[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Sméagol]

Hmmz, user changed all of a sudden..
I'm not sure, I think it works overall, but any roles that have more town than mafia utility will disappear if they accidentally target mafia. You can say goodbye to the doc if they target mafia once. And jack-of-all-trades will have weird effects.

[Sméagol]

I haven't thought this through. Can this work / be made to work?

13 players:

mafia vanilla
mafia neapolitan

mafia traitor
mafia traitor
mafia traitor
mafia traitor
mafia traitor
mafia traitor

town vanilla
town vanilla
town vanilla
town vigilante
town cop

Assume the roles are normal,

except

the traitors don't know who the "proper" mafia members are.

My first thought is that both town as well as the "proper" mafia will claim to be a traitor, and players will actually have to townhunt to win the game. Traitors are obviously not going to lynch their fellow (but "proper") mafia teammates, but they can't claim unless they get rid of the vigilante, who will shoot them on sight, and it only takes 2 to win. Town will claim traitor to not get lynched of course. If town loses the vig, they have to convince the players that the mafia members are actually town.

Like I said, I didn't think this through, I may be overlooking something obvious (and I don't know if something similar has been tried before).

[Sméagol]

It's a variation of a vanilla cop.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Neapolitan

[Sméagol]

Yup, good call.

edit:

Simply disabling no lynch would not be enough, you have to force a lynch each day. A most votes lynch would do the trick I think, though I'd like an elegant solution for ties, or a situation where everyone refuses to vote.

Edit 2:

Or... Maybe play around with the win conditions.. Mafia (without traitors) win when they match or outnumber town, town wins when they match or outnumber (mafia + traitors). Hmmz.

I was also thinking that it's unfair to have the mafia have access to a safeclaim (the neapolitan), if they get a lucky early kill on the vig. Simple solution would be to get rid of the neapolitan, but I like giving the mafia some ability to find potential targets. So the other solution would be to have something of a backup vig.

Then there's the question if this is fun though.

[Sméagol]

Who's going to lynch the neapolitan? The traitors aren't. Town can't.
The only possibility is if a townie counterclaims neapolitan to achieve a 1 on 1 trade, which is still advantageous to town, but much less so than in a normal set-up, and carries a big risk.

[Sméagol]

That's not quite correct..
Town wouldn't lose if they lost both masons. The traitors lose when they lose both proper mafia, regardless how many of them survive. The neapolitan also wouldn't fullfil the same role as it does in this set-up.

Anyway, I think it may be worth a future marathon experiment. Rather than tampering with the lynch mechanics, I think I'll just lose the mafia factional kill. Perhaps lose the mafia neapolitan, or add a back-up vig instead.

[Sméagol]

Which is why I prefer adding a backup vig (though to be precise, I'd like to randomly make one vanilla townie the new vig when the original one is dead). This will make sure they won't be able to claim anything in the beginning.
Other than that, maybe adjusting the ratio could help. Trading in one traitor for another vanilla townie.

[Sméagol]

Thought some more about it, I think I'd like to run it in a marathon in this set-up:

mafia vanilla
mafia neapolitan

mafia traitor
mafia traitor
mafia traitor
mafia traitor
mafia traitor
mafia traitor

town vanilla
town vanilla
town vanilla
town cop
town cop

Assume the roles are normal,

except

the traitors don't know who the "proper" mafia members are.

Vengeful mechanic: anyone who gets lynched may optionally take someone else down with him.

The vengeful mechanic solves both the lynching problem as well as the claiming problem. I was thinking of maybe only giving town a vengeful factional ability, but I'm all for equal (mis)opportunity. With the mechanic, I thought the vig would be overkill / redundant. Added a second cop instead.. Cops have a different function here than they'd have in a normal game, they can't distinguish between traitors and other mafia, so they're much less useful, plus they can't really claim anything, unless they wanted to try a last ditch effort, which reduces their use even further.. Their ability mostly serves them personally, so they can filter out who to kill with their vengekill and who not.

[Sméagol]

Yeah, you already mentioned, but I already replied there are some slight differences.. If you were to make the traitors VTs and simply switch the alignment of the others, you do

not

get the exact same game.

