Mini 742 Monopoly Mafia - Game Over!

[Nightfall]

<b>Vote:charter</b>
Reason: See above post...

[Nightfall]

Vote:charter

*grumbles*

[Nightfall]

That's 3 votes for Braeden... I think that's the quickest three votes I've seen in a game before... Is there something outside this game affecting this? O_O'

[Nightfall]

Pacman you may want to bold your vote if it is genuine

I'm in the grey area on name claiming. It could just as easily out likely power roles for scum to find.

[Nightfall]

What is this? Clique mafia? Why not answer what caused the first bandwagon?

[Nightfall]

unvote, vote:Gamma

WTH are you talking about?

[Nightfall]

Your vote isn't a random bandwagon. You joined this one with a reason...

Lynch all liars?

j/k

[Nightfall]

Charter if I was trying to fit in with the town the way it's been acting I would be joining random bandwagons with no backing. And I have actually said more than you have in my posts simply by stating how your random bandwagons are stupid. All you have been doing is bandwagon jumping without reason.

[Nightfall]

You want me to show evidence where claiming names leads to catching scum? Or do you want to just assume everything I do is scummy?

Charter, can you please explain what you just said here?
Reword it maybe? The way I read it you could be saying two different things.

[Nightfall]

Charter > You can see though how a name claim could also possibly hurt the town right?

[Nightfall]

Ok. Well I'm still on record thinking that (at this point at least) there would be too many possible fake claims for scum and that it would be (I would think) easier to spot pro town power roles with a name claim.

So for thos reasons I'm still against it.

[The reason I asked was because the way I read it you seemed to contradict yourself a little]

[Nightfall]

At the same time those same people that you could peg as scum for thinking one way could just as easily be townies no?

Meanwhile we would have given the scum a list of all the different role names in the game.

I agree that in certain games it can be invaluable, ie. I was in a horror movie mafia game where we all name claimed a few days in and because of that we were able to break the game and figure out that all of the protown roles were classic horror characters like Jason Michael, Freddy, Dracula, while the scum were the new age horror characters from the Grudge, Scream, and I forget what else.

If we had name claimed earlier in that game though the results could have been very different.

[Nightfall]

Yes Charter, it is

possible

to tell the difference and catch scum proposing theories. But it is just as possible that we could label innocents as scum, and at the same time out who would likely be a power role.

I'm pretty sure we see what the other is saying, but we're just on opposite sides of the fence when it comes to whether it would help the town or hurt it in this game.

[Nightfall]

notmoral?

[Nightfall]

<Pure what if>
Say our scum happened to be railroads, and the rest of the town are locations. There are enough locations that scum could likely fake name claims and if some one claimed Boardwalk they would be a big target for the scum if scum were to make the assumption that the highest valued properties are the stronger roles (Rightfully or wrongfully).

I just don't see this as the game to name claim in, not at this point at least.

[Nightfall]

NOTE:

(I will be away for three days in the coming week as my family and I are visiting my grandmother - Right now it looks like I will be away Monday morning to Wednesday evening but that can change - Sorry if this causes any problems.)

[Nightfall]

~ Nightfall has returned and is catching up - please be patient ~

[Nightfall]

Nightfall is definately scum, he has still not added anything to this game.

Excuse me... I was one of the very first people to argue against your idea of mass name claiming and have continued to debate that issue with you as you haven't seemed to want to give it up... What else have you contributed?

On that topic what has Gamma done this game?
He's been acting like a sheep and lurking in plain site.
Yet you (Charter) decide to point out that I haven't contributed anything?
this looks a lot more like a payback FOS type of thing more than anything to me.

Also I really don't like how you claimed power role while "thinking" you were lynched. For all we know you knew darn well you weren't lynched. And on top of that you proceed to question and apply pressure to Jebus for unvoting you after you claimed power role and were L-1? Why wouldn't he unvote you and allow some discussion?

I still get a scum vibe from you Charter but I'd rather we try and learn more about people before we make today's lynch decision.

P.s. Gamma is looking more like scum to me, while I believe Jebus took the appropriate actions after Charter's semi claim and is looking more pro town to me.

[Nightfall]

1. when have i been acting like a sheep?
2. active lurking can be applied to you. don't accuse me of not being up to your activity standards, I have a life.
3. you're only saying this because charter called you out on it. So fuck this shit. I'm not listening to it at all.

vote nightfall

1. Early on you voted for yawetag who was the main person arguing against Charter. You also criticized yawetag for not answering questions when Charter wasn't answering his. It really looked like you were trying to help out a scum buddy by jumping on criticizing Yawetag and then promoting others to vote for him.
2. My activity standards? I post a fair bit so now you're saying I don't have a life?
3. I'm saying this because I'm interested in why Charter insisted I wasn't contributing and actively lurking while you would be a better choice if those were his real reasons for pointing towards someone as acting scummy. His FOS on me is pure omgus.

Calm down Gamma and stop mouthing off just because I pointed out that you've posted less. It's a game. I think Charter over looked you and mentioned me as a suspect because I unlike you went against his opinions.

[Nightfall]

Nightfall is definately scum, he has still not added anything to this game.

Excuse me... I was one of the very first people to argue against your idea of mass name claiming and have continued to debate that issue with you as you haven't seemed to want to give it up... What else have you contributed?

1

Given opinions on quite a few people. You haven't.

