Mafiascum.net

In post 973, Farkran wrote:Then why did you vote Replica in his stead? From your point of view, you were like 10 hours from deadline, before replacement extensions. Replica had no votes. What's the meaning of you vanity wagoning Replica at that specific moment in time?

why not? i wasn't planning on suddenly going offline afterwards. if after getting caught up on the thread and checking deadline we had no time, i would have gone back.

and then the vote stayed since we end up having time. after that i avoided revoting Hectic because i didn't want to end the day yet, and he would have been at L-1 had i done so.

In post 974, Chara wrote:

In post 392, Hectic wrote:

In post 380, Chara wrote: there's the style to the posting (something that i believe is inherent to Replica, which is not AI in and of itself) first of all, which rings honest. i'm not explaining it well but i think it's something that's really difficult to fake, the way that Replica has essentially introduced themself and their methodology and then proceeded to apply it in a way that does not seem performative.
i kind of don't want to know who they are but i can't help wondering anyway.

you there.
they've been consistently open-minded and transparent.
only weird thing is i didn't agree with either of the assessments in 275.
the first looks like a fluff post not relevant to alignment.
the second is something others also expressed in-thread.
many didn't realise that SPARING means no flips = no information.
but then their thoughts on Asriel or Sherlock in 296 are very reasonable.
and this is similar across their ISO like in their interactions with Nacho.
willing to SPARE this pal too.

this post was in response to voicing my TR and Hectic gave his own reasons for agreeing with the read and why he would spare. you quoted it.

Ok, so... Hectic acknowledges that Replica posted wrong conclusions and had wrong premises for pushing a spare strategy, yet townreads him enough to spare him. I also initially townleaned Replica because of his apparent trasparency, but this is not a reason to have a hard townread on him. My problem with people pushing for a spare is that they are all too confident about it, not realizing that if even just one scum is spared, it's a disaster. If anything, this reads to me as either pocketing towards town!Replica (my favored solve right now), or the Hectic/Replica scumteam trying to form a mutual townbloc in which case you are being pocketed heavily (less likely after my reread).

If Hectic is not scum, the whole solve falls apart and i should look elsewhere, but currently i am townleaning/townreading Nacho, Amrun, Almidia (now bingle) way more than the rest of the playerlist. I'm still considering Chemist, but the chances are that... he's just being chemist. Psyche is individually scummy and i don't know what to make of him.

Hectic isn't scum. why does scum Hectic decide not to be spared on day 1? there was consensus to spare him, and quite literally the only thing stopping it was Hectic himself.
and if it was a lack of foresight (but still, there's very little reason to go for some meagre towncred from extending the day in exchange for possibly not being spared), i don't think scum who feels frustrated about the mistake then goes on to tell the thread about it, especially when a scum Hectic has otherwise remained very townread.

i also don't find it weird to say you don't like something from a slot you otherwise townread. i've in the past hated the play of a slot and not agreed with any of their reads, but i still came to a strong townread for other reasons. town are wrong, they to be. they are uninformed. going for wrongness (or contradictions) is surface-level scumhunting and doesn't get you very far.

can you tell me why you scumread him, exactly? keeping in mind i'm aware of your "partners with Chara or Replica" reading. are partner-tells (when you aren't sure of the partner) enough to say he's scum? what about his actual play?
if you say it's the pushing for a spare, then that's the entire list in my memory besides Amrun, and they can't all be scum.

In post 978, Chara wrote:Hectic isn't scum. why does scum Hectic decide not to be spared on day 1? there was consensus to spare him, and quite literally the only thing stopping it was Hectic himself.
and if it was a lack of foresight (but still, there's very little reason to go for some meagre towncred from extending the day in exchange for possibly not being spared), i don't think scum who feels frustrated about the mistake then goes on to tell the thread about it, especially when a scum Hectic has otherwise remained very townread.

i also don't find it weird to say you don't like something from a slot you otherwise townread. i've in the past hated the play of a slot and not agreed with any of their reads, but i still came to a strong townread for other reasons. town are wrong, they

have

to be. they are uninformed. going for wrongness (or contradictions) is surface-level scumhunting and doesn't get you very far.

can you tell me why you scumread him, exactly? keeping in mind i'm aware of your "partners with Chara or Replica" reading. are partner-tells (when you aren't sure of the partner) enough to say he's scum? what about his actual play?
if you say it's the pushing for a spare, then that's the entire list in my memory besides Amrun, and they can't all be scum.

Quick question: what's the reason for town!hectic to delay his own sparing? Because you are quick to say there's no reason for scum!hectic to do so, but neither there is from a town standopoint. Before that, hectic wanted to spare the FN first, but what's the point of sparing publicly conftown over himself (also conftown from his pov)? The FN would just do his job and would probably have been spared the next day. It would actually work even better for town!hectic and the sparepushers as a whole to get two town spared, given that they believed it was optimal strategy.

