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Post Post #975 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:06 am

Post by Catastrophe »

:facepalm:

It's not an active role. It's a passive role. When he dies, we lose full role flips. He can't control it, therefore it's passive.

This is not a secret. It's what he's said all along, it's what you and copper have said all along, and it took me longer than most people to realize how his role worked.

You think I had prior knowledge of what his role did? Did you forget the part where I didn't even understand what his role was until multiple people explained it?
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Post Post #976 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:06 am

Post by Catastrophe »

--tool.
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Post Post #977 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:07 am

Post by Catastrophe »

"When he's alive we get full role flips" and "when he's dead we lose full role flips" mean the same goddamn thing, Kitty. What are you even saying.
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Post Post #978 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:14 am

Post by copper223 »

I am re-reading Kthxbye Cata and you really look like scum to me by association, after you scumread him for his flip he has maintained a scumread on Cata and BRantz (notice the order he gives), but always insisted that BRantz be left off the wagon, or BRantz be voted off today, mentioning Cata only in passing and as a side note.

Cata, you are dense if you think I'm scum after the card flips. The evedence is there that my PR is exactly as I state it. The only way you think I'm scum still is if you think scum have my PR which makes zero sense.

Gett off me bro.
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Post Post #979 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:20 am

Post by copper223 »

The evedence is there that my PR is exactly as I state it.

go and re-read my claim, I modified it!
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Post Post #980 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:21 am

Post by Catastrophe »

For those who don't remember, this is how things went:

Kthxbye wrote:I enable full card flips. Upon my death, only character's and their alignment will be flipped.


Catastrophe wrote:Forgive me if I'm misreading your claim, but are you saying that after you die we get to know the flavor, alignment and role of the people who have died? Because we, uh, generally get that information in all mafia games.


BRantz wrote:@Cata: I think kthx is saying that we get full flips as long as he is alive. After that we only get names and alignments.


Kthxbye wrote:copper wants to lynch full flips. Hmmm, who'd wanna do that? Oh yeah, scum.


Catastrophe wrote:So, Kthx, you're saying that we
stop
getting full flips after you die?


So you're saying that because I understood something that was
really, really fucking obvious
after it was explained, I must have had advance knowledge?
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Post Post #981 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:26 am

Post by copper223 »

@Cat
The difference is, is it a passive ability that Kthxbye has while alive, then that role is inherently pro town, him staying alive helps town get more information than scum and avoids scum being able to fake claim as you mentioned, town gets punished for mislynchim him, or is it an active ability the kthxbye has when he's dead, then that's an inherently pro scum role, because even if we lynch him he still takes something away from town.

You arguing with Boo that it's not a town role by default is a strong indicator that you were aware there was a second way to look at his role that would not be pro town.
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Post Post #982 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:28 am

Post by Catastrophe »

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN ACTIVE ABILITY YOU USE WHEN YOU'RE DEAD.
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Post Post #983 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:32 am

Post by copper223 »

Call it passive ability then, the point is the same, if it's something that happens while he is alive, then it's a pro town role, if it is something that triggers when he's dead it's pro scum, Boo only mentioned the pro town version that Ffery saw in the other game and that's only a pro town role, if he stays alive town benefits, if he is mislynched town gets punished, if scum kill him they get rewarded by removing the flips, nobody minus you gave any indication of knowing it could also be a scum role if you reverse the passives from alive to dead.
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Post Post #984 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:36 am

Post by Bookitty »

@Cata: There is such a thing as an ability that activates upon your death. In this case it would be in the nature of a vengeful, except instead of targeting a player it targets a natural ability of the entire town.

Passive ability while alive is how I was reading it. You were clearly reading it as a punitive pro-scum measure when he dies, which would make it anti-town.

Which is definitely what you argued in those quotes I posted. It's not consistent what Kthxbye said, anyway. It's not consistent with what anyone said except you.

I think your confusion about the role and your sniping back and forth with kthxbye was feigned. You thought you understood it a lot better than me when you started arguing with me about it yesterday.
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Post Post #985 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:36 am

Post by Bookitty »

Ninja'd by copper, but I agree completely with him.
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Post Post #986 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:37 am

Post by Catastrophe »

You're running around in a circle, copper.

