Mini 1353 - Dr. Who Mafia - The End of Time (Game Over)

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote Count 5.2 - As of post 975

Zang (1) - triangle123
triangle123 (1) - Zang

Not Voting (3) - Greenknight, T-Bone, CryMeARiver

The Current deadline is September 2, 2012 at 10:00am EDT. Countdown is (expired on 2012-09-02 10:00:00).

With 5 active votes - 3 are required to lynch.

Activity Check - All currently good.

Mod Notes - Zang is V/LA til Friday August 31.

[Zang]

Zang: I read "I don't see any town motivation in his posts" as equivalent to "these posts are scummy". The point is your comments on Acos and Tierce on day 1 fit the pattern of distancing scum because you're expressing suspicion but reluctant to actually commit to a scumread or push the wagon.

It's completely different. I saw little motivation in his posts at all. And I did vote for both of them.

You didn't straight out call her town but you repeatedly said that you don't find anything scummy about her and asked for a case on her, and coupled with your flip-floppy posts about her, it's scummy.

That is different though then going from calling her town to calling her scum which you accused me of. I don't even think that I said that I didn't find anything scummy about her.

I really expected to see more detailed cases posted by now on their parts though

I'm going to try and make one on friday or saturday when I have more time.

[triangle123]

You went from not finding her scummy to finding her a little scummy while not really finding her scummy to finally voting for her. And you made a couple statements like this:

Why is Tierce scum? I don't like his vote on jason but besides that I haven't really noticed anything scummy about him.

[T-Bone]

Can you show that process of his, Triangle?

[triangle123]

Sure.

First he answered some questions from Tierce without really commenting on her, and then he wrote:

Why is Tierce scum? I don't like his vote on jason but besides that I haven't really noticed anything scummy about him.

So, clearly at that point he didn't find her scummy. He then questions a post Tierce made, without comment on her alignment. The questioning continues and he writes:

I also might be willing vote for Tierce but I don't exactly know what the case on him is.

This indicates that he kind of finds her scummy but is still waffling and saying that he doesn't really see the case. Through all this, he continues questioning Tierce over her FoS on me, but still without calling her scum, and then he writes this again:

Can somebody please tell me what the case against Tierce is?

Then he writes this waffly post:

I'll probably vote for Tierce but I am trying to delay my vote until somebody gives me a case on him. I don't really see any town motivation in his posts and I don't like his interaction with triangle but that doesn't make him scum. I also don't like how he says that he will refuse to do a fullclaim but I do think that is scummy.

At this point he gets some pressure for not voting her, and so finally he writes:

Vote: Tierce

It's clear that neither GreyICE or anybody else is going to explain their case to me.

All in all, he was reluctant to vote for her and reluctant to give a read, and was sort of insinuating scumminess while not really doing so and continually asking for a case on her.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Activity Check - all are currently good.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Prodding Greenknight and CryMeARiver. Frankly as a Mod I'm pretty disappointed I have more posts on this page than anyone else ... pick up the activity people!

[greenknight]

Prod dodge, I feel completely justified waiting for zang and CMAR to answer here

[CryMeARiver]

Alright, after a few hours, I have come to a decision GK.

[Zang]

This indicates that he kind of finds her scummy but is still waffling and saying that he doesn't really see the case. Through all this, he continues questioning Tierce over her FoS on me, but still without calling her scum, and then he writes this again:

1. I have no idea of how that is waffling.
2. Asking for the case says absolutely nothing about my thought on her alignment.
3. It is true that I never did call her scum but that is because I was not sure if she was scum or not which should be obvious by the fact that I didn't vote her yet. However, I think it was clear from my questions that I was suspicious of her.

At this point he gets some pressure for not voting her, and so finally he writes:

1. I wasn't getting pressure from it before? Nothing really changed about who was pressuring me between those two posts.
2. I already stated that I would vote for her before deadline so what does pressure even have to do with it?

Pressure really had nothing to do with it. It just became clear to me that nobody was going to post the case and because deadline was coming soon, I decided not to delay my vote any longer.

[CryMeARiver]

Today's play:

Triangle's mini-case on Zang really is pretty good. However, in a 5way situation with 1 scum, think about how a scum has to play it. Scum needs a mislynch here. Zang's vote on triangle is just process of elimination. He isn't aggressive here at all. In fact, he is pretty much only defending himself from triangle's rather aggressive case on him. T-Bone is too laid back, so I won't rule him out, but between triangle and Zang today, triangle's play fits the scum template for the situation moreso than Zang's in my opinion.

