Titus v. Alisae (endgame)

[Reasonably Rational]

That last post reads way harsher than I meant it, SS. Love ya and appreciate ya. If I thought the setup had unfairly cost us, I would say so.
This is more an observation of a possible defect. Having the possibility to have several mech town clears because of using an action is way too swingy. Add in that this setup also featured masons, an unsilenceable IC, and two town killing powers, one of which is unblockable. That’s a tough road to hoe even if the scum team are all active and willing to work on the same page, and we didn’t have anything resembling that.

~D

[Krazy]

Maki and Kaito, Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades (Rolecop, Alien, Neighbouriser), lynched day one.
Bitmap, Mafia Jack-of-All-Trades (Rolecop, Alien, Neighbouriser), lynched day two.
Reasonably Rational (hydra of Cerberus v666 and Drixx), Mafia 1-Shot Bulletproof Ascetic Universal Backup turned Jack-of-All-Trades (Rolecop, Alien, Neighbouriser), lynched day six.
AaronFrost, Mafia Ninja, lynched day four.

Pine, Town Ascetic Enabler Ninja Vanilla Cop, survived.
Hectic, Town Jack-of-All-Trades (Rolecop, Tracker, Neighbouriser), survived.
Chemist1422, Town Jack-of-All-Trades (Rolecop, Voyeur, Neighbouriser), lynched day three.
Espeonage, Town Ascetic Compulsive Disloyal Friendly Neighbor, survived.
Ankamius, Town Jack-of-All-Trades (Rolecop, Watcher, Neighbouriser), survived.
Spiffeh, Town Mason, killed night one.
gobbledygook, Town Mason, killed night five.
Amrun, Town Ascetic Compulsive Complex Friendly Neighbour, killed night three.
TrueSoulEnergy, Town Vengeful, lynched day five.

insomnia rep. Frozen Angel, Vanilla Townie, killed night two.
Flavor Leaf, Vanilla Townie, survived.
OkaPoka, Vanilla Townie, survived.
Sherlock and Watson (hydra of PenguinPower & Krazy), Vanilla Townie, survived.

OTHER SETUP FACTORS
Novice Strongman vig from town stump
Scum stump knows about town's disloyal friendly neighbor

This doesn't look unplayable since scum have a lot of tricks and the ninja.

4 vts is a good base

2 mech town (masons) confirmed to the town stump is strong, but no protectives and they were hunted pretty effectively by Alisae

The vengeful due to normal rules would be IC'd by a rolecop, of which the town had three shots
Amrun has a high chance of landing a FN send on town early if scum are not using the jails early

So from design POV 4 slots are pretty strongly town

Partly here town did misplay a bit (no rolecops on TSE)
Also scum got very unlucky with some night actions (neither friendly neighbor ever claimed visits to scum)

Town's watcher and tracker in theory can maybe confirm? a town action but 'can't' catch the scum kill due to ninja + scum UB

So main problems for scum here were:
-Espeonage seemed very town off dayplay early game, so after Amrun died the ascetic claim became more of an issue for RR
-The heavy swing against scum early game ended up surprisingly turning rolecop/vanilla cop actions into stronger invests than they were designed as

So I think the comment about setup is more to watch for 'snowball' effects. The setup isn't imbalanced on paper; it's very consistent with the design feel "Moriarty" has been going for. That feel works, which is one reason I think there was more expectation that the scum ascetic shouldn't claim since the "hints" power of the design is so strong.

Ultimately there's no way to argue scum didn't have tools for counter-play. Most of town's strongest power was negated (watcher, tracker, disloyal FN) by the setup, but the snowball effect of the lynches + vanilla cop was stronger than expected. But this is something that can happen in any large theme game and it's very hard to anticipate.

Pine's role is interesting as a kind of "rolecop miller" but he played it very much like miller and I think one issue is that lately towns tend to treat millers like ICs.

Ultimately that we ended up lynching the vengeful despite having 3 rolecops is... interesting from a mechanical POV. Strictly speaking TSE's lynch was the one that *should* have been avoidable this game but town ended up not playing it that way and instead of being 'punished' for it was ironically rewarded since the rolecop on Oka actually worked to IC him due to snowball effect.