And on top of that you proceed to question and apply pressure to Jebus for unvoting you after you claimed power role and were L-1? Why wouldn't he unvote you and allow some discussion?

2

He thought it was a good idea to put me at L-1 once. The only thing I can see that has stopped him from doing it again was people reacted adversely to it the first time.

I still get a scum vibe from you Charter but I'd rather we try and learn more about people before we make today's lynch decision.

3

This is just in here for the town's benefit. You're not trying to learn anything about anyone. I see no questions except to those that attack you.

Calm down Gamma and stop mouthing off just because I pointed out that you've posted less. It's a game. I think Charter over looked you and mentioned me as a suspect because I unlike you went against his opinions.

4

No. Try again. I picked you because in your role PM you got a scum role.

1. You have given opinions on more people because you have been in arguments with more people and having to defend your viewpoints. I have commented on how I didn't like you and others creating pointless bandwagons earlier in the game. After that I debated with you the positives and negatives of name claiming at this point in this game.
At that point I wasn't noticing any great changes in who seemed town like
or scum like. When Jebus started to look more town like I commented on that, and when Gamma looked even more scum like than earlier on commented on that.

2. That is one way of reading it. But didn't you also "reveal" that you were a "power role" during that period of time? I saw/see Jebus not revoting you as a cautious move from a townie not sure whether you really are a power role or scum faking a claim in "supposed" twilight.

3. I'm sorry if I post things that are "only for the towns benefit"... I'm sorry I'm not doing more to help scum... You say that you see no questions except those that attack me? did you mean to say that you only see questions from me directed towards people that attack me? Yawetag and myself were the two to start questioning your and other bandwagoners actions at the start, long before anyone started "attacking" me. As for "attacking" me, you have said that you think I am scum and Gamma has voted me giving no evidence except a little swear word rant.
Both of you I expressed my thoughts on before you started "attacking" me. My comment was made to also say that if anyone else feels the need to comment on someones scummyness, I'd be interested in hearing about it.

4. So your power is to incorrectly see other peoples' role pm's?
great power role there... If there is something in the game that makes you think I am scum or even less townlike besides me disagreeing with your idea of nameclaiming then please let me know, because right now everything you say to me really reads like a pissed off scum whose angry that someone didn't follow his lead.

[Nightfall]

Two questions Charter.

Why did you speak down about Jebus' actions earlier but not include him on your "scum list"?

before you are lynch / If you're lynched, Could you give a reason why you think the people you listed are scum?

[Nightfall]

Fos: Gamma

j/k ... somewhat...
I saw him as scummy day one, but the hammer wasn't overly scummy.
Charter was pretty much asking for it by the end.
I likely would have voted him eventually myself.

[Nightfall]

This is my first game with him (I think), I'm still trying to figure out his playstyle.
He acted really scummy in my eyes. Maybe seeing if anyone would follow along
or not react? but then he didn't favour many people that didn't share his views...

[Nightfall]

I tried to make a list of what roles could be assigned to certain properties in this game. I would also assume that this could be a breaker in the game if everyone name claimed.

Grimmy, are you proposing we name claim?
I'm getting deja vu here...

[Nightfall]

I don't see how three people voting the same person is "random."

Okay, call it

jokevoting

, if that makes more sense.

I have to agree with Yawetag here, just as I did earlier, although it may
have started out as

jokevoting

, the votes together formed a very
real band wagon that could easily have become our first "major wagon"
for no other reason than a larger than normal number of

jokevotes

were placed on a player.

[Nightfall]

Even if this was the case, as the bandwagon approached L-1 any townies would have unvoted because their non-serious bandwagon was unjustifiable.

The thing with band wagons is that they can get out of hand, and sometimes someone having more votes can give off the impression
of being more scummy. I've been in numerous games where innocent
townies have been lynched on not so serious band wagons. I'm not
sure how experienced all of our players are here, but it is possible that
in a l-1 situation a townie might place a hammer without "much" of a case
simply because everyone else was voting for him/her so they must be
scummy.

[Nightfall]

When I get a chance I'll look over some past games and see if I can find something.
I'm sure it must have happened in mafia history though.
<For the record I think we should remember though that we aren't certain yet that they were just joke votes>

[Nightfall]

Don't worry Grimmy, I got it

Post 43 - Random (?) vote on gamma, reason that 'yawetag is obv noobtown'
Post 53 - Defends his vote by saying noobs don't play solely in noob games. This is where 43 starts to look scummy.

what

Jebus please clarify

Clarify what?

[Nightfall]

:/
No, but I think what he wrote is pretty straight forward.

[Nightfall]

Oh hi Nightfall, how's the citation hunt coming along?

I'm sorry, there's a lot of games that I have been in that I'm trying to look over in a short period of time. I haven't found a specific example yet where a "joke vote bandwagon" has ended in a lynch, but that doesn't mean that it hasn't happened.

Just to point out too, of course now in the current situation most people on the "joke wagon" would post it was a joke, but if it built to a lynch people could claim it was a gut motivated vote or something like that.

I know I've seen games where there have been people lynched way too quickly though, and you can't be too cautious when it comes to avoiding situations where townies could do stupid things to harm the town.

[Nightfall]

Oh hi Nightfall, how's the citation hunt coming along?

In the house of mirriors game I'm in we're at l-3 because Zwet posted a
lot of shocked emoticons...

-site removed- First Warning.-SSK

[Nightfall]

This game seems to be going by really slow. time for some more analysis!

I'm looking for games to back up my point...
It takes a while to read through multiple games...

