Big Brother Mafia - Town wins!

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/confirm, pursued by a bear

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Unrelated-to-game question:
How many seasons has everyone seen of BB US?
Personally, I've seen every one except Seasons 1 and 3.

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And I've seen too many to be proud of.

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I, obviously, need some history with those involved in order to get a vote... based on the fact that he's asking the questions:

Nominate: SlySly

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Question for you Saberwolf:
Is semi-random better? If the player you give it to is a good one (based on meta), and they are scum (which is closer to 50% than in most games) isn't that a bad outcome for a townie?

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If I were HoH, I'd nominate Saber and Paltry

[quote="whoot1234]If I were HOH I would nominate slysly and Mufasa

[/quote][/quote]
Why nominate these people in particular?

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Wow, I really screwed up the posting in the previous one.

If I were HoH, I'd nominate Saber and Paltry

If I were HOH I would nominate slysly and Mufasa

Why nominate these people in particular?

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unvote

I'd ike everyone to answer these questions:

HoH applicationform

1) Do you think it matters a good/experienced player gets elected as HoH?

I think it is more important we find a town player than making sure they are experienced. A good, thinking player is someone I would prefer to see as HoH as long as I also think they are town.

2) Do you think HoH should be guided by town? (as in, we still vote, and HoH picks the highest 2 in the VC)

To a certain degree, the HoH should consider what the town wants. However, there must be an amount of personal responsibility and if I disagree with a large portion of town that one person is scum, I wouldn't put them up. You have to be willing to listen to the other points of view, but not sacrifice your own and treat the HoH position as a weekly immunity. Giving the mafia a chance to slide by without this responsibility is dangerous.

3) If you are very suspicious of someone, would you pick him together with a seemingly town person if you were HoH to be sure your suspect gets lynched?

No. If I the 'townie' individual makes a mistake, or I misread people and the person I think is town gets lynched, I'll be kicking myself (unless that person came up as scum). I'd be nominating my two top suspects every time.

4) If i were HoH, i would pick ___ and ___

Much to early for me to be guaranteeing this either way. If people do feel as though they can answer this already, I'd like to know why.

@Grandi: Could you answer your own questions? I like that you want to get some thought into the game, but your opinions on the matter are as important as ours.

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@Mod: We haven't heard from hexsixsic6 yet. Nor have they confirmed. Prod time?

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I'm going to take this and assume that mufasa and whoot were on seperate factions, otherwise this wouldn't have been an issue.

Lynching one or both have them will lead to a scum kill.

Discuss

Except a quick search shows that this is one of 5 games this exact quote appeared in. This tells us nothing.

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@saberwolf: From what I can tell, this is the only game where both are in. However, it is still a moot point seeing as the exact same message appeared everywhere. It seems crazy to think based on that comment alone that they are on separate teams, and both scum. You seem to have information that is not possible to have at this point. Secondly, your first two answers to Grandi's questions are identical to Crazy's.

2) Do you think HoH should be guided by town? (as in, we still vote, and HoH picks the highest 2 in the VC)

Yes. If the player is town then they will tend to listen to town and pick the most nominated player. I read the old BB mafia game from 2007 (linked by farside in the calling thread) and they used a nomination for the two players that should be picked by the HOH for final voting. HOH kept a record of who was nominated. That seemed to work fairly well.

Scum would maybe listen to town for one but probably nominate someone from town or the other faction as the second player. Fairly obvious but it happened in the last game.

The last BB game did not turn out well for town, so adopting the same strategy seems foolhardy.

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I said they could be in two different factions. town is still a faction, so only one needs to be scum.

Sorry. I misread your original comment on the matter. After re-reading it, you don't say that both are scum.

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@Sironigous: In your response to question 2 of Grandi's now oft-quoted questions, you mention that an HoH acting by him/herself is suspicious. Why? Isn't independent thought what we're looking for in an HoH?

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Do I get to know why you think I'm suspicious?

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To a certain degree, yes, independence is what I'm looking for. If I don't see someone thinking for themselves and just going with the group whenever it can be a huge hinderance. Personal thought is important for the HoH so that way scumhunting is more profitable instead of just wooing the crowd.
'Unfavorable' nominations could weed out hiding scum... or it could hurt town. Still, I think it foolish to deny the HoH that freedom. If they make scummy nominations, they deserve to be under suspicion, rather than just go with the town.

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Paltry,

-you started the game with non-game conversation.
-You nom'd Sly simply for asking questions.

I admit, the initial question was just for friendly conversation. Not really pro-town (though I would argue it's just null as the question was during the confirmation stage). I nom'd Sly since he seemed to be doing scumhunting, I can easily remove my nom later if Sly does something to change my mind.

-I didn't like your question to Saber about "semi-random".
-Your HOH application seems to overly stress that we need a town HOH. It seems obvious enough and shouldn't have to be forced in there like that. The question had nothing to do with alignment. Only experience and skill.
-I don't like that you can't give two suspects yet, but are confident enough that Sly is town that you are willing to nominate him. If this were a normal game, I'd like to know who you'd be voting right now.

Do you not like me questioning Saber of his use of 'semi-random'?
At only 2 days in (of a possible 7) I don't feel strong enough in my viewpoints to say who I'd nom if HoH.

-You seem too quick to discount Grandi and DisCode having to be on opposing factions (or both town). But the logic is there.

About the Grandi/DisCode thing: They (Mufasa & Whoot) were in a game together (StrangerCoug's Deja Bastard), and on the same faction (town), however Slatorade did not put his copied post into that game interestingly enough. However, I still think it's a big giant null. The fact that it was copied into 4 other games gives me this impression. This is more a disagreement than scummy either way. I thought it was crazy to assume that they had to be on different factions.

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Right, I want to

nominate: SensFan for HoH

as I think he will do a decent job for at least week one's nominations for eviction.

What in this game gave you this impression?

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At this point, do we really care who is HoH?

Like seriously, you should all be trying to get on my good side, because we all know no matter who gets HoH, I'll be put up, and lynched, and then I'm in charge of picking the new HoH. At this point I'm gonna try to pick someone who I think is scum, until I see otherwise to not do so.

Are you playing the same game we are?

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Paltry,

"friendly conversation" isn't null. It's a distraction from the game and is anti-town at best.

I asked a question before the game kicked off. I've been pretty focused on the game since then. For me, you're reading way too much into it. How often are we playing a Big Brother themed game? Not often. It was harmless and was very minimally distracting, if at all.

You didn't seem to be "questioning" Saber. More just commenting. You didn't really do much with it.

If asking a question isn't questioning, I don't really know how else to go about it.

Yeah, that's the thing. You don't feel ready to call anyone scum, but at the same time you are ready to call Sly town and hand him HOH. Yet you can't even name the two scummiest players in the game in your opinion. I'd be satisfied just to hear one name from you because the only stance you've taken is "SlySly for HOH!".

The obvious choice at this point is Saber, who even if town has been extremely unhelpful and scummy and is dangerous to keep around. A second choice would probably be Finch, for the fact that he was so quick to move off of his vote for SensFan.
And yes, I do feel that Sly has been actively trying to scumhunt, a good sign of town, and it is my stance at this time. These are if I HAD to make the decision right now.

If Mufasa and Whoot were scum together, I don't think they'd have been replaced in their situation. Nobody even knew about the situation until after the fact, so it wasn't an issue if they were scumbuddies.

It's an issue either way. They could easily collude, and we had nothing to go on but their word that they weren't. It wasn't known to the moderators of the site, so they were banned site-wide. Stop trying to second guess the mod's reasons for replacing them based on Slatorade's comment. That is dangerous.
It is not scummy to say it's a nulltell because of the situation they were involved in. I'm trying to say we can really make no firm judgments on the case, and really feel it is null unless further connections can be made. You're jumping to conclusions based on ambiguous evidence.

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I'm really curious as to why SensFan for HoH?
What I understand: he is a good player, whom people think will choose correctly for town... if town.
What I don't understand: why one post in the entire game makes people think he is town.

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I thought I said it in my most recent post to this one, but I'll say it again:

I'd nominate Saber: He has been admittedly scummy, and has tried to rush the day needlessly at one point.

I just don't want to see this turn into Sen's tree stump game, All talk and no direction.

I'll scumhunt if needed, but I much rather get the ball rolling now, it just makes it easier is all.

He is extremely anti-town, and really I don't understand his play at all.

Second nomination would be Mr. Finch or Zwet:
Finch hasn't been that active in this game, and I asked him one question and he quickly changed his mind.
The Zwet contradiction you pointed out is interesting and definitely worthy of a nom. And after a quick look at his posts, despite others having a problem with a lack of reasoning in their HoH nomination choices, Zwet still has posted nothing on his reasons for Nominating Sironigous.


Otherwise, I'd still like to know why you'd like SensFan for HoH possibly.

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So who are you looking at putting up for possible lynching if HoH, SensFan?

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KMD vs. SensFan vs. SlySly

KMD:
Seems to be pro-town.
He is actively scum-hunting, however, his clues have led him to me... So although I think he's pro-town, I don't really want him to be HoH as I think I will be nom'd and I know he's putting up a townie.
Secondly, what puts doubt in my mind is:

I also think that, if town, Zwet can catch a scum. I'm confident in his ability as far as scumhunting.

Zwet has avoided questions, and provided no reasons for his nominations. He just has nominated. He hasn't answered why lynching scum today implies a scum HoH, or responded to Llama pointing out a contradiction. From what I can tell, his reason for nomming Sly is because he thinks Saber is the inevitable lynch.
How can he Nominate someone like this for HoH? It seems based on the fact that if town, he knows Zwet to be a good scumhunter. Woo, dependence on meta.
These two factors together make it pretty much impossible for me to support him for HoH.

SensFan:
All I have on SensFan for what he'd do as HoH is the system used in a Kingmaker game. Seems logical enough. However, other than "Not SlySly for HoH", I still don't know who he would put up himself. Who do you suspect SensFan?

SlySly:
He started asking questions instead of depending on meta as the sole reason for nomming someone for HoH, which I'd prefer. Merit over actions unrelated to this one. (This might be my inexperience talking, but my faith in meta is limited.) This entailed the entire reason I voted for him so early.
The most recent exchange between him and Llama is very interesting.

I dont see paltry or SB as excellent lynches, just people who are hovering around neutral. I do see choices of yours as bad lynches. It is more likely for me to have a neutral lynch become a good lynch then a bad lynch become a good lynch.

Llama comes off as a rational thinker in this post. He isn't guaranteeing anything, but is weighing the best options for town from his POV. (Unfortunately... again my name pops up.) I do agree that people need to treat this as a deadline lynch (or in this case a deadline promotion) and get on a side they are most comfortable as being HoH.
Sly's decision to nominate SensFan was based on Saber's vote for him. At this point, I see Saber as a random, slightly scummy element to this game, and is out for enjoyment rather than to play it early on. I don't agree with a SensFan nomination.

Problem: I would prefer a LlamaFluff HoH at this point. A bit aggressive, logical, and independent, plus I agree with his point of view on Zwet. I think it's too late to get a bandwagon started on him (unfortunately he had to replace in midgame).

I'm keeping my vote on Sly for three reasons:
1) I think we've narrowed down our choices to the 3 with more than 1 vote at this point.
2) Kmd is going to nominate 1 person incorrectly from my knowledge guaranteed, and the other has given me few answers as to how he sees the game other than in the case against Sly.
3) I can see the Sens nomination making sense if he doesn't tell us soon who he is suspecting. I have no idea, unless I take Llama's reasoning for nominating Kmd (he sees the me and SnowBunny as good secondaries) as the people he finds suspicious.

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No, I don't think any HoH should choose entirely independently on his own. Hopefully he will take into consideration whether or not the majority of town would like you to be nom'd for lynch, and I get the impression he will.
Kmd, however, seems to find me scummy, and I get the impression he will put me up.
I wanted to see where your thoughts were lying before I could consider you as a possible HoH, especially considering all active players have announced their nomination choices if it were a completely independent choice.

I agree with both of you. It is crazy to assume that the HoH should be completely separate from the group, but also crazy to base it on meta like many people were doing...