For the record, even if this is a 'hard' game for scum, I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as Jazz Mafia was, by comparison. Scum had significantly more power and counterplay here vs. what feels like softly 'less' town power maybe? That's my immediate guttake anyway

[Krazy]

Actually I guess there's the question of the power of the three rolecops/vanilla cop on Aaron when Aaron is probably 'inclined' to claim Vanilla to fit into the VT pool but that's something that can come down to order in massclaim and other soft factors, not sure if "town ninja" is a claim that doesn't get lynched here so he probably can't claim it directly

[gobbledygook]

Wow. I was going to meme further on the scum team, but the discord is so sad to read

[OkaPoka]

Basically setup swingy but also with the constraints given you cant make a balanced and unswingy setup

[gobbledygook]

I don't know what you want the mods to do when Ali requests super op roles. Like town has to be super mega op to counter that. It also just hurt the scum that this town composition strangely had enough "in fighters" willing to compromise and compromised correctly.

[gobbledygook]

I will say that I don't think I've seen bullying to that extent (in the scum discord) since I was in middle school

rip in peace bitmap

[gobbledygook]

GG, now it’s safe to assume you used my death as a reason to fake derp yourself right?

“i though he died cuz he looked like a mason”

---

Yes.
Titus and I were able to hide the masonry pretty well after Spiffeh died N1. Hi5, Titus!

[Espeonage]

I'd a scum stump just throwing it out there. Then y'all can flame me for talking shit and getting hit.

[Reasonably Rational]

Just a note: it's the *number* of effects that feels off. Just the vanilla cop, or the complex friendly neighbor, would work, but the pair feels oppressive.

Also, it wasn't our actions that made it probable that scum had no goons; it was the fact that scum got to choose their roles.

Our action made it *certain* that the last scum was not VT, but there was a strong pull towards assuming vanilla=town from D2.

-Cerb

[Reasonably Rational]

I will say that I don't think I've seen bullying to that extent (in the scum discord) since I was in middle school

rip in peace bitmap

I’m not sure what in particular bothered you, but I don’t recall much being that bad. The worst comments from me, for example, don’t even rise to the level of shit that gets said in main game threads all the time on site. I tend to be very blunt in scum chats.

Of course, I’m not even sure you’re swinging at me with the comment so... but if it wasn’t me I don’t recall anything anyone else said that would have bothered me either.

~D

[Krazy]

Just a note: it's the *number* of effects that feels off. Just the vanilla cop, or the complex friendly neighbor, would work, but the pair feels oppressive.

Also, it wasn't our actions that made it probable that scum had no goons; it was the fact that scum got to choose their roles.

Our action made it *certain* that the last scum was not VT, but there was a strong pull towards assuming vanilla=town from D2.

-Cerb

If disliking the stump's picks for scum roles creates a bad gamefeel for scum that might be a thought that maybe scum stump should not be designing scum rolecards in future stump v stump games.

I think that's a valid thought

[Alisae]

I can get pretty toxic in the scum PT sometimes.

[Titus]

If disliking the stump's picks for scum roles creates a bad gamefeel for scum that might be a thought that maybe scum stump should not be designing scum rolecards in future stump v stump games.

I think that's a valid thought

I think that the scum treestump should pick eir roles with their team but give them 48 hours max. The team won't get a bad feel then.

[Espeonage]

I really want to have a go at this, ngl.

[OkaPoka]

but thats 48 more hours of waiting for thread unlock ;-;

[Alisae]

I had my fill of treestump games after AvP, or atleast being the treestump.
tbh I really didn't want to do this challenge but I didn't want to pussy out of a duel.

[Titus]

but thats 48 more hours of waiting for thread unlock ;-;

You'd be surprised at what things can be done simultaneously. Both the scum draft and mason drafts happened at the same time. Ali's just had to finish before my names could resolve.

[Titus]

If the mods have a moderate power level idea, they can start designing and tinker around the finished product.

[Titus]

If Ali had RR's brain in role design/rule design, then e'd be in a better spot imo.

[Titus]

I'm glad no one was legit pissed I didn't pick them. I really worried that people would react like RR did.

That's a big reason I WOTCed some people. The drama would be bad.

[Something_Smart]

I think that the scum treestump should pick eir roles with their team but give them 48 hours max. The team won't get a bad feel then.

Then we have to design the entire setup after the game fills...

[Alisae]

SS u should rotate ur azelf so that it faces the post

[OkaPoka]

i mean it was pretty doomed for scum from basically d2

i think every townie had at least two of <bitmap,af,rr> in their PoE even before mechanics kicked in

there isn't much alisae could've done other than hope town just implodes on itself and try and pick up the pieces

[Espeonage]

I wanna fight the worst. Ducks v Not Ducks. I ain't afraid.