[Sméagol]

Might be a fun experiment, but I think it's in favour of the mafia.. Though I'm not sure.
Mafia will give this to anyone who suspects other townies obviously, so to counteract this town may want to lie about their suspects. But that may be hard to pull off, and may make them look scummy I suspect.. But I dunno.

############

I was thinking of doing a quick micro game, as I have no idea if I have the time to do a normal game right now.

9 players (7-2)

Quick day night cycle, I was thinking 6-1.

No predetermined roles. Instead:

People can buy an ability for the night. They buy it with their voting power.. After using an ability, they lose their vote next day.

Available abilities will be on a yet to be determined whitelist, probably roughly the normal roles abilities, but I'll probably want to restrict it even further.

All abilities are restricted to one use each night.

The number of abilities that will be handed out will be restricted to (number of players - absolute majority)

Abilities are handed out on a first come first served basis (so deadlines are important).

Is anyone up for that?

(or has this already been done?)

[Sméagol]

I don't think it's scumsided.
I don't like motion detectors, but they don't do "nothing".
The "ascetisiser" (damn people.. On my site, they're just protectors who protect from abilities except kills) is actually pretty useless here. If they use it on themselves, the motion detectors turn into cops. Which is why the mafia won't use it on themselves. Then they could use them on townies to try to "frame" them, but this just creates a lot of wifom for both factions.. Which is more trouble then it's worth, so they probably won't get used at all. Which leaves you with the jailkeeper as the only real power role..
I don't think it's scumsided, but I don't really see the point of the set-up.

edit:

I forgot those detectors see action on both sides (on the player and on the target). So I guess I do see the point.

[Sméagol]

I had this idea that I wanted to try in the micro queue, or the blitz queue now that it's an option, as soon as I know if I have the time in November.

"Buy an ability mafia" (working title)

- No predefined roles.
- Players get to buy an ability for the night.
- The available abilities are on the whitelist below (not fully determined yet)
- Every ability is only available to one player, and they're handed out on a first come, first served basis.
- There will be a max number of abilities handed out each night, so not everyone will be able to do an action. The number is number of players - absolute majority (example: with 13 players, the limit is 6).
- The "cost" of an ability, is the ability to vote on the

next

day.
- you only get to send one request. You will only know if your request is granted the following day.
- There is one special ability, which gives you priority for choosing abilities

next

night.
- Everything else is as usual, player ratios, voting.. Deadlines obviously depend on the queue, but I want "short" deadlines for this game in general. 2-1 for the blitz queue, and 6-1 for the micro queue.

Proposed whitelist:
alignment investigation
ability investigation
kill protect
ability protect
track
reverse track (or watch as you call it)
redirect
roleblock
priority

Any comments on this?

[Sméagol]

[..]
Have a question about one thing.

You attempt to purchase an ability. Do you get charged a vote or not?

Only if your request is granted.

Also unless the game is NOT majority lynch I don't see this working.

I'll elaborate below.

If it has short deadlines and plurality lynch at deadline, the basic concept should work.

I don't like plurality lynches, but I could change the limit of abilities given out. For example, I could make it

number of players - absolute majority - 2

. In fact, after thinking about it, I've decided I like the idea of having all the votes available in the end-game stage, when only 3 players remain. Which means I should stop handing out abilities when 4 players remain.. But I'll have to figure out an algorithm that suits me in both the begin stage of the game as well as the end stage, so I'll come back to that.

Initially, I personally thought the risk of making lynches harder was not a problem:
- First of all, it's a conscious trade-off. Do I get the ability, hopefully catching a scum, and let the others do the voting? You'd better be convincing.
- Secondly, the first come first served and one request restrictions would alleviate this problem.
But like I said, I'll reduce the number of abilities given out, although I don't know by how much yet.

(Also, based on experience with this sort of game, I should mention that it's very important that the game does not have a purchasable kill.)

I have multiple set-up ideas with no pre-defined roles, and I have yet to find a way to incorporate a kill ability in a fair manner.. So no, I won't add a kill ability. In fact, unless prompted otherwise, I'll just use the list I suggested.

First come, first served is a potential problem, though (especially where Cop and Watcher are concerned, which are easily the two most powerful on the list); it means that timezones have a large influence on the game. Especially if the same player goes for it again after again. Perhaps it'd work best if the players are given role priority numbers in their role PMs, and if multiple players request the same role, the player with the highest number wins. (That way, players with lower numbers would know that they would be unlikely to get the more desirable roles.)