But if we do take into account PJ's plan, the HoH can put whomever they like on the execution list, so long as they also provide reasons.
Since you've answered my question, what little I was doubting about you (SensFan) has disappeared and has made you more neutral in my eyes. I don't find Sly as suspicious as you find him either. I wouldn't put either of you on the execution list.

I'll try to be on as much as possible before the deadline, so if we can get the votes for a LlamaFluff HoH I'm all for it.

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Why is everyone worried on the second pick? We all know saber is going first.

We don't know that for sure. It seems likely at this point, but what if saber wins the veto power?

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POV will no longer be in play as of game day 8. After day 8 there will no longer be a POV in the game.

Er... this is telling me that it has a good possibility of being in the game.

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EBWOP:
...of

the power of Veto

being...

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Er... this is telling me that it has a good possibility of being in the game.

I'm sure it does exist. It would hardly be Big Brother without it. Although, it seems preassigned instead of something that can be 'earned'. Coup de'tat sound like it is a power that can be earned, but it won't be a factor for the first HoH.

Ya. Upon a re-read, it looks like someone begins with it, or at least Saber can't earn it on his own without random chance. My bad.

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Basically, the coup d'etat is a power that allows someone to usurp the HoH position at any time before the day's lynch, and put up their own nominations. I could really only see this being used if the coup d'etat holder is nominated / going to be lynched. Basically, it's like a reset with a new HoH.

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Kind of. In the show where this was used, the houseguests / competitors were given 3 clues, a sheep wearing a pink bow tie, a giant spool of thread and needle, and a grim reaper.
The answer was "You reap what you sow." I'm assuming it is along the same lines.

About the coup d'etat: Are we PMing you our answers?

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I meant there are two puzzles, both along the same lines of that appearing in the show. They weren't shown all 3 clues at once.

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I have the veto this week, so if you're worried about Saber having it, you need not do so anymore. I'll post on who I'd like to nominate later.

Question: Is the POV more pro-town or pro-scum?

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On my nominations

First up, saberwolf.
It is really based on the fact that I see you as trying to rush the day early on.

I just figure its easier to pick a person at seemingly random and then watch day 1 unfold, and then scumhunt.

It seems like you were advocating us going to a quick choice of who to be HoH. The deadline argument at the end of Day 1 wouldn't have happened if we rushed into nominating an HoH as you suggested.

you'll never know for sure who is and isnt scum unless youre on a scum faction. if you get a scummy vibe from townie and then decide to give it to scum instead, thats just as bad.

This is obvious. If town makes mistakes, they can look scummy. A mislynch implies that town has made a mistake. Making our best effort at getting a townie on HoH is going to maximize our chances at getting exactly that. Again, you seem to want to hurry the HoH nominating process.

I just don't want to see this turn into Sen's tree stump game, All talk and no direction.

I'll scumhunt if needed, but I much rather get the ball rolling now, it just makes it easier is all.

Again, hurrying the day.

Second, zwetschenwasser.
To quote myself:

Zwet has avoided questions, and provided no reasons for his nominations. He just has nominated. He hasn't answered why lynching scum today implies a scum HoH, or responded to Llama pointing out a contradiction. From what I can tell, his reason for nomming Sly is because he thinks Saber is the inevitable lynch.

On the Veto

I assume there is only one POV holder per week because:
A) On the show, there is only on POV holder per week.
B) The section in the rules describing the POV mentions the current

holder, not holders

.

On that note, if someone counterclaims, they lie. Put us both up and watch me take myself off and the other person be unable to. Lynch the liar. Therefore, I doubt there will be a counterclaim.

Personally, I doubt we'd see anyone use the veto on someone other than the veto holder. Which makes it another weekly immunity for the holder, along with the HoH which will be chosen at the lynched's discretion. The reason I thought it might be a better power for scum is that it could protect them needlessly for a week, and makes another possible suspect go down the drain. If the majority of others agree it is better for scum, perhaps we should use it in these first two weeks.

On Kmd's case

Twice you've agreed with what I've said (my HoH application and Post 172 where I question why SensFan has support) and yet you find me scummy. I'll admit that my scumhunting hasn't been as aggressive as others, but I don't think it is as negligible as you're making it out to be.
1) I did question Saber, however, I I could've pursued him on it further.
2) I did question the disappeared Grandi why he didn't answer his own HoH application questions.
3) When Finch gives no reason for nomming SensFan, I question him on it, prompting him to switch his nomination.
4) One of two posts you agree with, is me commenting on why people were pushing for a SensFan HoH.

What is weird is that you nominated Zwet without giving ANY reasons, and you question my nom of Sly because I gave a reason early on. It got stronger as I saw him scum hunt, hence why it didn't change late in the day.

I'd nominate Saber: He has been admittedly scummy

Why use the word "admittedly" there?

Why not?

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@KMD:
So would you argue that every person below me on the list has been a more productive scumhunter than myself? Your case seems to be built on me not providing any new information...
Animorpherv1 has done absolutely no scumhunting from what I can tell, not even an attempt. He is high on your list, however.
Grandi posted his questions about the HoH but has been gone since. He's given no opinions so far this game.
zwetschenwasser has given us small posts, and the reason you wanted to give him HoH is for him to take a position. How is this conducive to your arguments that I haven't been effective / productive?
I don't see what you see in Sironigous. Before his most recent post, he hadn't done anything that would lean me to think a scumhunter. Why so town?
All Mr. Finch needed was one post about Llama for you to think he was town.
What exactly has SnowBunny done that would lead you to think they're 'natural'? I don't see any scumhunting there.

Long story short, I feel I've attempted to do more than these 6, although my attempts have been relatively unsuccessful.

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Post 323:

I have the veto this week, so if you're worried about Saber having it, you need not do so anymore. I'll post on who I'd like to nominate later.

Question: Is the POV more pro-town or pro-scum?

As it says on the rules of the POV, the current holder chooses who gets it the next week if it isn't used. Do you want someone you find scummy to decide where to have it anyway?
And seriously, saber lightly implied he may have it. I TOLD you all I have it.

@zwet: Who strawmanned who? Elaborate, please.

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I think putting Paltry on the block to test his POV and discredit the idea that saber has one too may not be such a bad idea.

I have no problem with this, so long as town is willing to lose one of two chances at this PoV on a test. It is why I originally asked whether the PoV itself is good for the town, as it gives one more person, along with the HoH, a weekly immunity.

However,
@Sly: It is scary to start playing the scum team game without even having a single mafia reveal.

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About this 'overdefensiveness': I think it goes from player to player, and isn't really a scum tell. Based on my sole completed game, on Day 3 there were 3 people who could have been lynched, and the only person who wasn't overdefensive was myself... the lone mafia remaining in the game. If I go solely from my previous experience (which is admittedly minimal) town is more likely to be defensive. But I'm going to stick with it depends on the player.

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@Sly: Wait a tic. You mentioned that Llama's reasons for nominating kmd for HoH made it impossible for you to nominate him for HoH. Who did you want as HoH other than yourself? You didn't have a vote on anyone from what I can see at the end of the day.

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On Sly's possible nominations:
a) I like the zwet nom, obviously, as he was one of mine.
b) The kmd nomination I don't really understand... it's more based on his relationship to zwet then what kmd has done in this game. I agree his convictions on me are stronger than I think evidence dictates (along with wrong). It just seems gut based, and at this point I'd rather 2 nominees who have evidence against them. I'd prefer an animorph nominee than a Sens nominee. I think pablito's point that people need to not worry so much about the PoV being in Saber's hand (thought it is not) is a good point, and he seems to be just looking for a place to seem less suspicious than any progression of the game.

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I would prefer not to waste your POV, it could come in handy for the town later.

Just to make sure everyone knows (as there has been a lot of confusion about the PoV) I don't keep it from week to week. I pass it on, and if you get passed it, you can't give it back to the person whom gave it to you.

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Wha? I'm confused.

Your being childish, and theres no reason you aren't scum.

What are your reasons he is scum? Just the "RAGE...quit"?

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What was anti-town about Sensfan's play?

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I say we go one step at a time. Assuming connections without scum flips will drive us into ugly corners, hence why I don't support a kmd lynch.

I really don't understand the Sens lynch, at all. Beyond a bit of showboating about him not liking ad hominem arguments, I can't say what he has done is overpoweringly scummy in comparison to saber's wishes to rush the day IMO, and zwet's uninformative behaviour.

I won't support the idea that putting zwet in a position of power in order to make him talk would be a good thing. He could've just of easily gone with the town, and done what they might have wanted. We had one chance to give town in particular power, and it would have been foolish for us not to take it.

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That's the way I read the POV too. It's a one shot deal and when it's gone it's gone.

Once I receive notice that the current holder wishes to use the power, I will reveal the results of said power, as well as the history of who has had that power during each week in the game. POV will no longer be in play as of game day 8. After day 8 there will no longer be a POV in the game.
If the POV is used it will go back into play and given to a player at random. Once used a second time the POV will no longer be in the game.

It can be used twice. And once used, everyone will know who had it, and when.

Ad hominem is when you attack the player, instead of the argument. It's a logical fallacy. An example would be: "That player has a horrible record as town, so they must be wrong this game."

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@Crazy:

I find that replacing out of games is a bad habit for scum, when noone is listeneing to them. I would never do that, and I'd advise everyone else to do the same. And, just in case you haven't noticed, what Sens is doing is either really childish, or scummy, and he deserves to die because of both.

Why is childish lynch worthy?

ruining the spirit of the game. Making it less fun, difficult to read that person and difficult to think of connections when there bitching at everyone.

Why is replacing out lynch worthy?

Same as above, without the last one. With the exception of being too busy to play, becaus it's actually a good reason. Also, replacing out in a game with 1 week deadlines (like this) makes it tough on everyone else.

I completely disagree. I say, if someone isn't participating, doesn't want to participate, replace them. Not that I want everyone to be replaced, but I don't want policy lynches based on emotion. It doesn't make them lynch worthy because they get angry and quit. To assume you know their exact reasons (that they have to be scum) is to assume you know the individual much better than you possibly can, IMO.

[PaltryExcuse]

Well, 1 out of 5 is

good

for me! Normally it's 0/10. I'm improving.

I don't know what this means.

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Temper tantrums don't have to make sense logically and you trying to dismiss the possibility doesn't make it cease to exist.

What doesn't make logical sense in my mind is why a tantrum implies scum.

[PaltryExcuse]

For clarification, if the PoV is used, is the vote count reset?

Yes

[PaltryExcuse]

As I said before, I wasn't looking at either of these two for lynching at all. Because of this, I am definitely contemplating using the PoV. One thing that is holding me back, is if the town needs this later, we've lost one use of this. On the other, if scum has it, it doesn't help the town anyways.

@Sly: Who would you put up if I used the veto?

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This sounds either really selfish, which is anti-town, or scared scum because he has one or even two of his buddies up for eviction. I'd hazard a guess and say sensfan.

This is laughable.
A) I've told Sly and town, in advance, that I'm thinking about it.
B) I've been a firm defender of independent thought in this game, and its importance.
C) Sly was the only one who nom'd kmd, and then he's up. How could you not see that as selfish?
D)

I rather stick to my pursuit of non meta and have you guys lynch me for my scummy behaviour then to generate meta as HoH and be NKed later. I don't give a shit about you guys, it's only about surviving as long as I can on my own for me. Yeah, it's anti-town, I admit it, but then again, I already said I don't give a shit.

Accusing me of selfishness in comparison to this is insane.

This constant guessing about scumbuddies is getting old when we haven't even seen a single flip of scum.

That would depend on which one you took off the block.

I'd have to decide which one I felt was less likely scum.

[PaltryExcuse]

This constant guessing about scumbuddies is getting old when we haven't even seen a single flip

of scum.

All flips help in some way.

Misinterpretation: of COURSE every flip gives us information. Speculating constantly on scumbuddies should wait until a later point when we do have more information. Scum flips lend much more to who could be scumbuddies as we have a confirmed scum.


I'm thinking of vetoing kmd. I'm getting a pro-town read, despite him pressuring me in particular. He's got the wrong interpretation of my play, but he's got the right way of looking for scum.

[PaltryExcuse]

And in case it wasn't obvious, I want both of them off the block. I don't think either of them is scum at this point.

