying "naw guys, you misunderstood me, I NEVER said i was a miller".
If her counterclaim is so fucking clear then at what point did she lie about her role?
She didn't. It never happened.
I'm assuming she was worried that someone here thought that lynch all liars isn't stupid, but the point is it stood out to me.
Whats next? are you going to claim town players can't notice things like that?
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:02 pm
by Mirhawk
↑Amihan wrote:No, I actually did dodge it, and then disappeared when pressed again. Mirhawk already pointed this out when he returned afterward.
THANK YOU.
God this makes me feel so much better.
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:06 pm
by Mirhawk
↑Skybird wrote:I am commenting on things as I see them. I'm really not quite sure what you are getting at with the spread out comment.
In my head I have the town separated into several groups based on who they talk with the most as well as which wagon they're on.
The people in your list aren't ones I associate with each other.
↑Axelrod wrote:Sakura it's possible there's a language or cultural thing going on there but the whole exchange with him was just weird. The way he jumped on whether or not my random vote was serious did not make any sense at all.
Only scum wouldn't buddy up with me because I always hit scum when I wagon someone.
Seniors know this and should have accepted my hand in friendship but they don't want to be forced to bus.
↑Axelrod wrote:Seniors is, indeed, worthy of a vote. But more right than Wrong?
Where in this sequence of posts am i supposed to take your statement as a joke?
Ok, so, first, most of the posts in that sequence you are quoting are not even mine, so I'm not sure what they have to do with how serious I was being. But second, the way I read those posts, at least at the time, was that the people making them - Beeboy, Dramonic - were also basically joking around about FS. The way Beeboy said "Are you implying the Seniors wagon isn't serious?" I did not, in fact, take seriously. It looking like him playing around to me. And Dramonic saying "Seniors is policy tho" is also, basically a joke. And even when Beeboy follows it up with his "meta" argument as to why FS not buddying up makes him scum, I am still not taking that as a serious vote, and wouldn't think most people would. Come on, "Only scum wouldn't buddy up with me because I always hit scum when I wagon someone," can't be anything but a joke. How are you not getting that?
I was also attempting to be humorous, because FS is a Hydra, and I was already voting a Hydra because of my futile quest to smite down evil Hydras. Hence my post where I remark that Seniors would be a good vote too (because Hydra), and I made a pun "more right then Wrong?" I would have thought the pun would have tipped you off even if you didn't get the rest of the context. This is all happening in still the RVS stages you know.
That's how you are supposed to "get" that I was joking around.
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:13 pm
by beeboy
Until the whole "if you guys let Beeboy lynch me" thing along with the bad catch up posts I wasn't actually 100% committed to the wagon and could have easily been swayed.
Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2016 1:13 pm
by beeboy
But if you don't pretend you are 100% serious no one will sheep you.
↑Cerberus v666 wrote:I've read the whole thread Mirhawk. Your point about Ami "dodging" is terrible. Her counterclaim was clear, there is no universe in which she could get away with saying "naw guys, you misunderstood me, I NEVER said i was a miller".
If her counterclaim is so fucking clear then at what point did she lie about her role?
She didn't. It never happened.
I'm assuming she was worried that someone here thought that lynch all liars isn't stupid, but the point is it stood out to me.
Whats next? are you going to claim town players can't notice things like that?
???? When did I say she lied about her role?
Ami(and mir): whether or not you were dodging is irrelevant. The point of the dodging accusation was that it somehow made Mirhawk think that you were deliberately trying to create a situation where you could claim that you hadn't ever claimed miller, when in fact you had clearly claimed miller. You didn't even argue that you didn't claim miller, you just said it was a gambit you tried.
I think this is a dumb semantic argument now. Your arguments are sophistry and I'm not going to waste my time on them.
I maintain that your behavior was scummy, Mirhawk.
↑Skybird wrote:I am commenting on things as I see them. I'm really not quite sure what you are getting at with the spread out comment.
In my head I have the town separated into several groups based on who they talk with the most as well as which wagon they're on.
The people in your list aren't ones I associate with each other.
I comment on what I see and in some instances who I know. For example, Tammy. I have played with her a few times and I feel this is her town game. Same with Spiffeh. I have also played with SirCakez before and I scum read him for his posting and he wasn't scum. I am being cautious about sorting him because I don't want to make that mistake again. I don't have an organized way I go through the player list and comment on people.
Why do you feel some people are associated together?
I am being cautious about sorting him because I don't want to make that mistake again. I don't have an organized way I go through the player list and comment on people.