[Nightfall]

You said

I've been in numerous games where innocent
townies have been lynched on not so serious band wagons.

so I would like you to cite the thread(s) which address this claim, if you please.

I have been unable to find games to back up my claim.
But I stand by what I said. I know I've seen innocents
lynched for stupid reasons. There's a (likely) chance it
wouldn't have happened here, but it

could have

and that's why I didn't like the "joke" bandwagoning.
The wagon also appeared really clique like, almost like
a lynch on site metagaming thing which didn't sit right with me.

[Nightfall]

Spolium you've been here around 5 months?
I've been here around 4 years... I'm sorry I can't recall what one or two of my many games X event happened in. I thought with the talks of the game stalling I would come back and try and contribute more to the actual game at hand, but if you really want me to, I will gladly take the time to continue looking through past games to find you a suitable example.

As for day one I put my vote where I thought it best fit.
I was debating with Charter on the merits of name claiming
How was I taking pot shots at him anyway? If anyone was
taking pot shots at someone in that exchange it was him towards me.

[Nightfall]

IMO this is suspicious because you were implying that ywaeatagag was right to be concerned about a random phase bandwagon, which naturally directs suspicion towards those that were on the bandwagon (apart from charter, obviously).

I think players should be concerned about bandwagons in any phase let alone the random phase. In our case the early "Joke wagon" appeared to be the product of some metagaming between Charter and the others involved. If so that would have been a negative for the town as the players would have been letting outside factors affect this game.
And even in your time here, I'm sure that you must have seen a few
players that are a little too loose with their voting, no? I haven't played with many people in this game before/recently, but I do know that I have played with some people who have simply joined wagons because it was the "thing to do", and I've been in games where people meaning to add to a wagon actually place a hammer (This just happened a few days ago in another on going game of mine). I didn't want to see any bandwagons form without some actual merit behind them.

[Nightfall]

And just for the record, it was Yawetag that first commented on the dislike of "random bandwagons", and "mass-voting".
Your post (276) made it sound like I was leading him on, when really I was agreeing with him.

[Nightfall]

Spolium you've been here around 5 months?
I've been here around 4 years... I'm sorry I can't recall what one or two of my many games X event happened in. I thought with the talks of the game stalling I would come back and try and contribute more to the actual game at hand, but if you really want me to, I will gladly take the time to continue looking through past games to find you a suitable example.

Appeal to Authority=BAD.
Dismiss the game=BAD.

Mild FoS: nightfall

I wasn't trying to say that I have anytype of authority here.
My point about being here for years is that it's hard to keep track of what happened when/in what games. And yes I'm aware that dismissing this game would be bad, the "if you want" part was kind of a sarcastic way at saying that... I guess I failed there...

But that doesn't really address the main reason behind my vote, does it?

As I said before, my concern lies in the awkward shift from "

I've been in numerous games where random bandwagons led to lynches

" to "

well, it must've happened at SOME point in Mafia history

" to "

it's probably happened at some point, possibly not on this site

".

Since that you've shifted again, to "

I've been playing here for 4 years, I can't remember

the one or two games

in which event X happened

". Am I to take this as acknowledgement of a insignificantly low statistical probability of a random bandwagon spiraling out of control? You have, after all, been here for 4 years - presumably you've played many games on and off this site?

In 279 you seem to have dropped the idea of basing it on experience altogether, rationalising that because some players are "loose with their voting" or prone to joining wagons with gay abandon (or because people can mistakenly place hammers) we should be wary. I won't deny that these points are reasonable, but they're somewhat removed from your original arguments in 227 and 228, namely:

the votes together formed a very real band wagon that could easily have become our first "major wagon" for no other reason than a larger than normal number of jokevotes were placed on a player.

I've been in numerous games where innocent townies have been lynched on not so serious band wagons. [..] I'm not
sure how experienced all of our players are here, but it is possible that in a l-1 situation a townie might place a hammer without "much" of a case simply because everyone else was voting for him/her

This just seems off to me.

And just for the record, it was Yawetag that first commented on the dislike of "random bandwagons", and "mass-voting".
Your post (276) made it sound like I was leading him on, when really I was agreeing with him.

In what sense did I make it sound like you were leading him on?

Sorry if I don't hit on everything your asking. There's a lot and I'm trying to get it all

I actually dont see an awkward shift in my responses. I claimed that I have been in games where joke wagons / wagons of little content have gotten out of control / innocents have been lynched, and I stand by that claim.

My comment of "When I get a chance I'll look over some past games and see if I can find something. I'm sure it must have happened in mafia history though. " came after you asked for me to provide an example and I think that you have been reading too much into it. At the time I knew it could take a while to go through past games to find an example so I made that comment to essentially say that yes I will look for an example for you, but even if it takes me a while to find you one, don’t write off what I am saying because I’m sure it must have happened at some point.

And I'm pretty sure that I never said...

"

it's probably happened at some point, possibly not on this site

".

I will agree with your point that there is a low statistical probability of a random bandwagon spiraling out of control. My point was that it can/does happen once in a while and that is why I made the comments that I did.
Three of the first six votes in this game were for the same player, with no real reason given. If someone was to scan the posts to that point, which I think Yaw might have done when he requested a vote count on post 14, that person may accidentally also count EMP's double post as a vote too. I believe that I took the apropriate response to that happening and asked if there was somesort of metagaming going on with those involved. If you go back and read the thread, you'll see that more members then myself were concerned. Yaw and Pac both questioned the actions of the wagoners and voted for them too.