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Please explain one thing to me:
kmd is scum because of his relationship to zwet. Therefore zwet and kmd are scum.
Llama and kmd have a connection, making Llama scum.
kmd attacks me, I show an interest in using the veto on him: I am scum.
That's 4 scum on one team.

[PaltryExcuse]

Llama seemed protown to me other than his bogus reason for supporting kmd. Now, you wanting to take kmd off the block makes me think maybe I was wrong about Llama and you are the 3rd scum on the team. That would also make sense of kmd trying to distance from you. You shouldn't have showed your ace in the hole. No one was onboard with my kmd pick and no one was going to support it. You showing nervousness about him being there and wanting to use 1 of the 2 possible POV's in this game on him, is giving weight to my theory.

Or it is the much simpler reason of: I think you are wrong. I think this is town vs. town. And I put myself on the line to prove it.

[PaltryExcuse]

I've vetoed Kmd. It isn't official until farside announces it, but who is the replacement nom?

[PaltryExcuse]

Right now, we're scummy because we disagree with you. That's all I see.
zwet, for being anti-town and uninformative.
kmd, for his support of zwet for possible HoH... who you are saying could possibly not be town.
Llama, for his support of kmd.
Me, for PoVing kmd due to my town read on him and Sens.

Your self-assurance that you've got this perfect scares the living bejeezus out of me. How I see your current point of view: Your noms must be right, and anyone who disagrees must be scum and colluding.

[PaltryExcuse]

zwet, for being anti-town and uninformative.

zwet has been 100% useless in this game. Do you disagree? If you do, please quote anything zwet has put forth that actually contributed in a pro-town fashion. zwet hasn't really agreed or disagreed with anything in this game.

No. I don't. Hence why I nominated him for a lynch. I just feel that the beginning of your search started with his lack of participation and general avoidance of questions. I am all for a zwet nom.

kmd, for his support of zwet for possible HoH... who you are saying could possibly not be town.

1. connection to zwet / wanting zwet as HoH
2. connection to Llama
3. I felt his targeting of you was baseless and it appeared to be scum trying to cast suspicion on a pro-town player. Now it seems possible that it was distancing the entire time.
4. craftily trying to fly under the radar as I have seen him do before. He and anyone else can call this bs, but I have seen it firsthand before and his play in this game is reminding me heavily of what I have seen before.

nothing to do with disagreement.

His connections to unproven scum (who could still be town), on day 1, is NOT a good reason for nomination. I agree he was tunneling hard on me, but, if he believes what he says it is a legitimate reason for lynching. Problem is, he's wrong. The 4th point is meta, and I have to take your word on it.

Llama, for his support of kmd.

I originally thought Llama was very pro-town. Him insisting to get into a semantics battle over his preference of kmd for HoH while the nominees put forth were basically the same, made me strongly sense a connection to kmd. Now he has added to my suspicion by lobbying to waste a valuable town tool, the POV, which could have been put to much better use.

I will make this clear. The POV is only a town tool in town hands. Just like the HoH powers. I thought your nominations were wrong, and so did Llama. I am of the same opinion that if you believe that neither of the nominees are scum, the PoV is the best way to try and get a scum up.

Me, for PoVing kmd due to my town read on him and Sens.

Your self-assurance that you've got this perfect scares the living bejeezus out of me. How I see your current point of view: Your noms must be right, and anyone who disagrees must be scum and colluding.

You acted awfully fast to get kmd off the block. In the process of doing so, you have taken a valuable tool away from the town that you could have easily passed on to another player to be used in a much worse situation than kmd vs Sens.

So kmd vs. Sens is a bad situation? For me, yes it is. Two townies up for lynching is the worst situation. It can't get any worse.

kmd was not going to be voted out over Sens and if you had waited a day or two, that would have been obvious and you could have not wasted the POV.

If kmd was not going to be voted out, and it was obvious, why did you put him up? It seems like you are guaranteeing a Sens lynch instead of the kmd one you claim to want.

You feeling the need to use it here, screams scum trying to get his buddy off the block, especially considering how little danger kmd appeared to be.

You and Llama circling the wagons and being so willing to waste the POV so fast to save kmd is what has me so suspicious. That really has nothing to do with disagreement. You do realize that kmd had 0 votes to be evicted, right?

The problem with everything you've said is: you've implied that all 4 of us are scum on the same team. You HAVE to be wrong. I don't think 2 of the people are scum, and I know 1 isn't. The last (zwet) is a completely viable nomination. You are jumping to conclusions, and all you have are these 'connections'.
I made it clear before hand that I did not like Sens or kmd as noms. I think both are town at this point, and that is a worst case scenario to me. I do think I'm helping the town. Why would you keep two people around who are asking to be nominated? Why would you keep two people around who are displaying such ridiculously anti-town behaviour?

[PaltryExcuse]

I forgot to answer that. I'd choose Llama, or Crazy. They both seem like thinking townies to me.

[PaltryExcuse]

Sorry for being non-existant these past couple days. School got the best of me, and I will catch up after some sleep. I feel especially bad in this game as it was during a re-nomination I caused. I apologize again.

[PaltryExcuse]

Firstly, to answer your question on why I got a town-read on SensFan:
A) He wanted to use a previously successful strategy in order to help out the town.
B) Upon catching up, SensFan took on the most likely candidate at that time for HoH. This is either really ballsy scum, or truthful town.
C) A support of either you or KMD was logical to me at that point, although I thought KMD was wrong, he did satisfy what I wanted in an HoH: thinking and scumhunting. Wrong interpretation, but a good choice for people who weren't me if they believed his case.

I didn't really agree with the reasons he was scummy that I saw as given:
A) He was deliberately lurking until he got the prod. That's ridiculous.
B) His emotional quitting was because he was scum. As I said before, ballsy scum or honest town. Ballsy scum who doesn't have the backbone to keep to his own claims? It doesn't seem likely. Honest town that didn't think things through? More likely.

Overall: Pro-town read.

About what I've missed recently:
I would've preferred a zwet or ani nom, but I'm in no position to complain due to my departure. What I have seen is that the current HoH has nominated two people who were being replaced and were not in a position to defend themselves.

[PaltryExcuse]

1. I'm not saying you weren't on his case before, however, he was being replaced at the time you nominated him. This alone would not have caught my attention.
2. DisCode had not posted, site-wide, during either of those two phases. He wasn't lurking this game, he wasn't on the site. When you nominated him, he hadn't posted on the site in 6 days. 6 DAYS! You nominated someone who was obviously flaking, and used the reason people were giving on someone who would post seemingly whenever they got prodded. This is either a severe lack of research and thought by a townie or an excuse by scum.

[PaltryExcuse]

Questions:
@Llama: Right now you are arguing that DisCode was flaking (something I agree with). Why would you want a flaker, who has very little information to go on for the rest of us, as HoH?

@Sly: I agree connections to scum can be undoubtedly scummy. Why are you pursuing a lynch on someone who you can't point out as individually scummy, but only due to connections to someone who's role is unconfirmed? At one point you say that you want evidence of DisCode's flaking in game, however your reasons for wanting DisCode out are based on a different player?

[PaltryExcuse]

At this point, I'd rather vote bv310, as he is saying he's reading but not giving us any proof he is.

I agree, but more for this post:

^Same. 28 pages is a lot, and I suspected myself for a few pages before I remembered who I replaced :p

I'm actually kind of curious as to why he thought DisCode was scummy.

[PaltryExcuse]

tl;dr : Too long, didn't read.

[PaltryExcuse]

bv310: Some idea as to why you could see Sens/Ani as scumbuddies... etc. would be really helpful. If town, you have no reason not to give us some information as to what led you to your thinking.

[PaltryExcuse]

I think the Deadline is Dec. 14th, and seeing as I haven't got any further information from bv310 + a town read on SensFan / hewitt, I'm gonna vote.

Vote: bv310

Will be

V/LA until late in the evening on the 14th / early morning of the 15th.

[PaltryExcuse]

@Animorpherv1: Just going through your posts in ISO, the only person I saw you pursuing at any point was SensFan for his flake. Now you've voted for bv310, essentially, not SensFan. Who do you suspect and why? At this point I've seen nothing on how you actually are perceiving the game other than posts that are re-iterations of other people's posts? We have 30 pages of information, at this point you've gotta have someone who you find is suspicious.

[PaltryExcuse]

@Animorpherv1: Just going through your posts in ISO, the only person I saw you pursuing at any point was SensFan for his flake. Now you've voted for bv310, essentially, not SensFan. Who do you suspect and why? At this point I've seen nothing on how you actually are perceiving the game other than posts that are re-iterations of other people's posts? We have 30 pages of information, at this point you've gotta have someone who you find is suspicious.

Oh Ani! This post, please respond.

@Llama: I can't speak for the rest, but, my vote was based on I have a strong town feel on SensFan's slot. So, I voted non-hewitt.

[PaltryExcuse]

@Animorpherv1: Just going through your posts in ISO, the only person I saw you pursuing at any point was SensFan for his flake. Now you've voted for bv310, essentially, not SensFan. Who do you suspect and why? At this point I've seen nothing on how you actually are perceiving the game other than posts that are re-iterations of other people's posts? We have 30 pages of information, at this point you've gotta have someone who you find is suspicious.

Oh Ani! This post, please respond.

Missed it. I get the feeling that hewitt is much, much better then Sens and more

likely

pro-town then bv310, who hasn't contributed as much.

Er, let me rephrase this then as my question was not about bv / hewitt. Who do you suspect at this point outside of the two on the block? Especially outside of the one who just got lynched.

[PaltryExcuse]

Hewitt (2) saberwolf, Hewitt

Er?

The second vote is supposed to be for Llama.

^ yeah it was. I'm sorry I have been more busy then normal lately and have brain farts

[PaltryExcuse]

The 'Oh Ani!'s. Part 2, of hopefully only 2.

Er, let me rephrase this then as my question was not about bv / hewitt. Who do you suspect at this point outside of the two on the block? Especially outside of the one who just got lynched.

[PaltryExcuse]

I was going through some old stuff, and I totally missed this question.

@Paltry - were you ever thinking about using veto on saberwolf before SlySly was crowned as HoH?

Nope. I think saberwolf was rushing us needlessly, and although he has become more focused, I still don't (and never have had) a town read on him.

[PaltryExcuse]

Also thanks to someones stupid noms we only have one PoV left... so

If someone that is going to be nommed HAS and will use PoV, they claim it so we dont put them up and use the last one. If they get countered, we have found scum

I thought I was doing the right thing, but I should've put more thought into it.
A) As (I can't remember who) said, all I had was talking to go on, so I could've just had been led down the wrong track, and my reads wrong. So saving the PoV might've been a good idea. (If this was it, I still would've used the veto.)
B) I should've realized that after Sly put up 1 person generally considered townish, he would do it again.

So, PoV usage would go on his noms and my rash decision.

[PaltryExcuse]

I was going through some old stuff, and I totally missed this question.

@Paltry - were you ever thinking about using veto on saberwolf before SlySly was crowned as HoH?

Nope. I think saberwolf was rushing us needlessly, and although he has become more focused, I still don't (and never have had) a town read on him.

The reason why I asked this question was because I saw something you said before you revealed you had the POV:

Why is everyone worried on the second pick? We all know saber is going first.

We don't know that for sure. It seems likely at this point, but what if saber wins the veto power?

Why would you insinuate that saber could get the PoV in the first week if you had it yourself?

To me it reads like you briefly contemplated using PoV on saber when you wrote that post before. And that just seems...scummy.

I received the PoV after Sly got HoH. That post is before Sly got HoH.

[PaltryExcuse]

I received the PoV after Sly got HoH. That post is before Sly got HoH.

Smells a little fishy to me with all the talk you had been doing about POV right before I got HoH. Did the POV burn your hand? It seemed you couldn't wait to get rid of it.

You either believe me or you don't. What reason would I have had to lie about it anyways? You're just throwing suspicion around, hoping something will stick.


@Ani: I'm not asking out of all those who have been on the block. I'm looking for who you find scummy out of EVERYONE in the game. Do you have a case on anyone?

[PaltryExcuse]

You're just throwing suspicion around, hoping something will stick.

It's funny how the suspicion seems to continue surrounding those I have been suspicious of all along.