The role does one thing when he's alive and another when he's dead. You can look at it from any angle and that fact will be, and always has been, true. What you're saying right now is basically "If it's something he has when he's alive, it's pro-town. If it's something he has when he's dead, it's pro-scum."

It's a role that functions regardless of his actions whether he's alive or dead, so what you're saying makes no sense. It's like saying A=B, B=C and A=C, but when you look at A it looks pro-town and when you look at C it looks pro-scum.
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Post Post #987 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:38 am

Post by Bookitty »

Why did you think it was an anti-town role, Cat?

Take your time. Explain.
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Post Post #988 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:39 am

Post by Bookitty »

Also:

@Medea: Take your time and get well. I think you're going to have a little time to recuperate.
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Post Post #989 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:41 am

Post by Catastrophe »

"Passive ability while alive that triggers upon death" = "passive ability while alive" = "passive ability while dead"

"Town gets full role flips while Kthx is alive" = "town loses full role flips when Kthx dies"

Both of you keep saying two things that mean the exact same thing and then acting like they mean something different.

P-Edit: Because I understood that town would lose full role flips upon death and scum would gain the ability to fakeclaim more things with relative impunity. BRantz understood this. Policy Lynch understood this. I don't understand why you can't wrap your head around it.
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Post Post #990 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:44 am

Post by Bookitty »

Catastrophe wrote:You're running around in a circle, copper.

The role does one thing when he's alive and another when he's dead. You can look at it from any angle and that fact will be, and always has been, true. What you're saying right now is basically "If it's something he has when he's alive, it's pro-town. If it's something he has when he's dead, it's pro-scum."

It's a role that functions regardless of his actions whether he's alive or dead, so what you're saying makes no sense. It's like saying A=B, B=C and A=C, but when you look at A it looks pro-town and when you look at C it looks pro-scum.


Also, this is not correct.

If I say, "Copper, if you let me play on your PS4, I'll give you a cupcake every day," that's a positive interaction. Pro-copper, pro-me. Even pro-cupcake!

If I say, "Copper, if you don't let me play on your PS4, I'll take away your cupcakes," that's me being a total jerk. Negative interaction. Only pro-me. Scummy.

If Kthxbye was giving us this ability while he was alive, that's pro-town. If he was taking an ability we already had away from us if he died, that's pro-scum. You were arguing it was the second scenario, something no one else had argued or even mentioned.

The second scenario turns out to be the case. Only you knew that. Kthxbye didn't say it. So why did you think about it like that, especially if you were so terribly confused?
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Post Post #991 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:46 am

Post by Catastrophe »

HE SAID IT IN #408. HE SAID COPPER WANTS TO LYNCH FULL FLIPS. HE FLAT OUT, EXPLICITLY, OBVIOUSLY TOLD US THAT WE WOULD LOSE FULL FLIPS IF HE DIED.

Your dichotomy is a misrepresentation of what was being said. It's not "If you let me play on your PS4 I'll give you a cupcake," It was (and always was, and obviously was), "Hey copper, I brought some cupcakes over and when I leave I'm taking them with me."
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Post Post #992 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:48 am

Post by copper223 »

@Cata
Like Boo said, it's all about role design, the first one is a negative utility townrole, the second is a scumrole that gets some compensation in cases where it gets screwed by an early investigative or by the player misplaying it.
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Post Post #993 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:49 am

Post by Catastrophe »

He is both giving it to you while he's alive and taking it away when he dies. They are two sides of the same coin. They are both true and in fact one cannot be true without the other being true.

The same thing happens regardless of whether you think of it as something he gives us or something he takes away. His role doesn't change just because you think of it differently.
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Post Post #994 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:50 am

Post by Bookitty »

Catastrophe wrote:Your dichotomy is a misrepresentation of what was being said. It's not "If you let me play on your PS4 I'll give you a cupcake," It was (and always was, and obviously was), "Hey copper, I brought some cupcakes over and when I leave I'm taking them with me."