Delaying the spare could have 3 objectives from a scum mindset: 1. Lamist; 2. Allows them to hunt for the FN, or have him claim for some reason; 3. He'll likely be spared later anyways, since he knows he can't be nightkilled.

What motive is there from a town standpoint to delay a spare on (what you know to be) conftown and have very high odds to spare the FN day 2?

Besides, i individually scumlean every sparepusher, yes. Even moreso those who push for high amount of spares, with unnaturally high confidence in doing so. The list you pointed out is a misrep though: in the end, some slots gave in to sparing, but earlier in the day, Nacho, Sherlock and Amrun (and later me) were all strongly opposing the spare route.

i still scumlean people who were slow to townread sujimichi

in general im really skeptical of people who seem to systematically insist on ambiguity in the game that's not really there. sujimichi town was an easy call but a lot of people preferred to exaggerate the possibility that the signals were misleading. i wonder if we might've had a more sober conversation about whether lynching D1 was a better idea than sparing all-but-definite town if it weren't for the concerted obfuscation of the fact that he was all-but-definite town. making the game seem more mysterious than it really is only helps scum and gives them more room to hide.

it's possible that there was sincere disagreement between townies about the information in sujimichi's PT post, but i wouldn't be surprised at all if much of it turned out to have been an expression of the other faction's awareness that 2 town getting cleared so early in the game without PR exposure was not good for their win odds

i remember hearing some time ago that bert gets really bored and disengaged as scum. is that a false memory?

oh nachomamma isn't bert of course

There is literally no one I feel comfortable sparing in this moment, and I don’t think that will change.

Farkran’s case is BONKERS, but almost maybe too bonkers to be scum.

For some reason I’m feeling like Psyche is genuine today, even if I disagree with him.

I do kind of feel like one of nacho/alimdia slot are scum now, though likely not both. I await seeing what these slots do.

I do have research to do before I firm up my reads.

Forgot to say still prefer alimdia slot for scum over nacho.

In post 980, Psyche wrote:i still scumlean people who were slow to townread sujimichi

Can you elaborate with names? I can only recall Chara.

In post 984, Amrun wrote:Farkran’s case is BONKERS

Why?

Actually can anyone make a towncase of Hectic for me? Because i am reading and rereading his ISO and i can't find any reason to townread him so much as you guys do. If i am missing something, i'd like to know what.

To me, it's just a fairly active player who is good at gimmicking (the impersonation of undertale characters is awesome, i feel like i'm reading the real things), but... this is not towny, it's NAI at best, and i really don't see any content worth of a townread so strong as the gamestate is suggesting. I tried re-reading from a townhunt point of view - something i am very inexperienced with, since in my only other townhunt-based game i rolled scum, and town!hectic was there as well - but i don't see any reason to switch his reads like he did, nor do i see any reason to keep pushing for a 4-spared route when he only has 2 townreads left from what i could gather in his recent posting. Also i don't think he even tried to read this game from a scumhunter/fighter point of view, because literally the only reason he is scumreading me now is because i started scumreading Replica and Chara.

Also, i have just today ended a game with town!Hectic (i was town too) and if anything he was less gimmicky both in the townhunt game and the cult game modded by Kerset. I wouldn't use meta gimmickiness as an alignment tell, but it seems to me that some of you would? Bingle was in the cult game too, so i could use some additional insight from him when he catches up.

In post 944, Farkran wrote:The positions where Chara, Replica and Hectic are placed by their counterparts are not the result of reconsidering. There is nothing in-between my quoted posts that justifies the high jumps in their readlists.

Two of these posts are direct responses to Farkran's questions

In post 943, Hectic wrote:Replica, could I hear why your read on Chara changed from 2nd highest loserread to strong town?
curious to hear your progression on it.

I think the above answers this, but to summarize I really, REALLY liked their posts responding to me/Amrun. My early scumlean was feeling out tone and playstyle, and really just looking for a place to start.

I don't think Hectic is hardtown, he was playing okay and had a nice progression on someone, I think Billy Pilgrim, early Day 1 and has just been playing very crisply since the spare.

As mentioned before, I'd really rather have a better reason for a Day 2 spare than "Isn't making mistakes if he's mafia". Day 1 I'm very willing to play the odds with spares. Each day worsens those odds and I become significantly less inclined to spin the wheel.

In post 987, Farkran wrote:

In post 984, Amrun wrote:Farkran’s case is BONKERS

Why?

Even if one or all of these people are scum, I think a lot of your reasoning is false. You have some good points but it just seems totally out of left field to me.

I want to reread for myself though.

In post 984, Amrun wrote:Farkran’s case is BONKERS, but almost maybe too bonkers to be scum.