Really? Where is that?

[PaltryExcuse]

If it were up to me, I would put up kmd ("really liked" the DisCode nomination, among other previously stated reasons, which I can restate upon request) & paltry (hastily wasted POV on kmd with 0 votes and seemingly no support for being evicted & fishiness of POV discussion right before he now claims to have gotten it). Why would mod hold off handing out POV until HoH was appointed to keep it from landing in the HoH's hands? Had Paltry not wasted the POV, he easily could have passed it to you today not knowing you were going to receive the HoH this week and the POV would have ended up in the HoH hands. Though I don't know why Paltry would lie about when he received the POV, it just seems a little too coincidental to me.

PoV on kmd: Just to re-iterate, I thought neither was scum. That's why I used it. You're deliberately misrepresenting what is going on. It is not a "must save kmd" it is a "must get someone who I actually think is scum up on the block". kmd seemed to fulfill the requirements for a scumhunting townie and the case seemed to be "I am SlySly. He is scum. Trust me.", and I gave my case on why I thought SensFan was town in Post #674.
So I have no reason (that you can think of) to lie about when I got the PoV... but me talking about it and then getting it is too coincidental? Your grand schemes of intrigue require TOO MUCH to be right about what you have said when the only evidence we have is of you being wrong. It's possible that some of your conclusions are correct, however, how you got there is why there is few, if any, people believing them.
And about why the mod would hold off on the PoV thing. If she follows the timeline of the show, it goes: HoH, PoV, Eviction. OMG! Continuity! How dare she?

One question: Why is the speed in which I used the PoV scummy? I admit it was hasty, but I thought I explained myself well enough of why I would use it. The strongest argument I can see is about me using it Week 1, to which I agree.

[PaltryExcuse]

but me talking about it and then getting it is too coincidental?

1/13 is pretty lucky. Not impossible, but improbable. Wouldn't you agree?

Yep. It is. But the main point of this is: What reason would I have for playing that way? I.E. Pretending I didn't have the PoV and then after you get HoH saying I have PoV. If you can answer this at any point, that'd be awesome.

One question: Why is the speed in which I used the PoV scummy?

It brought kmd vs Sens discussion to a screeching halt.

Point. I didn't see it that way.


@Sly: Stop snipping my quotes so they serve your best interest. You're ignoring other things I'm saying and then finding little tidbits you can jump on.

[PaltryExcuse]

Paltry, you also mentioned that you would be willing to use the PoV (at least initially) to prove that saberwolf did not have it. ie: prove a counterclaim.

That seems scummy to me.

If saber was claiming PoV and I know I have it and I can prove him wrong and catch a scum? Yes, it sounds like a good idea. Saber came forward and said he didn't have it. Why is catching someone in a lie and proving it scummy?

[PaltryExcuse]

with saber acting the way he was...why would you have believed him?

No. But there were a couple others who were.

furthermore, you could've just point blank asked saber if he had it. rather than expressing the willingness to waste the pov for that purpose. And I do think that willing to waste the pov to counterclaim is WAY scummier than willingness to use pov in a week 1 situation.

Why?

[PaltryExcuse]

Paltry, you also mentioned that you would be willing to use the PoV (at least initially) to prove that saberwolf did not have it. ie: prove a counterclaim.

That seems scummy to me.

If saber was claiming PoV and I know I have it and I can prove him wrong and catch a scum? Yes, it sounds like a good idea. Saber came forward and said he didn't have it. Why is catching someone in a lie and proving it scummy?

haha, yes, the key part being I never claimed to have POV

You kind of hinted at it here:

Oooooo...people are beginning to talk about veto and other important stuff....


I wonder if anybody has clued in yet

[PaltryExcuse]

But the main point of this is: What reason would I have for playing that way? I.E. Pretending I didn't have the PoV and then after you get HoH saying I have PoV. If you can answer this at any point, that'd be awesome.

It just seems a little fishy to me. I'm not trying to outguess the mod as pablito suggested, I'm trying to make sense out of a seemingly out of the blue POV discussion, more or less lead by you, happening right before you claim to have received it, which you have even agreed was improbable. That doesn't mean you are scummily lying about it, but you could be for I reason I have yet to see.

Good ol' mystery reason. Seriously, lets just drop this one. It makes no sense. The wonderful thing about a 1/13 chance is that it happens once every 13 times.

One question: Why is the speed in which I used the PoV scummy?

It brought kmd vs Sens discussion to a screeching halt.

Point. I didn't see it that way.

I think you are agreeing with me here. Am I correct?

Yes. It would've been helpful to see if things would've played out as I thought, a battle of who is 'less town' rather than who is scummy.

@Sly: Stop snipping my quotes so they serve your best interest. You're ignoring other things I'm saying and then finding little tidbits you can jump on.

I am not misrepping anything. If I have to trim things to make my point more clearly, I will. No need in quoting entire paragraphs to make a point about one sentence. That just makes the thread harder to read and understand.

Except when you do that you change the meaning of it. Basically, my point was that you found it coincidental that it happened, and that's the only reason you find it suspicious. But you completely ignore the fact that I originally point out I had no reason to lie about it then, or even really now. Then I give you a reason why the mod would order things that way, and you completely disregard it. It just seems you ignore everything in a paragraph and find one thing to jump on. You attack with buzz words, but don't attack the person's argument.

[PaltryExcuse]

furthermore, you could've just point blank asked saber if he had it. rather than expressing the willingness to waste the pov for that purpose. And I do think that willing to waste the pov to counterclaim is WAY scummier than willingness to use pov in a week 1 situation.

Why?

[PaltryExcuse]

furthermore, you could've just point blank asked saber if he had it. rather than expressing the willingness to waste the pov for that purpose. And I do think that willing to waste the pov to counterclaim is WAY scummier than willingness to use pov in a week 1 situation.

Why?

Asking questions is less scummy than assuming?

He had ample opportunity to claim he didn't have it. He basically says that he doesn't have it later on, and I repeatedly say that he doesn't have it. The people assuming he had it was not me. It was others.
My point was, if he claimed to have it, put us both up, and we've caught him in a lie as I'll use the PoV to take myself off.
Secondly, he let people believe he had it when he didn't. Sly directly asks who he should put up if Saber PoV's himself. And yet saber says nothing to dissuade him from thinking so. He doesn't outright say he doesn't have it until later, and then the situation is dropped.
What did I assume? And what did the others assume? I don't recall assuming anything. I challenged saber to claim he had the PoV and then for Sly to put us up in response.

[PaltryExcuse]

I think it would've told us saber was lying, if he did claim to have it. Town has no reason to lie, scum does. I think it would indicate Saber was scum.

Why is a willingness to use the veto scummy? If I have a power, and I know I'm town, I will use it for what I believe is a town cause. Should I be afraid to use it?

[PaltryExcuse]

I don't think it was that fact that you were willing. I think it's the fact that you actually did so early in the game on what was essentially a foregone conclusion (lynch Sens over KMD) and effectively wasted a POV that could be used to a better end by town later in the game.

Certainly that's how it sits for me.

I agree that it was a rather hasty use, however for me the foregone conclusion was not a good conclusion.

[PaltryExcuse]

Could you please describe 1 good reason why scum would use POV quickly and early to save a townie when they could serve their team better by easily passing it to one of their scumbuddies for later use in the case that one of their team ended up on the block?

Under the guise of working for the town, scum decides to pov a candidate that many see as pro-town. In a moment of confusion, scum then looks good for going against the hoh (whom many think is scum).

Don't forget that to get HoH, scum must look like they are acting in the town's interest as much as possible.

I think using the pov was paltry's misguided attempt to look better AND waste a pov when it was unnecessary, but still make it look like the pov was used in pro-town benefit.

Mostly, I think paltry used the pov to make himself look better, when it really wasn't used to the full benefit of the town.

I do not think that scum would bother pov their own scumbuddy unless they had support from the town. It makes things too obvious. I think scum are more likely to bus than appear obvious in this setup (2 scum teams plus the whole HoH thing)

In the first bb mafia, scum did nothing to indicate their own partners - did not send each other the pov, did not make a buddy hoh and put each other down. the place where bussing was less likely to occur was when it came to actual votes.

At this point, it comes down to whether or not you believe my reasoning.
A) I said before the actual nominations that I would not like either of the nominees. For SensFan and kmd4390. So it's not a surprise I wouldn't have been happy with either nominee.
B) Thinking it's town vs. town, I veto the most pro-town in my mind, and the lynch that will give us less information.

I can't defend against the 'scum trying to look pro-town' but I will put forth the question of whether or not scum would go to such lengths so early in the game. Although pablito asked this question originally that started this discussion, I'm the one that dug it up and began it anew. Would scum put themselves into this position?
Did you think both were town? If not, why not try to get someone scummy on the block? If so, who?

[PaltryExcuse]

Yep. It is. But the main point of this is: What reason would I have for playing that way? I.E. Pretending I didn't have the PoV and then after you get HoH saying I have PoV. If you can answer this at any point, that'd be awesome.

I can see how playing that way could be advantageous. If you can draw out a falseclaim or even a hint at one, like Saber seemed to be implying, then you could save it and pass it on, OR use it in order to make a case against the person, as you are doing now.

That describes a situation where I'd hide my ownership of the PoV, not why I'd lie about when I got it.

---

Nominees

I've been trying to get some independent thought out of animorpherv1, but consistently been getting a regurgitation of other people's arguments. The only thing seemingly independent was his pressuring of SensFan, which was based on ridiculous claims (he replaced out, he was 'overdefensive'). These aren't scummy.

Sironigus would be my second nomination. This is because, when I go back and read him, it seems he does more clarification than actual scumhunting or progression in the slightest. For example, Post 709.

Oh wow.
From Page 14...

@Snowbunny regarding that question...

How is numbers bad when I'm trying to explain what someone else said? (which that someone else still didn't explain)... I even scratched it when I messed up right after.

The problem with the numbers stuff was that even if you got it right, it's hard to see it as helpful. It's just another indication of you explaining the game rather than playing it.

Thus, Sironigus was the first one to concretely suggest that the HoH not necessarily listen to the town. While others hinted that the HoH should not be a sheep, Sironigus put it into suggestion format. The intent seems good...that Sironigus wants to see the HoHs input without the players running the entire show during that timeperiod, but in honesty, it's tough to be the HoH and not show a single bit of input at the same time.

Arr- that's what it was. One HoH nominee and one town nominee. There is no way to isolate both of them.

So to suggest a concrete plan that allows the HoH to go against the will of the town (especially right after Mr Finch announced that this is particularly what could lead the town into failure)... I have to see this as suspicious. Furthermore, I'm surprised Mr Finch didn't call Sironigus out so early. Especially if I read this post carefully enough.

I think you're overexaggerating; it's not completely against the town. Besides, in order for the HoH candidate to be evicted, he needs to win the

support of the town.

Obviously if the HoH candidate is townish, the town candidate is probably going to be evicted anyway.

Both of these just explain game mechanics.

When Sironigus is called out for talking about independent thought, then backs off quite quickly into obscurity. Sironigus seems to be laying back so early for thinking that he had a nice little suggestion going on early. Says a lot of words without really having a stance on anything. Also, there's this weird post in which Sironigus asks for clarification on something about lurkers...and it almost reads as if Sironigus is defending against a future allegation that he himself is a lurker.

This is more over the discussion of what HoH actually is... I'll keep my beliefs with that, you guys can keep yours...
(i.e. - Tracker - to find power roles or catch mafia)

This doesn't really defend against the main problem Pablito has with your posts, it doesn't even identify it. You argued on the independence of the HoH earlier, but the problem at hand is how you back off so quickly and basically say nothing.

Presented up distracting numbers nonsense. Has given some absolutely stupid reasons for some of his stances.

AHH.

Numbers was ONE post that I quickly took back after. GEEZ, I didn't even try to fix it.

---

I was pretty o_O with KMD nomination...

---

DisCode nominee was sudden also.

On DisCode/BV vs. SensFan/Hewitt...

I'm more likely to vote for Hewitt now, based on Sensfan.

Right now the only thing DisCode has on him is his initial posts.. and that post BV made.