You didn't think that. I can prove it.

Catastrophe wrote:The role could have been given to him as a fakeclaim; I don't buy that his role is real just because fferyllt has used it before.

Is the full role PM not what we would normally get in a UPick game where lots of people have multiple PRs complete with flavor? I kind of thought we would normally get that.


And I see the loss of role info upon flips as more anti-town than anti-scum. Scum loses the knowledge of what PRs have been killed; town loses the ability to know whether scum is claiming the role of a dead player.


You clearly didn't think Kthxbye was the reason we had role PM info in the first place.

So that's not true.
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"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
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Post Post #995 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 5:59 am

Post by Catastrophe »

Aaaaaaaand now you're changing your argument.

This current round of discussion is about my conception
before Krystal's result was made public
of what Kthx's role did, not whether I believed it was true at the time. At the time, I wasn't sure of whether the role was real or not.

I'm not saying that I believed Kthx's role was real at the time. I believe it is now because we have an investigative result saying it is. When I made post #898 I was trying to feel out whether Kthx's role had been confirmed like so many people were saying.
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Post Post #996 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:05 am

Post by Bookitty »

No, my argument is and remains that you were looking at Kthxbye's claim as an anti-town claim. There's only one set of circumstances in which it's anti-town like you were saying even in the most recent quote I listed from you, in which you said:

"And I see the loss of role info upon flips as more anti-town than anti-scum. Scum loses the knowledge of what PRs have been killed; town loses the ability to know whether scum is claiming the role of a dead player."

Everyone else was seeing it as pro-town. You see it as anti-town. You even argued with me prior to Krystal's awesome reveal about how it was anti-town. When it turns out to BE anti-town, you are caught with too much info.

In you said:

"It was (and always was, and obviously was), "Hey copper, I brought some cupcakes over and when I leave I'm taking them with me.""

Always was. Obviously was. Except that's not what you thought, is it? I think I proved that with your own words.

You're caught, Catastrophe. I'm not judging, I'm just saying.
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Post Post #997 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:06 am

Post by copper223 »

Your reactions after Kthxbye claimed are all consistent with someone knowing that role is pro scum and trying to distance themselves from him:

- I don't believe him, he may be fake claiming (trying to hide the nature of the role), when as I said fake claiming there makes little sense, even partially claiming as Kthx did was really dumb.

- I am scumreading Kthx, distancing yourself.

- Arguing with Boo about it being possibly pro scum as well (but saying there may be a way to clear Kthxbye anyway) today.

Krystal claims and lo and behold it turns out that was most likely a scumrole.

Now this is very different from what everyone else thought at the time and with good reason, as Boo gave us information about that role existing in another game and explaining it in a way that would make everyone think it's a pro town designed role.

The way Kthxbye also reacted to your accusations is consistent with being teammates:

- He tells you you are dense and should re-read his claim.

- He scumreads you and BRantz, but always puts the focus on him first and only taggs you on as an afterthought.
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Post Post #998 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:15 am

Post by copper223 »

The fact you even postulated a fakeclaim there also hints at you having more information than you should, if you are aware of Kthx's role at that point you know he only partially claimed so saying he might be faking it may sound perfectly reasonable to you when it's not.
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Post Post #999 (ISO) » Tue Jan 20, 2015 6:31 am

Post by Catastrophe »

@Copper: I postulated that it could be a fakeclaim after Policy Lynch brought that up.

@Boo: What I said was:

Catastrophe wrote:Your dichotomy is a misrepresentation of
what was being said
.


I was explaining what Kthx had obviously claimed, not what I obviously believed.

You have both shoved fiery torches of confbias into your eyeballs and voluntarily sliced out the logic centers of your brains and I can't keep arguing this ridiculous bullshit with you forever. So if enough people out there actually believe this pile of crap for us to get lynched over it, then we can talk about it some more. But right now this is a stumbling block you have placed in the way of town having discussions that matter.

TSO can talk about this if he wants. For now, I'm done.
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