As for your comments on my post 279 I don't see how I've "dropped" any ideas. My point has always been that bandwagons can lead to quick votes, and quick lynches which is why we shouldn't let a "joke" one get too big. Please keep in mind a fair few players thought a hammer was made on page 5 in day one in this game... I think that alone shows how loosely people were keeping track of where votes were placed.

As for

In what sense did I make it sound like you were leading him on?

[/quote]

Is that not one way the following could be taken?

IMO this is suspicious because you were implying that ywaeatagag was right to be concerned about a random phase bandwagon, which naturally directs suspicion towards those that were on the bandwagon (apart from charter, obviously).

To me it looked like you were saying that I was adding fuel to Yaw's fires of suspicion. And again, when 3 of the first 6 votes in a game (4 of 7 if you accidently count EMP's double post) are for the same person, I think there certainly is a reason to be worried or atleast question those on the wagon, which is what Yaw, myself, and others did.


I hope that covers everything. And while I'm sure you will have something to say back to me, which I in turn will be happy to answer could I request that we also hear some more from our other players?
Maybe some prods?
I personally would like to hear from Gamma's replacement.

[Nightfall]

My post(s) looked like I was bragging? O_O

[Nightfall]

RE: Spolium's Post 293


1 . Concise might be good

2. I don’t know what I can say here. I can say that you are reading too much into it, but you’re going to feal how you feal about it regardless of what I say.

3. I meant this game. As (although I can’t cite a game) I still stand by that it happens at times.

4. “Numerous votes on the first page with no reason provided” AND ON THE SAME PERSON. That’s why I brought up the question about metagaming.

5. I agree with Yaw here. The 3 man wagon was a lot scummier than Yaw’s refusal to answer Charter’s question, especially since Charter was refusing to answer his. Gamma even gave Yaw flak for asking Charter to answer his question first. That’s where I think the suspicion should go. Gamma’s character. And now Gamma's replacement… who btw could we maybe get a prod on?

MOD?

6. The fact remains that multiple players weren’t keeping track of where votes were, and that could have led to unwanted results.

7. I’ll say again, when 3 of the first 6 votes in a game (4 of 7 if you accidentally count EMP's double post) are for the same person, I think there certainly is a reason to be worried or at least question those on the wagon. Yaw did the right thing in my book and I’m sticking by that opinion 100%

8. Are you expecting me to act like a jerk or something because you think I’m scum? I’m not sure how to take your comment…

[Nightfall]

My issues with the wagon were that
1. By the time the 6th vote was cast, 50% of the votes were on one player
2. None of the players voting that player gave a (serious) reason for their vote
3. When questioned about their votes those users would become confrontational and attack players that questioned their vote. Yaw and I both received negative comments from the members on the wagon.
4. They refused to comment on whether their votes were for in game reasons or because of meta gaming.
5. They seemed to stick together a bit to closely in their defense of each other and suspicion of other players.
6. 3 votes while yes L-4 is still a ways from being lynched, someone could wrongly read something into that if they aren't that experienced. Even I admit at one point or another I was thinking maybe one of them is such and such role, or two of them are maybe this role and that's why they're voting without sharing much info as to their reason.



Please note that I was against the speed at which this "random" wagon took shape.
I asked if metagaming was involved and along with Yaw who questioned the wagon received attack like replies. The wagoners seemed like a cozy little bunch.

Under pressure Gamma seemed to crack. Which is why he had my vote for day 1.

1. when have i been acting like a sheep?
2. active lurking can be applied to you. don't accuse me of not being up to your activity standards, I have a life.
3. you're only saying this because charter called you out on it. So fuck this shit. I'm not listening to it at all.

vote nightfall

[Nightfall]

spolium what could nightfall gain from saying what he said?

Well, he was supporting yawtaeg's stance that the bandwagon in the random phase was "not so random", so the implication of this is that those who were part of said bandwagon are suspicious. Were he scum and

not

on the wagon, the benefits of this stance would be obvious.

OR I am town and was
A) Not wanting some metagaming plan (ie. lynch player x on sight) to effect this game.
B) Concerned that 3 of the first 6 votes were placed on the same player in what is the dubbed the "Random" stage.

[Nightfall]

Didn't he just say that?

because there are so many options to place a random vote, it seems suspicios that people would pile them on to one person so early in the game.

[Nightfall]

Declaring suspicion of a bandwagon in the random phase is as impotent as declaring suspicion of a single vote in the random phase. What difference does it make whether a bunch of non-serious votes with no explicit justification are placed on various people, or a single person?

Whose to say they weren't / aren't serious?

Hey, maybe now it's suspicious if one person switches their vote several times in the random phase, or when two people vote for each other in the random phase.

Yeah... because that's the same thing...

Sorry, I don't buy this. It's a pretty lame argument and I'm suspicious of those making it, for aforementioned reasons.

Well good for you. We've established now that we disagree...

Why are we debating this again and letting people get away with lurking?

Vote: ooba

I still want to hear from him.

[Nightfall]

*groan*
I'm keeping my Vote on ooba for now.

[Nightfall]

Ooba is Gamma's replacement.
That's why I am voting him.
I thought Gamma was scum day one,
and I want to hear from his replacement.

[Nightfall]

Would you like me to continue debating the issue?
I stand by my posts, and I'll continue debating if you'd like but I thought it best that we hear more from other players as Spol and I have been pretty much dominating the thread in the last while.