There is very little opinion here, and offers no reason as to why he believes hewitt because of SensFan. Comments on the 'sudden' DisCode nomination which had already got Sly in trouble.

---

Did I stutter? I wanted you on the block because

1 - I think YOU are scum

. Since I didn't think that would be successful, I went for the guy you wanted in power because if you are scum wanting a lurker in power, that

2-suggest HE might be scum too.

1 - @SlySly - if DisCode turns town, would that change your view on Llama?
2 -... That's stretching it. Don't like this reasoning at all.

Ugh, that was bleh. I probably missed a bunch of info.

Question 1 is a legitimate question, as DisCode's nomination was due to Sly's suspicions on Llama. Question 2 is something that has been said before. This is one of his longer posts, and it really provides no insight into Sironigous. It leaves most of how he feels at this point up in the air, and the things he does comment on have little or no explanation.

Long story short:

Vote: animorpherv1

for having little to do with the progression of thought in the game. Seems to avoid giving anything remotely independent.

Vote: Sironigous

for coasting without pinpointing anyone, and copying others' thoughts when he does come up with ideas.

[PaltryExcuse]

Calling the quick use "playstyle" could be a cover for Paltry.

Paltry had POV at the start of the game.

Assuming Paltry is scum, the plan of using it quickly if any buddies were put on the block to prevent such information being revealed, could have easily been discussed with the person being saved from the block instructed to present the exact "playstyle" argument that you have presented.

Paltry, why did you wait so long after I made this post to make the false claim of when you received the HoH?

Leading question much? You can call it a falseclaim, but I still got the PoV just after you got HoH. Honestly, I missed it during my catch up after my V/LA.

You should have posted your claim immediately after I made this post. If you say you didn't see it, not reading the thread = scumtell. kmd never disputed this theory either.

It was one line in a WoT. Like I said, I was catching up at the time and was focusing more on getting out my town read on SensFan. Missing one line in an entire game is not 'not reading the thread'. That's a gross exaggeration.

After some ISO scans, I want the following:
-Pablito's detailed thoughts on Animorph
-Paltry's reasons for going from a huge town read on Sly to an apparent scum read, yet no nom vote on Sly.

If you have noticed, I haven't said that I think Sly is scum guaranteed. I still haven't decided if I think Sly is loopy or scummy. I am leaning towards scummy, however, I think Sir and Ani or more definitely scum. They tread the middle ground so often it's insane. Sly's high on the list, but he's not first or second for me... despite the fact I don't understand his behaviour and find him annoying at times.

[PaltryExcuse]

Paltry, an the ISO scan, I went to your posts and hit ctrl+f and typed in "Sly". Everything I read in the beginning looked like a boner-hard town read on him. At the point in the game where people start to turn on Sly, your mentioning of Sly is all questioning and criticizing him. Maybe you don't directly call him scummy (until your wishy washy answer just now), but it's clear you've dropped your hard town read. My question to you still stands. Why?

It was obvious that I wasn't happy with the nominations (see everything that happened), but I'm not afraid of a little bit of independence. The problem laid with why DisCode was nominated. DisCode was nominated due to one line by Sly's most scummy target. It was a ludicrous nomination based on very little. He hadn't been around for awhile, and I really read it as stifling conversation by nominating someone for another's actions and someone who I thought was slowly progressing to abandoning the site with a quick look at his most recent posts. Then, the reasons why others found him suspicious seemed to ring more true.

All in all, it was DisCode's nomination that I didn't like.

[PaltryExcuse]

I'm going to be very busy until the 23rd. I'll post then. Sorry about the delay. Personal things have come up.

[PaltryExcuse]

I find it interesting that your entire view of his posting has changed from positive to negative though. If I were to put + and - signs by your implied opinion of him each time you mention him, the beginning of the game would be nothing but + while everything after a certain point becomes -. It doesn't look like something that one action naturally causes. Not much changed in Sly's posting, so it's all the way you percieve him or want us to think you percieve him. I find it very interesting.

I think it was very much a progression thing. The first thing that I didn't like was his conversation with SensFan. SensFan came off pro-town to me, and Sly had previously. Their reasons for suspecting each other seemed odd, and I was vocal here and here that I Sly was the best of the three final choices town seemed to be making. I chose to stay on a bandwagon, and that bandwagon was Sly's.
Here, I state that I don't like Sly already designing possible scum teams. It is the beginning of me really not following or liking Sly's logic.
From then on I start questioning Sly's logic, I use the veto as I thought both you and hewitt to be town, and Sly's replacement nominee is put up with ridiculous reasons. At this point, I find him scummy.

I'm going to

Vote: Snow_Bunny

Sly was scummy for the following reason for the most part for me:
Sly's DisCode nomination still rankles me. If you thought Llama was scum, you should've put him up. Would hewitt have been lynched? I don't know. You say I cut off the conversation that would have happened of kmd vs. SensFan because of my veto, well you negated Llama vs. SensFan. Either way, DisCode was put up for ridiculous reasons.
However, Sly has been scumhunting, and willingly put himself on the line with his nominations. Secondly, in many ways, Sly has been rapidly voted as the lynch today. Few questions were asked to Snow_Bunny, and she got away without telling us much. Snow_Bunny's activity has been minimal, and as has been stated only really talks when talked to.
So, Snow_Bunny:
The reasons why people wanted you lynched (not much scumhunting, goes with group) are similar to the reasons why you want your two, remaining prime suspects lynched, Ani and Sironigus. If they're scummy, why aren't you? Basically, what have you done differently that sets you apart from these two?

[PaltryExcuse]

Paltry is obviously Sly's scumbuddy.

Why exactly? The guy wanted me lynched since Day 1 when I vetoed his nomination.

[PaltryExcuse]

My Noms:

Vote: Animorpherv1

I can re-iterate what I and others have said, but the guy has provided little to nothing. He comes in and nominates Kast... oddly enough. The reasoning? Others are pro-town, and Kast is a random choice. At this point, you're going with a random choice? That's dangerous.

Vote: Sironigous

A) I still don't think he's provided much in the way of scumhunting.
B) Upon looking back, I really don't like his reasons for wanting SensFan nominated.

Sensfan - expecting someone other than SlySly to be nominated for HoH after coming back to the game less than 2 days before deadline. The fact he's attacking SlySly now makes it even worse. (of course, this might change after he answers my previous post)

SensFan wanted to get someone else nominated for HoH because of his opinion on SlySly (which has been revealed to be correct). It's not like when you

need

a lynch on Day 1 and everyone begins bandwagoning. This was a nom for HoH, and SensFan wanted SlySly up for eviction. I don't see how either of these reasons were legitimate for a nomination.

To my best friend for life, Kmd4390:

Paltry is obviously Sly's scumbuddy.

Why exactly? The guy wanted me lynched since Day 1 when I vetoed his nomination.

He was distancing.

It's more the way you completely turned your stance on him when he started to take heat.

I don't think that pre-SensFan blow up SlySly is the same as post. Why?
Initially, he agreed with me on valuing scumhunting over meta, which many were voting on.
He was scumhunting, and asking pointed questions.
Before, he had saber as a nom, as well as possibly SensFan.

His reaction to SensFan coming back was atrocious.
He then nominated people who I thought were pro-town, almost completely disregarding anything anyone else had said.
Upon the veto, he put up another 'lurker' / flaker because of unconfirmed 'connections' by a player he actually wanted to put up.
Basically, when SlySly started playing out his hand, I changed my opinion on him, and it wasn't as sudden as you'd like to think. When he was up I still had wishy-washy feelings on the guy. I couldn't decide if he was irrational town or scum.

I want everyone's thoughts on Paltry ASAP

He's awesome-sauce and I know he's town.

[PaltryExcuse]

Ok, so Sly/Paltry/Finch make up the Chenbots.

No. Just no.
A) You claim that there was no reason for my change in opinion on Sly / it was a drastic shift. I've given you my reasons, and shown it was not a drastic shift.
B) You claim that Sly was distancing himself for me by using the EXACT arguments he was using against me. That I used the veto in some elaborate scheme from the pre-game, and that I only did it to look pro-town.
C) You ignore the likely possibility that instead of targetting or ignoring his scumbuddies, he put them in neutral positions.

Why would scum willingly put themselves at the forefront of EVERY MAJOR DECISION early on in the game? It just seems foolhardy. In a game with 14 people, and no night phases, scum has to last multiple lynches and what you are proposing says that the Chenbots willingly put their entire team on the line for some risky gamble. A risky gamble that could be easily seen through. You haven't tried to dispute my arguments about how my reasoning on Sly is logical, only re-stating that I have to be because you said so.

Sly's case on a kmd/Paltry scum team:
1) Paltry used the veto on kmd.
2) kmd's attack on Paltry was distancing.

Kmd's case on a Sly/Paltry scum team:
1) Paltry used the veto.
2) Sly's attack on Paltry was distancing.

Was Sly so transparent as to reveal this massive gameplan to the entire game?

Ask yourself: Why did Sly pass you, Kmd, the HoH out of everyone else?

@Kmd: Who'd you pass the veto to? A.K.A.: Who has the veto?

[PaltryExcuse]

Paltry,

to A:
I didn't say there was no reason. I think the reason is that he started to take heat and you didn't want to look bad defending your buddy.
to B:
Meh. I'm not too sure about the veto, but it does fit with Sly's style to put up bad noms knowing that you had the veto and then attack you expecting to be lynched hoping to make you come out looking better or something stupid like that.

So it also fits in Sly's style to reveal this veto using strategy to the whole town? That's the thing. You're assuming that Sly not only used this strategy but then told the whole town what he was doing by blaming you for it instead.

to C:
Who do you think classifies as a "neutral position" from Sly's points of view?

Mr. Finch: Sly never said much about him, and seemed to agree with him at times and others not so much. They kept a distance.
Sironigous: He was labelled a VI by Sly. After that, contact is non-existent and doesn't even really respond to Sironigous.

In response to your "cases":
Try again. It's your turnaround stance on Sly that mostly has me sold. Sly didn't help things though by assuming in every attack he made that scum distance/bus all the time and he was attacking you kind of softly.

Why I got HoH:
Don't know, don't care. It doesn't help me personally to try to figure that out.

My 'turnaround stance' is:
A) Logical from a town point of view.
B) Much more gradual than you keep implying.

And how was his attack soft?
He repeatedly attacked me, tried to make a case, and then nominated me for a lynch. Others have questioned me also (Hewitt, Pablito) and then not even nominated me. In comparison to him, they were soft.

[PaltryExcuse]

I woulnd't be surprised to see Sly do that.

You must have missed the part where I said Finch is Sly's other buddy.

Nah, I didn't. I agreed with you about Finch, that Sly treated him neutrally. It is just more of a curiosity of why you missed Sly's treatment of Sironigous is all. I don't think Sir is a VI, and considering Zwet and Saber (with Zwet's anti-play and saber's... whatever) were still in the game I thought it was odd, no?

Your turnaround is more logical from a scum point of view than town. And it isn't gradual. Ctrl+F "Sly" in your ISO posts. Put a + next to the positive comments and a - next to the negative ones. It looks something like +++++++++++--------------. Gradual would be more like +++++--+--+-+------------. That's not what it is though. At one point it switches straight from positive to negative.

Not every time I talk about Sly are things distinctly positive or negative. It's easy enough to see that it goes from positive, to neutral, to negative. The middle ground is also possible, and if you include it, I say it's gradual.

Hewitt and Pablito are still alive. Sly has flipped scum. If I'm going to act based on connections I see, they will be connections to Sly. (Otherwise, I'd have already suggested evicting Pablito/Animorph, but I haven't even mentioned that connection until now while proving my point).

I just mentioned them in comparison to Sly's behaviour towards me. You said it was soft (which has been revoked), and I was trying to show you it was anything but.

On Paltry? Can't say I find something suspicious on her. I think the use of the POV was a good call (it could be a well designed gambit, but too much wifom for me to go down there). Kmd, why you assume that's one of the scum groups? What are the reasons behind that call?

I'm not a girl. See symbol below the moose crossing picture...
And seeing as Kmd's main focus for the past page has been me and this connection, I'm surprised you have to ask.

[PaltryExcuse]

Actually Snow, about Llama, you said you were unable to elaborate before. What is it about Llama that you find scummy?

