A Clash of Kings - A Divided Kingdom

[LimMePls]

Checking in. Glad to be here to help save the realm.

Random.org commands, and I follow, so I will boldly:

Vote: Mikujin
Raise: danakillsu

@MOD: I thought this was a 27 player game, the list says 26. Am I mistaken? Thanks!

Sorry, the sign up thread miscounted. It's a 26 player game.

[LimMePls]

@RGHP What policy would you lynch Drippereth for?

I don't get the Deer wagon. I don't think he was saying he wanted a mass name claim, I think he was joking about the small game where they kept pushing for one. I don't think this makes him scum, although I like that we're leaving RVS.

I'm still trying to figure out the impact of the raising a hand mechanic on the game. If we always vote for who we think is most town, we make NKs much easier for the scum. On the other hand, we certainly don't want scum double voters. I'm wondering if we wouldn't be better off casting our raise votes with a random number generator or abstaining from raising a hand at all. I really like the idea from a fluff perspective. Those who are raised to Hand probably won't last very long, which is very fitting.

I think the contract is great, but I'm not sure I understand the point of proposing people agree to it. If we're town, we should be doing all those things anyways, and it isn't like the scum aren't going to agree to it as well. I don't think proposing it does anything but distract us from actually scum hunting.

[LimMePls]

@Percy: I'm pretty sure the mod said that if the Hand dies we'll have to raise a new one. It fits with the flavor, which is why I said I liked it from a fluff perspective. That is what I meant by "always".

For those that don't know, in the stories the "Hand of the King" is a political office that serves the King directly. You can read a short wiki about it here: http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Hand_of_the_King. In the recent history of the Seven Kingdoms, being the Hand has been really dangerous. The Hand leaves in disgrace if he is lucky.

[LimMePls]

@vezopiraka: Raise the one we're going to lynch? Why would we do that? That doesn't make any sense to me. Wouldn't it be better to just not raise anyone?

[LimMePls]

Oh. I'm sorry, I read that as "a new hand will be chosen upon his death". My bad everyone.

[LimMePls]

Unvote
Vote: Richard

I'm not satisfied with his answer to my policy lynch question. Do I misunderstand policy lynches? I thought policy lynches were things like "Lynch All Liars" and "Lynch All Lurkers". I hate the idea that you would lynch a certain player just because you dislike their play style.

I'm also not crazy about 62 and 99 attempting to prolong the RVS. 62 also seems a bit OMGUS to me. I'm not wild about a player unilaterally declaring the RVS over, but I see no reason to not accept that it is and move on. You seem desperate to go back to RVS with the pressure that is on you.

@Richard What did you mean if they are the player you think they are? When you say policy lynch, do you mean the policy is to always lynch that particular player or play style?

Unraise

I'm actually glad I was wrong about the raising mechanic. I do want to think about my choice before I make it.

[LimMePls]

[sarcasm] Thanks for answering my questions Richard [/sarcasm]

[LimMePls]

PLEASE use evidence from this game. This isn't contributing.

I think the link is COMPLETELY relevant to this game. In one game Richard says you shouldn't ever policy lynch, and in this game he wants a policy lynch on Drippereth. At the very least he needs to explain why his opinion has changed on policy lynches.

Saying it isn't contributing is laughable. I don't necessarily buy the whole idea of meta, but this is a clear situation where Richard is contradicting himself, and this evidence is perfectly valid. Either he favors policy lynches or he doesn't, which is it? Why would he be so against them before and yet say he wants one this game. He is flailing for a defense, and tarring Drippereth (or DGB to be more precise) is what he came up with.

[LimMePls]

^^RLY? We're soft name claiming? Is that necessary?

FOS: vezopiraka

I'm still loving my vote.

[LimMePls]

@Benmage does that vote come with any reason at all? And why do you feel the need to worsen his soft claim by pinning down who he was referring to?

FOS: Benmage

[LimMePls]

Also, I kind of like the idea of just raising someone who knows what they are doing, so

unraise raise: Axelrod

(Not that I think Lynch doesn't know what he's doing, but Axelrod, I think, is a little bit better)

I agree with this sentiment. I haven't settled on who I think is best though.

[LimMePls]

@mina So you want us to raise someone who is not mediocre. But not too smart, cause you don't want smart scum with double vote. That seems like a pretty tough needle to thread on D1.

@Raven I don't get your point about raising. We have no way of knowing someone is town short of a claim (and even that doesn't guarantee they are town). We'll have to raise someone even if we don't know they are town.

@MOD What occurs in the event of a tie for raising? What about if everyone no voted for raising?

Mod ~ At Today's lynch, if there are multiple candidates sharing the lead for being Raised, nobody will be raised.

[LimMePls]

In the words of John Paul Jones: I have not yet begun to scum-hunt!

Seriously, it's early.

It's too early to scumhunt? What does that mean? When is it not too early? That seems really strange.

I agree completely with Percy's 213. I also think his case on Hayker is pretty good. I'd like to hear a response.

[LimMePls]

@MOD: Can you fix the ^^quote tags please? Thx.

Mod ~ Done, I think. Let me know if it's not right.

[LimMePls]

Hmm.

So you agree with Percy's defence of Richard, attack of Hayker, and suspicions of CMAR in 213? Are there any points of his you disagree with?

Uhm, did you read 213? Here it is...

@Cow

: Hayker's catchup post reads as conjuring up reasons (while parroting others) to jump on a wagon. The case itself is weak and overreaching, and nothing else about the game was discussed.

Catchup posts like yours give me townvibes, but I'd like you to put your vote somewhere. Catchup posts like Hayker's give me scumvibes.

Also, I use "site time" when I run my games; it's the time as displayed on the

Forum Index

page, top left corner.

Where does he defend Richard here or mention suspicions of CMAR?

What I agree with from this post is liking Cow's catchup post, and not liking Hayker's. Cow's was actually useful, and Hayker's was useless. All he does is point out the obvious strange posts of vezo, then claims to have more to say, but only wants one topic per post. So where are the other posts?

@Mina Why did you assume that I was agreeing with a defense of Richard or an attack of CMAR? Did you read 213 that I was agreeing with before accusing me of that?

[LimMePls]

@Drip: I would consider raising you, because so far I think you've been pretty town. I even find a strange amusement in giving a hydra two votes. However, you yourself pointed out in 152 that you draw a lot of NKs. Do we need to compound the problem by drawing a huge bullseye on you?

[LimMePls]

Raise: Drippereth

Best town read atm, and if Doc's often protect Dripp anyways, makes sense. We're at L-2, so those not raising should really do so.

[LimMePls]

Absent a CC or catching him in a lie, the claim is believable.

Unvote

[LimMePls]

People People...the scum last game had safeclaims, unless provable claims, nameclaims really shouldn't dissuade scummness.

He didn't just name claim though. He also gave a credible ability that fits the name claim flavor wise.

[LimMePls]

One thing that struck me as odd about the claim is that Ser Loras does the veng killing....I would've imagined Brienne doing that, but perhaps Brienne isn't in the game and this is how things had to work...ahh headache

When Renly dies Loras gets so pissed he kills two or his rainbow guards who were supposed to protect him. It makes perfect sense fluff wise.

[LimMePls]

I’d be against it simply because I don’t think having a double vote really improves your ability to play given your presented playstyle. I believe a double-voter power would better complement someone with a more declaratory style such as Cow or Percy.

I'd support either of your proposed raises. I'm not sure I agree with you saying Dripp wouldn't improve their ability to play given their playstyle. They use their vote to scum hunt, and pretty effectively from what I've seen so far, so how is giving them twice the vote bad? They may not be twice the effective scumhunter, but I think it would definitely improve their play. At the least they could use one vote to push their top suspect and the other to probe at people like they regularly do.

Do you believe given the previous Mini game where fake claims were provided that there is any chance of a CC based on a specific name?

I guess not. I didn't play in the small game, but I understand that the scum had fake claims. I guess the "absent a CC" was unnecessary. I just meant that his claim is believable to me, but I was open to it being refuted.

[LimMePls]

My point is that DripHydra can still continue to probe at players with a single vote while highlighting their top suspect as above. If the style is effective with one vote (which the concensus is that it tends to be so) then adding a second vote doesn’t necessarily increase the effectiveness in my mind. A declarative player who builds cases can thus build two strong cases and utilize their vote to back them, or to build a single strong case and support it twice.

Note please that DripHydra currently has an inactive vote but is still managing to place pressure on players.

This point is well taken. So well taken in fact:

Unraise
Raise: MagnaofIllusion

[LimMePls]

What exactly is the case on Kleedrac? I just ISO'd him, and he just seems lurky to me. Is that it?

I thought this post was strange:

What the hell does this mean and why are two of you saying it word-for-word?

Because Finkle is Einhorn, and Einhorn is Finkle. We've covered this already. The thread isn't that long.

And to answer the question, Drippereth is a hydra, an account played by two players. DrippingGoofball forgot to log off his other account. Which is hysterical, considering vezo pre-emptively asking them not to do that.

[LimMePls]

Ahhh, first of all where the heck do I say anything about a town read on anyone?!?! As far as I'm concerned you're all scum atm.

Orly?

What I said was that I read Richard and didn't find anything lynch-worthy and didn't understand the bandwagon that formed to take his head off. I also read through CryMeARiver and pointed out several things that were lynch-worthy without being answered. I'm lurking because this is my first game with this many people and quite frankly I feel a bit overwhelmed when every time I check in the thread has grown by a page full of Wall'o'text posts.

There are so many problems with this I don't even know where to begin. All told there where a good 3 or 4 unique scummy things that stood out from Richard's play, you didn't understand/agree with a single one? I also don't give a hoot why you are lurking, but it aint cool. Lastly, the idea that the game is an overabundance of wall-o-text posts is absurd. There are tons of small posts. Within the last 10 posts before yours there are 8 posts that are small. The idea that this game is full of wall-o-text posts is completely false. Do you want me to count the number of one line posts in this game? Cause I will.

I shall try to do better in the lurking department and I do take responsibility that this probably looks scummy (though I'm not the only one as pointed out by The New York Lurker Report (TM) .) As for your 'case' first you claim my alignment is linked to Richard (with no justification or reasoning whatsoever) and then claim I'm scummier (again with no reasoning or justification beyond my lurking which we've already discussed.) All this leads me to wonder about your own alignment sir? You seem to have adopted not only hydra heads but also a spaghetti case syndrome where you're throwing accusations at everything in site save the damned mod! If you're going to lead a bandwagon, at least have the decency to build a good case for it

This is a completely inaccurate account of Dripp's play. Dripp's votes and accusations have been pointed towards a handful of players, and certainly not everyone in the thread. Hell, Dripp even posts frequent lists where they identify their town reads, and its a good half dozen or so. This defense of yours also reads as AtE with a small amount of OMGUS towards Dripp. This post is really scummy.

Unvote
Vote: Kleedrac

[LimMePls]

@Macavity SSBF's meta is definitely lots of FOS. I can't post to any games, because they are ongoing. It is my understand that we aren't supposed to link to ongoing games, correct? Hopefully my mentioning this is not breaking the rules, if it is, please go easy on me mod, I can't find any rule on page 1 saying not to do this.

We lynch Richard and in the off chance he's town and not lying, a player gets a 1 shot vig.

I think there are much better lynch candidates. I don't want to lynch someone just because they can enable a vig. We don't know who the vig is, and whether or not they'll even use it well.

[LimMePls]

Raivann, you have absolutely no right to call my claim BS with no reasoning. If you're going to attempt to tear my claim to shreds, at least say why. Jesus.

He sounds like he just want rid of a townie, and I'd wager that he knows who Ser Loras is.

Care to participate in anything other than your own defense? You aren't helping yourself look more town, even if I do buy your claim.

[LimMePls]

Kleedrac needs to be lynched folks. We aren't getting any younger, and for some of us that's a real problem.

[LimMePls]

Kleedrac needs to be lynched folks. We aren't getting any younger, and for some of us that's a real problem.

QFTQFTQFT!

Then why aren't you voting him?

[LimMePls]

AtE?

[LimMePls]

Woah. I'm still in this game? Shows how impessionable this game is on me.

Is this just your anti-prod post? Care to join in or replace out?

[LimMePls]

Eww 436. Vote Kleedrac and in the same post unvote, vote Dana? Why? That stinks of trying to buddy up to the town players on the Kleedrac wagon without actually putting your vote where your mouth is. And I don't buy it as a preview edit, dana's most recent posts were two hours and 7 posts before yours. This is about as scummy as the old "FOS my scum buddy and vote a townie" ploy.

I'm not even wild about the Mina raise, although I don't think its terrible. With the exception of that 436 is one giant scumdar alert for me.