This quote touches upon a few things.. First of all, I don't think it will be a problem. Sure, some abilties are more desirable, so you will have to make a decision: request a popular ability and contend with competitors, or request something not as popular and increase your chances.. Or just try to be the first to request it. You could also try to use the dayphase to help you out.. Perhaps openly discuss ability requests, with the risk of the mafia using this to their advantage, or try to leave hints..

About timezones, yeah, that's an unfortunate and unavoidable issue. The "priority" ability was created especially to alleviate that, to give someone else a chance to get a popular ability. I forgot to mention the priority ability is a special case, and doesn't cost you your vote, and doesn't count towards the ability limit. If you request (and are granted) the priority ability, the next night you have first dibs on any ability.

I could try to alleviate it further by having a separate start time independant of the regular deadlines, after which players can start sending in requests. For example, if we take 48 hour dayphases, one day it may be after 24 hours, the next after 36..

I do not want to give certain players an inherent advantage.

Originally, I wanted players to be able to send in another request if their first choice wasn't available, but:
1] That's more work for me.
2] That gives them info that I prefer they only get to know when the night's over.
I could compromise by using wishlists, top 2 or top 3, so if their first choice isn't available, I'll use the next one.

Also 1 night deadlines won't work in the Micro Queue (too much risk of missed night actions), so I think this game would be more suited to the blitz queue (where you can quite legitimately tell people "get online every day or don't show up"). Probably even 3-1 would work (although would definitely count as blitz).

I originally had this in mind for the micro queue, but I'm eager to see how the blitz queue performs here, so I'm leaning towards that one currently. But I'll keep it in mind for future reference.

If I'm doing a micro game, I'll do a 9p (7-2) game with 5-2 day-night cycles, if I'm doing a blitz game, I'll do a 13p (10-3) game with 2-1 day-night cycles. Do you people have any preferences? I'll enter the queue at the start of November, if I know my schedule is clear for the month, although if I enter the Blitz queue I'll need a reviewer first.

[Sméagol]

I'm in the queue for a mini, but I think I'd also like to run a micro, but haven't decided what set-up I want to use..

Are people interested in the following set-up, which I ran off-site (but with people who are not nearly as hardcore as people here are):

High risk, high reward

- Mountainous, no individual roles.
- Everyone, including mafia, is a (unrestricted) vigilante.
- The mafia are not in a team. They have the same win condition, but don't know eachother, and can't communicate.
- Voting as usual.
- For a micro I'd probably go 6-3 (it's more difficult for the mafia), and 5-2 day- night cycles, although I have no preference for the latter.

The idea is that the mafia have more opportunities to kill townies off, but on the other hand also risk killing eachother off. All players need to scumhunt, but with different motivations..
Was considering this for a marathon weekend, but I was wondering if there was any interest to run this as a micro. I think it works better with more people (a night 1 game over is a serious possibility), but outside of marathon, I think I'll start small while gaging interest. Otherwise I'll look at my other ideas.

[Sméagol]

I believe with similar games like this people here are inclined to limit the shots. They aren't limited, everyone can shoot every night, they have to decide each night if their reads are strong enough to act upon.. Hence the title.

[Sméagol]

I believe with similar games like this people here are inclined to limit the shots. They aren't limited, everyone can shoot every night, they have to decide each night if their reads are strong enough to act upon.. Hence the title.

In practice you're wrong.

About limiting shots? I remember looking at some marathon set-ups, vaguely recall seeing 1-shots, but apparently I'm remembering wrong. Think I'll just join the queue and see if people sign up, or maybe I'll take another look at other ideas.

[Sméagol]

[..]
tbh I'm not sure that's actually mafia

If you want to get technical about it, then no.. It's an uniformed minority vs uninformed majority.

[..]
i don't think you get me.

but what you call an unlimited vig is what people call a normal vig. there is one game with an "unlimited vig" i have seen- http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=63284

someone who has seen that game might submit an order to kill everyone. or if its been around longer even more people.

Nah, I still want something resembling a game.. It'll be clear in the ruleset. I was incorrectly assuming people here would expect the vigilantes to be 1-shot or something, for this kind of game, so I stated they were "unrestricted".