[Nightfall]

and I tend to trust replacements,

Are you pushing that as a positive trait?

[Nightfall]

Spolium In the games that you've been in (lets say on this site for simplicity reasons) how do you usually get out of the random voting stage?

From my read on Nightfall, he hasn't been very pro-town at all, and has contributed little.

Ouch
I went after people I thought were scummy and then defended my reasons for thinking they were scummy. I'm not sure what else I could have done...

[Nightfall]

and i gave reasons for voting nightfall thank you very much,

To be honest Alabaska I thought you're vote was more of a joke vote on me. And the only reason I know of that you're voting me is the one Zilla quoted below -> to spur "things" (which I took to have meant conversation but maybe I was wrong...)

vote: Nightfall

that should spur things a bit i think

This is your reason?

FOS Alabaska

[Nightfall]

Sorry, just re-read 337-340 where you explained your thoughts further, but to me both of your entries in that block of posts sound like you're trying to come up with an excuse to keep your vote on me.

[Nightfall]

Today, I googled Officer Edgar Mallory, and I am apparantly an idiot, because officer edgar mallory is apparantly the name of the GO TO JAIL guy on the monopoly board. FML.

unvote

.
URGH.

I was just going to post this.
But I don't think that really clears Ala even if his claim is true.
When I read his claim I thought two WIFOM things.

1 - Aren't roleblockers more often scum roles then town roles?
(In my experience I believe this is true but for others it might differ.)

2 - In the game of Monopoly you want to buy up properties and "get out of jail" free or otherwise. In the game the cop sends you to jail, a usually negative outcome to a card or a die roll. Would Edgar more likely be scum in this game then?

I don't think this is enough for a vote, but I will add my name to the list of people giving ALa an

FOS: Ala

*Not saying it isn't a possibility but I would find it odd if our get out of jail free card and our jailer were on the same team.

[Nightfall]

Is anyone replacing Ooba?

[Nightfall]

Maybe now that it's the weekend Jebus will be up for posting something.

My top 3 likely scum in order of scummyness:
Ala - The jailer and Get out of jail free just don't blend with me.
Ooba/Gamma - I'd like the hear from one of them or a replacement.
Jebus - Not because he's done anything really scummy lately, but more because others have been seeming pro-town. I'm curious how he responds to Ala's above post though...

[Nightfall]

*Would like to hear from Jebus and Pacman but so far Ala still looks scummy to me*

[Nightfall]

Jebus was going away for a while. I think that had more to do with why he placed his vote somewhere than what point in the day phase it was.

[Nightfall]

Zilla, I think this might be what Grimmy is talking about.

im keeping my FOS.

why would he have the character name, and not just the name of the card like the rest of us?

(im counting me and the people who died in that tally)

i think he stretched a bit too far in this fake claim

Grimmy

[Nightfall]

So currently, the flavour checks out for me, and I don't really think it could hurt to keep Alabaska around for a little bit, I just don't think Alabaska is the lynch for today.

...................

Here's my scumlist, in order of scum (top) to town (bottom)
Alabaska J
ac1983fan
Grimmy
Nightfall
pacman281292
Braeden
ooba
Zilla

...................

unvote, Vote: ac1983fan

Jebus, how do you figure the flavour works as we have a dead pro-town get out of jail free card?

Also, if Ala is at the top of your most likely scum list,
you've made multiple points against him,
and he claims to be a roleblocker (if he is scum that's a scum roleblocker).
...Why are you of the mindset that "(you) don't really think it could hurt to keep Alabaska around for a little bit,"

I'm close to adding my vote to Ala, and your last post seems
a little to me like one trying to help out an in trouble scum partner.
Could you explain why you think we should keep Ala around?

[Nightfall]

Darn simulposting lol

[Nightfall]

VOTE: Alabaska
FOS: Jebus

I'm of the mindset that they are both scum and that Jebus is trying to pull Ala out from the fire. I'd vote both but if their both scum, I'd rather take out the roleblocker.
The get out of jail free and the jailer being on the same team also doesn't make sense to me.

As for having Alabaska at the top of my scumlist but not voting him, I really don't have much more than some scum vibes for anyone I found scummy. I've yet to see anything excessively scummy out of anyone still playing.

Those scum vibes are strong enough for you to vote AC though?

[Nightfall]

Whoever it is I say let them in. We need people.
I'm off site for a day and we've lost yet another player...

@Fonz

1&2.
"Did you expect the first or second players to give serious reasons for their votes?"
I would expect them to answer my questioning about metagaming instead of acting really scummy and clique like.

3.
"Well, I tend to think that overreacting to RVS bandwagons that aren't actually in danger of lynching anyone are something of a scumtell. "
We seem to have differing definitions of overreacting...
Charter, Gamma, Jebus, and EMP (to a degree) seemed to be acting on some sort
of out of game metagame rule. They seemed to act as a clique. When they were
questioned they seemed to reply with snappy comebacks instead of addressing
other players concerns.

[Nightfall]

Nite, I'm not sure I'm picking up what you're laying down there. It's alright if you thought that, but I didn't get that feeling from that group. Further, even if that was the case, it appears not to be a scumtell judging by two of the people there being dead townies.

I was responding to Fonz, explaining how I felt at the time the votes were placed, and how (in my eyes and others) those players acted scummy.