[LimMePls]

If we can't have a majority of votes for raising someone, does that not mean we raise no one?

A Hand of the King will be raised when there is a simple majority (i.e. 14 votes). Alternatively, whoever has the most ‘raise’ votes at the time of the Day 1 lynch, will be raised.

Whichever method is used, the Hand of the King will become a double voter from the beginning of Day 2. The Hand may split the two votes. Both votes will be public.
The Hand may not be stripped of his title in any way. A new Hand will not be chosen on the Hand’s death.

If someone hits 14 raises, they will be raised. If no one hits 14, then the highest raise recipient at the end of the day will be hand. Per mod's response to my iso 13, if there is a tie no one will be raised.

[LimMePls]

I did not want people to accuse me of parroting later on, as I knew I was guilty of parroting some of Drippereth's last post.

Admitting that you were parroting doesn’t make the suspicious nature of it fade away. You’ve simply done the job of anyone who would make the point for them.

SSBF: Scummy, due to apologizing for what is unnecessary to apologize for.
Magna: Scummier, due to latching on to "parroting" without looking at context, attempting an easy dig.

In relation to any parroting comments, DethHydra and SSBF cross-posted, as would be obvious if you looked. Don't like either SSBF or Magna in this exchange.

I agree with MacavityLock here.

Unraise

Kleedrac needs more votes. I honestly don't understand what the hold up is.

[LimMePls]

Shat,

Unvote

Quickly analyzing bandwagoning reasons

I have a problem with the immediate unvote. Why do you assume he's telling the truth?

Did we ever get an answer to this question? After CMAR's aggressive play and key role in starting the (well deserved) Richard wagon, he insta-unvotes. Seems a bit odd given his earlier aggressiveness. I buy the claim, but it seems strange coming from CMAR. He was the first one on that wagon, seemed really proud of it, and then is the first one off, in 2 minutes no less. How can you even ponder if you believe the claim in 2 minutes? And he does nothing but lurk since then.

FOS: CMAR
@MOD: Can we get a prod on CMAR, it's been 4 days since his last post

[LimMePls]

Someone send servants to start preparing the Tower of the Hand, it looks like Percy will be taking residence there soon.

Kleederac's OMGUS on Drip and his severe AtE in this post are not points in his favour. I find Drip's main point against him (that his townread of Richard was strategic in nature) somewhat persuasive after re-reading the Richard wagon. Still, I want to see where his case against CMAR goes, and am witholding judgement for now.

@Percy: I'm not quite sure what to make of this. What does his case against CMAR have to do with his other very scummy behavior? When you say you want to see where the case on CMAR goes, do you mean you want more from Kleedrac on the matter, or you just want to see more discussion about CMAR?

[LimMePls]

I've been hesitant to trust Richard at all; something about his play just irks me. Can't put my finger on it.

Statements like this set off my scumdar. If Richard gets lynched or NK'd, and flips town, you get to say "see, I wasn't sure about him". If he flips scum you get to say "see, I knew I shouldn't trust him". It seems like fence sitting hidden in "I can't get a read" language.

[LimMePls]

I note you are not currently voting to Raise. How do you feel regarding Percy as the Hand? If you are not in favor of him who would you support and why are you not voting for them?

I think Percy will make a good hand. I'm thinking of raising him, but I asked him a question, and I'd like the answer to it first. I was raising you, but I didn't like one of your posts, so I unraised. The post wasn't that far back, you can look back or ISO me to see it. I also thought a Dripp hand would be useful, I was persuaded otherwise, and it looks like many of the players are uncomfortable with a Dripp hand.

At this point the likelihood of Percy not being raised is incredibly slim. I see no urgency in deploying my raise again just yet.

Oh, and SSBF only admitted it would look like parroting when he realized that he was Ninja'd by Dripp. That is why he "admitted" it. And that is why your leaping on it is scummy looking. If you go back and read the 5 posts before and 5 or so after, you'll see that calling SSBF's post there scummy doesn't really make much sense.

[LimMePls]

This game needs more participation. And by participation I mean Kleedrac votes.

[LimMePls]

Are people voting Raivann because Kleedrac is lurking himself away from being a vote magnet?

Just askin'

Inquiring minds want to know.

This.

Yes, the surge of votes away from Kleedrac leaves me wondering as well. What makes Raivann a better lynch than Kleedrac?

And this.

[LimMePls]

Raise Percy

oh, hello richard. Why's this? I don't really see a reason for it from you.

And and this.

I almost think Raivann was actually right and we should lynch Richard anyway. He claimed and then went into uber lurker mode. Now trying to buy some town cred with a Percy raise.

[LimMePls]

Prod is noted. Tomorrow is my mafia scum day. Trust me.

My trust was well deserved.

I'm beginning to think Raivann or CMAR are superior lynches to Kleedrac.

Keep posting Raivann, you're making this a lot easier.

[LimMePls]

Woot, back up and running. Still think the lynch is between Raivann and Kleedrac. I'm going to start a reread, since the game seems to be moving slowly.

[LimMePls]

You can still ISO, but it is a bit clumsy. Just select "Sort by Author" and select go. Then look for where the person you want to ISO is, they should be sorted alphabetically.

Also, does anyone know how to turn off the forced preview if someone posts between when you hit reply and when you submit your message?

[LimMePls]

Finished my re-read, and boy have a got an awesome case for you guys. Witness the following:

Vote: Richard

Hey look, I just left the RVS, no random votes will be accepted from here on out without perfect reasoning. You know why? Because I said so and because I am Great and Badass alligned.

Raise: CryMeABadassRiver

CMAR makes a case on Richard and tries to drag us out of RVS, buying him some distancing and some town-cred. He doesn't actually have any reason to suspect the Richard wagon will actually go all the way, its still RVS.

Vote: Super Smash Bros Fan.

You've never played a game with me so the fact that you know I like long posts indicates you've been heavily Wiki studying other players.

But, that's a good thing, right?

Vote: MagnaofIllusion

Raise: CryMeABadassRiver

Then Axelrod raises CMAR, but makes no comment on the CMAR case on Richard. Due to Dripp's continued probbing of Richard plus the policy lynch link he brought up, Richard's wagon takes off. CMAR gets really quiet. Pretty much Dripp and others do all the rest of the work from here.

Welcome Hasdgfas!

Unvote;

Vote: Hasdgfas

Sorry, but Dr. Modem was scummy and then quit, so you are starting out in the hole.

My problem with the Drippereth account is that they can post contradictory things like:

Assuming a doctor is in the settup, I will be amaza-suprised if the double-voter isn't protected. So raising up whoever you think is the most pro-town is still the way imo.

and

I can't see why a double vote would be so precious...

and you can't really call them out for a contradiction, because it could just be that the two heads have a different opinion on the issue.

I'm trying to look at Richard. I don't especially care for his style, but I'm not convinced it's scummy yet.

I actually like this comeback here:

I'm going to lol when Drippereth is wrong - AGAIN

Townies don't taunt in this way. Scumz do.

WELL I GUESS THERE'S A FIRST TIME FOR EVERYTHING BECAUSE I, A TOWNIE, JUST TAUNTED IN THAT WAY.

Which strikes the right tone of annoyance and indignation for a Town.

Axelrod doesn't vote the whole time the Richard wagon is growing, his "RVS" vote is still in place. When Dr. Modem is replaced, he then immediately votes Cow calling Dr. Modem scummy. But he hadn't actually made any posts about Dr. Modem to that point. In the same post he also defends Richard.

It was most likely a pressure vote, "Cow".

If not, then what Cow said. Voting for a playerslot just as it changes hands is bad.

Richard now defends Axelrod, although he gives himself an "out" by saying "If not..."

boy that makes me feel welcome. I'm going to point out that newbies often replace out when they're under pressure because they don't know what else to do. I mean, he's Townsperson. Plus, he said he was too busy to play, so I'm calling party foul on this vote, because he didn't disappear, he replaced out.

Well, I didn't say he "disappeared" did I? I said he quit. Which is true. Not much of a reason to vote, but I wasn't especially feeling it

more

on anyone else so, there you go.

@Axelrod: I don't see any scumhunting from you. What are your thoughts on scumminess of certain players? For instance, Dr Modem. You say he's scummy, but don't give reasons. You didn't comment on them in any of your previous posts. What are they? Why did it take you so long to change your vote?

Dr. Modem did nothing this game. He "random" voted for me (never a good thing) and made no other votes. He made a few attempts at what appeared to be jokes without commenting about anything or anyone else. He got overly hostile and defensive when critized, and then he quit. So, really, what's not to like there?

In the words of John Paul Jones: I have not yet begun to scum-hunt!

Seriously, it's early.

also @Axelrod: COuld you please explain the contradiction in the two posts of Drippereth that you claimed were contradictory?

Well, in the first quote she says she assumes the Double-Voter will be Doc protected this game. Presumably one would think this because one thinks this is a role worth protecting?

In the second quote she says she doesn't see what's so precious about a Double Vote - like it's no big deal (and, presumably, not worthy of auto-Doc protection). Like, that seems fairly obvious to me. Not you?

Unvote

I do appreciate that you have at least put in some work already, which is more than several people.

Cow and others call foul on this and Axelrod unvotes. This is also the first time he even tries to explain why he finds Dr. Modem scummy. He then makes the mother of all strange comments with his "I have not yet begun to scum-hunt". Ya, we noticed.

Claim: Renly Baratheon

I am Robert's youngest brother. I have decided to be King, but their are currently bigger problems to attend to.

If I die, Ser Loras is able to perform one kill to attemp to avenge me. Therefore, I know Ser Loras is in the game. However, I do not know who (s)he is and what alignment they are. If Ser Loras dies before I do, nothing happens upon my death.
_______________________________________________________________________
Rereading this morning.

Shat,

Unvote

Quickly analyzing bandwagoning reasons

Richard wagon continues to grow, and Richard finally is forced to claim. WITHIN 2 MINUTES OF CLAIMING CMAR UNVOTES. He built this wagon, seemed pretty hot about it at first, vanishes when it picks up steam, and then immediately bails when Richard claims with practically 0 time to actually decided if he buys the claim or not.

Dana sticks out to me as scum, btw.

"Oh look guys Richard's at L-1 so I'll unvote to show everyone how townie I am"

Classic scum tactic.

As soon as people start hesitating on Richard, he seizes an opportunity to paint dana as scum for his unvote, hoping to move people off him, but doesn't do the same thing to CMAR who is MUCH more hypocritical/scummy for his unvote.

Okay, I will get caught up soon, but to those voting to raise axelrod, I would just like to say that whoever gets the double vote will likely die quickly and axelrod already endorsed me getting the double vote. I'm willing to take that sacrifice for town. I'll admit axel seems to be a very good player and I'll likely take his advice into consideration when using a double vote. Just putting it out there.
By the way, glad to see the Richard wagon is taking off. Pillars of the evil king's castle are finally falling 2day.

Uh, yuck?

Unraise: CryMeARiver

Like, I don't usually mind when people suck up to me, but this is kind of over the top. Also, it's

hardly

like I'd firmly decided you were my guy here.

To Richard: do you know if this bonus kill is immediate, or takes place during the subsequent night? For instance, were you lynched, would Loras kill someone before the Night technically started, or would it happen as a regular action during the Night. And I assume he can't hold it for later, but has to use it right then? Could he elect NOT to use it?

Mod

: I'm pretty sure I'm not voting for anyone.

~Thanks - fix'd I hope

CMAR makes an incredibly scummy looking post that he later claims was a bread crumb. Why is he breadcrumbing at this point? Maybe his scum buddy just claimed without breadcrumbs, and he realizes he should set some up? Axelrod UNRAISES CMAR for the scummy "breadcrumb" post, probably realizing the he needs to distance himself from CMAR.

I'm going to go ahead and /barn Percy at least as far as Hayker goes.

Hayker made This intoductory post in which he purported to do an analysis of Vez (perhaps one of the softest targets in the game). And also says:

Note:I have read the thread and have more thoughts then this. I think keep one post to one topic is simple though...and I'm working on being simple.(walks away with a chain rattling)

These further thoughts remain, as yet, unrevealed. Instead, all Hayker's subsequent posts have been extremely short, two questions to other players and a sarcastic comment. Look, here they are:

One - why was this post needed indeed?

Two - criticizing a bandwaggoner, in the least helpful way.

Three - odd question to 1/2 the Hydra head. Wants DGB's opinion on his play so far. Why? And why specifically DGB?

Vote: Hayker

Mainly I want these other thoughts Hayker supposedly had/has, but has yet to share with us.

Axelrod then seizes on Percy's Hayker case as a way to further derail the Richard wagon, and basically just parrots Percy.

Raivann, you have absolutely no right to call my claim BS with no reasoning. If you're going to attempt to tear my claim to shreds, at least say why. Jesus.

