Xenoblade Mafia (Game Over)

[²]

F, same question to you as I asked buldey. Are you reading the mollie head as town?

Pretty sure I already answered this. Yes.

[Ghostlin]

Oh. Saying I'm taking an MS break means I'm hopping off Mafiascum.

[Ghostlin]

Your vote should always be founded on your own logic, if your own logic agrees with someone elses, is their logic makes you change yours, fine. But sheeping as pure sheeping IMO has always been and will always be wrong.

Yes, but sheeping isn't necessary scummy and this entire post says nothing. Working on reading further.

[Varsoon]

Ghostlin, it's interesting that you include me in your scum-list based off of things 500 posts ago, rather than what is currently happening.
Regardless, I find it doubly neat that you're supporting the TD wagon and my own.
Put a vote somewhere.
You should probably articulate -why-.
Also, could you explain why you're supporting some of the easiest wagons at this point? Seems like you're scum trying to push them through, rather than town that's actually convinced of scum being there.

Tl;dr- I'm not convinced. Slam a vote and make an argument.

[²]

@2: Thanks for the list. Could you articulate why you think these more active players are town and these less active ones are scum?

With the exception of BRO, I have a lot of experiential meta to go on. With BRO, we just finished playing a newbie game together so his town game is quite fresh in my mind. I also have a lot of experiential meta with Svenskt, but I've tended to null/slightly town read him early on. This game's not really different in that respect. The first game I played with him, he was scum, so I think I have a scum baseline to work from.

TD and TMP both clanged pretty hard early on. I like Nacho's narrative about TD's posts and that's swayed me townward. I don't think buldermar and I could reach an agreement on lynching him given the current game landscape. With AJ, for now I'm following Nacho. I have him down for a meta dive when I have time.

[GuyInFreezer]

Here's the little rule.
I don't care if you answered it previously. When I ask you stuff, answer them again.

Let's start with these posts.

Sven, do you think there's scum pushing on your wagon?
If so, who?

Why did you ask this question to sven? It's a good discussion starter, but you never followed up on this.

@Sven:
Ah, who do you think is town, so far?

@GIF:
I could see where he would understand miller-tracker as two roles.
253 is too compelling, though.

ok.

I really like Sven's claim more and more now. It feels like a litmus test for town/scum.

Elaborate on this.

[Ghostlin]

Ghostlin, it's interesting that you include me in your scum-list based off of things 500 posts ago, rather than what is currently happening.
Regardless, I find it doubly neat that you're supporting the TD wagon and my own.
Put a vote somewhere.
You should probably articulate -why-.
Also, could you explain why you're supporting some of the easiest wagons at this point? Seems like you're scum trying to push them through, rather than town that's actually convinced of scum being there.

Tl;dr- I'm not convinced. Slam a vote and make an argument.

You didn't read my last post, did you. I've already placed a vote. So this entire post is not paying attention and completely fake.

[Ghostlin]

Meaning the post before you've raged and went "OH MY GOD GHOST IS SCUM FOR NOT LAYING DOWN A VOTE AND A POSITION."

[²]

First of all, your read was oriented completely around TD-me-mollie-orc, things like that. You ignored the Varsoon situation completely, and you found nothing to comment on from anyone else. What do you think of everyone else?

I was mostly concerned with how mollie didn't have any clear read on our slot. First she simultanously read me as town and f as scum. Then she simultanously read me as town and scum. Usually she has a clear read, even when she's wrong.

Why did this concern you? Was there a game you played with mollie-scum where she didn't have a clear read on you?

If you didn't already, please clarify.

- b

I asked you what you thought of her, saw nothing. What do you think of her and her specifically?

Which I did. She told me that the two of you had a run in, that Nacho decided we're scum and that orc wants us to vote varsoom, who went on a wall-posting spree overnight with utterly bizarre stuff. I then told her I'd be reading and she told me she'd not be posting for a while.

And you not commenting on Varsoon at all but commenting on us, commenting on me. That was suspicious. It shows you're more concerned about fixing your rep than looking for the scum you're supposed to be finding.

I'll almost guarantee that he will scum read me even if the two of you are town - that's sort of what he does.

This seemed strange, considering your immediate townread on Majiffy after. I felt like you were preemptively defending against the Majiffy scumread, especially since I don't remember him ever calling you scum except when he was scum and being an idiot.

What can I do to help you stop being an idiot?

You usually know when I'm empty shit-talking.
You know that I'm not sure of a scumread on you two or I wouldn't be afraid to tunnel the shit out of you.

Nacho, how the fuck can you be town reading this?

This question is very, very late. You never followed up when you mixed him and Cabd up before.