[Nightfall]

vote: relax the punishment on ongoing game discussion being a modkillable offense

2nd that vote.

[Nightfall]

We're getting some good replacements now, and I like that.

Yeah you'll be lucky if half the players don't quit...

Half the players have quit

It's good to have you here now though DGB. Welcome to the game.

[Nightfall]

[quote="Alabaska J"My case on nightfall was never that great, but i disliked the way he dropped the argument. it seemed like spolium had kind of gotten a one up on him, and suddenly he agrees that the discussion is pointless? doesn't sit well with me. [/quote]

How do you figure Spolium got one up on me?
I "paused" discussions with him because I wanted to hear more of a discussion from other players, and because we had gone on for so long already that it didn't seem like future discussion would change either of our opinions.

[Nightfall]

EBWOP

[quote="Alabaska"JMy case on nightfall was never that great, but i disliked the way he dropped the argument. it seemed like spolium had kind of gotten a one up on him, and suddenly he agrees that the discussion is pointless? doesn't sit well with me.

How do you figure Spolium got one up on me?
I "paused" discussions with him because I wanted to hear more of a discussion from other players, and because we had gone on for so long already that it didn't seem like future discussion would change either of our opinions.[/quote]

[Nightfall]

Ala - From personal experience I know that bandwagons, even ones based on nothing can fill up pretty quickly and end in an unwanted lynch. I fully admitted that I wasn't able to find an example when looking back through my most recent games (I did in fact find something in an on going game but because of the rules that was discarded)

I stand by my claim that I've seen it happen multiple times before, I just could not locate an example of it in my recent games. I'm actually rather shocked that there weren't more people in the game that shared my thoughts, as I had thought for sure everyone must have been in some game where someone wasn't paying attention to the vote count and lynched someone (supposedly) without meaning to.

Didn't we at some point in this game "think" that someone was lynched when they really weren't because someone miss-counted the votes? It's the same kind of thing only in reverse.

[Nightfall]

either lynch me for a complete bullshit reason or drop it.

Sounds like a challenge to me.

unvote, Vote: Charter

And an FoS to Yawetag, suggesting something that people turn out to not like is not a scumtell, it was the non-existent rolefishing that would be the scumtell. In this case, it was just an idea that may or may not have been thought through. So dependent tell at best.

Congratulations, you guys just lynched a power role.

what the fuck, we lynched him?

5 pages in?

That or i wasn't paying attention to the votecount.

5 pages in, no less.

You guys are all fucking idiots.

What the hell?

FoMFS Pacman and Jebus, assuming charter flips town.

I recounted, we're only at six votes on charter

unvote

just in case we're L-1, anyway.

Recounting...

I would have thought that this would have shown my point how little people keep track of votes sometimes. Multiple people thought we had a lynch on page 5 without bothering to check the votecount to be sure.

[Nightfall]

I don't see CTD's case on The Fonz, and Fonz's responses are making me critical of CTD as well.

This is pretty close to where I stand. It seems with every exchange both
are looking a little scummier, but I feel CTD is coming out a little worse.
On top of it both the players that they replaced weren't that town like to begin with.

[Nightfall]

It's hard to tell if it's genuine though.
There are multiple people Ala, Jebus, CTD, Fonz etc that I think look scummy.
I think Ala's claim conflicting with our dead townies role is the biggest part of what's keeping my vote on him. That and the fact that he kept changing his reason for voting me earlier.

[Nightfall]

Fonz I put you down as a possibility because of a few points CTD had been making.
What CTD was saying about Pacman made pacman (and your role) more scum looking to me. At the same time I remember that CTD replaced oomba/Gamma who I believed was scummier, and CTD also seemed to be reaching a bit in his accusations towards you. As for Grimmy, While I wouldn't mind him posting some more, his posts haven't really jumped out at me as scummy. I'll go back and take another closer look though.

[Nightfall]

I think it's safe to assume that Jebus had innocent results on Zilla and myself.

Sorry but how do you figure this?

It would be my guess that he investigated Zilla and Ala getting innocents on both (notice he seemed to not want to vote for Ala?), or he investigated Zila and AC and got a guilty on AC? He was voting him for most of yesterday.

[Nightfall]

Lulz. It'd be a pretty poor SK who didn't kill until N3, no?

It's also a wifom debate. Personally as a SK, depending on the game, I would either kill every night or if I thought I could pull it off, save killing until needed and claim to be a vig.

[Nightfall]

Claim:

Free Parking (One shot - Night Immune)

It wasn't until I read the following quote a few times that I thought of something though...

Lulz. It'd be a pretty poor SK who didn't kill until N3, no?

I wasn't told one way or the other if I had been targeted a previous night or not, but on the chance Fonz is a SK it's possible I might have been one of his targets which would explain a missing kill.

[Nightfall]

And although he didn't seem really scummy to me, for being the one Jebus was voting for, I would pick AC to claim next.

[Nightfall]

Fonz, your up.

[Nightfall]

Ok... I've got a few questions now... first being (and sorry if this is common knowledge to others but,) what's a JOAT?

[Nightfall]

Just did a little reading, and are you saying that you are a jack of all trades role,
With Vig, Doc protect, and Roleblock powers?