Moving on...

So looking more into triangle I find things that strike me. First of all, when I ran thru all of the votecounts of the game, I found one thing troubling. At one point our three scumspects here were the only ones voting Acos. So it definitely doesn't hurt to go back and look at their reasonings behind voting him to try and deduce which one was bussing. T-Bone gets a pass as he had tunneled Acos the whole game with a rather large case and Acos had fought back on T-Bone which could be a big bussing scheme, but we'll sort that out tomorrow if there is a tomorrow.

Triangle's vote on Acos:

Surprise surprise, Acomist has the worst vote on the wagon

What about it makes you think it was the worst vote?

He 'suspected' GK and Jason Day 1. Though I don't see where he backed these claims up ever.

I actually find it rather weird that T-Bone makes a claim like this because later on in his same post, he appears to be cognizant of the fact that Acosmist backed up his reads during his interactions with me, seeing as he discussed this.

Acosmist, apart from T-Bone, who do you think is scum? I don't like the way Acos doesn't appear to really be actively scum-hunting at this point and is instead poking his attacker. It wouldn't be necessarily scummy if he had described other reasons for finding T-Bone scum, but unless I missed something, all his attacks on T-Bone center around the attacks made on him. Acosmist's case on him feels more like something defensive rather than a genuine attempt at scum-hunting, and that's what strikes me as scummy.

Vote: Acosmist

As for Starbuck's claim, I do agree that the timing of it feels off and it's scummy that she would be so convinced that Kortul must have hid behind her. That said, I just don't see her Tierce-vote in Day 1 as a bus because at the time, there wasn't much of a Tierce wagon to speak of. It doesn't make sense that she would try to sacrifice a competent buddy like that. For now, she remains a town read of mine.

Zang's:

Vote: Acosmist

I think he is scum. Throughout most of the game he has been lurking and I agree that his play during day 2 is bad. While I agree that he doesn't need much reasoning to vote the very obvious SK, there were other things that he could have commented on but completely ignored such as Starbuck's claim.

I also think that Starbuck might be scum. I can see how a commuter could mess up a hider but I don't understand why she would assume that both the scum and the hider targeted her as town, especially wihtout reading the thread. As scum though, I can see her panicking and coming up with a fakeclaim in order to explain why the hider died. However, I don't want to vote solely based on a claim.

Triangle actually bothered to do a role analysis of the serial killer's claim, complete with bells and whistles, to explain why he was voting for... someone a hider died from hiding behind. Hello trying to hard. Throw in the defense of Tierce (while exclaiming she was a null read, and backing up her 'softclaim power role' stuff) and my god why wouldn't you kill him?

Why would scum do this though? I think it is much more likely for town to do this. Triangle came in after he was already lynched and gave his opinion on his claim. If anything, I would call that pro-town. I think it would be much more likely for scum to just sit back and wait until night started. It was also only two sentences, I would hardely call that a "role analysis complete with bells and whistles".

I've found myself agreeing with you far too much this game which has kind of scared me but not made me think you're town for some odd reason. Triangle has shown poor play, as Grey has pointed out, however based on Tierce I have found her to be reluctantly town.

A person who you think is reluctantly town and somebody who agrees with you, I fail to see why this is bad company.

Triangle sounds like the one bussing. The way he feels the need to explicitly say "and that's why I think he's scummy" and "unless I missed something" doesn't strike me as confident as Zang saying "this guy is scum and also Starbuck might be scum for these reasons:".

Also, Triangle's switch to the jason wagon was awful:

Argh. I don't like a Jason lynch nor a Tierce lynch. I've had a town read on Jason this whole day, and though I have a basically null read on Tierce because I still wanted to hear more from her about her thoughts on players other than Jason, I'm definitely not up for lynching a claimed power role. But I know it's too late for a GK or T-Bone lynch to go through, so:

Unvote
Vote: Jason

It's preferable to a no-lynch. Jason is now at L-1.

Again, the same thing happens as the Acos wagon above. The way he treats Tierce seems like scumbuddies to me, even if he has a valid reason with the claimed power role.

I don't know if I've done the thoughts in my mind as I read triangle's posts justice with my explanations, but I think this guy is the remaining scum. And if he is not, I wouldn't want him to be there tomorrow when I have to shoot.

Vote: Triangle

Scum is going to no kill tonight anyway.