He sounds like he just want rid of a townie, and I'd wager that he knows who Ser Loras is.

Richard then makes this crazy post calling out Raivann and claims Raivann "knows who Loras is". The only way this would make sense is if Raivann is Loras, and if that is the case why would Richard want to point that out to everyone else? This makes absolutely 0 sense.

There's just way too much "certainty" floating around in this thread. I absolutely hate it when people just start calling other people "scum" and act like they have it all figured out and it's case-closed when the truth is they know

nothing

. They have a

hunch

. An

opinion

.

I recognize this is a "style" thing for a lot of people, and they'll flip from calling someone obv.scum to deciding they are clearly town at the drop of a hat, and then immediately press on with their next "obviously scum" target, conveniently ignoring how horribly wrong they were the last time they called someone "obv.scum" and it drives me

nuts

. Please STFU or use some damn qualifiers. When you do this you are either being dishonest or you are just being a moron.

/rant

I don't know why I bothered to type this out. Maybe I'm having a bad day or something.

I know why you bothered. It's called active lurking. You go on to make 0 useful posts from this point on.

Raise Percy

Still worried about his image, he hops on the clearly pro-town Percy raising.

Given all of the above evidence, I find a Richard/Axelrod/CMAR scum team very likely. I'm betting Renly is a scum leader fakeclaim, and one of the other scum fake claims for their team is Loras. I think the best play is to lynch Richard, and if his flip confirms my suspicion, we're in really good shape. If it is a mislynch, while that would suck, we do in fact still get the vig kill and we get to clean up all the mess that has ensued from the Richard situation. Also, if Loras is out there, and it isn't CMAR or Axelrod that could prove my case wrong, although I'm not sure I'd want that person to claim.

Unvote
Vote: Richard

[LimMePls]

Lack of ability to iso makes it not feasible for me to do a deep Kleedrac read right now. I'm not particularly enamored of the Raiv wagon.

You can iso. I've done it already, and I've already said how. I feel like I'm talking to myself.

Go to the bottom, go to Sort By: and select the "Author" option. Then just go through the pages, as all the posts will no be sorted by author name first, then chornological order. Just go to the first page with a post by the person you want to iso, and start reading from their first post.

[LimMePls]

This makes 0 sense to me. It takes maybe a minute more to navigate to the iso on a particular player, and then once you are there it takes 0 more effort to read from the start of their iso to the end. I understand you don't like the change, and hopefully they'll implement it back to the way it was, but I do not understand an unwillingness to iso if it could be helpful to the town and it would cost you maybe 1 minute more of your time. In the grand scheme of how much time it takes to do an iso, 1 minute is practically nothing.

In other news, my case a few posts back seems to be getting entirely ignored. This makes me a sad panda.

[LimMePls]

LynchMePls, I've learned the hard way to avoid blatantly defending a player (because

I look like an idiot when that player flips scum

someone always accuses me of buddying or makes a trumped-up case linking me to the target of my defence). I won't pull a SSBF and do a quote-by-quote rebuttal of your case before Axelrod, CMAR, and Richard defend themselves.

But to be honest, I think that your Richard-Axelrod-CMAR case is very contrived. It gives me the impression that you picked and chose the evidence to fit your theory. This is the kind of case that makes me suspect the person who wrote it.

First off, you say you'll let them defend themselves, but then you still go on to post a lot in there defense anyways. That seems odd. That being said, I don't have tunnel vision, and I'm perfectly happy to be refuted if that is what the evidence points to. I did a reread, and I noticed odd behavior, so I followed it to where it lead, and it gave me this case. If people think I'm wrong, that's fine, I don't have a problem with that. To call my case scummy is laughable. Why would I go through that effort, particularly when I've been pushing a Kleedrac wagon for like a week? The answer is obvious, I did a reread and I saw something interesting.

The Richard-CMAR connection in particular is extremely unlikely. Their early fight looked pretty heated, and you seem to have forgotten that Richard voted CMAR back. And you realize at the time Axelrod voted Hayker, not only had the Richard wagon been derailed, but the Kleedrac, SSBF, and CMAR wagons all had more votes on them than Hayker? So it's silly to use Axelrod voting Hayker as evidence he was diverting the wagon away from Richard. And why don't you have a problem with

Drippereth

unvoting Richard the instant they saw his claim?

If I'm correct, CMAR was bussing his partner day 1. This might be an explanation for the heated reaction from Richard, he might have been genuinely pissed. Dripp unvoted as well, but that's not the point. The point isn't that CMAR unvoted, after all, I did as well. Its the timing of it! Look at the time stamps, it's literally two minutes apart. That is not an exaggeration, it is LITERALLY two minutes apart. How can you see someone's claim, click the quote button, and post the unvote in two minutes, let alone even consider if you believe the claim. It was WAY too rushed, particularly in light of his attack on Richard. I again point out that at the time CMAR made his case, there was little sign that it would turn into a full on lynch. Once it began to grow to large size, he pretty much vanished until his miraculously fast unvote.

As for you point that the wagon had already derailed when Axelrod voted, that may be true, but it still doesn't refute all of the defensiveness from Axelrod to Richard and vice-versa.

Seriously, you're pushing a Richard lynch purely because you're so sure that you've found his scumbuddies based on such weak evidence? I think you could use similar evidence to link any player in the game to Richard.

I didn't find "similar" evidence linking anyone else, I posted exactly what I found. If you think it's far-fetched, or you disbelieve it, that is certainly your choice. But don't distort my position by claiming I could "use similar evidence to link any player in the game to Richard". I haven't done that, and that is a strawman argument.

(I'll be honest and say that I have a gut town read on Axelrod from his most recent posts. And for the five zillionth time, Richard's claim will be easily provable or disprovable when we massclaim. At this point, I'd be okay with a CMAR lynch purely because of the softclaim and horrible kissing up to Axelrod, but I'd rather look in other directions.)

How can you say Axelrod seems town? Seriously, ISO him, it's really easy just do a "Sort By: Author" and he is right there on page 1 (after Animorph). I'd love to hear what makes you think he is town. Cause as far as my ISO read of him went, he is VERY scummy looking. I'll point back to my case for specifics. He basically does no scum hunting the whole game, votes Cow for terrible reason, parrot's Percy for his only case that even looks remotely good, then goes into active lurker mode. What about that exactly gives you a town read?

Am I "convinced" that I'm right? Of course not. I am however putting my information out there. I observed very odd behavior between the three of them, and I built the case on it. I will say this, if all three of them are town I'll eat my hat.

[LimMePls]

Actually, your response is coming off as pretty townish. And...that's kind of a good point about how you didn't need to unvote Kleedrac. (Mind you, now I'm concocting an elaborate Kleedrac-LynchMePls scumteam theory. At first, you didn't get the case on Kleedrac, right? But then you saw which way the winds were blowing, so you did a sudden turnaround and voted him, until you saw reluctance to lynch him and decided to make a last-ditch effort to save him with a huge case....someone please stop my overactive imagination.)

I asked what the case was, because he was just a lurker. He then made a scummy post in response to the pressure he was getting. I made a very good response to his scummy post, asked him questions, and voted him. If you think that makes me look scummy, then I don't even know what to say.

Maybe I just don't gel with your reasoning. I have the same problem with Unsight. Also, call me hypocritical, because I have another conspiracy theory brewing, but I don't like people voting solely on links before a single flip, particularly when the links are weak.

It's not solely on links. Can't we all admit that Richard has played scummy today? Hell he was at L-1 and forced to claim, that didn't come about from no scummy play. Furthermore, ever since his claim, he has done absolutely nothing to change my read on him. He does no scum hunting. The most generous play you could call scum hunting was his attack on dana, and that looked more like mud slinging to distract from his wagon than actually scum hunting. This is why when I say I suspect a Richard/CMAR/Axelrod scum team that I propose we lynch Richard. He is by far the scummiest of the three. I'm perfectly willing to admit that one of those three could just be me seeing a connection that isn't really there, but after my reread, IMO Richard needs to die, and I think Axelrod or CMAR should be right behind him when he flips scum.

You'd be better off arguing that CMAR and Richard are both scum, but on different teams. When there is genuine hostility between two players whose votes are on each other for most of the day while they're both in danger of a lynch, usually it's safe to assume the obvious. You are making WAY too many assumptions by saying that Richard is pissed off because of CMAR's bussing (which at that point hadn't got serious).

That is certainly a possibility, it just isn't the impression I got after my reread. I don't claim that my theory is full-proof the clear unquestionable truth. They could be scum on opposite teams. There play though is really scummy.

Oh, really? Please explain to me how the instantaneous change between this and this is any different. Clearly, Dripp changed their mind in the

one minute

between demanding a claim and saying "I believe the claim." And you yourself said Dripp was attacking Richard harder than CMAR was.

I'll let Dripp answer for themselves on this one, but to me that looked like the two heads of the hydra simul posting. Hence the "ninja'd" comment. I think one of them was dubious and the other bought the claim. Also to note that while their two posts were a minute apart, they weren't TWO MINUTES after the claim like CMARs was.

EVERYONE PLEASE READ THIS

Honestly, am I the only one who thinks its scummy for CMAR to make a case, vanish when it picks up steam (except for a short "I'm glad this is continuing" post) and then IMMMEDIATELY unvote after a claim? It is so bizarre. The time stamps are two minutes apart. Lets suppose that CMAR was sitting at his computer, staring at the game and hitting F5 as fast as he could, so he sees the claim the moment it is published (something that doesn't make sense given his lurking at that point in time). Lets also assume that it was published at the very beginning of the minute it has time stamped. That means CMAR sees the claim, lets say it takes him 5-10 seconds to process what he has read. He then clicks the quote button to respond. Once the browser loads the response its been 15 or so seconds since it was posted. He then types his reponse (we'll be generous and say this takes 10 seconds). That means he had 120 seconds - 25 seconds to read the claim and write his reply gives 95 seconds (lets call it a minute and a half) to actually think about his response.

So, in 95 seconds CMAR comes to the conclusion to believe the claim of a player who has been incredibly scummy, and HE HIMSELF built the initial case on in a game where we have already discussed that the scum have fake claims!?!?!? The concept is so laughable. There has GOT to be an exlanation for this, and CMAR's complete silence on the issue is very damning. This is why I believe they are on a scum team together.

By the way, glad to see the Richard wagon is taking off. Pillars of the evil king's castle are finally falling 2day.

Thanks for dredging this gem of a post up, it only illustrates my point. He posts that he is glad the wagon is taking off and "Pillars of the evil king's castle are finaly falling". So, he is glad the wagon is building steam, he is convinced he is scum, but he unvotes instantly after the claim. And what was the claim? ONE OF THE FIVE KINGS!!!! Isn't one of the five kings (particularly one that might be viewed as "good" by some readers) certainly a possible fake claim for a scum leader? Wouldn't that in and of itself make you pause? I know it did for me when I read the claim.

There is just way to much scum going on here for there to not be a connection. And I think the best lynch to unravel the whole thing is Richard. He has by far been scummiest player of the day, he has done absolutely nothing useful for the town since his claim stalled his wagon, and even if he IS telling the truth, we'll still get the vig kill. That concludes my case, people can make of it what they will, but I don't think I'll be moving my vote. Richard is obv scum and he needs to die.

Oh, and if there is a Day vig out there, hitting Richard would be uber. Just saying.

[LimMePls]

I have just skimmed the new stuff and see someone has made an actual case against me - even if it's almost 100% a case by way of association with people who's alignments are unknown. Still, I'll respond to it shortly. My first instinct is that the casemaker himself (LynchMePls) comes across as reasonably genuine, and it actually makes me lean more town on him.

It's not just association Axelrod. Your play hasn't been very town like in my opinion. Your case on Cow/Dr.Modem was weak and came out of nowhere, you've spent most of your time commenting on proper raising without scum hunting, and you went into hyper lurk mode after your "rant". I'll grant that my case that you are on a scum team with Richard is merely from association, but you've been pretty scummy this game.

[LimMePls]

@MOD: I unvoted and voted for Richard. Just in case...

Unvote
Vote: Richard

[LimMePls]

Connection cases bore me on Day 1. Let's get some flips, and then get back to me.

Ok. Richard first.

[LimMePls]

I'll take CMAR to I guess, although I'd really like to hear his explanation for his unvote, it was scum-tastic.

[LimMePls]

Unvote, Vote:Richard

I should have unvoted dana earlier.
I never should have unvoted Richard either
You're right Mina, maybe it's not too late especially after lynchmepls just made the best case in the game so far on him.
I don't know Kleedracks alignment I know alot of others found him scummy and were asking for moar Kleedrac votes. My main point for thinking he was town was proven wrong.So I was following or going along. Another way to look at it is with all these players there has to some kind of consensus and teamwork.