[Nightfall]

Boardwalk as far as I know has always been a dark blue O_O
And Fonz you still didn't answer my question.
-I'll take a closer look at DGB's claim hopefully sometime tomorrow-

[Nightfall]

My thoughts on DGB's claim

DGB = Boardwalk with a hotel?
This part of DGB's claim I can believe. Braeden was against name claiming because he thought that power roles would be outed because people know the special or "infamous" spaces. Boardwalk with a hotel is a very infamous space and looking at the other roles claimed it's very reasonable to believe that scum would have targeted him if we name claimed.

Boardwalk with hotel = Tracker?
In terms of flavour I can see this being true. However, just because something would work flavour wise doesn't make things true in this game. We found that out with "get out of jail free" and the "officer" (Go to jail).

DGB = Boardwalk with hotel = Tracker = Town?
I went back and forth on this one many times. The result.... I'm not sure...

But, I am actually

leaning

more towards town.
My thought process follows:

When I read DGB's claim I thought it sounded legitimate flavour wise, I didn't go anywhere night one, and I briefly remembered how Jebus had been saying the day before that he thought it couldn't hurt to keep ala around for another day. I then went back to reread day 3. The first thing Jebus did was place his vote on ala which would lead me to think that he wanted to lynch ala. So I leaned a bit toward thinking DGB would be lying as our cop wouldn't vote an innocent after just investigating him... I then thought that Jebus was going to be away and he later did remove his vote and say that he didn't want to lynch ala, so maybe the vote was breadcrumbing who he investigated for later? But that would be a pretty risky thing to do. Next we had Jebus state that he was willing to hammer Ala. This made me think ok, there is no way he could have investigated ala. That however is when I got to the lynch&night scenes and our wild card in this situation, Grimmy the busdriver. I did a search on the wiki because I wanted to make sure I knew what the role powers were for certain (I've never been a bus driver before and have rarely had one in my games before.) Anyways, the wiki said

"The Bus Driver is a pro-town role who may choose to switch two players each night. Thus, any night choice performed on a switched player will affect the other player targeted by the Bus Driver. The Bus Driver's night choices are only valid for that same night. "

This made me think that ok, there is a chance that Jebus was Grimmy's target night 2, and DGB tracked someone else? But the chances of that would be pretty low I would think. That's when I thought, what if it wasn't Jebus who was Grimmy's target but Ala? This actually made a lot of sense to me. Thinking as if I was in Grimmy's shoes, here we went day two with a large group wanting to lynch Ala but we end up going no lynch. If we have a cop in this game, the chances that he will investigate Ala that night would be rather high. So what if I (Grimmy) was to target Ala and one of my scum buddies with my power? The cop if he investigated Ala would get a guilty, and on top of that on the chance that my partner was investigated he would turn up innocent. A win win situation. This would explain Jebus's vote on Ala and his willingness to hammer him later on. The talk about letting Ala live might have been to try and prolong the day to get more info out of Ala maybe?

So in the end, I'm really not sure. For DGB to be telling the truth and be town, I think it would mean that Grimmy would have had to have interfered by either targeting Jebus or Ala night 2. The question is, would Grimmy/the scum have thought to target Ala? I'm leaning more towards the belief that they would. And therefore I'm leaning more towards DGB being town.

[Nightfall]

I just checked the Wiki. I had never actually even heard of that role before.
If someone has that role here, it would be a first for me.

[Nightfall]

My thoughts on DGB's claim

DGB = Boardwalk with a hotel?
This part of DGB's claim I can believe. Braeden was against name claiming because he thought that power roles would be outed because people know the special or "infamous" spaces. Boardwalk with a hotel is a very infamous space and looking at the other roles claimed it's very reasonable to believe that scum would have targeted him if we name claimed.

Boardwalk with hotel = Tracker?
In terms of flavour I can see this being true. However, just because something would work flavour wise doesn't make things true in this game. We found that out with "get out of jail free" and the "officer" (Go to jail).

DGB = Boardwalk with hotel = Tracker = Town?
I went back and forth on this one many times. The result.... I'm not sure...

But, I am actually

leaning

more towards town.

Given the vanilla townie situation, this being true would make YOU almost certain scum in my eyes.

Say what? Why?

[Nightfall]

Nightfall: When I said that I find your lack of voiced suspicion scummy, that wasn't just a throwaway comment for you to ignore. I want to know who you're suspicious of.

I'm sorry but what post did you say that in? (Pre submit edit) Post 721?
I missed that again at first even on a reread. I think I saw the little line and thought your sig was below.

My thoughts on people are as follows:
DGB: As I explained before I am not certain but I do believe DGB to be more likely town than scum as I think the claim makes sense and the night results would make sense if Ala was the target of our bus driver, which after looking things over I believe is a rather strong possibility.

Fonz: Even though I find (a few of) his posts today to be kind of scummy I'm believing his township claim because of Grimmy's death. If I could think of some other explanation for Grimmy's death then I may have to reconsider, but right now he looks like a lock for a protown role.

Zilla: Since coming into this game Zilla has appeared to be one of the most protown players in this game. While I don't find all of her accusations towards CTD and AC to be greatly supported I am starting to think she may have something with the way CTD and AC are starting to react.

AC: Since AC has replaced in I had got more of a positive read from him than a negative one. I was up in the air regarding his previous incarnations though. There was always someone that I found scummier at the time. In the near future I'll go back and check out some of their posts to see if I can find anything more one way or the other. Posts 729 and 730 seem a bit off to me. (Why did you think my claim was a little fishy?)