What independent thought?

Read his most recent post that's not "town rage".

You don't really mind votes on him? How is that compatible with town reading him? Why don't you just explicitly admit that you're wrong with your read on him?

My townread on him until recently had to make a lot of inferences. Since he's not as bleedingly town as others, I would rather people like orc put on TD votes instead of Varsoon votes, for example.

I thought I already explained why I mixed up the two at the time. What is it that you think the problem is exactly?

Lack of followup. You were like "whoops, wrong one". And the fact that you didn't notice you mixed them up until I pointed out you did showed me that you sure as hell didn't read my reasoning for him being town. But mostly, it was the lack of followup.

What the fuck? No I fucking wasn't. I identified you on my own, which I'm positive she can confirm.

Also fuck you for trying to discredit me in this manner.

Sorry, I fucked up. But did you really think that I was trying to discredit your town game?

1) I read it rather selectively. I don't have much time due to an exam so I skipped a lot of the longer posts. For instance, I didn't read the content of the long posts Varsoon and Majiffy made. I just noticed what kind of reads they had and made my read based on that. Varsoon voted someone who was unlikely to get lynched (I don't even remember who) after an asburdly long entrance post, so I asserted that he is probably town based on that. Majiffy is active and seems to care, so he's town. I still think TD is scum. I also don't like Cabd. I havn't found a reason to think orc or you are scum, so I'm just going to trust f's town read on the two of you. I'm not certain that Sven is town, but lynching him today is dumb. I have no idea how to read Rach - I've reached the conclusion that her posts just always seem anti-town to me regardless of her alignment. I want to have a look at the Sven wagon as I've already mentioned, but havn't had time yet. I havn't really read the rest of the players posts careful enough to make any read.

2) You're essentially pointing it out yourself. Usually she does have a clear read on me (it being town or scum), even if that read is wrong. I felt like she didn't have any clear read on first our slot and then me this game, which is what I would expect from scum-mollie. As it turns out, I was probably wrong, because I don't see Majiffy making all these posts as scum.

3) See above.

4) I can see why you're thinking this, but turn the table for a moment. What would your reaction be if I ignored all of your questions and instead continued with finding scum? I'm pretty sure you'd assert that I would be trying to direct attention away from me. I trust that f and I will be able to find something if you'll just calm yourself and at least entertain the possibility that you're wrong with your current read.

5) He has called me scum both as scum and town and more so than any other player I can think of - and I don't think it's a close call. I'm rather surprised that he's not doing it this game, but that's unrelated to me read on him. He's town because he's not faking reads, he's dedicating time, he seems to care and his reads are very much in accordance with mine.

6) Obviously. If I thought you were locked into a scum read I wouldn't be spending time responding to your posts and attempt to meet your wishes.

7) I'm not sure what exactly you mean by that being very very late? Anyway, I didn't want to figure out exactly what I misunderstood, but I think I swapped TD and Cabd and one point, which caused the confusion. If you absolutely insist, I'll try to find it for you, but I do think it's a waste of time.

8) His most recent post that wasn't "town rage" happened subsequent to the post in which you claimed that he possessed "independent thought".

9) Alright, but I thought you had him as "obv town". Again, I may be thinking that you said something about TP which was really about Cabd, and vice versa.

10) Alright, I can see that this is really bothering you. Here is how I remember it, but I might mix up details because I really didn't consider it that important. I was talking to f about reads on gchat. I read both of TP and Cabd as scum. I read a post in which you said one or both of them was obv town and I asked you about one of them. When I asked you about your reasoning for thinking that person was town, I thought we were talking about the other person, so when I went to ISO the person I was actually ISO'ing the other person. This should all be confirmable if you reread. It's better that you do it yourself because a) I don't want to and b) if I'm doing it, you're just going to think I selectively quote certain posts or something similar.

11) It's np. No, I don't think you'd do that even if you were scum. I was just annoyed with you and I have a big ego.

- b

[Ghostlin]

And where did I say I supported any of the early wagons? I don't think I've claimed anywhere that Sven was scum, for example...you've actually not been reading my notes, have you?

[²]

I also don't understand why ffery stopped posting. Taking a step back? Cool. Completely vanishing before she gives out her complete read set? Bad.

I'm pretty sure she wanted to talk to me on gchat after I had read the thread prior to posting reads.

- b

[²]

Last one, slight scum-lean.
Top three, that was because you guys brought up an outside game and talked shit about it, i'd be pissed too.

This does look like a town response to that question, given the situation.