FoS:Mina

I see a Richard/ Mina connection.

You do realize that you are both voting and raising Richard right? Is this raise leftover from who you replaced or did the mod make a mistake?

[LimMePls]

@Axelrod I think there is almost nothing in your play that looks pro-town to me. You've made three votes all game, 1 RVS, 1 Cow vote that was so bad you even unvoted your very next post, and 1 where you admittedly barn Percy. On top of that you spend most of the rest of your posts on the raising, you do 0 scum hunting, and then you basically start to lurk, until now when I've started poking at you. Your one post since the rant where you mention other players was wishy washy, and you didn't really take a firm stand on them.

People may argue about the links I see, and I think there is some merit to the idea that a links based case is less compelling before we've even had any flips. I'm perfectly willing to admit these were just my observations, and I shared them with the group. I'm by no means "convinced" I'm right. I find it certainly plausible that I'm wrong about the three of you being a scum team. All three of you are scummy though, and I think there is definitely a good possibility you are scum.

I haven't thought about this whole "2 minutes" thing you are harping on. Like, the quick unvote is scummy because...scum are quick to unvote? I'm not sure I get that reasoning, but maybe I haven't thought it all the way through.

Ya, I think you should think it all the way through, cause I've only explained it like three times now. If I can't get my point across by then, either someone else will have to try or you just aren't going to get it. Note that others find it suspicious too, so it's not just me.

The good news is I don't think you are today's lynch. IMO that should be Richard or CMAR, with Richard being by far the scummiest of the three of you. That could change once CMAR explains his unvote. I wouldn't cry if others go with Kleedrac, but I'm not pushing that wagon anymore.

[LimMePls]

First up, let me reiterate my read on Richard. I think his claim is unlikely to be a fakeclaim, and whilst I don't think it rules him out as scum, it does make it less likely - giving scum a vengeful kill seems less probable than giving town a vengeful kill. Whilst his play has been underwhelming, I think his wagon stinks and I had a gut town read - his present lurking is not doing that any favours, though.

Why couldn't it be a fake claim and the power be completely bogus? If he is the leader of a scum team, and his fake claim is Renly, couldn't his partner's fake claim be Loras? And couldn't he have just made up the power? It would explain him having to PM the mod multiple times to "clarify" how it worked. And "his play has been underwhelming"? That's an underwhelming statement from you. Here is the entireity of his participation SINCE his claim:

Dana sticks out to me as scum, btw.

"Oh look guys Richard's at L-1 so I'll unvote to show everyone how townie I am"

Classic scum tactic.

My PM didn't specify, but I would assume so, yes.

PM'd mod for clarification, awaiting reply.

This just in, any form of death counts, so yes, lynching is a viable option.

No, I don't know anything about that Axel. PMing the mod again. >_>

K, mod PM'd me saying that all I know is that I trigger the ability to kill; I don't know who does it, or when.

Raivann, you have absolutely no right to call my claim BS with no reasoning. If you're going to attempt to tear my claim to shreds, at least say why. Jesus.

He sounds like he just want rid of a townie, and I'd wager that he knows who Ser Loras is.

Vote: Kleedrac

If anyone really really really really REALLY wants an explanation I'll post it either tomorrow or on Friday, when I do my catching up post.

Raise Percy

Will post on Friday.

Well, at least we have a comparable ISO feature now.

Post coming tomorrow.

Show me one scum hunting post from that. Hell show me one post, other than the ones about PMing the mod that isn't scummy looking. So, he makes a claim, he gets a reprieve, and what does he do with it? Help us at all? No, he continues to play scummy and be absolutely 0 help to the town. The only post in that list that could even be charitably called a contribution is the one attacking dana, and that seemed more opportunistic mud slinging when he was still under pressure than an actual attempt at scum hunting.

Right now I'm still not willing to lynch Richard, but I haven't ruled him out completely as scum.

@Percy: If Richard's play from the beginning of D1 to now isn't lynch worthy, then what the hell is? I seriously don't know how a player could be scummier other than to carry around a sign saying "I'm scum".

This brings me to LynchMePls' case for a CMAR/Richard/Axelrod scumteam. I find the analysis of CMAR and Axelrod being scummy to be largely independent of the scumminess of Richard, and having read both this post and Axelrod's response, I sympathise with Axelrod's charge of confirmation bias. Still, I don't like the degree to which Axelrod's read on Kleedrac matches up with my own, and his support of MacavityLock's vote on MagnaofIllusion without comment or expansion makes for a third example (my Hayker case being the first).
I still think CMAR is far more scummy than Axelrod, but there has been a lot more defence and reiterating/referencing points others have made than original scumhunting from Axelrod

I'm willing to conceede that there may be some confirmation bias. I formed an opinion based on my reread and I posted the evidence I saw to support my case. I also think MacCavity made a good point about cases using links on D1 are underwhleming. If I could do it over again, I probably wouldn't call them a scum team, and just point to the individual pieces of their scumminess. That said, I don't think anyone can argue that Axelrod and CMAR are scummy. I agree that CMAR is the scummier by far, but Axelrod is really creeping me out. I don't think he has taken a firm stand on anything the whole game that someone else didn't suggest first. Even his vote on Cow came after others had said Dr. Modem was scummy looking. He didn't say anything about it while Dr. Modem was in the game, and then when Cow shows up he immediately votes him, only to look so foolish that he unvotes him the very next post. Axelrod's play this game stinks.

[LimMePls]

@LynchMePls

: I'm not that interested in Richard right now for a few reasons.
1. His fakeclaim is a very excellent one if it's a scumclaim. If Renly is his fakeclaim and his scumbuddy's fakeclaim is Loras, then Richard's death will deprive his buddy of his fakeclaim. If Loras is not in the game, then he'll be caught in endgame. I can't see a situation where Richard's fakeclaim won't catch up with him, if it is indeed fake.

This is an excellent point.

Unvote

I guess we can let this play out.

2. The speed of the wagon, and the reasons some players used to contribute to it, stink of scum.
I agree with you that Richard's play has done absolutely nothing to help the town, and I further agree that the quick reversal of his wagon has produced zero pressure on Richard to contribute. If I'm wrong about the claim, then that would really suck, and I'm not interested in giving Richard a free pass through the rest of the game based solely on this claim. I stand by my gut read for the moment, and the wagon+claim shenanigans make him less of a person of interest for me

today

.
I agree with you about both CMAR and Axelrod, though.

CMAR's "oops I lost this game" is a very, very weak excuse. Ever since the Richard wagon CMAR has been gone, so blaming the lack of activity on the server change is

extremely

disingenuous.

@Mina

: I agree with you about CMAR nameclaiming. Locking him into a claim now, given his behaviour and his breadcrumb, is the best play.

I think CMAR and Raivann are excellent lynch choices for today.

Still working on that every-player ISO (coming tomorrow). May or may not change my vote to CMAR then.

And I agree with all the rest of this. CMAR name claim seems appropriate given his play. To help put pressure on him toward that goal, as well as for his scummy behavior:

Vote: CryMeARiver

Oh, and

Raise: Percy

For this most recent post.

[LimMePls]

Question: How many people at this point would be willing to lynch me today?

I was willing to lynch you today after my reread. See my case for reasons why. Percy made very good points about why your claimed role is likely true. Therefore I am not for lynching you... today.

For the love of god, if you are what you claim to be, would you PLEASE help us hunt scum instead of doing absolutely nothing? Thank you.

[LimMePls]

@Percy: I promised a post, you got one. Quit complaining.

You are clearly pro-town.

I'm feeling better about that case every "post" Richard, so keep it up.

@Everyone else: By deadline if we have no better candidate, I seriously propose Richard as our lynch. He shows absolutely 0 intention to participate in a helpful way, and he will only cause us to have the "Is Richard scum" discussion every day for the rest of the game. His play today has, IMO, been sufficiently scummy to warrant a lynch.

[LimMePls]

Nice post Julian.

@JVW: Would you care to comment on the Richard situaion? If you have already, I'd be happy for you to just point me to the post. What do you think about CMAR?

[LimMePls]

Lurker scum CMAR should be killed. With 36 hours to deadline, even if he does show up to finally answer the many questions aimed his way, there will not be near enough time to properly discuss that information.

I think his play is incredibly troubling. I also think there is sufficient interactions with others (notably Richard and Axelrod) that his flip will be helpful.

[LimMePls]

@LynchMePls

: What did you like about julienvonwolfe's post?

Its more a general appreciation of the quality of his catchup posts than specific points he makes. I love when a player replaces in and actually does a comprehensive reread with WALL-O-TEXT followup. I like it for two reasons: 1) It gives us a fresh perspective on the game, since we see things colored by how they occured over time, while the new player has a chance to see all the events rapidly. 2) They actually take a stand on the events, giving us immediate information on them. Even doubly so if they ask questions of players, as that forces interactions with the player who replaced in, allowing us to more easily get a read on them. People who do these kinds of posts when they replace in get a thumbs up from me. Those who say "I'm gonna catch up" and then just post a one line "Here is who I'm voting" post irk me. When a slot was so bad it needed replacement, the last thing I want it filled with is a lurker who refuses to interact with the game or at the very least provide a comprehensive "this is my take on the major issues of the game" post.

I am still happy with the CMAR lynch. I also think that between the CMAR and Raivann wagons, the CMAR wagon has more players I read as town than the Raivann wagon. Someone (Mina I think) raised a concern about players who flake getting wagons almost always flipping pro-town. I don't have near the experience in forum mafia to know if that is true or not, but it sounds anecdotal and not very persuasive. CMAR's play is scummy. His early play being "pro-town" makes no sense to me. Why can't scum try to gain town cred by declaring RVS over? Why can't scum propose that contract? Why can't scum build a really early case on someone? In fact, any of his early play that could be called pro-town is completely obliterated by his follow up play.

I do not think my vote is a policy lynch. His lurking is troublesome, but his play is worse. The unvote of Richard stunk to high heaven, as did the "gonna analyze the wagon" statement followed by no wagon analysis. The fact that he won't respond to the questions on him only makes it worse.

[LimMePls]

I also think that between the CMAR and Raivann wagons, the CMAR wagon has more players I read as town than the Raivann wagon.

Eww, you know what, I just flipped this thought around, and looked at these wagons for "which of them has more scum reads from me" and I gotta say it's the CMAR wagon. I don't like Richard and I don't like Axelrod, they are two of my strongest scum reads. Not sure what to make of this.

[LimMePls]

Finally, LynchMePls, I'm glad you liked my case. What do you think about the specific aspects of it, though?

Look up, I answered this question for Percy. The Reader's Digest version is: I like the way you're catching up and actually participating, giving us a fresh perspective and a way to read you. I didn't say I necessarily agreed with your points. I also appreciate Thor's similar catching up posts.

I actually had a somewhat townish view of SSBF and ML, so I'm still pondering your observations. I'm just super glad you provided them, it's just the sort of thing I want from a replacement. There interactions could certainly be scum distancing, and a flip of SSBF would further establish it. We're not getting an SSBF flip today, we're too close to deadline and he is on too many people's town list.

[LimMePls]

Mina's last post is good enough for me. I'm not going to an extended deadline with a no lynch. We can deal with CMAR or his replacement tomorrow. Mina, can you please post the links to the CMAR games you are reading of his, I'd like to read those.

Unvote
Vote: Raivann

That's L-1. It'll have to be a really good claim to save you Raivann, so lets hear it.

I'd really like to understand what Dripp is doing voting Budja. With ~48 hours to deadline that seems like a completely wasted vote. Something I wouldn't expect from Dripp, based on my read so far.

[LimMePls]

Unvote
Vote: RichardGHP

If we have an every night Vig, we don't need a one-shot vig enabler. Who do I believe more... well given my wall-o-case earlier...

[LimMePls]

I'm not sure Lord Beric does make perfect sense as a vig, but it doesn't matter, because I'm inclined to believe that in this game scum have been provided with fakeclaims.

Lord Beric makes perfect sense as a vig.

**SPOILER ALERT**
At this point in time (ACOK) Beric had already been ambushed by Ser Gregor, died and made undead, and was now conducting raids as the leader of the "Brotherhood Without Banners". He and his followers were killing those they saw as evil doers in the name of the dead King Robert, but without the King's direct permission (you know, cause he's dead). They were by definition vigilantes, and Beric was their leader. If Beric doesn't fit the definition of a vigilante in Westeros, I dunno who does.
**END SPOILER**

You strke me as someone who was familiar with the source material, so I find it odd that you doubt this.

That being said, yes we must assume the scum have fake claims, and yes Raivann could have concocted this story because he seems to be familiar with the source material (note his fake day kill claim in the mini). However, given his play contrasted to Richards, plus the fact that Richard is claiming to enable a 1-shot vig while Raivann is claiming to be a full time vig, and it seems really clear to me that Richard's claim is bogus.