[PaltryExcuse]

Yeah, right now I'm leaning Paltry/Crazy as my noms in hopes of evicting Paltry. I'll wait until right before deadline so we can get more discussion in first, but right now, plan on those noms.

So, you're basically deciding for the entire town now Kmd? I mean, you got such authority through amazing means... scum nominating you for the power.
And about your choices in nominees: How is this any different than the first nominations by Sly himself? There were two nominees: 1 with a case lined up on them, and another without one. As people noted AFTER my veto, it was most likely a clear landslide against the one who had a case on them. So yes, I firmly suspect to be evicted against Crazy. Especially since the most damning thing against him so far is your gut.
If I am lynched, and I flip town, what then?
You're not some vigilante using powers from the mod, you were installed by the only confirmed scum in the game and are unilaterally trying to decide for the town.

Overall: Put two people up who, with some semblance of evidence, you believe is scum.

[PaltryExcuse]

I can tell you why the mod told him. The other was Kmd. Kmd is claiming he got a town pm.

[PaltryExcuse]

I'll be on when I can to post a PBPA. Otherwise, I will be nursing this hangover.

[PaltryExcuse]

Sorry, personal stuff came up. I'll try to be on later with at least what I've done of the PBPA.

[PaltryExcuse]

Wow, so life sucks. Getting sick, moving back for school, preparing for school... being nominated could not have come at a worse time. Then, my laptop breaks. Goodie. Long story short: I've lost most of my mammoth post I was preparing... SO! Here starts a more summarized post, and not as indepth as I once wished to have.

To prevent the same from happening again, as I take a break from writing/researching, I'll post. After I've done everyone, I'll reflect and give an overall "Most Scummy => Least Scummy".

Animorpherv1

Reading him in ISO is a strange and confusing thing.
A) Ani seems to do relatively no scumhunting. Hard to give a post where this happens, as it's read nearly everywhere.
B) When he does come up with a conclusion, that conclusion is often questionable. I could go on about his conclusion on SensFan again after he flaked, but instead bring this post about Sly up:

@ Paltry:
Nice find with the PoV. Everyone who is voting SlySly may want to take a look at his post under it. It shows that he can be maniuplated easily, which is not a good quality for HoH.

Whuzza? Nice find with the Veto? I guess if reading the rules is a nice find. Sly is manipulated easily? PULEASE! The guy went off on a tangent all by his lonesome and it got him evicted. Craziness.
C) And just amazingly honest, yet scummy things.

@kmd:

Yup. Being ignored in this game (to a point) seems like a good idea. It keeps you off the radar and less likley to be up for elimination.

Oh. Yeah. Not participating is a good thing.
The two points for him, in my mind at this time, is that he's played more Mish Mash games than he ever has played mafia games. The guy doesn't play mafia. So... newb read perhaps? Secondly, he went against the all-town initiative against saber to get him evicted early on.
I dunno though. Not looking around scares me into thinking he's complacent because he knows one scum team already. Scummy vibe.

bv310/saberwolf

not to be confused with bv310/DisCode

Saberwolf's early behaviour I originally thought was a front for later scummy behaviour. This was poor judgment. After the bet with Animorpherv1 came out, it was obvious that his antics were more fueled for personal gain of having one less game to deal with, rather than actually playing the game. Saber did say a couple things towards the game:

If scum are lurking, then it means that they are satisfied with either:

1. who is going to be HoH [suggests scum]

2. the know that the two being put up arent of their faction, which would be worrisome.

However, this kind of post is far outnumbered by anti-town, anti-game play.

bv310 came in and started differently then when he was DisCode. Not badly, but actually an improvement. He understandably defended himself as DisCode and being up for nomination, but entered with 4 questions about recent comments. But he doesn't post much. Really at all. The only other scum hunting that was done was that ridiculous line of posting about Kmd getting a PM from the mod... about Kmd. He's done less than Snowbunny and many others and just seems to be sliding by. With saber's play, you can't really generate a read. With bv310's play, all I see is relative inactivity and no scumhunting. Scummy read.

Taking a food break. Be back later.

[PaltryExcuse]

Crazy

I'm not gonna lie, I find the guy pro-town. His thoughts have been independent, such as the first to pursue Sly was him.

@Sly - You seem to be trying to make Llama slip up and contradict himself, with no real case other than that.

Let me ask you: Why would Llama supporting Kmd over you be scummy? You said it yourself - both you and Kmd have saber as your primary suspect; if Llama was scum, why would it matter to him who becomes HoH if saber is dead either way?

Personally, I am also favoring Kmd as HoH because I like his secondary choices (Snowbunny, in particular). I realize that saber is still probably dead anyway, but there's not a whole lot I can do about that.

@Mr Finch - That was a really weird post. What do you have against voting for someone?

This post is littered with inspection into another, and is generally a leading cause to people finding Sly scummy in my eyes. Secondly, Kmd was the first to mention Snowbunny as possible scum, however in this post is Crazy reaffirming an earlier belief of Snowbunny's scumminess. Overall, this is just an example of why I would think a vote against Crazy would be seemingly crazy. He has lead town thought towards one scummy individual, and if you think Snow is scum he's led you to another. What more could you ask for? Pro-town read.
This is another prime example (and also hilarious to read.

About him being overdefensive: I'd prefer townies did get defensive. I want them to defend themselves and fight to the last (as I'm trying to do now). If he's town, and overdefensive: awesome. I doubt I'll ever be convinced overdefensiveness is a scumtell. Ever.

I have to ask however: Do you still find Mr. Finch scummy?
Now that Kmd has deviated immensly from the town, do you think Kmd is scummy?

hewitt/SensFan

My thoughts on SensFan are located here. 'I remember reading it, tell me the result': a pro-town read.

hewitt is interesting. In his first post:
A) He admits to seeing a connection between SensFan and animorph
B) Calls SlySly one of the most likely floaters
C) Semi-attacks Kmd
It's hard to know what to think about this.
However, I really think the kmd and DisCode nominations were attempts to get hewitt out. The DisCode nomination backfired, and got him evicted.
When and where did your read of SlySly change? Especially considering this:

*snip Talk with Kast*

I don't like this at all. And it's not the usual town Llama I remember (though my memory is always blurry). Setting up lynches for coming days? And setting up the lynches with easy ones? That's as pro-town as outing mason partners on D1. This little part of your post makes me doubt of your towniness, and maybe Sly was right about you. I know my scumhunting is as good as it should be, I reckon, but I recognize a scum post when I see it.

Do you even understand the concept of this game? We will be having ONE person deciding which two players will be up for eviction tomorrow and that means that we should all know who everybody plans on nominating if they're tapped for HoH tomorrow to see if they deviate. You are purposely trying to twist that around and it's utter bullshit.

Why exactly? The guy wanted me lynched since Day 1 when I vetoed his nomination.

Hello...it's called distancing 101.

That's very interesting that SlySly flipped Chenbot. Honestly I really thought he was going to flip floater, I'm very pleasantly surprised. Okay so based off SlySly's interactions with the rest of the group I'm going to vote to nominate

Vote: Mr Finch

Vote: Snow Bunny

Mr Finch was very generally off SlySly's radar the entire game (and SlySly flung accusations all across the board) and Mr Finch was actually defending SlySly at times. That combined with the weak bussing (understatement of the year in my opinion) at the end and the mutual dodging around each other I think Finch is the most likely candidate to be one of SlySly's partners.

I'd nominate Snow Bunny to go up against Finch because A) I can't stand her, B) I think she's dodgy scum, and C) I'm still think that players were defending her in their votes for SlySly.

It's kind of crazy when you look at the players who voted to evict SlySly vs. the players who voted to evict Snow Bunny. Truly the four most level-headed, most likely to be floater players all voted Snow Bunny. And on the SlySly wagon you've got the most anti-town seeming player of the game, the player most likely to be on a scumteam with SlySly, a player who replaced a very dubious former player and is fond of slinging crap, a player who I get a concerning overly defensive vibe from, another player who replaced an even more dubious former player, and a player who I really don't even think reads this game before commenting.

It's really interesting.

You nominated a floater (or someone you thought as such)? Is this the town's nom while Snow was your nom?... I'm confused about you now. However, hewitt has scumhunted, been active, and said many things I feel myself nodding to. So: Neutral leaning-town read.

[PaltryExcuse]

@animorpherv1: My point is that it is rare you try to scumhunt, and when you do, your conclusions seem illfounded (Sly was not easily manipulated by my read of his actions) or just illogical (SensFan was scummy because he flaked).

More later.

[PaltryExcuse]

Kast/zwetschenwasser

Zwet: Useless. Inexplicable. Scumtastic. 8 posts over a long period of time that give no explanation.

Kast's entrance post, although a PBPA, is uninformative. He says the most about yours truly, and gives a pro-town read (yay!) but for pretty much everyone else give neutral reads. Everyone minus Sly and town-supported lynch Animorpherv1. I... would've liked to see a bit more indepth analysis and opinion.
Plus, I have to wonder where his opinion changed for this to come up:

@Llama-
Even if we end up with a full mafia B team and a single mafia A member, we would still have to lynch the most probable scum, even if that player "claimed" to be the last remaining mafia A. For mafia A, he would definitely still lose the game (either by failing to hit mafia B or after a mafia B member is lynched) if he claims. If the town obeys your strategy and spares the player who claims, then we've just handed mafia B a get out of jail free card that could let them flat out win.

@AM-
Your statement doesn't match with your actions. You don't actually care about opinions, you just want to attack players who don't post that frequently, regardless of whether the posts they have made had content (opinions) or not.

Stating you didn't know I had coup d'etat is a BS excuse. If you are scum, you're obviously lying. You're pretty obv-scum.

@Hewitt-
I initially posted that your SB nom as HoH was weird, to which you FALSELY claimed that SB has been your top pick even over Sly. You mentioned SB once on replacing in, then completely dropped her from your suspects while Sly was picking a replacement to be lynched instead of you. After the replacement was picked, you added SB back, but just as a "pawn" to go against your top choice Sly.

@KMD-
Neither of those two are my top suspects, but I would vote PE over Crazy. I find Crazy's play so far to be more pro-town than PE's, though neither of them are coming across as scummy.

@Crazy-

And think of it, Sly had to be doing SOMETHING when he nominated DisCode! Why else would he do something that made him look like total scum? I'm not sure if Kast is the answer to that question, but that question has to have SOME answer, right? What do you think?

On re-read, the most likely answer is that he was defending saber who was supposedly his top suspect.

He'd vote me over Crazy! But I was at the top of his pro-town list before! Damn. Well, that change of opinion has got me rankled as he hasn't said anything about me previously, so I don't know how Crazy became more pro-town than me. Secondly, it is also reminiscent of every scumhunting post of Kast's post SlySly: attack Ani, attack Hewitt.
On the subject of who Sly was protecting Day 1, I'd wager it was zwet. Sorry, but I would.
Reason 1: It was either saber, ani, or zwet. They were the three repeatedly being pushed to be put up.
Reason 2: I don't think Sly would mention his buddies repeatedly before his nominations... and then not put him up. It's too obvious of a coincidence. I'm ruling out saber.
Reason 3: Ani made a comment against Sly early on. I don't see Ani bussing day 1 if he is scum.
Reason 4: One of zwet's few comments in the game was supporting Sly, here.
I'm leaning scum on this one.

BEST FRIEND!!!!!

(aka Kmd4390)

I just want to say a few things, in the likely case I am evicted today:
1) Re-read me. Please. I think you've read all of my posts since very early on as scummy and your opinions are geared in that direction.
2) Arguing with you has been very enjoyable, and I hope to play with you again.
3) PLEASE! FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT'S PIZZA, RE-READ ME.

Kmd was one of the few people who began this game scumhunting. Unfortunately, it was against a townie... me. We argued, and debated. And really, I felt his case was plain wrong. Then he got nominated. I, to my own future detriment, vetoed him. I had a town read on both him and Sens, and I saved him... (Oh, by the way, the connection that Kmd thought DisCode had to someone was me. DisCode nominated me for HoH pre-Day 1. Just in case you're wondering.)