[triangle123]

1. I have no idea of how that is waffling.
2. Asking for the case says absolutely nothing about my thought on her alignment.
3. It is true that I never did call her scum but that is because I was not sure if she was scum or not which should be obvious by the fact that I didn't vote her yet. However, I think it was clear from my questions that I was suspicious of her.

1. You were basically saying "I might vote for her but then again I still don't really understand why people find her scummy".
2. So you would have a scum read on someone that you don't have your own case on nor know anyone else's case on her?
3. I think it was clear that you were waffling.

And no pressure? Pressure clearly had something to do with it. Even when you voted for her, you made a somewhat irritated comment that "It's clear no one's going to explain their case on her". If you had no case on her, and you didn't know anyone else's case on her, then why did you vote for her?

Triangle's mini-case on Zang really is pretty good. However, in a 5way situation with 1 scum, think about how a scum has to play it. Scum needs a mislynch here. Zang's vote on triangle is just process of elimination. He isn't aggressive here at all. In fact, he is pretty much only defending himself from triangle's rather aggressive case on him. T-Bone is too laid back, so I won't rule him out, but between triangle and Zang today, triangle's play fits the scum template for the situation moreso than Zang's in my opinion.

Don't you think a townie and a scum player would have equal motivation to get someone lynched? Don't you think both a town and a scum player could also have resigned play? I actually can't tell if Zang is being resigned townie or resigned scum from his play today alone; its his actions from previous days that are scummy to me.

Triangle sounds like the one bussing. The way he feels the need to explicitly say "and that's why I think he's scummy" and "unless I missed something" doesn't strike me as confident as Zang saying "this guy is scum and also Starbuck might be scum for these reasons:".

And can you prove that the way I stated my case there is any differently from the way I stated cases on people who turned out to be town? In other words, do you have any proof whatsoever that that isn't how I normally state cases? For example, is this different from how I wrote my case on Greenknight Day 1, who is now essentially confirmed town?

Also, Triangle's switch to the jason wagon was awful:

I've explained this so many times I can't even. Let me know what you find lacking from my previous explanations and I'll clarify.

[CryMeARiver]

Very, very defensive reaction. Overly so.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote Count 5.3 - As of post 988

Zang (1) - triangle123
triangle123 (2) - Zang, CryMeARiver

Not Voting (2) - Greenknight, T-Bone

The Current deadline is September 2, 2012 at 10:00am EDT. Countdown is (expired on 2012-09-02 10:00:00).

With 5 active votes - 3 are required to lynch.

Activity Check - T-Bone has been prodded.

Mod Notes - Zang is V/LA til Friday August 31.

[triangle123]

Very, very defensive reaction. Overly so.

You want to answer my questions or...? I think I made some valid points.

[T-Bone]

Prod received. Just ended my long shift, gonna post and vote soon.

[T-Bone]

Vote: Zang

Here's my thought process, stop me if you don't understand. I'm looking at Triangle/Zang head-to-head. For CMAR, either he's scum and this day doesn't matter, or he's Vengeful and gets the final say tomorrow anyway. So, despite his push this page on Triangle, I'm excluding it.

Triangle/Zang vs. Tierce. Both player engage Tierce early, (by early I mean when Tierce started posting with frequency). Triangle opens with a meta-read and Zang just asks a question. To me this says a little bit. Triangle started calling her a weak townread, explaining some things.Zang starts soft, but does go into more of an attack on her as posting continues. One of my biggest problems with Zang is #509 where he says "I'll probably vote for Tierce but but I'm trying to delay my vote until someone makes a case for it". That to me sounds like Zang wants to take no responsibility for his vote on her. Since Jason and GK were still viable counterwagons at the time, this is the type of reasoning that would allow someone to "bus" without actually bussing. I think Triangle pointed some of this out a few posts above me, so I'm not going to repeat his points, but they are points I agree with. From a scum perspective, it looks like he wanted credit for finding her scummy without doing anything about it. Triangle states he doesn't like a Tierce lynch and votes Jason. I think a lot of people would find that scummy, and I agree with that assessment. The redeeming thing about this, I think it's reasonable to not lynch someone who claims a PR on Day 1, so I don't find fault there. We are comparing "If Zang is scum" to "If Triangle is scum", I find how Zang approached the situation a little more scummy.

vs. Iecey - Mafia want to lynch the SK just as much as town do, so like Acosmist, voting the SK doesn't preclude you from being scum. Triangle like myself missed the day phase completely. What I don't like is Triangle took a minimalistic approach, but it is what it is. The lynch already happened. Zang was a little more invovled, but just to echo the thoughts of his contemporaries.