[LimMePls]

Beric Dondarrion,

Innocent Aligned

My bolding. Something that was missing from Richard's claim, I'd like to point out.

[LimMePls]

HOLY SHIT! WAITING FOR ANSWERS TO SERIOUSLY IMPORTANT QUESTIONS NOW!

[LimMePls]

The irony here is palatable. I note that you haven’t posted for two days but managed to respond to Raivann’s claim in 7 minutes. Has nothing else that’s happened since your last post been worth mentioning?

It is clear that Richard is lurking in this thread. Add this to the whole mountain of reasons he is scum, and his complete unwillingness to do anything helpful with the town. Even if there wasn't a fairly large number of reasons to lynch him, he'd still be a good lynch because he refuses to contribute. If nothing else we wouldn't have to go round and round every day about Richard scum. His claim is provable... by lynching him.

As far as I'm concerned CMAR can diaf too. His "oh ya I forgot about this thread" post after the server change followed by his most recent all caps post is simply laughable. IMO CMAR and Richard need to die, one by lynch and the other by vig.

[LimMePls]

^^This.

[LimMePls]

Im thinking we lynch richard for a win-win. If he is scum, yay. If he is telling truth, vig blows someone like CMAR up

Good point. The only question is, can we get 14 votes on Richard in time? I don't want the day to end on No Lynch, but if the Richardwagon picks up I'll hop on.

It's gotta start somewhere. Be a man (woman?) and help us get it going. Sitting around waiting for it to happen will never make it happen.

[LimMePls]

How can anyone be seriously talking about lynching someone other than CMAR after his last post?

Really?

Like, if he had actually made

another

post after his alleged "re-reading" and that post contained a decent claim and some semblance of Townish thought,

maybe

. But here we are, hours later and...nothing? And people want to push

more

for Richard?

CMAR can die too.

[LimMePls]

That being said, yes we must assume the scum have fake claims

Why must we?

Because it would be foolish to blindly accept every claim given. The best position is a skeptical position. What is the alternative?

[LimMePls]

I'm not sure I really buy this answer. Being foolish and blindly accepting claims is irrelevant to the assumption that the moderator provided fake names to scum.

There are two possibilities: Scum have fake claims and scum do not have fake claims. If they do not have them, then believing they might only makes us look skeptically at claims. This isn't hurtful. If they do have them but we operate from an assumption that they don't, this could be disasterous. The only logical position to hold is to assume fake claims.

If that still isn't good enough, well the scum in the AGoT mini had them. No reason to assume differently here.

I don't want to spend our last ~12 hours arguing about this, but are there ever any theme games like this that don't have scum fake claims? Aren't they kind of mandatory to prevent mass name claims from breaking the game?

I support the Richard lynch because if we leave him around we're just going to have to argue about this every day. If he showed absolutely any sign of being pro-town I'd feel differently, but he shows every intention of playing scummy for the rest of the game and hiding behind his claim. I support the CMAR wagon as well. I will be watching this thread closely, and if it is between a no lynch and CMAR, I will move to CMAR.

[LimMePls]

The alternative, of course, is that Raivann made it up - that the scum don't get fakeclaims, only fake

names

, like in the mini (unlike what you said - this is the "third" possibility). A fakeclaim assumption means that lying in a claim simply involves cutting and pasting what a mod wrote, and I doubt Eddard would be bastard enough to give fakeclaims that contradict actual townie roles; but if scum are given names and have to come up with their own roles, we can look for contradictions.
The fact that you leap to this conclusion is (mildly) concerning to me; I do understand your point, though.

Oh, when I said fakeclaims I only meant fake names. I was unaware that mods give out full fake claims. Do mods actually do that? The only fake claims I've seen in any games I've read or played in have been just a name. I guess it is conceivable that they only have fake names, that is what I meant.

[LimMePls]

Also, I haven't discounted putting my vote back on Raivann. Claiming and then buggering off is scummy,

especially

when people start looking for a new lynch.

Then you should feel comfortable voting Richard, cause that is exactly what he did, only he's been doing it for like a week or two now, not just in one day. He is the definition of claiming and then buggering off.

[LimMePls]

@MOD: Can we get a vote count and precise ETA to deadline? Is the countdown timer on page 1 still valid given the extension to the deadline?

The original Day 1 post's timer was not, but now is, correct.

[LimMePls]

Something about Percy is wierding me out but I don't know what.
Bleh, look into it later.

His inconsistency about claimers vanishing and the two role claims in general is weirding me out. He says that Raivann claiming today and then "buggering off" is scummy and might be a reason to keep his vote on Raivann, but Richard claims like two weeks ago and "buggers off" ever since then, but he says we shouldn't lynch Richard because his claim is provable. Isn't a vig claim from Raivann provable too?

[LimMePls]

^^Just ISO'd Percy and I'm wrong, he wasn't the one that said we shouldn't lynch Richard because his claim was unprovable. He said that we shouldn't lynch him because if Loras is his scum buddy, then his claim deprived his scum buddy of his safe claim. This is still a good point.

My concern about his inconsistency on claimers who "bugger off" is still valid though.

[LimMePls]

CMAR is a dirty liar who needs to be lynched. I will hammer as well if we don't have a believable claim by this afternoon. Nothing irritates me more than his all caps post yesterday followed by... absolutely nothing.

[LimMePls]

Sigh, I should replace out, but whatever, I'll claim
I am Jon Umber, Innocent Alligned, or as my role flavor hints at and I breadcrumbed earlier, Greatjon BADASS aligned - I am a bulletproof hence why I tried to lead town at the beginning and act like a protown macho but was epicly foiled by Richard who really pissed me off. So yeah, my role PM consists of my vote, my kill immunity, and my win con. Oh, and apparently when wolves bite my fingers, I just laugh in their face? Idk

You make me sick. You couldn't have posted this instead of your all caps post yesterday. You'll inaugurate my "list of players to avoid".

Please everyone for the love of GOD get on the Richard wagon. It is really the only logical wagon IMO.

I would not be upset if someone hammers CMAR anyways.

[LimMePls]

And who's Scum?

**JEOPARDY THEME**

[LimMePls]

**JEOPARDY THEME ENDS**

Well CMAR, what is your answer?

My scumbuddies of course Lemme tell ya about it, you know the ones I was apologizing to

*BUZZER*

Ooh, I'm sorry that's incorrect. What we were looking for was some actual participation and useful contribution to the town. Tell him what he's won.

Well Alex, he's won himself a beautiful LMP HAMMER!

As soon as Mina is done posting her wall, you are toast.

[LimMePls]

Unvote
Vote: CMAR

[LimMePls]

^^ not ending in a NL, and there is no other alternative. Timer is running out. I waited on Mina's wall o post, then I hammered, as promised.

[LimMePls]

I really don't care for your play anyway actually, not my fault my life has some unexpected turns.

A common courtesy is to replace out if life gives you unexpected turns. That's what everyone else does. Showing up every few days with an excuse and a claim you are going to start participating again, only to not do so is rude and inconsiderate to the rest of us.

[LimMePls]

Now we need to look for connections between Raivann and other people.

Let's start with a

Vote: danakillsu

.
Raivann flipping

Godfather

gives my case much more weight than it needs for dana to go straight to the gallows.
dana is scum, who tried his hardest to derail the Raivann wagon yesterday.
The Budja/Kleedrac slot flipping town is just icing.

I am going re-read the Hayker/CSL slot, the Kinetic slot and the SSBF slot. Hell, even the vezopiraka slot. My vote will go to one of those, I think.

Vote: CSL

for now, due to the Hayker slot, the continuation of scummy playstyle by CSL, and the shenanigans towards the end of yesterday.
(Yes, I said I'd vote SSBF, but I need to re-read and get my case sorted out first.)

I'm going to go back and analyse the Kleedrac wagon, too.

Now that Loras has flipped town, I'm more inclined to believe that Richard is town, especially given that his rolename was "triggered Vengeful townie". The fact that julienvonwolfe didn't CC Richard but instead said this:

First, in a skim-read through I caught that Richard claimed Renly. I believe this claim, due to the reasons already stated by others at the time: it relies on another and can therefore be tested.

Anyways, dana is scum, let's lynch him.

Couldn't agree more.

Vote: danakillsu

[LimMePls]

Is it just me, or does anyone else get uncomfortable when someone feels the need to defend themselves by going into an account of what they were doing with their real life? I don't need to know you are going to take a shower and eat lunch before posting, I want an explanation of your actions in game. It feels almost like a type of AtE (I did/didn't do XYZ because I was busy in RL doing blah blah blah).

dana needs to lynching today, and I think SSBF needs vig'ing.

[LimMePls]

Give me one good reason to keep him around. Just one.

I'll give you two. VI is his town meta (although I can't provide links sorry). And there are much larger fish to fry (dana and you to be exact). I'd be much more convinced if you attacked someone else, but vezo reads like a scummer's dream target as he is really VI sounding. Part of it is his language barrier problem, and part of it is age (I'm guessing on this one, but I suspect Vezo is not very old).

Your case is overreaching and seems a bit desperate to me.

Unvote
Vote: SSBF

Time to die scum.

[LimMePls]

Dripp's early game play seemed really good to me. Second half of day 2 and today... not so much.

dana or SSBF need more votes ppl.

[LimMePls]

I'm bored. And SSBF is scum. So I'm going to dismantle this Vezo case he makes piece by piece. Enjoy everyone.

My case against vezokpiraka

His play has been scummy ever since near the beginning of the game. Here, I put all the pieces together to help prove that he is indeed lynch-worthy.

First of all, I want all of you to know that vezokpiraka is an experienced player, at least according to what he said over in an ongoing game, so there is no reason for his overall poor play here.

He is not an experienced player. Even if he was, you saying this with no evidence before setting up your case is complete crap. Anyone with half a brain can look at his play and see he isn't experienced. You try to set the whole tone of your argument up with this ridiculous claim of his experience, instead of letting your case do the talking for you.

The raising dilemma

I'll do that but it's not bold so it doesn't count. raise that guy.

Apprently, he's supporting to raise Benmage, but from what I can recall, he never does it under any circumstances.

He says he wants to raise someone, but he doesn't. Sounds pretty VI to me. What sinister motive is there for this?

@everyone: I think that for the first day or in some cases if we don't want to raise a hand we can raise the one who will be lynched so nobody could die because of it.

This is a horrible idea. He wanted to raise someone who would be lynched, so no one would die because of it. If we had followed his suggestion, this would be a complete waste of time and would benefit no one. This is why raising Percy was such a great idea, he is currently the strongest player here.

First, he only came up with this idea after I incorrectly suggested that we were raising a hand every time the hand died. Others pointed out that it said we would NOT raise other hands upon the hands death, and that speculation went out the window.

That thing is not useful. So we have to pick a double voter? on day 1.
If we target scum we have a double voter scum.
If we raise town we have a double voter dead.
If we raise town scum may create WIFOM and make us lynch him.

All cases equal bad for town. I still suggest raising the one we are lynching

He argues that double voting isn't really useful at all. When placed in the right hand (As this is probably the case), it can be more beneficial to town than to scum. What if Percy has his vote on two scums already? Overall, his argument is definently not convincing.

Here he actually makes a good point. double voter scum is not good, and raising someone just paints a target on them for the scum. "Hey scum, we all think this guy right here is really town, and we trust what he has to say". Even if you disagree with his conclusion that we should not raise or raise whoever we lynch, his point is still valid.

I want to be raised as the new hand.
I am playing by role can't remember who is that called.
I am the next in line for the throne raise me.

I personally call this a selfish move by him. Now yes, everyone wanted to be the double voter (Myself as well, as I did raise myself for awhile), but I really didn't like this post at all. He doesn't explain why he should be raised at all, let alone a legitimate one.

Selfish? Really? He was claiming his role (which I disagree with, but I know from previous experience with Vezo that he thinks D1 claiming is good). And no, not everyone wanted to be the double voter. I for one didn't want to be the double voter. I never self-raised, and I never suggested that others should raise me. I am town and I didn't want the double voter.

I have no idea about the books.
I have no idea if I'm next in line but it seemed like I am a royal figure more or less.

I really don't see any purpose for this comment under any circumstances. I haven't read the books, but I don't use that as an excuse for not trying in this game. On top of that, I don't really care if vezokpiraka thinks he's a royal figure or not.

Gasp! He made a comment that "you don't see any purpose for". Obv scum folks, SSBF says so.

Promise made, but never delievered

I think Cmar is scum. Will post a case sometime soon

He never made a real case on CryMeARiver, despite voting him a few times. While I did think that CryMeARiver was scummy, he defindently didn't convince me into thnking that.