[Sméagol]

I believe with similar games like this people here are inclined to limit the shots. They aren't limited, everyone can shoot every night, they have to decide each night if their reads are strong enough to act upon.. Hence the title.

In practice you're wrong.

About limiting shots? I remember looking at some marathon set-ups, vaguely recall seeing 1-shots, but apparently I'm remembering wrong. Think I'll just join the queue and see if people sign up, or maybe I'll take another look at other ideas.

I think I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were saying that if all players could shoot, they wouldn't shoot, which I disagree with. More often than not players will always utilize their abilities if able.

Except Llamafluff

Nah I meant purely from the set-up perspective.. I can't tell how eager players will be to shoot their scum/townreads, but it's going to be a short game nonetheless. But the whole point is there's a risk involved, if your reads are incorrect. Not shooting can be useful too.

[Sméagol]

2 ideas for micros:

You make the rules mafia

[1] mafia
[2] mafia 1-shot extra warning
[3] town 1-shot warning remover
[4] town 1-shot warning remover
[5] town rule investigator

// finds out which custom rule belongs to target player

[6] town vanilla
[7] town vanilla
[8] town vanilla
[9] town vanilla

Pre-game, players must add an additional rule to my general ruleset. I'm not going to look for any infractions of the custom rules, I'll leave that up to the players. Any custom rule infractions gives you one warning point, 3 warning and you're modkilled. I'd like to see example of what you'd come up with as rules, at the moment the only requirement I have is that they're indiscriminatory, but I'm also not fond of overly restrictive post restrictions. Since they're sent in pre-game, there's no use in making them anti-town or anti-mafia. As you can see, the actual set-up is pretty basic. Voting and mafia abilities as usual.

Secret Santa mafia

[1] 1-shot cop
[2] 1-shot doctor
[3] 1-shot follower
[4] 1-shot roleblocker
[5] 1-shot secret santa investigator

// finds out who gave what to target player

[6] 1-shot 1-shot tracker
[7] 1-shot fruit vendor
[8] 1-shot fruit vendor
[9] 1-shot fruit vendor

Above is not the role distribution, but the pool of abilities available to give away. During the dayphase, players can request one of them to give away to target player. During the nightphase, people can use the given abilities (if any). There's no restriction to how many a player can receive or use. With each death, the top ability becomes unavailable (so for example, with 5 players left, there's only the secret santa investigator, the tracker, and 3 fruit vendors). I'm still considering the actual available abilities, and the order in which they disappear.

I'd also appreciate links to similar games.

[Sméagol]

so for the first one, am i right in assuming that the rules you make are before you even get a role?

Because in that case just make a bunch of your own rules, there's no real point (Also Rule investigator would be a named townie that can call you an asshole for a rule.)

No point.. except for

fun

? Maybe? Also, I forgot to clarify that the rules disappear with the death of the corresponding player.

For Secret Santa, can mafia request the abilities as well?

Because it seems wise to send your fellow mafia a Roleblocker, and there are also likely to be multiple cops N1 which is probably way too strong (possibly make it a 2 shot cop with one investigation that will be sane and one that will be insane, to make the game not just instantly broken by giving the person below you on the list a Cop ability and having them also investigate said person below you.)

Secret Santa needs some more work, as I was thinking of other issues after posting, but:
Yes, Mafia may request abilities like everyone else. But maybe I wasn't clear, but there's only one of each ability available. Somewhere in the gamethread I'd post and update the list of available abilities, and I'll ask players to request something else if their request has already been taken.
As it is now, the cop ability is only available to one player, and only before the first death, so it's most likely not available at all assuming there's a day 1 lynch. That's one of the issues I'll have to think about. So hardly way too strong.
And of course the roleblocker will be interesting to the mafia, but they'll have to be the first to request it. And the secret santa investigator poses a risk to this strategy.

But one of the things I was thinking, is to make it more like an actual secret santa, with randomly distributing the secret santa's myself at the start of the dayphase, so everyone only has one secret santa (but on the other hand is guaranteed to have one). This would make the fruit vendors somewhat more useful, as at the moment they merely serve as indicators that I don't want any actual useful abilities when it's down to 3 players.

edit:

Oh and I don't know why I call everything 1-shot.. I forgot to clarify everything

has

to be used on the night you get it, or you forgo the option to use it. You can't "save up" abilities.