CTD: My main suspicions right now fall on CTD. I found Gamma scummy earlier on and Gamma ended up blowing up in anger when pushed. Oddly CTD seems to be doing the same thing now. I'm not fond of his post 705 which looks a little like he went into it with a target for his suspicions predetermined. He has criticized Zilla for seemingly having tunnel vision while at the same time seems to be pretty set on DGB being scum. Also is that a Hitler reference at the end of post 751 on the subject of Zilla? I think that's pretty uncalled for...

Note also that one-shot bulletproof is an incredibly easy scum claim when the town doesn't have any killing power.

Each of the three abilities is one-shot.

So I would make a false claim of a one shot night immune (which I think would be incredibly easy to pretend I have) the day AFTER my scum buddy ended up being vig'ed and BEFORE you revealed that your own actions, including your vig powers are a one time ability? That doesn't make sense.

That seems a poor choice considering I was breadcrumbed as investigated by a cop.

Again, with a scum bus driver, we can't take anything for granted.

DGB, you appear to be unaware of how the combo of target switching and investigations work. If your target is switched, you told who your result is on.

I can't remember ever being in a game where the above has been true. If I was to MOD a game I wouldn't tell the person they're target was interfered with. That's what makes the role a powerful role.

Also Fonz, sorry if you said it before and I missed it, but what did you mean before when you said that Pacman's vig attempt "timed out"?

[Nightfall]

CTD

"Fonz quoted it and agreed with it. I suppose you missed that as well. "
- Yes, Which post is that in?

"Indeed, my target for suspicion was predetermined. Here is where I determined it. This is scummy how?"
"I don't believe DGB's claim. Naturally, I'm pretty set on her being scum. This is tunnel vision how?"
- You have reached a conclusion but in my eyes you don't seem to be really considering the posibility that she could be town and still get the results she claims. In my post on DGB I said why I think she could be telling the truth and I don't think that possiblity has been given enough thought. instead you seem to have moved on to trying to paint me as her partner in crime.

"Just for the record, there is a difference between saying hi to a person and a Hitler salute. Thank you for reading my posts closely."
- That is the reason that I asked if it was a Hitler salute. I apologize if I am wrong but that is what it looked like to me and that's why I commented on it.

"I dislike Nightfall's reaction to my argument with Fonz. He's hedging his bets and playing both sides."
- I wasn't playing both sides. I was feeling that the arguements you were making against each other didn't seem to have much support to them but then when the two of you would react to each others comments you did less to make me think that the otherone had nothing and more to make me think that you were hiding something or wrong in some way.

"Nightfall is a very mixed bag. His suspicions have been horrible all game long and I felt like he spent an inordinate amount of time debating technicalities instead of trying to lynch scum. He was never very forceful about his suspicions and has an air of wishy-washyness."
- I don't think that my suspicions have been horrible at all. The people that I have spoken out against appeared to have been scum because of how they were acting. It's not my fault if someone acts scummy and I find them suspect for that. As for debating technicalities vs finding scum, I thought I was doing both. Also a lot of my talk regarding technicalities have been the result of being called on to defend my suspicions.

"Do you have any flavor supporting your role-claim?"
- Yes I do

FONZ

"He submitted it before the thread was opened, but was told the deadline for night actions had passed. I'd have thought that obvious."
- Zilla had asked about it too so aparantly not. I just wanted to make sure we knew the details.

DGB

If you are around could you post your thoughts. I do agree with CTD that we haven't heard much from you today.

[Nightfall]

No. If a player is busdriven, causing a cop to investigate someone who wasn't his original target, he is given the name of the player he actually has a result on. To do otherwise is major modding malpractice.

IE

Cop: I'll investigate Clean Dean please

(Mafia busdriver switches Clean Dean and Dirty Denzil)

Mod to cop: You find Dirty Denzil guilty.

I don't think that that is true at all (as I have said before)

I think it would be more like this:

Cop: I'll investigate Clean Dean please

(Mafia busdriver switches Clean Dean and Dirty Denzil)

Mod to cop: You get a guilty result

I've been a cop in quite a few games before and I think it depends on the mod how the cop is told the results. i.e. "clean don is innocent" or "you receive an innocent result".

I would believe that normally one wouldn't be told about a change in their target as that would give away the fact that a busdriver or some other switching role was/is in the game.

[Nightfall]

It's only remotely related to the actual case here, and either way it goes, it doesn't establish guilt either way on DGB. All it does is potentially make her claim more or less believable.

Potentially more believable could be a difference maker here though. That's why I wanted to examine it. It seems like people are pretty split on just how possible it is though.

DGB? Anything else that you can think of to say to defend yourself?

[Nightfall]

...What can I say?

[Nightfall]

Good job town.

Regarding the Charter situation though I would have acted the same way had I been town. I really was thinking that maybe there was some sort of metagaming going on with all those first votes on Braeden.

When I saw DGB's *'s post my head hit my desk, I knew if one of us were to be taken out we were likely doomed.

@ DGB, I must ask though why did you claim Boardwalk and a hotel? I even asked one of our mods to make sure my "Free Parking" was actually a safe claim and he was surprised you didn't use yours.

@ Fonz, Congrats on your final night gambit with the doc protect. I didn't even think of that possibility. Then again I pretty much knew I was doomed at that point. I went with not performing a night action hoping I could get one more town lynch out of you guys

This game would have been sooo different had pacmans kill had gone through night 1.

P.s. StrangerSSK I killed Jebus night 3.


I'm happy that we lasted as long as we did though...

[Nightfall]

No worries