Perhaps he saw everyone else's points and figured there was no reason, since he has a language barrier, to try it himself? There was plenty of evidence against CMAR, what exactly did you want from Vezo? You wanted him to make the umpteenth "please explain your unvote CMAR" post? I'm sure that would have been really helpful.

Bandwagoning and unexplained suspicions.

These are some of his worst offense in the game by far. He has done this so often, it's not even funny. Usually, it is with minimal reasoning and gives us very little to work on. First major example:

unvote
Vote Richard

Your last post is ultra scummy.

This is obvious bandwagoning. He doesn't give any explanation why he found that post scummy. None, just said that his last post at the time was scummy. Continuing:

unvote
Seems a legit claim to me. I guess the one who gets the extra kill is town. Vengeance for a scum is pretty weird.

After putting almost no effort in pushing RichardGHP, he unvotes mainly because of his claim.

Well it was this post but I consider CMAR being scumier that this.
vote CryMeARiver

Now this is where it begins to get bad. All he basically said was that he considered CryMeARiver to be scummier then RichardGHP's post that cause him to vote him. He doesn't provide any explanation whatsoever on why CryMeARiver was scummy.

unvote
Vote mikujin
The amount of scuminess in your posts is overwhemling

Once again, he gave absolutely no reason why he found a person scummy. While it might been Mikujin's 2nd vote on him, it defindently sounds like he's trying to leech off MagnaofIllusion's reason for voting him.

I will /barn that. This is what I told you/ was going to tell you and forgot.

Unvote
Vote Richard

Less then three hours later, he changes his vote to RichardGHP. Gives absolutely no new reasons for voting him. The vote was completely worthless.

Kelraac made really bad responses. I don't care what you would say.
unvote
vote Keldraac

The Kleedrac bandwagon was relatively large at the time. Vezokpiraka votes for him. Unfortunently, all he said was that he made really bad responses. He doesn't say why they're bad or what responses Kleedrac made was bad.

Unvote
Vote CMAR

Same thing only CMAR wagon has more steam

This is blatant bandwagoning on a person. People should note that this is taken at the exact same time where he voted Raivann. Inconsistency much?

unvote
vote raviann

Everyone from CMAR wagon switch here. I don't want this day to end in a no lynch

vezokpiraka sounds extremely desperate for a lynch to happen here. Yes we didn't have much time for a lynch, but he could have at least given a good explanation for switching his vote to Raivann again.

I said fake claim cause I thought he was scum with CMAR. After what axel said I come to think I might be wrong.

Anyway. This is the only way to prove it.

unvote
Vote Richard

Basically, he said the only way to prove Richard's claim right was to lynch him. He is wrong in this circumstance. RichardGHP could have been Night Killed and that would have proved if his claim was right of if he was a lying scum bag. This claim is more likely true because of julienvonwolfe's death. I feel like he was trying to bandwagon RichardGHP again, hoping to kill him.

Richard wagon is not moving but this should end in a lynch
unvote
vote CMAR

His last vote of Day 1 is also horrible. He expressed dissatification of RichardGHP's wagon not moving to a lynch, so in order to ensure that, he basically makes an obvious bandwagon on CryMeARiver.

I'm gonna tackle the bandwagoning charge all at once, with one simple statement of fact. He bandwagons like crazy. I fail to see why that makes him scum. Also, you point to his unvote of Richard as somehow scummy, which is just laughable. Practically every player on that wagon unvoted. So you don't like his reasons for getting on the wagon, but you don't like him getting off the wagon either. Then you find it interesting that he votes people saying there stuff is scummy, but he doesn't say why. Yet earlier in the thread he is specifically asked if English is a second language, and he says yes. Isn't the obvious conclusion that he has a hard time explaining exactly what he sees as troublesome, and since everyone else is posting those thoughts anyways, he is just saying that he agrees and voting with them? This is my read of vezo from multiple games, one of which I know you've seen too. You trying to paint this as something lynch worthy is laughable.

Other things to note

I play like this.
I do scumhunting when I get a good read on someone. Right now richard seems the scummiest but I don't have a case on him yet

I don't like how he basically relies on meta fo his defense and doesn't really defend his action. He said that RichardGHP was the scummiest person at the time, yet he doesn't have a case on him A.K.A. suspicion without explanation.

He meant he didn't have a wall-o-case on him, just a gut read. He even says "When I get a good read on someone". Again, what is scummy about this? Many other people (who are much more eloquent because English is natural for them) comment on there gut reads all the time and you have no problem with it.

Obv fakeclaim.
You were voting to raise CMAR.
I don't want to lynch a vig now.
If CMAR flips scum raviann should be obv scum.

Someone asked who I believe scum.
I believe both of them are scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CMAR

This post is horrible. A few things I especially disliked about it.

Obv fakeclaim.

I don't want to lynch a vig now.

Major contradictions here. He said that it was an obvious fakeclaim, but on that exact same post, he said he didn't want to lynch a vigilante now.

There is no contradiction here, again it's the language barrier. If I had been writing this thought it would have been "I don't believe his claim. However, I don't want to risk lynching the vig. So, since I believe he and CMAR are scum buddies, we should lynch CMAR and if he flips scum we lynch Raivann". You may disagree with his idea, but it isn't a contradiction and it isn't a horrible post.

Someone asked who I believe scum.
I believe both of them are scum.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: CMAR

He doesn't explain his vote on CryMeARiver at all. This isn't what I call a good response to a question, plus this is bandwagoning without giving good explanations.

He does to explain his vote on CMAR. He thinks they are both scum on the same scum team, but since he allows for the possibility he is wrong, he'd rather not risk lynching the claimed vig, and instead wants to lynch his buddy. He even says plainly in this post "I believe both of them are scum."

Overall:

Give me

one

good reason to keep him around. Just

one

. To me, this person has contributed next to nothing in this game. He has been scummy all over the place and he needs to die ToDay. Unless vezokpiraka improve his game Day 2, this stance will stay.

I've already given you the reasons in my previous post. You are scum, you are taking heat, and you went for the easiest target you could find. You didn't even execute your case well, because there is nothing lynch worthy here. His votes look like bandwagons because he agrees with other people's points. He doesn't type them out a second time because of the language barrier. His points on raising, while I disagree with them, where not scummy in the least. This entire post of yours screams desperation. "Look guys, don't lynch me, look how town I am. I found scum". There is only one problem, for that to be convincing you have to actually find scum, not an easy target VI.

[LimMePls]

1. Does poisoning seem likely as a Greyjoy kill flavour? Axel has indicated it is not but I wanted other input.

Absolutely not. Think of the Greyjoy's as vikings. They'd axe you in the face, not poison you.

2. Does a ‘faked’ suicide seem likely as a Greyjoy kill flavour?

Again, no. They'd just gut you themselves. The specific character who killed themself here has a lot of flavor interactions with another character in the story that would lead me to assume (given the Hired Killer role) that someone in the game could submit a name to him each night. He could choose to accept to kill that person or refuse. If he refuses, I'm guessing he has to kill himself instead. This is specifically what happens in the story.

**SPOILER ALERT**

Jaqen H'gar owes Arya three deaths because she saved his life. She uses 2 of them for petty reasons. Finally she asks him for his help on something important. He refuses. She then says her third choice is for him to kill himself. He then agrees to help her

[LimMePls]

@Mina (Post made on June 17, 2010 at 3:32 AM) I remember one of your post where you basically made more then half of your post "skim-worthy". This was on LynchMePls. Why did you think it was "skim-worthy"? Personally, I thought that it was valueable infromation that town can work on.

Why are you bringing this up now?

@Everyone else: This wagon needs more votes.

[LimMePls]

@LynchMePls

: I understand that you think vezok represents an easy target for SSBF, but you didn't comment on Mikujin's original case. Do you actually think the case for vezok-scum is without merit?

No, I don't think it is without merit, I just think SSBF's attack on him was scum flailing trying to look town and attack the most convenient target. SSBF was coming under a lot of fire, so he needed a target to attack for town cred. The easiest one who is unlikely to be his scum buddy is vezo. His case was terribly built, and the only original parts to it (the ones Miku hadn't already mentioned) were just plain crap. The Miku parts at least had merit, although I disagree with them, and I think Vezo is more likely town than scum.

Short version: Vezo could be scum, but I think we have much bigger fish to fry, namely dana and SSBF.

[LimMePls]

Mina makes some pretty solid points against Drippereth, which I really do like. It helps establish a connection between both of them. As my connection between Raivann and other people is still in development, I need to look at Drippereth especially closely. I also like his case on CSL where he compared the connection between Raivann and CSL. It's worth a read.

Hey look, SSBF wants to change the subject from his Vezo "case" to Dripp and CSL.

Why are you bringing this up two weeks later?

Originally, like others, I skimmed it. However, I wanted to bring something to the table yesterday and even if it wasn't much, I wanted to help inform people about that comment and that there was potentially something useful to work on.[/quote]

You only "wanted to bring something to the table" because you want the attention to go anywhere but where it is right now. Bringing something useful to the table would be great, pointing out that Mina made a post that she said people could skim 2 weeks ago and that has almost nothing relevant in it, is pointless.

SSBF is obviously scum people. Can we please lynch him?

[LimMePls]

Because SSBF is town.

I LOL'd.

[LimMePls]

FOS: Richard

I want evidence to prove he's town.

o.O

Claim: Renly Baratheon

I am Robert's youngest brother. I have decided to be King, but their are currently bigger problems to attend to.

If I die,

Ser Loras

is able to perform one kill to attemp to avenge me. Therefore, I know Ser Loras is in the game. However, I do not know who (s)he is and what alignment they are. If Ser Loras dies before I do, nothing happens upon my death.

Underlined for the reading impaired.

Julienvonwolfe -

Ser Loras Tyrell

-

Innocent Aligned

- Triggered Vengeful Townie - Poisoned

What more evidence do you want?

HOS: CSL

This game is almost too easy. One of dana/SSBF/CSL need lynching (preferably SSBF, but I'll take what I can get), and if we still have a vig he should kill from the remainders.

[LimMePls]

The way I read CSL's post, "he" refers to SSBF. See full quote:

Oh, that makes a bit more sense. Still stupid. Why would you FOS someone to ask them a question? Why wouldn't you just ask it?

[LimMePls]

This game is in serious need of action.

Those not voting for SSBF or Danakillsu need to post and say why they aren't, or make a very convincing argument for why they're voting who they are. Those that aren't voting at all even more so. (Dripp I'm looking at you).

@Mina: I understand your CSL case, I think it has a lot of merit, and I know you don't want us to forget it. That said, CSL is looking very unlikely to be the lynch right now. Why not help us and get behind dana or SSBF?

In an effort to get some team cohesion going, I'm going to

Unvote
Vote: danakillsu
HOS: SSBF

[LimMePls]

We're over 2 weeks from deadline. Why so twitchy?

Well days went by with almost no new content, yet plenty of players feel its fine to sit around not voting or contributing. I see nothing wrong with asking for more activity. Do you have a problem with a more active town? Does a player asking for a more active town bother you? Why or why not?

[LimMePls]

Well, you're directly asking us to focus on two players and two players only

. What if you're scum and know that both of the two are not? Your request for us to ignore all players other than dana and SSBF is suspicious, especially this far from deadline.

But I'm not doing that at all.

Those not voting for SSBF or Danakillsu

need to post and say why they aren't, or make a very convincing argument for why they're voting who they are

.

I'm not saying anyone should focus on those two. I specifically said if they are voting someone else they make a very convincing argument for there vote.

I picked those two because they have the biggest wagons a week into the day. I'm not saying we can't discuss something else, I'm just saying if we are gonna discuss others its time for people to make those cases. I also think the participation level needs to increase.

It seems strange to me that you object so much to my request, and that you claim I said we had to vote for those two, when I clearly did not say that.

[LimMePls]

@MOD: I'm gonna be V/LA this weekend, being that it's a holiday and all

[LimMePls]

We have two weeks to the deadline. Two. WEEKS.

That doesn't mean we should twiddle our thumbs and do nothing. That DOES mean no lynch is impossible at this point.

Well, lets see, two weeks before deadline on D1 we had already wagonned Richard, and then we were evaluating Kleedrac/Budja. We still had 2 weeks, but it turned out we needed all of it plus an extension to finally settle on... a mislynch. So when I ask for more participation, I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Particularly from people who aren't voting at all one week into the day. Isn't it sort of frowned upon to sit around not voting? Is there really something wrong with me stating my dissatisfaction with the lack of participation from some players?

I don't think a single player in the game has objected to the dana or SSBF wagons. You don't need my help. On the contrary, why doesn't someone look elsewhere? Everyone decided overnight that dana and SSBF are their top two suspects.