[Sméagol]

Then that would make the Rule investigator even worse, because the rules can't be linked to an alignment, and you just become a reason to policy lynch people depending on their rules, which would then make it more likely for people to make the rules more tame.

I still expect players, or well, townies, to try to lynch the players they think are mafia. It's subtle, but the rule investigator can try to search for links between who's trying to enforce the custom rules. Most likely, they'll enforce their own rules, as that's what they're most familiar with. Combined with the fact that it's mostly the mafia who'd want to make use of the modkills.. That said, I could make it somewhat less subtle by having players only be able to enforce their own custom rule. Although I hadn't considered yet whether I should let players point out custom rule infractions publicly or privately. With this addition, it should only be privately. The warning given should also specify which rule they have broken, which I was already planning to do anyway, as warnings also disappear when the corresponding rule disappears (when the corresponding player dies).

So wait, you can't have the ability given out during the day and have it useable on that night considering they were alive that day because of a lynch?

Then what would be the interaction with someone dying that night, would that disable the cop before it works?

Like I said, I haven't considered what happens when someone gets lynched, I'll have to work that out first, although making the top ability disappear after 2 deaths is the easiest. But as it stand now:
Abilities

are

given out during the dayphase. or rather, at the start of the nightphase. Players develop reads, and base their requests upon them during the dayphase. Players get their ability at the start of the nightphase, and have 48 hours to decide what to do with it. Players get the ability regardless of the status of the secret santa, again, the only problem is that the cop ability disappears after 1 death. And to more easily show the easiest solution I propose:

[1] 1-shot cop

// disappears after 2 deaths

[2] 1-shot doctor

// disappears after 3 deaths

[3] 1-shot follower

// disappears after 4 deaths

[4] 1-shot roleblocker

// disappears after 5 deaths

[5] 1-shot secret santa investigator

// disappears after 6 deaths

[6] 1-shot 1-shot tracker

// disappears after 7 deaths

[7] 1-shot fruit vendor
[8] 1-shot fruit vendor
[8] 1-shot fruit vendor

Though I do not want a tracker available when it's down to 3 players, so one of the abilities has got to go. I'm inclined to get rid of the follower in that case. Current proposal below.

And logistically you could probably just all agree to give all the abilities to the most townie person, except the doctor, give that to someone else, and have the doctor protect the person who got all the other abilities (So in other words, A gives Doctor away to B, everyone else gives Abilities to A) possibly also giving the Santa investigator to someone if someone gives the doctor to the person with all the abilities because they are basically confirmed to be scum most likely.

That's a valid point however, and something I'd want to avoid. Maybe I can come up with something else, but this actually makes me lean towards me randomly distributing secret santas myself. Though how likely is it that town can agree on who the "most townie" person is?

Anyway, with the changes:

[1] cop

// disappears after 2 deaths

[2] doctor

// disappears after

4

deaths

[3] roleblocker

// disappears after 4 deaths

[4] secret santa investigator

// disappears after

6

deaths

[5] tracker

// disappears after 6 deaths

[6] fruit vendor

// disappears after 6 deaths

[7] fruit vendor

// disappears after 6 deaths

[8] fruit vendor

// disappears after 6 deaths

[9] fruit vendor

// disappears after 6 deaths

Secret santas are randomly distributed by

me

at the start of every dayphase. Every player gets a random other player's name, and it's up to them what they want to give him or her. Not sure what to do about players missing the deadline, but I'm inclined to simply not give their assigned player anything. Players receive their abilities at the start of the nightphase, and have the whole nightphase to decide on a target. Then the cycle repeats the following day-night cycle.

edit:

On the other hand, I also have to take into account the possibility of a kill failing.. So maybe I'll revert back to the old system of abilties disappearing.

[Sméagol]

I try to avoid situations where players have to keep secrets from each other. As a mod, I wouldn't be happy about 2 private topics where one player can't tell the other who his secret teammate is.

[Sméagol]

Without thinking of the actual balance, some ways around this problem:
Lose the private topics altogether. No communication between the mafia teammates, the boss knows who both goons are, the goons know only who the boss is. Though you have to think of a method of determining who's doing the mafia kill.
Actually, the other idea I had doesn't work, so never mind.