This guy has a bad case of tunnel-vision. Ever since he first laid eyes on my posts he knew I had to be scum. [sarcasm]I doubt my flip will convince him I'm scum, and I bet he'll assume that it's some bastard mod tactic that changes my flip.[/sarcasm]

He attacks Snow_bunny.
He questions Llama and Animorph.
He questions pablito.
Really, he gives his opinion without being asked, and gives reasons. He shows independence, and this response is awesome. Despite it accusing me again. I used my veto for the same reasons. I didn't think either nominee was scum and wanted them changed and didn't care about the town's reasoning (though I should've let them express it first, I rushed things).

Why I think SlySly nominated Kmd:
A) Kmd would nominate me.
B) Kmd is independent enough to go against town to nominate me.
I would have been more than surprised if I wasn't nommed by Kmd today. What actually surprised me more was the Crazy nom, with only a gut reasoning. Sure, it's to get me evicted, but Kmd is smart enough to know where his gut is coming from with an ISO read.

If you want to read why I don't think I'm scum, read the game. Seriously, it has been talked about enough.

I can't shake this feeling. So, (unbelievably): I have a Town read on Kmd. After writing that sentence I feel like I'm smacking my face against the wall...

[PaltryExcuse]

To make sure I understand you Paltry, your case against me is that I don't post much, right?

My case against you deals more with I don't see you scumhunting, and your inactivity compounds the fact you don't seem to need to. It's not a strong case, I'll admit, but you don't really give much to work with at all, and that scares me.
And more people are coming. (I guess I'm posting in twos, but it's definitely alphabetical order, and not of scumminess.)

[PaltryExcuse]

Holy crap I suck at alphabetical order... I skipped Llama.

[PaltryExcuse]

To make sure I understand you Paltry, your case against me is that I don't post much, right?

My case against you deals more with I don't see you scumhunting, and your inactivity compounds the fact you don't seem to need to. It's not a strong case, I'll admit, but you don't really give much to work with at all, and that scares me.
And more people are coming. (I guess I'm posting in twos, but it's definitely alphabetical order, and not of scumminess.)

Ok, sorry about that. Didn't look at timing of your posts.

As for my lack of posting, the last three weeks have been weird for me access-wise. I didn't want to give excuses though, so I didn't say anything. Other than that, I haven't really seen anything to go on that hasn't already been said. This is only my third Mafia game so I don't know what to look for. I know this sounds like an excuse, but I want to be straightforward here.

Also also, I thought you said you were going most scummy to least scummy, not alphabetical.

No, I prefer you were straightforward. This is actually only my 4th game, so the newbie excuse can't work with me. But, I understand feeling overwhelmed and access problems (see recently, plus using my roomie's comp now).
In case it wasn't clear: I'll give a list of who I think is most scummy => least scummy after I have given out all of my reads.

I'm really mentally drained, so I'm taking a break from this again. Give me a couple hours, depending on if my roomie needs his compy then.

[PaltryExcuse]

Calm down. Your emotional outbursts and insults are a sharp deviation from your previous behavior and are reminiscent of your predecessor's (SensFan) typical anti-game MO. Your attempt to distract from arguments by insulting are textbook ad hom.

Examples of ad hom would be appreciated.

Your decision to nom me in the event that you become HoH after I didn't back down from pointing out your inconsistencies and potential scumtells is classic OMGUS.

Initially you acknowledged my points and said I was entitled to my opinion (read: you tried to appease me). When this failed, you added me as your top nom NOT because of anything I have done, but simply because I have the coup d'etat. The only reason you provide is a blatant example of fearmongering.

-Using possession of the Coup d'etat as the reason for nominating Kast allows a scum HoH to absolve themselves from actual scumhunting and from any responsibility if the day ends with a mislynch.

-Preserving the Coup d'etat power allows town to test Kast if a situation arises where a scum-HoH reveals himself.

Although the first could be true, the second is a false situation. If the entire town thinks that the HoH is scum, then you using the Coup d'Etat is appeasement.

-If scum-Kast used coup d'etat in any situation other than immediate game win, it would have to be used in a pro-town manner OR it would result in scum-Kast being lynched the following day (and almost definitely reveal one scumbuddy). This has been pointed out multiple times.

-Hewitt's fearmongering situation is almost impossible to enter into. In order for scum-Kast to survive after using Coup d'etat, scum-Kast must either have a teammate who will be nominated as HoH (and no PoV active) OR scum-Kast must be part of mafia B with ALL members alive and use Coup d'etat on Day 8.

-Any other use of Coup d'etat must happen in a pro-town manner, which would STILL draw attention to Kast, regardless of Kast's affiliation.

How I feel about the Coup d'Etat and PoV? If you think the noms suck, you try to change them. If you think both are town, you try and change them.

-From just the odds, having a townie with Coup d'etat power who can save the town in the event that Mafia B is HoH on Day 8 is equivalent to Hewitt's fearmongering situation in which a member of Mafia B receives and uses Coup d'etat power on Day 8.

True enough. The only reason I'd want you nommed is if I thought you were scum in order to force you to use the power on town's terms, not your terms.

@PE-
Crazy is actually attempting to scumhunt today. I defended your previous decision to use the PoV, although I disagreed with your decision to use it. I don't think that it was inherently scummy, but it certainly wasn't a town indicator.

You are also a more information rich lynch as a result of more interactions with other players. While unlikely, it is also still possible that kmd's suspicions of you could turn out to be true.

Neither of you are an ideal choice; but it is a complete misrepresentation to claim that I find either of you to be extremely likely to be town (or even likely enough town that you are worth saving).

That wasn't my point at all. My point was that in that first post you seemingly had me at most pro-town. That has since changed, and Crazy has now at the very least taken my place. I never said anything that you find me to be EXTREMELY pro-town, or anything about being saved. I wondered when Crazy became less worth voting for than yours truly, something I don't feel that has been addressed.

@Christmas/New Year/Winter Break Period-
Nobody should be held scummy for less access during the past two weeks. Holidays are busy for everyone and there's nothing wrong with spending time with family and friends.

Also, I'll be out of town from Wednesday til Sunday. I should have intermittent access during this time.

If this is directed at me and my thing with bv, I've taken that into consideration.


...I should focus on my list.

[PaltryExcuse]

So I actually succeeded at alphabetical order, and then got it wrong later. I suck.

LlamaFluff

In all honesty, pre-day 1, I thought you were the most pro-town. I would've gladly nominated you for HoH when you started participating but didn't due to the deadline (instead I nominated Sly! Good decision!).
He pressured people who weren't making a decision on HoH, or who's decision for HoH seemed to be having little meaning.
He questioned animorph early on, asked for better explanations from others, and really just seemed to be playing logically.
Day 1 was good play again, with him showing Sly how his actions seemed to have made an 'anti-lynch' rather than a lynch. Town was trying to decide who was more so.
He was absent for much of Day 2, so there isn't much to read.
What bothers me is day 3. He just says he dislikes stuff. Or likes stuff. Or prefers certain things. I haven't really seen a case on anyone for awhile. I see his positions alot, but I don't see his reasonings. Things I don't know the answers to (that I'd reeeeally like to):
1) Why do you think both me and Crazy are townish? (This is actually unanswered by

many

, and doesn't make me happy in the slightest.)
2) Do you feel stronger or weaker about Ani being likely scum? Has he done anything recently that could've changed your mind?
3) You've argued about the use of the Coup d'Etat, but do you think Kast is town?
4) Why not name the other 5 people you want lynched over me? No reason to hold that information back now?

Overall, Llama has scumhunted, but I don't know if I know anything about his reasonings. I feel there's a knowledge gap. My read depends more on how he answers my questions. So: Neutral read. I surprised myself when it came to this conclusion.

Mr. Finch

Mr. Finch scared me pre-day 1 with his nomination of SensFan for HoH. At the time, SensFan had the post about using PJ's Kingmaker strategy... and that was it. Then when pressured, Finch unvoted.

What in this game gave you this impression?

Ya know what? In this game, I really don't know. I might be getting myself confused with the other game.

Have scanned all the previous posts in this game he's only posted one game related (rather than game setup) post in post 79 where he was talking about what he'd do if he were nominated HoH.

I know he's posting elsewhere on the site so has he forgotten the game, or is he lurking scum?

Un-nominate

MOD: I realise that we must vote for eviction or face modkilling, does the same apply for HOH nom?

I will

nominate: Discode

because since joining the game this player has posted the most comprehensive questions and reasoning, trying to keep discussion going and outing the scum. I feel that this is Town behaviour and Discode will do a good job of listening to town when nominating the evictees.

It has rankled me since. Why? I finally figured it out. It is not because he unvoted so quickly, but because he seemed to have no idea who he was voting for. Why would he throw a nomination out there if he hadn't even read the thread? What was the original nomination for? I DON'T KNOW.

From then on, I get the feeling he's following a bit, thing is he admits it.
He suspects Animorpherv (join the club), he suspected Sly (join a different club), he suspects Snow_bunny (another club). None of these suspicions were brought up by him, and really I don't see much talk about either Ani or Snow until he has to nominate (or decide whether to vote Sly / Snow_bunny).

Overall: Scummy.

[PaltryExcuse]

Note: For all those reading this, the unnamed posts are Kast quoting me.

My point was that in that first post you seemingly had me at most pro-town.

Not sure where you're drawing that from. In my first post, the only person I actually listed with a probable town was saber, and that was a weak read.

I had some suspects, I had a lot of neutral players, and I had 3 positive reads (one of which was gut town and was not you).

You had 2 suspects (Ani and Sly, the most universally agreed upon noms) 3 positives (me, Crazy, and saber) and the rest were neutral. Not a good post. There was nothing anyone could glean from it.

PE-Pro-town/positive/possible links. I don't agree with the decision to use the PoV right away, however, I understand the usage and it is a playstyle disagreement, not anything affiliation indicative. I don't think there is enough information available on D1 for any townie to accurately determine that two other players are so likely to be town that one of them should be veto'ed. Clearly PE thought differently.

That's my name beside pro-town.

Since then, Crazy has appeared to genuinely be scumhunting, although I disagreed with his conclusion from hunting. You have stayed pretty much the same.

And I've not been? I thought I was. Darn.

the second is a false situation. If the entire town thinks that the HoH is scum, then you using the Coup d'Etat is appeasement.

Refusal to use Coup d'etat would be scum indicative (fail the test), whereas agreement to use the Coup d'etat would be null. Your assumption about the second would be false, however, your assumption is not what I posted.

My point is: You earned the power, you decide when to use it. If it's to save yourself, fine. If it's not, fine. If you think scum is HoH, use it. If you think the nominees are both town, use it (more this one). If town pressures you to use it, and you disagree with their reasoning, DON'T use it. Your situation remains appeasement.

About Ad Hom:
Ad Hom involves insulting the individual and discrediting them for it. Same example I gave earlier: "They have a poor scumhunting record, so they must be wrong this game."
Calling a move stupid, or saying that if people did certain things in situations is stupid or shit, is insulting that situation. Needlessly aggressive? Yes. Ad hom? No.

[PaltryExcuse]

Oh, and Kast, please use names when quoting people.

[PaltryExcuse]

2) Arguing with you has been very enjoyable, and I hope to play with you again.

Heh, I actually have to agree.

Paltry, I have to admit I'm impressed with your last few posts. Especially seeing that this is your 4th game (:shock:) and then looking at your join date.

Thanks.

[PaltryExcuse]

pablito/Grandi/whoot1234

whoot's barely worth mentioning, but it is a chance for me to complain.
If anyone ever brings up whoot's reasonless posts as a point against pablito, I won't be happy. Whoot was a troll: see this game. He's playing under the pseudonym SirPent. Watch me go crazy. It's fun!

Grandi is almost as un-influential. However, Grandi created the famous HoH application of Day 0 that got so much press. Then he flaked. A pro-town move though so minor points go to the slot.

Pablito's opening posts are golden and give me good feelings. He goes after Snow and Sir, two previously infrequently mentioned individuals.
And if you want to know who found me originally scummy for using the PoV when I did, then look no further. And his reasoning is the best for it: He thought I was too willing to use it, which would be a scumtell. Honestly, I was a bit scared at the time, but felt immediately afterwards (and still do) that I did the right thing.
He attacks Finch, Sly, and animorpherv.