Fair enough.

I understand why dana and SSBF are getting votes, but do you think that only the VIs and poor debaters are scum while all the strong reasonable players are town? In a game with multiple factions, it's easy for scum to genuinely scumhunt.

Of course not, but can't we deal with the obv scum first? I mean SSBF literally couldn't get any scummier.

What if in LynchMePls's next post that he outright claims that he's a Mafia member of another scum alignment? Will he still be townier then all the townies in here and would that still never change?

Whoops, I stand corrected. What an absurd question.

[LimMePls]

No, you did not directly say that. But the "very convincing argument" is all about bullying people into getting onto one of those two wagons. And we are not at that point in the Day yet.

Bullying? Are you joking? I'm telling people who aren't voting that they should use there vote. I'm asking for more participation, and I'm saying that if they have a logical reason to be on a wagon other than the two obv scum that they present a case to us so we can evaluate it.

What does "we're not at that point in the day yet" even mean? At what point in the day is it no longer acceptable for people to be not voting? Seems to me like 1 week in is pretty late to be holding on to your vote. Please inform me when it's acceptable for me to ask non-voters to please use there votes. Cause I'll do it then. I see nothing wrong with my asking for participation, or the way in which I asked for it. SSBF and dana are obv scum. If people aren't voting them, then I say they should tell us why. If they have a better candidate, then I say now is the time to provide it.

I honestly don't understand what the problem is with my post, and you defending the players who aren't voting seems really strange to me. I dunno about everyone else, but I want participation from people who aren't voting 1 week into the day. My asking for them on SSBF or dana is for obvious reasons (they are scum). If those people want to put them somewhere else, then feel free, but please tell us why, so we can start discussing it. I do not believe that 2 weeks till deadline is too early to say that.

[LimMePls]

@all
Any thoughts on the post above? I don't really get it.

It's fluff from the source material.

[LimMePls]

We have to assume after Raivann's claim that the mod is giving out full fake claims. Beric was a perfect flavor fit for vig. I'm not so sure about the Blackfish being a jailor though. I can't really think of anyone he has jailed personally, except the Kingslayer, but that wasn't really him doing it, it was more Robb, Edmure, ect. I'm not sure what to make of this claim yet.

[LimMePls]

LynchMePls is more town than all the players I've ever declared to be townies. And that's never going to change. So he gets the green.

LynchMePls is scum. He hops on the RichardGHP wagon shortly after 2 different posts saying he believes RichardGHP's claim.

This is untrue. I was on the Richard wagon, he claimed, and I unvoted. Then later, after a reread, I built a case that Richard was lying and voted him again. Then others, (Percy IIRC) mentioned that Richard's claim was provable, and would be a bad claim for scum, so I unvoted. Then when we got close to deadline, I again pushed Richard as the best lynch of the day.

He hops on the Raivann wagon at the very tail end when it was almost certain Raivann was going to be the lynch and then goes back to RichardGHP as fast as possible (with his very next post).

This is true. It was time to get a lynch, and people were unconvinced by my Richard-CMAR-Axelrod case (which makes sense, because as we know now I was clearly wrong). So I voted Raivann, and yes at the end of the wagon. When he made the vig claim, I unvoted, and went back to Richard because of the two of them, Raivann's claim seemed better to me. I stated all of this at the time. I fail to see why this is scummy. You seem to leave out the fact that we were under a serious time crunch at this point, so my moving around a lot was born of necessity if we wanted to get a lynch that day.

LynchMePls also works with Drippereth to fight the Raivann wagon directly here. In fact, rereading LMP's ISO with regards to Drippereth is very interesting overall. I recommend it to everyone.

I "work" with Drippereth only in the sense that we're both town and we're both hunting scum. At the time of that post I was of the mind that Kleedrac/Budja was scum, so clearly I'm going to disagree with people not voting those I see as scum. If quoting Dripp and saying "this" is me "working" with him, then I'm guilty. By this logic I've also apparently "worked" with Percy, Mina, Cow, and others. I'd also like to point out that I clearly admitted a town read of Dripp D1, I even suggested we should raise Dripp. That's because I think Dripp is town.

@Unsight: Is it possible that I have a connection with Dripp because I have a town read of them, and thus agree with a lot of what they say? Why does a connection to Dripp make me scum?

[LimMePls]

There are Gates that lead up to the Eyrie. Brynden Tully was a Knight of the Gate when he left Riverrun after he argued with his brother Hoster. This is when he took the name "Blackfish".

dana's claim fits fluff wise (although I'm not sure about the jailor bit). However Raivann's claim was great fluff wise too. I don't think we can unvote people based on the flavor of their claim, the scum appear to be getting full fake claims.

[LimMePls]

Surely that only makes sense to the scum, who probably knew you were wrong. People thought you were wrong but they didn't have the information we have now, so how does it make sense that they were unconvinced then? It makes sense that people are unconvinced by a poor case. I don't understand how this makes sense to you if you thought it was a good case.

The part in parentheses was meant in hind sight. Obviously at the time I thought it was a good case and I wanted everyone to believe me. I'm just saying that I turned out to be wrong.

And you know this how?

Gut. I could be wrong. The point I'm making is that I believe Dripp is town based on my read, so if I appear to be "working" with Dripp that is why, not because we're scum.

[LimMePls]

@LynchMe – If you have answered my question regarding Vezo and Meta at 955 please disregard the following –

You state that Vezo is playing to his Town meta. Does he have a scum meta? If not how can you justify ruling out Vezo’s quite frankly horrible play based on an incomplete meta set?

This is a good question. I've only seen his town play. It is possible this is how he plays as scum too. As I've said before when asked about vezo, the case against him isn't totally without merit. My feeling of town VI is based on my gut plus my observations of his town play. I'm certainly open to the possibility of vezo-scum. What I take exception to is SSBF's case on him, it was pretty much complete crap.

[LimMePls]

@LynchMe: I agree that the non-voters suck, but you seemed to have a problem with me voting for someone who wasn't SSBF or dana. You were telling me to vote for one of them so that we'd have more cohesion. What's the reason for the backtrack?

You made a good counter argument. What am I supposed to do, keep saying something even when people point out I'm wrong? When I made that post originally I was basically just frustrated at the lack of votes on the obv scum. I included that section to you because, while I understand your CSL case, I thought you agreed with the SSBF and dana cases, so you not wanting to particiapte in either of those wagons seems weird to me.

While we're on the subject, what do you make of the SSBF and dana wagons? What about the dana claim? Do you still think CSL is a better lynch? On a scale of 1 to 10 (10 being most scummy) could you rate CSL, dana, and SSBF?

[LimMePls]

I'm not sure what to make of the L-10 claim. Scum tell? GG Mina, I may be switching votes here soon.

@Dripp: You still aren't voting. WTF? Pretty glad we didn't make you the hand now. I asked why you weren't voting days ago, and you still aren't. Why the hesitation in voting? You didn't seem all that shy about it D1.

[LimMePls]

Nope, other than you shouldn't have even claimed at all. Pre-emptively addressing that statement doesn't make it any less valid, either.

Since I haven't read the books, can we get an educated opinion in whether the claim fits flavour-wise?

It fits, but once again, the flavor is always going to fit, it's pretty clear the scum are getting full fake claims.

[LimMePls]

Also, I was one of the ones who stabbed CSL. Fellow CSL-stabbers (suprising he got majority when he's only on two votes...), stand forth and be counted!

I stabbed CSL. If he was lying, we could nullify a scum PR. If he was telling the truth, we just lose his vote for one day. Seemed pretty win win.

[LimMePls]

Also, LMP is still scum.

Also you are still wrong. I asked you a question the last time you posted about me that you still haven't answered. Please do.

[LimMePls]

**MORE NOT ANSWERING MY QUESTIONS**

How many times am I going to have to ask you to answer those questions Unsight?

[LimMePls]

**SNIP A WHOLE BUNCH OF STUFF WHERE UNSIGHT STILL DOESN'T ANSWER MY QUESTION**

Still waiting. Do you or do you not admit that if you spot a connection between me and Dripp, it could be because I agree with what they are saying and thus think they are town. Why does my having agree with Dripp make me scum? Even if Dripp is scum, is it not possible I have a misread.

Then exactly how does a LMP lynch provide more information than a Drip lynch? You just have stated that you can see Drip as being linked to either SSBF (and by extension MLock) or to Raivann (and by extension Dana and / or LMP). And why if you are linking dana and LMP are you not voting for dana which is a viable lynch at this stage?

I don’t see any rational argument for why you keep dancing away from Drip as the best source of information based on the links you posted above. Are you intimidated by Drip and afraid to challenge them?

This post is made of win. I'm starting to think Unsight is trying to distance from Dripp.

[LimMePls]

Can we draw any conclusions from the fact that dana has been L-2 for so long? Seems like it might mean he is more likely to be scum and his partners aren't bussing? Is this bad logic? Seems like opportunistic scum would find a reason to jump on board. Could all the scum already be on the wagon? Seems highly unlikely.

In other news Dripp is really weirding me out. And Unisght has avoided my question so many times I'm not going to bother asking anymore.

[LimMePls]

xvart, I've already said that I have nothing more to say until dana is lynched.

You had something to say before?

[LimMePls]

@LynchMePls - there are a couple possibilities for the lack of the wagon reaching takeoff, and they do not all end in dana being scum.

That's what I figured, but I thought I'd ask.

I'll elevate Drip into my scum listings from my anti-town listings. I'd had issues earlier but with the attack on me was debating if I was just feeling some OMGUS energy and turning it into scum energy in my own head. If others are feeling it then I agree, I'd still put the holy trinity of dana, CSL, and SSBF ahead of Drip and in that order. Drip is ahead of Macavity Lock and I am unclear of the relation with Benmage on my list, so I'll blob them together and call them equally scummy to me.

I agree with almost all of this. Right now my scum reads would be:

dana
SSBF
CSL
Macavity
Benmage

I'm not ready to call Dripp scum *yet*, I had a really REALLY strong town read D1, and I'm still a bit bewildered at the change in play. I'm beginning to wonder if we've pretty much sussed out all the scum from their team, and they are afraid of making a move and getting linked to them. Also the promised case on Percy that never came seems like it might have some scum motivations. Take a strong stand against the Hand to set yourself up for WIFOM "Would I have been so anti-Percy if I were scum?"

[LimMePls]

For those who are leaning Vezo scum, I'd like to call your attention to the three people voting him:

Vezipiraka (3) -

Danakillsu, Drippereth, MacavityLock

Pretty sure 2 of those 3 are scum, and the other very well could be too. Just saying. Of course they could be on different scum teams, but I was just rereading the day when I noticed this.

[LimMePls]

What do you mean it doesn't say anything? Three scummy/leaning-scummy players all voting another player says nothing? I think its something to note. Maybe everyone but me already saw this, but no one mentioned it.

Isn't it interesting that there are 3 scummy/leaning-scummy players on Vezo and no strong town reads? Doesn't that say something about the validity of a Vezo wagon? Doesn't it say something about those voting Vezo anyways?

[LimMePls]

What happened to this game?

[LimMePls]

Drippereth, MacavityLock, Super Smash Bros. Fan and CSL have been prodded

Checking for others now, also still no replacement. All potential replacements have gone dry soooo hopefully I'll find someone soon.

There are at minimum 2 scum in this group, most likely 3, and quite possibly all 4.

Right now my scum reads would be:
Benmage

For what reasoning?

It's just been a general uneasiness since the start of the game, just small things adding up. You had some exchanges with Rifka and Mina that I thought you came off the worse in, you admit to lurking, you don't stab CSL but you refuse to answer the question of who you did stab. On the plus side, if Dripp does flip scum, you were one of the earliest calling that, and you seem to be improving in the lurking. Your latest content was all useful. I'm least certain of you in my reads, hence you being at the bottom.

[LimMePls]

It's just been a general uneasiness since the start of the game

The start... I thought I started strong.

I disagree.

just small things adding up. You had some exchanges with Rifka and Mina that I thought you came off the worse in

Can you be a bit more specific than just small things, please. Also what aspects of my exchange with Rifka did you like about Rifka and dislike about me.

If I have the time I'd be happy to. I'm not doing that now. I just have in my notes that you were arguing and I sided more with Mina/Rifka. I'd have to go back and re-read the exchange.

you admit to lurking

In jest, do you believe I am guilty of the crime?

When you said it you were just coming back from a bit of lurking, yes. You have since improved, but it doesn't change the fact that for awhile you were lurking, and you even admitted to it. That is my recollection of events.

you don't stab CSL but you refuse to answer the question of who you did stab.

In what ways do you think there is an anti-town motive in not stating who I stabbed? Surely as scum to avoid unnecessary confrontation I could’ve named anyone or even simply CSL. What anti-town reasoning do I have to hide it? Or do you think I have to hide it?