Any particular reason why the day cop is a

day

cop?

[Sméagol]

Not a fan of the hired gun you just added.. I would lose the private topics like I already suggested, but keep everything else as it was, and let the mafia keep their factional kill. Instead, I'd suggest simply have the boss decide all the kills when he's alive, and also have him decide which of the 2 goons is the first in line to succeed him.

[Sméagol]

Love Triangle Mafia

12 vanilla town
3 mafia goons
___________________________________________________________

The players will be (randomly) divided in groups of 3.
If one of the players in a certain group is lynched, the whole group dies.
Nightkills will just kill an individual player rather than the whole group.
Town wins if all scum are dead.
Mafia wins if all groups left contain at least one of them.
Up to discussion: Whether or not the lover groups should have PT or not.

I want to see how players would work here.

One mafia in each group? How do you determine who is the one who will set off the group kill? Will they be aware of that fact?

War of Words

1-shot Cop
1-shot Tracker
1-shot Watcher
1-shot Follower
1-shot Motion Detector
1-shot Voyeur
3 Vanillas
Two players are randomly selected to be scum.

Scum are fucked if they both draw vanilla.

[Sméagol]

Is there an equivalent thread for closed set-ups? Or something similar to the theme test market, but then for mechanics rather than flavour.
I think a thread for discussing mechanics that won't be used in open set-ups could be useful. At the moment, for example, I'd like to know if an informed majority vs an informed minority has been done before. Lynch mechanics are obviously removed, and the mafia would be a lot stronger than town. I had some rudimentary ideas about it, and was wondering if there already have been games like that.

[Sméagol]

I played a game with severe post-restrictions for everyone off-site. It wasn't succesful, it was very hard to achieve any form of discussion. If you want to have a chance of getting it to work, you'll need more power roles, and shorter dayphases I think (in other words focus on night actions).. Might be more suited for the Blitz queue if it returns.

[Sméagol]

Is there an equivalent thread for closed set-ups? Or something similar to the theme test market, but then for mechanics rather than flavour.
I think a thread for discussing mechanics that won't be used in open set-ups could be useful. At the moment, for example, I'd like to know if an informed majority vs an informed minority has been done before. Lynch mechanics are obviously removed, and the mafia would be a lot stronger than town. I had some rudimentary ideas about it, and was wondering if there already have been games like that.

If we talked openly they wouldn't be closed.

You can still talk about specific mechanics without disclosing the complete set-up (like the role distribution). I guess I can do that here as well, but I was wondering if there was amore appropriate place.

[Sméagol]

I've already mentioned the theme test market thread, which deals with flavour.. That's not what I'm talking about. And I was talking about discussing mechanics in general, long before I'd need a reviewer. But like I said, I guess I can discuss them here.

To go back to my original example: have there been games with an informed minority vs an informed majority? I'm looking for inspiration.

[Sméagol]

No I mean a game with a town and a mafia, and town knows exactly who the mafia are.

A game that would have to focus on night actions, as the lynch mechanic would have to be removed.

[Sméagol]

The mafia should never claim.
The town public cop should probably only claim when he has a confirmed guilty, which is when there are 2 mafia results.
Xyzzy's intention is for the mafia to potentially thwart the cop by going for mixed results. In order to do that, they have to guess who is the likely (town) cop target. If you have a mixed result the town cop isn't sure whether it's his target who's mafia. You can discuss it, but then the town cop will be killed.
So it's basically a cop with a disadvantage.

[Sméagol]

Actually my first thought was that mafia should only reveal townies.. Then I forgot why and invented an argument why it worked.. You're right.
So basically this role only amounts to a few confirmed townies at most.

[Sméagol]

I think town needs more power, but more importantly;

Whether the peacemaker wins is more based on luck then anything else. It's dependent on other players not in his faction. I'm not a player, but to me this doesn't seem like it's fun to play with. Even if it does win, I suspect it would feel like a cop-out to

everyone

, including the peacemaker, if the game ends that way.

[Sméagol]

Why luck?

It's dependent on other players not in his faction.

There's only so much a peacemaker can do to prevent deaths with the abilities you've given him (i.e. very little). Like Postie points out, it also makes the peacemaker very obvious. Since both town and mafia don't want him to win, it's the number one lynch target. Being a peacemaker sucks.