vs. Acosmist - This is the hard part. They were the 2nd and 3rd vote on the Acosmist vote, respectively, back to back, fairly early into the day phase. So whoever is scum decided Acosmist was going down in flames and went right for this with me.

vs. Each other - Triangle started yesterday on Zang, and he's right, Zang didn't have any heat on him. Trianglescum didn't have to put himself out there yesterday when Starbuck was on the hotseat. With I believe Grey, GK, both calling him town, I think that's a little risky. while on the otherhand Zangscum could play it safe and go with the Starbuck vote. Eitherway, one scumplayer draws attention to an under the radar townie or one scumplayer plays it safe and sheeps the town.

So really my vote boils down to how both players handled Tierce, I think Zang handled it in a scummier way. I don't want to say that since then they've played exactly the same game, but I guess that's kinda what I've said anyway.

I believe my vote leaves GK on the button with both at L-1

[MagnaofIllusion]

Greenknight has been prodded.
Zang has been pre-prodded. If he posts within 5 hours of this post (by 10pm EDT tonight) his prod will be rescinded.

Mod Note - LA over the holiday weekend as always. I will be around to manage deadline and Night but flavor may be lacking until next week.

[greenknight]

This is a tough one. I agree triangle's response is defensive but this is a spot where it makes sense for town to be defensive as she has no need to attack CMAR. Acos day 3 wagon is hard to tell anyone apart on and whoever is scum did a good job blending in there. So for me it's down to the tierce interactions on day 1 and I think zang's are worse in both directions.

Vote: Zang

[MagnaofIllusion]

Final Vote Count of Day 5 - Lynch occurred at post 993

Zang (LYNCH) - triangle123, T-Bone, Greenknight
triangle123 (2) - Zang, CryMeARiver

With 5 active votes - 3 are required to lynch.

Activity Check - All currently good

Also a lynch has occurred. Mod scene incoming ….

[MagnaofIllusion]

Is This What We’ve Come To?

The mood is somber. With so few of you left there is a dread sense that perhaps nothing is ever going to be settled. And that dark cloud is definitely personified by Zang. He mopes about avoiding any chores or helping to find the monster still hiding in your midst. Occasionally you catch him mumbling to himself about his dear Rose and Mickey being taken from him or about that damn Doctor who ruined his life.

Eventually triangle123 can’t take it anymore and begins calling Zang the monster. This for once gets Zang’s attention and he returns the favor, pointing an accusing finger at triangle123. Eventually everyone but Greenknight chooses sides and the decision is left in his hands. He unlocks the weapons cabinet, takes out a Gravity Inversion Ray and shoots Zang. A wave a gravimetric distortion ripples through his body and he slumps over, clearly dead.

Unfortunately Zang was indeed just a mother who was barely holding on to his sanity in the face of the horrible situation.

Zang – Jackie Tyler, Vanilla Town was lynched Day 5.

It is now Night 5. All actions are due by September 2, 2012 at 10:00pm EDT, in (expired on 2012-09-02 22:00:00). Night will end as soon as possible after this time.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Keep Watching the Skies …

With so few left it doesn’t take long to notice that CryMeARiver is late to rise this morning. After all he was always one of the first to get up. And geneally pretty cheerful despite the nastiness you have all been caught up in. I guess a long life that has been filled with its share of strife gives one perspective.

You find CryMeARiver’s room to be very tidy. He clothes are neatly folded in military fashion in his draws. The only item of note is a telescope that sits beside and points out a window to the dark void beyond.

CryMeARiver lies on his bed, face-up. He doesn’t have a mark on him yet he’s clearly passed. Probably his heart finally gave up the fight when faced with the monster killing you off. An old military service revolver lies on the bed next to his hand. He didn’t even get a chance to fire off his one bullet.

CryMeARiver - Wilfred Mott, Vengeful Town, was killed Night 5.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Vote Count 6.0- As of post 997

Not Voting (3) - Greenknight, T-Bone, triangle123

The Current deadline is September 14, 2012 at 10:00am EDT. Countdown is (expired on 2012-09-14 10:00:00).

With 3 active votes - 2 are required to lynch.

Activity Check - All currently good.

[T-Bone]

GK, why didn't you protect CMAR?

[greenknight]

GK, why didn't you protect CMAR?

... I did.

Are you the scum role blocker?