But, probably the most telling thing for me about Pab's alignment is when he thinks someone is townish, he actually tries to back it up.
On Llama
On Kast

Really, just reading pablito gives me a pro-town feel. However, he has waited, both times, for the vote to have caused a lynch before he has voted. I really feel he is wrong in his reads, and could be giving a skewed version of things (this remains firmly unverified and is more of a guess as to how he came to his reads). Overall: Pabs is Neutral-leaning town.

Sironigous

For this round of what does Paltry think, we're going to quote... PALTRY! (Because my re-reading has changed nothing.)
Post 345:

I don't see what [KMD sees] in Sironigous. Before his most recent post, he hadn't done anything that would lean me to think a scumhunter.

Read this unresponded post about Sironigous.

Vote: Sironigous

A) I still don't think he's provided much in the way of scumhunting.
B) Upon looking back, I really don't like his reasons for wanting SensFan nominated.

Sensfan - expecting someone other than SlySly to be nominated for HoH after coming back to the game less than 2 days before deadline. The fact he's attacking SlySly now makes it even worse. (of course, this might change after he answers my previous post)

SensFan wanted to get someone else nominated for HoH because of his opinion on SlySly (which has been revealed to be correct). It's not like when you

need

a lynch on Day 1 and everyone begins bandwagoning. This was a nom for HoH, and SensFan wanted SlySly up for eviction. I don't see how either of these reasons were legitimate for a nomination.

He has never said a thing about me attacking him, and pops in whenever he's prodded. 'Nuff said. Read: Scummy.

[PaltryExcuse]

Last, but not least...

Snow_bunny

It's hard to know what to make of Snow_bunny. Early on she seemed focused on how ridiculous saber's play was, but much of the town was (and his play was baaaad.) The thing was, I actually liked when she originally went out on a limb to nominate Sir originally. His numbers talk was distracting. A lot of her points are based on others, which she admits freely.
Do you suspect someone for behaviour they admit to (she doesn't come up with her own cases really, just agrees with others)?

Reading her in ISO early on just makes me think of a lazy player. Scummy, but lazy.

Recently she's been more forthright with her own opinions, but spends as much time explaining them as before.

I don't mind the Llama nomination at all actually. Nominating a generally thought to be a pro-town player, for not explaining themself? I looked into it. I kinda agree with her.

Her recent vote to save me, confuses me when she mentions that she called me pro-town. I don't remember that at all. (And as Crazy points out, she hadn't.)

Really, I get a lazy scum vibe.

---

I want to make a couple comments on how people are scumhunting and hopefully change things.
Firstly: Connections are well and good but case they do not make. They can lead you to searching up another person but really you're going to need more detail than that.
Secondly: If you're going to say someone is town, say why. Crazy found me town because he liked certain posts of mine. Pabs finds people town and says why. That way, if they flip scum, your thoughts on the situation are clearer and harder to back out from. Also, it makes it so people can discuss why you felt that way before they flip. So if they have problems with your reasoning, they'll say so.
Thirdly: The Coup d'Etat and PoV are only pro-town if in pro-town hands. If you think they aren't, GET RID OF THEM. It can be false power, or just plain anti-town in the wrong hands (especially the Coup d'Etat).

[PaltryExcuse]

MOST SCUMMY

Sironigous
Kast (I really didn't like his recent responses)
Mr. Finch
Animorpherv1
Snow Bunny
bv310
LlamaFluff
hewitt
pablito
Kmd
Crazy

LEAST SCUMMY

Long story short: I WANT Kast nominated.

[PaltryExcuse]

EBWOP:
And Sir, but that's been obvious for days I thought.

[PaltryExcuse]

Whuzza? Nice find with the Veto? I guess if reading the rules is a nice find. Sly is manipulated easily? PULEASE! The guy went off on a tangent all by his lonesome and it got him evicted. Craziness.

There's nary a mention that Sly was scum in this analysis on ani. It has little to do with ani, but umm...I could fathom that a scumpartner would word that sentence about his dead scum partner in that way.

It was an example of Ani's ridiculous claims. You can fathom a scumpartner saying it? I could fathom a scumpartner making sure he's pinpointed others as scumpartners.

His thoughts have been independent, such as the first to pursue Sly was him.

Yeah, but two scum teams. and stuff.

I really like Paltry's last posts, but not all of the thoughts and analyses are solid. They're real well done, but it's not damning evidence in his favour. I can't stop thinking that with opposing scum teams, good analyses and scumhunting is done by both scum teams as well.

True enough, but, scum also doesn't want to draw too much attention to themselves early game, especially since the earliest they can win is at the end of Day 8. For the Chenbots, it's now Day 10.

Paltry's language and his previous actions still give me doubt. I don't see Paltry as being more pro-town than anti-town right now. While these analyses are nice, it still didn't feel invasive either. Crazy's been hella impressing me recently with the way he asks questions - not just the content of the questions. I fear Paltry is pro-town, but it's not enough for me to consider vetoing either player.

This is particularly kinda why I was against Paltry's willingness to use veto all this time. It makes it all the harder to be willing to make the veto expire on the second use. Twist of fate, I suppose. I still cannot say that Paltry using the veto was pro-town.

And then the stuff on Crazy. Who are you going to vote for? I'd guess it was me, but you've thrown suspicion on both of us.

@Paltry- If you were tapped as Hoh who would you nominate?

Kast and Finch / Sir. I want Sir evicted, but Kast isn't far behind... and I don't know if Kast would feel threatened enough to use the Coup d'Etat if he was against Sir. I'd see how things played out afterwards (I don't expect to be here though.)
But really, reading Kast in ISO can be summarized for this with me:
Attack most popular nominee.
Attack Hewitt.

[PaltryExcuse]

One question for pablito:
When would you use the veto if there was two chances at it?
Part of the reason you're tentative to use it is because there is only one more use.

[PaltryExcuse]

@All: I thought I would be on to answer any comment about my most recent posts, but the World Hockey Juniors is on tonight and as a good Canadian I must watch and drink and cheer on Canada to said occasion.

[PaltryExcuse]

It was an example of Ani's ridiculous claims. You can fathom a scumpartner saying it? I could fathom a scumpartner making sure he's pinpointed others as scumpartners.

Actually it was referring to this statement:

Sly is manipulated easily? PULEASE! The guy went off on a tangent all by his lonesome and it got him evicted. Craziness.

I can see a scumpartner (you) of Sly saying that. I would expect town to say

Sly is manipulated easily? PULEASE! The guy went off on a tangent away from the town and he was shown as scum. Craziness.

There's something you say about "it got him evicted" rather than saying "and he flipped scum anyway". You focus on the fact that his tangent got him evicted rather than the tangent being an inherently scummy action. I think that's a slip.

My point was that acting differently, and having bogus reasons for his actions, got him evicted. I didn't see the need to add he was scum. He was. That idea is a major stretch in my mind.

Who are you going to vote for? I'd guess it was me, but you've thrown suspicion on both of us.

Once noms were made, my vote was going for Crazy. Not sure right now, I'm leaning 65% toward voting Paltry at this point.

When would you use the veto if there was two chances at it?
Part of the reason you're tentative to use it is because there is only one more use.

Let's say veto was never used. Would I use it this round? If there was strong support for using it, then yeah, it's a possibility. Although I would advocate for Kast using the coup still before using the veto. However, if I were going to use the veto, I don't see much reason to use it on Crazy because of vote momentum, so that means Paltry would have to be the recipient of the veto if I were to use it.

I was actually asking generally, not necessarily about this round in particular. I don't understand the fact you won't use the veto especially since we just hit scum. That information could be a part of the reason for using the veto.
For this occasion, I would've been surprised at you personally using it. You've attacked both of us, and really haven't ever mentioned a town feel on people.

Does Paltry smell 100% town to me? No. Therefore I would have to doubt I would've actually used the veto if there were two shots left. I see benefits for Paltry's flip, town or scum...but yeah I'm not entirely optimistic either. But a huge reason why I would not use the veto one shot or two shot is because we just hit scum. We have info to go on. I'd rather save veto for when we're stuck against a wall. Not so sure we're at that stage yet. If we hadn't hit scum yet and Paltry was up against Crazy? I'd be more willing to use it. But when nominations were made, you guys weren't as vicious as you are now. Maybe it's holiday timing, but I wish you (specifically Paltry) would've shown us this analysis before nominations.

In reference to the viciousness, I don't know what you're talking about, and sorry if I've offended anyone. I considered my playstyle to be aggressive and pointed at times, not vicious.
I was doing a re-read during Christmas Break during my spare time, but really the time I could get away from the game cleared my head. The PBPA is more because I thought, and still do despite the two votes of support, that my lynch is inevitable. I wanted to get all my opinions out from a guaranteed town perspective if I'm lynched, something town didn't get when bv310/DisCode was lynched.

[PaltryExcuse]

@pablito: Llama's list of scummy to least scummy is similar to my list, perhaps for the same reasons. What do you think about that?
Also: have your nominations changed since the beginning of the day? (Snow & Mr. Finch; Sir as a third)

@bv310: I already answered that question. More importantly, you seemed to have preconceived notions of who I would nominate. Who were they?

@Mr. Finch: Sorry to hear you're leaving. Best wishes.

@Mod: Is his slot to be given leeway on the vote or get mod-killed front if you do not get a replacement in time / replacement doesn't finished catching up in time?

@Kast: Your suspicions of bv310/saber seem to be based on hewitt's relationship and possible protection by hewitt of saber. That's not really an attack on saber, more an "If hewitt is scum, I'm looking towards bv310." Secondly, if you attack saber, and not bv310 his replacement, you're attacking someone everyone was willing to vote for at that point in time.

@animorpherv1: You're not convinced on the case on Crazy, but you are of the one on me? Is that it? A little bit more reasoning in your vote is awesome-sauce.

@Kmd: Any comments on anything I've said before my lynch?

@Anyone: Anything particular you don't like about my analysis of anyone? I.e. not yourself (although feel free to comment on your own too, obviously.)

[PaltryExcuse]

Why...................?

[PaltryExcuse]

vote: PaltryExcuse

There were a few things I saw that make him scummy: willingness to use veto so quickly; focusing on Sly's behavior that got him lynched - rather than focusing on Sly's scumminess that got him lynched; tends to try to WIFOM in his defenses (once said "would scum bring this up?"); didn't really talk about who he thought was town until was nominated; trying to tell me that his list was similar to crazy's...

Too many things added up when I reviewed Paltry again. I thought it was enough for me. 5 votes is a lynch then. Only Mr Finch's replacement and Sironigous to vote still.

Well, I'm lynched. So I'm done defending myself. However, I tried to tell you my list was close to Llama's, not Crazy's.

I'll still be on until I've been evicted to answer questions. So, let's go people.

[PaltryExcuse]

Oh! By the way,

thanks for modding farside22!

I enjoyed myself. (Though being a townie lynch... )

[PaltryExcuse]

@Mod: Will the special power dates be shortened due to the modkills in order to keep the power of them at the original level? (2 modkills = 2 less days to use them?)

[PaltryExcuse]

Anyone on before the flip:
You've decided on the Me vs. Crazy already, so we know where you stand.
Finch and Sir are likely to be modkilled due to the deadline in less than an hour. What are your thoughts on their play?

[PaltryExcuse]

If you find 3 games with Krazy as scum where he does do this, I might change my mind. Altough it's too late to change my vote now.

Are you kidding? You're honestly playing this game based off meta?

Wow.

Meta breaking = tough

@animorpherv: You've done meta on all of us? Or even some of us? Share your findings.

[PaltryExcuse]

I wish I did my final re-read before I got nominated...

About me panicking: Meh. I got over-presumptuous. But I really did have a strong pro-town read on both... although I was completely wrong about hewitt/Sens.

Overall, I had a lot of fun with this game considering I was only around for three days of game play. Arguing with Sly, kmd and pablito was exciting even if it led to my lynch.

Thing I'm proud of: despite being essentially eliminated by Kmd, I didn't let it cloud my pro-town read on him.

WTG Town though. After my lynch, only one mislynch! Awesome sauce.

Llama being scum was seriously the most surprising thing in this entire game. What tipped you off exactly Kmd?