I think holding information back from the town is scummy. I also happen to know that you agree with that view. I see no reason why you shouldn't share this information. You said you didn't stab CSL. The natural follow-up question is "who did you stab", and rather than provide that information, you refuse. Presumably the players we stabbed are people we have scum reads on. So you are essentially refusing to state who you saw scummy enough to stab. Your refusal to answer seems scummy to me. As for the fact that you could lie about it, that is true, but if you have "nothing to hide" as you claim, why be so "obstinate" (see I can use that word too). The only reason I can see for refusing to answer the question is so that you don't get locked into a scum read on someone.

[LimMePls]

Your exchange with Cow is reinforcing my scum read Benmage. You really don't think SSBF is scummy?

[LimMePls]

Forgot to mention this in my last post. I was /prodded.

@RichardGHP: We're close to the deadline, but not that close where his vote decides whenever or not we get a lynch or not. We have some time left to find scums.

You're next SSBF. So start packing your bags.

[LimMePls]

you don't stab CSL but you refuse to answer the question of who you did stab.

In what ways do you think there is an anti-town motive in not stating who I stabbed? Surely as scum to avoid unnecessary confrontation I could’ve named anyone or even simply CSL. What anti-town reasoning do I have to hide it? Or do you think I have to hide it?

I think holding information back from the town is scummy. I also happen to know that you agree with that view. I see no reason why you shouldn't share this information. You said you didn't stab CSL. The natural follow-up question is "who did you stab", and rather than provide that information, you refuse. Presumably the players we stabbed are people we have scum reads on. So you are essentially refusing to state who you saw scummy enough to stab. Your refusal to answer seems scummy to me. As for the fact that you could lie about it, that is true, but if you have "nothing to hide" as you claim, why be so "obstinate" (see I can use that word too).

The only reason I can see for refusing to answer the question is so that you don't get locked into a scum read on someone.

The last line is all we need to concern ourselves with. This is true. I thought I said something along these lines or hinted at it, if not mybad. It's someone I feel is scummy, potentially not as flagrant or as believed by others to be scummy but a work in progress for me. I don't feel like showing my hand without first stacking the deck.

Since we can now agree that the reason is to hide a potential scum read of mine. How scummy of a move by me to withhold this do you think it is?

You completely ignore the fact that withholding information is IN YOUR OWN OPINION scummy. Your continued dodging of the issue is scummy. As I said before, the chief scum motivation for not saying this is to keep from locking yourself down. This happens to also be the reason you want to not share this information. That is scummy.

Your nit-picking my words "awhile" and "a bit" is really lame. And your "you're due for an ISO" doesn't scare me, feel free.

[LimMePls]

ARGH! I hate deadlines!

There's lots of stuff I want to comment on, but you know what?

Vote: vezokpiraka

This vote is bad. Do you honestly think a Vezo wagon is going to go anywhere this close to deadline? Did you even look at who is on that wagon? What has changed between your CSL crusade and this to make you vote Vezo? This vote stinks. I now feel much worse about you than I did at the end of D1.

[LimMePls]

I have to leave, and there's another game I'm supposed to catch up on, but I can't resist.

ARGH! I hate deadlines!

There's lots of stuff I want to comment on, but you know what?

Vote: vezokpiraka

This vote is bad. Do you honestly think a Vezo wagon is going to go anywhere this close to deadline? Did you even look at who is on that wagon? What has changed between your CSL crusade and this to make you vote Vezo? This vote stinks. I now feel much worse about you than I did at the end of D1.

I'm trying very hard not to be REALLY snarky right now.

If you think a vezo wagon isn't going to go anywhere, then do you think a CSL wagon was MORE likely to go somewhere? My vote has been on CSL all day. I've been repeating over and over just why CSL is scummy. Clearly, it hasn't helped.

Bullshit. We stabbed him almost completely because of your case (granted his VT claim helped out). What more do you want from us? To all blindly follow to CSL? We're not doing it, dana is massively scummier, and I think SSBF is as well.

Now that there's a day left and people are already going, "Gee, I'm not that sure that dana is scum, but you know, there's no time left, so guess there's no choice!", I'm trying my second suspect. Because I'm fucking tired of watching players whose cases I'm lukewarm on get lynched at deadline. Percy obviously won't keep his vote on CSL if it's a choice between CSL and dana. A bunch of people have mentioned they suspect vezo. If I vote him, it's four on the wagon instead of three. It's worth a try.

(That said, to be honest, I've been debating moving my vote to vezo since his slip, because vezo's backtrack sounds like a lie, whereas CSL

could

just be a terrible town player. I skimmed through some of CSL's meta recently, and although I didn't pick up any scum-specific tells, he did play badly in both his town and scum game. Some of CSL's reaction to his stabbing--seeming totally surprised that someone would stab him because he's a VT, for example--actually sounds genuine.)

Obviously, I noticed who was on the vezo wagon:

Yes, I know the players on his wagon are horrible (although I've actually liked MacavityLock overall), but they might just be from the other team.

Do you disagree that vezo's backtrack is scummy, LynchMePls? Or are you saying it IS scummy, but I shouldn't vote for him because 1) his lynch totally isn't viable, and 2) you suspect the people on his wagon, so HOW DARE anyone go against your opinion that it's a proven fact that Drippereth, MacavityLock and Dana are all scum?

Vezo is for vigging. There is 0 chance vezo makes it to end game. Vezo is CLEARLY not today's lynch. I honestly can't think of a single worst place for your vote right now.

You'd have a point if you thought I was dana's buddy and was averting the lynch elsewhere.

I didn't think this before, but I'm not discounting it now. I really don't understand the refusal to vote dana. He is clearly scum, you successfully convinced enough of us to stab CSL, but that still isn't good enough for you apparently. You wanted us to lynch CSL after stabbing him? That seems pretty ridiculous. Vezo is a terrible vote, and I'm calling you out on it.

But apparently, my vote is scummy because my vezo vote won't accomplish anything. Do you just think I just forgot that I said I have a scum read on CSL?

Look. I don't suspect you for reasons you already know, but to be honest, I have not liked much of your reasoning for your suspicions throughout this game. I find you act with too much certainty that certain players are scum and then base your other reads on reactions to those players.

Speaking of which, whatever happened to your Axelrod suspicions? Before you said that if one of CMAR, Richard, and Axel wasn't scum, you'd eat your hat. But since then, you seem to have completely ignored him. He didn't even make your most recent list of scumreads.

For the record, I'd move to SSBF now if it's a choice between him and dana, because I hate his most recent posts.

What exactly makes you feel better about voting Vezo than SSBF? Why didn't you move your vote to SSBF, which IMO is the only possible other wagon for today. Did you really think your Vezo vote would convince us to leave our dana wagon with less than 48 hours to go? That's my biggest problem with your Vezo vote, it is WAY late. And to top it off, you didn't like it when I was prodding people into action earlier in the day. Well, now, here we are nearing deadline and you move your vote to Vezo.

As for Axelrod, his posting today has been better than yesterday, and I don't think he is nearly as important a lynch as dana, SSBF, MacCavity and maybe even Dripp.

[LimMePls]

What I was so peeved about, that we didn't lynch Mac on Town lylo. I guess my frustration was taken too far, and then, well, that happened.

The way town played was unforgivable...

SHUT UP! YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO TALK ABOUT BAD TOWN PLAY.

Thanks to the game mods, you both did a really great job. The flavor was awesome, the events were cool (even if I only got to participate in 2 of them) and I think the balance was mostly right, maybe even slightly town tilted (which just makes this town loss even more unbelievable).

I am simply stunned that we lost this game. Simply stunned. I have a really deep rage right now at a number of players.

IMO CSL should be site banned for that town self hammer. Absolutely unforgivable.

IMO Richard should be avoided at all costs. Confirmed town from D2 and lives to D6(7?) and does absolutely NOTHING to help this town win. While being a dick about it, with posts like "haha, I should have been prodded but I wasn't". What a complete jerk.

I'm happy with my play this game, except for my D1 scum team case against Richard-Axel-CMAR, all three of which flipped town. That said I succeeded in inviting 4 townies to the KG, and the 2 scum I did felt more like I forced myself to do them than picked them. I wanted the hand in the QT to try and get a better read of him, and I wanted the "vig" in so we could direct his kills. At various points D1 I had xvart/Mac/MoI on my invitee list and removed all of them, while adding Cow and Mina late in D1.

Grats to the scum teams. In particular to Mac. Being able to convince the town to not lynch you when you've been tracked to a night kill is remarkable. Fooling them the second time is just astonishing. Well played.

[LimMePls]

@Mods:

I'd love to see all the night actions when possible.

[LimMePls]

I seen DMSIS do worse, and he's still playing.

Everybody has their BAD BAD games in some point or another, have you had yours yet?

Oh, I see, so as long as some other idiot is running around unbanned, you should be too? Nice defense. You played against the spirit of the game and worked directly opposite of your town role. I'd even forgive it if you'd been playing pro-town up until then and just got really frustrated and in a moment of rage you did it, but no you played the entire game terribly and then have the nerve to come in here and say "Town played terrible". You are shameless, which is pathetic.

No, I haven't ever self-hammered as town, and no I won't "have mine".

[LimMePls]

Things that upset me about this game:

- I totally misread LMP's connections.

Despite your attacks on me D2 (or perhaps because of them) I knew you were town. That's why I kept trying to hint that I may have connections with people and not be scum. I was hoping you might pick up that I was hinting we were masons, and that was why we were connected. I knew you were town because you spotted the connections and you pushed them. If you were scum you'd spot the connection and say nothing and NK instead. I think you played a really good game, only like you mentioned you didn't push hard enough to show that Mac must be scum until right at the very end, when people saw it as more of a defense than an attack.

[LimMePls]

Actually, LMP should be warned for his asshole-like behavior postgame. That's just not sportsmanlike.

As I said, you are shameless. You get to screw around and play horribly (act scum the whole game, quicklynch town doc, and self-hammer) and lose us the game, and then have the gall to come in here and A) point the finger at others and B) act offended when I call you on it. You're clearly very immature, so that's all I'll have to say on the subject.

[LimMePls]

So, thanks CSL?

This coming from scum pretty much sums up this game.

[LimMePls]

Oh, LMP, didn't get a chance to say, you did play very well, especially for someone new. I was impressed, and am even more so now that I got a chance to read the Kingsguard thread. We killed you for a reason :}

Thanks Mac.

Throughout D1 I had a list of 5 people I was going to invite to the King's Guard, and for the first half of the day you were on there. Then you when I started rereading, I remember getting some bad vibes, and when Mina and I got into an argument, I ended up thinking she was town, and you got bumped for her slot. Your play this game was fantastic. That fakeclaim was brilliant. I think the list went through like 10-15 different configurations, and you were easily on half of them, before I finally dropped you. You should be really proud of your play not just the fake claim, but the whole game.

[LimMePls]

I'm pissed I didn't make the kingsguard.

Sorry Benmage, IIRC this was my first experience with you, and your argument with Rifka (again, IIRC) made me unsure about you. I was still new, and your aggressiveness put me off a bit.

[LimMePls]

I'm pissed I didn't make the kingsguard.

Sorry Benmage, IIRC this was my first experience with you, and your argument with Rifka (again, IIRC) made me unsure about you. I was still new, and your aggressiveness put me off a bit.

You owe me a neighbor/masonizing

Next time I've got 6 invites to a mason group, I'll send you two. Deal?

[LimMePls]

I so picked Mac and Rai day one. I also picked SSBF as antitown. So yes, my theory was bullshit and I was wrong about Dripp but bugger it, damn it all to hell, fuck fuck fuck fuckity fuck!

Oh, right, I forgot about your "one of every team" scum team. Sorry we had to kill you for it :}

You know, I'd be interested in hearing if any unspoiled spectators were swayed by Mac's pleas at any point, or if they were banging their heads against the wall in disgust the whole time.

I'd be interested to hear this too.

Another fun Day 1 catch:

SSBF: Scummy, due to apologizing for what is unnecessary to apologize for.
Magna: Scummier, due to latching on to "parroting" without looking at context, attempting an easy dig.

----

Self-serving note: Anyone who wants to show support for me getting the awesome title "Impin' Ain't Easy" should go to the Title Fairy thread :}

I'll support that. Great title for you. Where is the thread?

[LimMePls]

Yeah more than likely.

Lol @ no one saying Dany (b/c she's uninteresting!)

Slaver's Bay is the best damn scene in the whole book. The Red Wedding is more emotional, but When Dany pwns those noobs hardcore it made me laugh so hard.

[LimMePls]

Oh, and we can't forget the duel between the Red Viper and Ser Gregor