[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Phoenicks]

A friend and I made this variant on 2of4:

Jx3

-5 VTs
-2 of: {Cop, JK, Named Townie}
-2 one-shot Janitors

The Doc/Jailkeeper setup is eliminated, and with the extra VT gone the town is never inexplicably weaker. The room for mafia to fakeclaim comes from the janitor kills, which can prevent town from knowing how many of their 2 power roles are alive. There's always one power role mafia can fakeclaim, and none of the roles can be proven.

The Cop/JK setup is the only setup with 2 town nightactions, but Cop and JK can't effectively coordinate. The possibility of a Janitor'd PR would normally stop collusion anyways.

Both mafiosi are janitors to prevent virtual autoloss if the sole janitor was lynched Day 1.

If a Jailkeeper stops a Janitor'd kill, the one-shot power is used up.

[Phoenicks]

Instead of doing two janitors, just make a factional 1-shot janitor.

That might work better if the game ends up maf-sided. We wanted to avoid cases where the jailkeeper can stop the 1-shot janitor kill from failing (leading to confirmation that there's a jailkeeper with no mafia janitor kills left.) We're still experimenting.

I like it. Does janitoring someone give mafia their flip?

Yes -- that way the town can't fully trust claims if only two players claim.

[Phoenicks]

(Since the town knows that nightkilled targets are townies, I'm torn. Players can't claim to clear -- point taken. But since the start has 2 PRs, scum have fewer hiding spots than 2of4 until a janitor kill goes through. With Jailkeeper* in 2/3 setups, scum's nightkill advantage is reduced. The setup without a JK is probably the most scum-sided, but even if scum hit Cop and Named Townie correctly, the game's not too different from mountainous because the town going in knows about fakeclaims.

If a PR is lynched and town sees the flip, that's separate from the janitor power. Worst-case is mafia janitors both PRs Nights 1 and 2 -- take away the janitor abilities and this situation does not get much better for town. If town lynches wrong Days 1 and 2, it shouldn't look great.

The opposite, worst-case for mafia starts with the Jailkeeper blocking the Night 1 janitor kill (especially if scum is lynched Day 1). Giving 2 shots and ruling it spent if the kill fails was one solution, not without problems. Should I have one janitor kill that works on the first successful nightkill? Should the mafia not learn who their target was? I'm not sure.

*Jailkeeper was picked to avoid Follow the Cop and because he doesn't confirm his target's alliance on a NK.)

Shorter: do you think that two janitor shots makes the game mafia-sided under normal circumstances?

[Phoenicks]

Thanks, Quadz and Leafsnail.

Popp, the main problem is that having enough distinct power roles is more powerful to the town than the powers themselves because

townies can claim to clear.

Sans extensive complications, some fixes:

- Make the number of each power role variable.
- Don't tell townies what power they have until death.
- Give all townies the same power.
- Don't reveal how many of each power there are.

Since those changes (except the third) make the game semi-open, you could introduce other ideas that change the game nature more:

- Make the mafia powerful enough where massclaims would only even things out (give them revenge shots, conversions, janitor kills, yakuza kills, etc.)
- Increase the number of townie slots (not townies) and give each mafioso one of those slots at random as a fakeclaim.
- Increase the number of mafia.
- No reveals on death; actions are made to a target of the deceased's choosing.

I think the easiest (best) solution is just to make the number of power roles for each category variable. Semi-open, but massclaims again have more drawbacks than benefits.