- b

[Mac]

Town: orcinus, nacho, B&B, BRO

Leaning town:
svenskt (for today - pretty sure this is my view only , not buldermar's)
Andreius
GiF (that was a weird thing about the chat game, though)
Cabd (in part based on nacho and to a lesser extent Rach)

Null/Town:
Rach (always and forever I swear)
Varsoon
Ghostlin (this read could slide)
Mac

Leaning Scum:
TD (buldermar's read mostly)
TMTwhatev
Maybe AJ

Not enough info to go on: Sajin, dntfkingcare, Metal Sonic, jon_h61

This is not a consensus list (yet anyway), but some of my views are influenced by buldermar's opinions.

why is TMT down as scum for you here? he only has 2 posts, surely this is not enough to go on. looks like a couple of pretty average posts to me.

[Cabd]

I think everyone reading TMTOF ETCWTF as scum are basing it upon his past game where he did a similar kind of early posting, but eh.

[Nachomamma8]

I think everyone reading TMTOF ETCWTF as scum are basing it upon his past game where he did a similar kind of early posting, but eh.

There's a past game where he did something similar? I just thought he was scum because his second post sucked big time, but meta is bonus.

[Mac]

I get the feeling ghost is tunneling me. like hell I'm "agreeing with nacho to look town." fucking ridiculous reasoning. Apparently to ghost alot of my posts "look town" but I'm still scum. I'm bored of him tunneling me already.

[Varsoon]

In regard to my 252, Sven said he looks for town first, then scum, ergo, my 261.


Elaboration on 261: I explained this elsewhere in the thread, but I'll be more thorough here. Orc's aware of this, but I actually find it pretty interesting to, as town, do something scummy to deliberately start game discussion. Regardless, Sven's claim got a lot of people to respond in a lot of ways. I feel like town would be more likely to handle things thoughtfully whereas scum would push for an early wagon there. I did something similar in my very first game and even referred to it as a litmus test. Regardless, the myriad of responses allows players to better judge everyone in the game, and even if the claim itself isn't very pro-town, the resulting replies and discussion generated can work to town's benefit.

P-EDIT: Good deflect and misrep, Ghostlin, but we all forgot your mac vote 300~ posts ago.
Also, I'm not talking about Sven, I'm talking about me and TD. The day isn't halfway done. These are early wagons that have been around for a couple hundred posts now.


VOTE: Ghostlin

2's responses strike me as pretty town, or thorough scum. Either way, much more interested in the Ghostlin wagon now.
@Mac: He's not really doing a good job of looking at everyone, just his scumspecs.

[Sajin]

I wish you guys would cool it a little bit. 40 pages already is a little much and I need a while to sift through it all. Give me a bit.

[Nachomamma8]

I wish you guys would cool it a little bit. 40 pages already is a little much and I need a while to sift through it all. Give me a bit.

Yeah, I'm gonna ignore this game for a while.

[²]

@Mac it was his second post. Of all the posts related to svenskt's role claims he picked one where svenskt said Cabd sounded awkward, and pushed it further - to the effect that Cabd was trying to say "I'm town" without actually saying it. Out of everything in the thread to that point, he picked a way to subtly support the claimed miller and undermine a player talking about how scum might react to the claimed miller.

[Varsoon]

I'll stay here, since my presence shuts orc up.

[Mac]

Mac's vote looks bad. He presents a well thought-out case on me, then waits for Nacho to vote. I've got to run to work (I just needed to catch up before you guys let loose the flood gates) so I'll respond more to his post later.

just because nacho voted before me, doesn't mean I was waiting for him. regardless, nacho's a strong town read of mine so I'd feel pretty comfortable with him anyway.

[²]

Your vote should always be founded on your own logic, if your own logic agrees with someone elses, is their logic makes you change yours, fine. But sheeping as pure sheeping IMO has always been and will always be wrong.

If I replace into a game in which the best player I know participates and that player is an innocent child (confirmed town by mod) and there is an hour left and my vote is the deciding vote between two players, should I listen to that player and follow his logic or should I arbitrarily place my vote based on my own logic from reading the 1/100th part of the game that I have time to read prior to deadline?

- b

[Mac]

@Mac it was his second post. Of all the posts related to svenskt's role claims he picked one where svenskt said Cabd sounded awkward, and pushed it further - to the effect that Cabd was trying to say "I'm town" without actually saying it. Out of everything in the thread to that point, he picked a way to subtly support the claimed miller and undermine a player talking about how scum might react to the claimed miller.

hmmm I can see where you are coming from. I still think it's a bit weak, we really need to here more from him.

there's still one poor chap left to post.

[Cabd]

Yeah, just realized john_h61 has yet to show up. Heh. 1,000+ posts for him to catch up with.