Disagree. Yesterday was a very blatant attempt to hide the fact he was shifting the point he was making by making them so long and convoluted no third party would be willing to trace them.

He was all over the place, "Replica's statements say their ego is too big to not trust their own reads, and that conflict is incompatible with sparing" to "If you believe in sparing you have to think you have really strong townreads" to "Anyone who pushes a spare for valuing 7% EV over flips is scummy so that means Replica" with all sort of hoops to jump through along the way as I provided numerous back references to me displaying exactly the opposite attitudes he was attributing to me.

Horrible example of working backwards, and even if people double down on bad reads as town I really doubt many intentionally contort and misrepresent their previous points instead of making new ones.

In post 990, Replica wrote:I don't think Hectic is hardtown, he was playing okay and had a nice progression on someone, I think Billy Pilgrim, early Day 1 and has just been playing very crisply since the spare.

As mentioned before, I'd really rather have a better reason for a Day 2 spare than "Isn't making mistakes if he's mafia". Day 1 I'm very willing to play the odds with spares. Each day worsens those odds and I become significantly less inclined to spin the wheel.

Does this mean Hectic was an ok d1 spare, but now that we are in d2 he isn't anymore?

I mean, i'm kinda to the point where i'm sorry for arguing against your every post, but i just find it... impossibly high levels of hard to understand how you are approaching this game if you are town.

Pedit: yeah...

The people that are really active aren't the ones I really want to hear from right now.

I really need Bingle/Chemist/Nacho to weigh in instead of plowing through Hectic's ISO for the tenth time.

In post 991, Amrun wrote:

In post 987, Farkran wrote:

In post 984, Amrun wrote:Farkran’s case is BONKERS

Why?

Even if one or all of these people are scum, I think a lot of your reasoning is false. You have some good points but it just seems totally out of left field to me.

I want to reread for myself though.

Please re-read and point out where i am wrong or making it up. Because honestly i don't see how those trio's reads could be genuine. Also i'd like to hear why you shifted your scumreads from me/chara to nacho/almidia(bingle) today, i didn't ignore that - i was just waiting for you to speak up, but it seems like you're back to scumread me and i'm interested in why.

In post 993, Farkran wrote:

In post 990, Replica wrote:I don't think Hectic is hardtown, he was playing okay and had a nice progression on someone, I think Billy Pilgrim, early Day 1 and has just been playing very crisply since the spare.

As mentioned before, I'd really rather have a better reason for a Day 2 spare than "Isn't making mistakes if he's mafia". Day 1 I'm very willing to play the odds with spares. Each day worsens those odds and I become significantly less inclined to spin the wheel.

Does this mean Hectic was an ok d1 spare, but now that we are in d2 he isn't anymore?

I mean, i'm kinda to the point where i'm sorry for arguing against your every post, but i just find it... impossibly high levels of hard to understand how you are approaching this game if you are town.

Classic. One of the posts I literally just linked to you was opening the day by saying this, and even started out addressing you. You aren't even trying to understand my point of view, just working backwards.

Here I am in #379 saying exactly the same thing.

"I can't understand how these reads are genuine"

Doesn't open any of the six posts, which he apparently had no idea existed, that addresses the hole he was looking for.

In post 992, Replica wrote:

In post 984, Amrun wrote:Farkran’s case is BONKERS, but almost maybe too bonkers to be scum.

Disagree. Yesterday was a very blatant attempt to hide the fact he was shifting the point he was making by making them so long and convoluted no third party would be willing to trace them.

He was all over the place, "Replica's statements say their ego is too big to not trust their own reads, and that conflict is incompatible with sparing" to "If you believe in sparing you have to think you have really strong townreads" to "Anyone who pushes a spare for valuing 7% EV over flips is scummy so that means Replica" with all sort of hoops to jump through along the way as I provided numerous back references to me displaying exactly the opposite attitudes he was attributing to me.

Horrible example of working backwards, and even if people double down on bad reads as town I really doubt many intentionally contort and misrepresent their previous points instead of making new ones.

None of this is true, literally none. I explained very well how you are separating the "replica is inconsistently pushing for a spare when he isn't confident in his reads" and the "pushing for a spare because of 7% higher EV is scummy" - they are one and the same. Post 882. If anything, i think you are now less scummy than Hectic and Chara, you probably entered a death tunnel on me because i am opposing your in-game approach. Although posts like 990 are really, really bad...

I could really talk about this all day, but I'd rather focus on getting spares and getting the people who aren't involved and need to be up to speed. If anyone that isn't Farkran has a question for me, I'll answer, but otherwise I'll be back either when the missing/recently replaced players join in, or if I find something new that I think is valuable.

Priority imo is getting Bingle caught up and Nacho in the game.